What you're hoping for and how gamers play are probably not the same thing.
As the NW devs learned the hard way.
This is true and thats why i'm basing my current recommendation on wow classic and New World experiances. I believe (see the replies above this one) that a tag for rp servers will ultimately be beneficial for the game
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2021
I think the WoW RP tag is actually enforced by the devs.
It's only been one week of NW RP servers and those are all full, AFAIK.
Well NW launched with to few servers all of the starting servers are to full. doesn't have anything to do with rp or not. Makes you wonder how AoC will launch. I get the idea that AoC will utilize the old GM system for servers, and that might make upscaling a bit difficult
They do not. contradict . The game will be exactly the same, except people with a similar mindset will choose for that server, and those who do not want to rp will not choose it. As for additional rules their don't have to be any. the communities on the rp server will make their own rules.
Either the servers are the same, in which case there are no RP specific rules - or they have RP specific rules and as such are not the same.
If you pick one and state that you want it, cool, we can have a conversation.
If you just jump between each of them at will/your convenience, obviously no worthwhile discussion can take place.
If Intrepid have RP servers and enforce a specific ruleset on them, then players on those servers would have every right to expect those rules be enforced. Now we need to determine what those rules are - is it all RP, all the time? Is it just no specific anti-RP activities? Then this needs to be squared with Intrepids desire for what essentially amounts to troll behavior in game - people can play the villain in Ashes, and Intrepid not only encourage it, but essentially require it. That villain need not only be a villain in terms of RP, but also in terms of the player behind the character. RP servers where rules are enforced would likely see this be lost, and may even see a total lack of players even willing to be the villain on RP servers for fear of report-positive people reporting them for behavior that Intrepid essentially require for the game to function.
Then you have the cost of enforcing these additional rules - which is not insignificant. In order for your suggestion to be based on specific rules, this cost needs to be accounted for in some way.
Or you could go with no specific rules for RP servers. if this is the case, what is the difference between this and a player initiative RP server? Don't say that an RP tag on a server will attract those wanting to RP and turn away those that don't - because it absolutely, 100% will not. If there were a designated RP server and no rules, my guild and I would happily roll there, as ruining some ERP party by slaughtering all participants just sounds like a whole bunch of fun.
So far, you have said you'd like a thing, and said that you would like it based on some things that happened in other games that are not even remotely comparable to Ashes (comparing WoW original release to an MMO releasing now is about the same as comparing a car from the 1930's to one made now - different technology, different pace, different purpose, different user mindset, different things will happen).
You haven't actually put forward a good argument as to why Intrepid should backtrack on what they have said, why the value of them doing that would outweigh the value of them sticking to their word.
I think you are misguided of what most rp ers want. Namely emersion and interaction. It boils down to those two things. As for the rules that are "needed" for that? Personally it would be only 2 rules:
1) Use fantasy / lore appropiate character and guild names
2) Respect other peoples Rp
Names that would be fitting in the world of ashes. Eg. nobody is going to name their child "733t ma93" or "asgagaeg" or any other kind of just a bunch of random letters. Things like that break or add to the immersion.
Second you'd want people to be respectfull towards other rp ers. You want to create a guild that goes around and slaughter ERP ers? fine! do that, but have in your or your guild description some story why your doing that. You'll probably build notiatry for doing so, but its up on the individual if they like your actions or not. If you keep the ganking to a reasonable level (say betwen 5-10 times per encounter) It shouldn't be reportable. Although you'd probabaly build corruption quite fast. But that can lead to more rp moments for other groups that either start protecting "The slayer of indecency" or hunt the " Vile murderer"
You can choose who you affiliate yourself with (or create a guild yourself) and thus choose the rules. Some guilds will hard enforce RP all the time, some will not,
On an rp server preparations for guild wars would sometimes go differently while in other servers the alliances are forged out of game in comms like discord, on an rp server they might be forged in character in a specific location.
I've been rp ing in different games for a long time, but i notice the difference between games that have dedicated rp servers and those that don't. On those that do my immersion is higher due to "normal" names. People are generally more respectfull when you rp.
on servers that don't, you get your occasional whisper of "nerd", "geek", or worse. You get disrespected more, and with some names your immersion is less.
So far, you have said you'd like a thing, and said that you would like it based on some things that happened in other games that are not even remotely comparable to Ashes (comparing WoW original release to an MMO releasing now is about the same as comparing a car from the 1930's to one made now - different technology, different pace, different purpose, different user mindset, different things will happen).
This is not true, If you want to use a car analogy Then wow classic would be driving a 3 year old station wagon, New world a new Golf GTI, and Ashes a new racecar that comes out in (hopefully 2 years) Thing is that those drivers (and players) will trade in their cars for the hot new racecar. And the driver (or player) will still be as good as or bad as a driver (or player) as he is now.
Second you'd want people to be respectfull towards other rp ers. You want to create a guild that goes around and slaughter ERP ers? fine! do that, but have in your or your guild description some story why your doing that.
My story is that my guild is a secret society and that our motives for our actions are our own.
Or are you saying that my RP is less valid than your RP?
All those rules seem to be is a shelter from the games PvP system. If I want to kill you 20 times in a row, the game allows me to do that and gives me a penalty for it. There should not be some artificial system on top of that to prevent me from doing so, or risk losing my account.
If you want to call me a "vile murderer", have at it, you can do that on the regular servers as well. So far, the only actual change you have talked about is PvP protection for RP'ers.
You can choose who you affiliate yourself with (or create a guild yourself) and thus choose the rules. Some guilds will hard enforce RP all the time, some will not,
On an rp server preparations for guild wars would sometimes go differently while in other servers the alliances are forged out of game in comms like discord, on an rp server they might be forged in character in a specific location.
Nothing is stopping you from doing this in general on non-RP servers, nor forcing you to do this on RP servers.
Essentially, this is a pointless "point" to make.
On those that do my immersion is higher due to "normal" names. People are generally more respectfull when you rp.
on servers that don't, you get your occasional whisper of "nerd", "geek", or worse. You get disrespected more, and with some names your immersion is less.
When a name like X Æ A- 12 is a valid name in the real world, you need to come up with a damn good reason why such a name would cause you to be less immersed in a game.
As to your point about respect, in a PvP game, respect is earned. I knew a LOT of people that were heavily in to RP in Archeage, but because they could hold their own, they earned the respect of the server. They also managed to have some RP events that non-RP'ers took part in, due to the respect the server as a whole had for the guild. I took part in a funeral procession they had for a player that decided to leave the game, as an example.
There were also RP heavy guilds that people had no respect for, and they had a lot of their RP events "disrupted".
That said, there were also non-RP guilds that put on guild events that got disrupted as well, so this isn't an RP specific thing (I remember interrupting two guilds trying to do a round robin duel bracket - me and my guild ended up winning...).
Even in games with RP servers, I know of a lot of individual players that didn't get any respect from the server as a whole - RP or otherwise.
What I am saying here is that respect is earned.
Period.
You can't force people to respect you, and attempting to do that will literally always have the opposite effect. Trying to get an RP server started up where players are forced to respect RP is trying to force others to respect you, like it or not.
If you have that respect, players are not going to care if you want to spend your time RP'ing or not - and may even, on occasion, respectfully join in.
This is not true, If you want to use a car analogy Then wow classic would be driving a 3 year old station wagon, New world a new Golf GTI, and Ashes a new racecar that comes out in (hopefully 2 years) Thing is that those drivers (and players) will trade in their cars for the hot new racecar. And the driver (or player) will still be as good as or bad as a driver (or player) as he is now.
MMO's were, for all intents and purposes, started in 1996 with Merdian59.
The automobile age was introduced, for all intents and purposes, in 1886 with the Benz Patent-Motorwagen.
We are in 2021 now, I am fairly sure we agree on this point.
Some basic math would suggest that if we go back in time 66% of the way to the start of the automobile age, that would land is right about 1930.
If we go back in time 66% of the way to the first MMO in 1996, that would land us in about 2004 - the year WoW released.
So, since WoW is from two thirds of the way back in terms of the MMO genre, it is comparable to a car two thirds of the way back in the automobile age - which is, as I said, the 1930's.
In both cases, the target market for the product (1930's cars and original WoW) is vastly different.
Back when WoW was released, people were not used to the idea of a game with a persistent world. People were happy just living and breathing it. in the 1930's, most people were not used to having a car at all still, and the idea of having something that was faster than walking was just fantastic.
Now though, players are used to a persistent world, and are somewhat jaded (generally speaking) by all things Internet. A persistent world isn't going to keep people entertained - the first thing people will do when they start a new game is look for ways to piss off other players.
Same with cars. A car that just moves faster than walking isn't nearly enough now. People want good mileage on it, they want comfort, they want safety. These things were simply not a concern in the 1930's, and so comparing a car now to one back then is just not a good idea.
I've told you MY reasoning why i want an RP tag on some servers. I tried to explain to you that besides the rp tag to attacrt like minded players nothing will fundamentaly change or needs extra "carebearing" then on other servers. These are my reasons, and i don't have to further explain to you why i think so. It seems obvious that your either beeing deliberatly confrontational, or have a completly different view of this, and there is likely no way to let me see my point of view.
I want to note 2 things though.
1) i'm not talking about wow's original release, i'm talking about the classic rerelease of less then 3 years ago.
2) no matter what server you'll be playing the gm's will have guidelines for whats accepted behaviour. killing someone 5-10-20 or even 50 times in a row could be in that guidelines, it could not be. depending on the Gm's policies. I hope they never release those policies, cause i think that griefing is on an individual basis and should never be an arbitrary number.
If i was a gm i would investigate if a complained of say someone killing somene more then 10 times is specificly targeted at them. Eg if your murdering everyone in that area and he would respawn again and again and go back to that area, then its his choice, if you would single out that player and leave everyone else alone, i would contact you to target other players and let that specific player be on his marry way. If your counter argument would be a valid reason, i would go back to the original player and tell him what to do to avoid it. If you'd ignore me (as gm) then i would know an area of the server that would be out of the way and more suitable to pvp conflicts. Probably where you are neutral and teleport you there.
Note if your killing him 20 times because your guilds are at war, then i would immediatly tell the other player that your at war and this is allowed behaviour.
Personally though if it was me, i would fight you a few times, i don't think i'll ever be a non combatant, and if i can't defeat you on my own, id either accept defeat and wait till you go away before respawning, or call in friends to aid me in battle.
I tried to explain to you that besides the rp tag to attacrt like minded players nothing will fundamentaly change or needs extra "carebearing" then on other servers.
I mean, you've said that a few times, but have also given examples of the extra work that Intrepid would need to put in.
Names that would be fitting in the world of ashes. Eg. nobody is going to name their child "733t ma93" or "asgagaeg" or any other kind of just a bunch of random letters. Things like that break or add to the immersion.
You want them to monitor character and guild names. This costs money.
If you keep the ganking to a reasonable level (say betwen 5-10 times per encounter) It shouldn't be reportable.
You want them to have a limit on how often a player can attack you. This fundamentally changes the game. I mean, on the regular servers, if I want to attack you 10, 50, or 100 times in a row, I am absolutely free to do so. The corruption system is your protection here, not reporting players.
So which is it? Do you want these things on an RP server? If you do, that means more work for Intrepid, and it means a fundamentally different game where players on RP servers have protections that players on other servers simply do not have.
Can you see why I am confused here? You keep saying you want them to be the same, but then keep giving solid examples of how they would not be the same.
So which is it? The servers being the same as other servers (which would mean neither of the two above being a thing), or the servers being different to regular servers?
It sounds to me like you just enjoy reporting people that are not conforming to your idea of enjoyment, honestly.
I'm done arguing with you on this topic. You either are to closed minded, unable to or unwilling to understand.
Ultimately it doesn't matter. your questions have allowed me to explain in more detail of the pro's of the tag. I don't have to convince you. The topic has been noted by community managers, and it might end up being put on the radar of the developers. Or not. This is not for us to decide.
I'm done arguing with you on this topic. You either are to closed minded, unable to or unwilling to understand.
Not at all.
I have some experience with RP servers in games, I have experience with games that have no RP servers yet still have RP, and I am trying to square your thoughts on it with my previous observations.
However, in order to even start to do that, your thoughts need to be squared internally.
A discussion on a topic when you state you want the servers to be the same, but then go on about the differences in the servers is really hard for anyone to participate in.
Until you actually make a decision on which you want, and state categorically that you do not want the opposite, I am honestly unsure how you can even sort your own thoughts out. So ,either you want the servers to be the same and so do not want name restrictions or the ability to report players for not RP'ing - or you do want name restrictions and the ability to report people for not RP'ing, and so want specific differences in the RP servers. These two things are mutually exclusive - yet every time you say you want the servers to be the same, you then go on about how you want them different.
I'm still not sure which it is that you want.
I'm not sure how you can point at me for being closed minded when all I am doing here is trying to understand what it is you are asking for. Sure, I have pointed out some logical fallacies in what you have said, but only in an attempt to understand if you want RP servers in name only, or if you want any actual effect on those servers.
As someone previously stated, Intrepid has stated there won’t be dedicated RP servers, as of now and it could change.
There are pros and cons with this kind of decision but there is a dedicated discord for those seeking RP in Ashes already in place and the bottom line is that whether there is a tag or not, the server that RP’ers choose will have Non-RP players on them. We can’t really force other players how to play the game and we need to be able to distinguish that.
Will it be funny to me that someone is named “HaUrDedIkilledu”? Or “N00bslayer?” Yeah lol
Will I let it ruin my experience? No way. It’s the difference between Out of Character knowledge and In Character knowledge in games like D&D.
Other plays enjoying the game outside of the rules ive set on myself and the community I play the game with should not effect how I enjoy the game.
As someone previously stated, Intrepid has stated there won’t be dedicated RP servers, as of now and it could change.
There are pros and cons with this kind of decision but there is a dedicated discord for those seeking RP in Ashes already in place and the bottom line is that whether there is a tag or not, the server that RP’ers choose will have Non-RP players on them. We can’t really force other players how to play the game and we need to be able to distinguish that.
Will it be funny to me that someone is named “HaUrDedIkilledu”? Or “N00bslayer?” Yeah lol
Will I let it ruin my experience? No way. It’s the difference between Out of Character knowledge and In Character knowledge in games like D&D.
Other plays enjoying the game outside of the rules ive set on myself and the community I play the game with should not effect how I enjoy the game.
This, imo, is the best attitude for someone wanting to RP in an MMO to have.
This is the kind of attitude that others respect, which more often than not results in others leaving people with this kind of attitude to do their thing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well NW launched with to few servers all of the starting servers are to full. doesn't have anything to do with rp or not. Makes you wonder how AoC will launch. I get the idea that AoC will utilize the old GM system for servers, and that might make upscaling a bit difficult
I didn't say that the RP servers being full had anything to do with them being RP servers.
RP servers being full means that gamers who want to jump on them just to cause grief can't easily do so right now. Lots of people who want to join NW RP servers to RP can't right now.
Griefing not happening on NW RP servers is a meaningless example.
If it's just an RP Tag. GMs will not be enforcing RP on RP-tagged servers.
That's my entire point. Ashes does not have designated servers - by design.
The devs/GMs will not be enforcing RP on RP tagged servers.
And gamers who want to grief RPers by interrupting their stories will know that RP rules won't be enforced.
As someone previously stated, Intrepid has stated there won’t be dedicated RP servers, as of now and it could change.
There are pros and cons with this kind of decision but there is a dedicated discord for those seeking RP in Ashes already in place and the bottom line is that whether there is a tag or not, the server that RP’ers choose will have Non-RP players on them. We can’t really force other players how to play the game and we need to be able to distinguish that.
Will it be funny to me that someone is named “HaUrDedIkilledu”? Or “N00bslayer?” Yeah lol
Will I let it ruin my experience? No way. It’s the difference between Out of Character knowledge and In Character knowledge in games like D&D.
Other plays enjoying the game outside of the rules ive set on myself and the community I play the game with should not effect how I enjoy the game.
This, imo, is the best attitude for someone wanting to RP in an MMO to have.
This is the kind of attitude that others respect, which more often than not results in others leaving people with this kind of attitude to do their thing.
This, imo, is the best attitude for someone wanting to RP in an MMO to have.
This is the kind of attitude that others respect, which more often than not results in others leaving people with this kind of attitude to do their thing.
I understand you guys point of view. For me personally i think tis a good idea. I pitched the idea, its up to developers to use it or not.
I come across enough "dicks" (pun intended) irl to try to lessen them in my virtual one.
This, imo, is the best attitude for someone wanting to RP in an MMO to have.
This is the kind of attitude that others respect, which more often than not results in others leaving people with this kind of attitude to do their thing.
I understand you guys point of view. For me personally i think tis a good idea. I pitched the idea, its up to developers to use it or not.
I come across enough "dicks" (pun intended) irl to try to lessen them in my virtual one.
No matter the forum there will be jerks. At least in the virtual world like Ashes we can throw fireballs and giant maces at their faces haha
I know they said they didnt really want to make RP server. But I think if they keep their idea of PvP as it is right now (Able to kill green player and PvP penalty and Malus on death from mob) I think they will reduce their player base by ALOT which can result in death of the game.
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I know they said they didnt really want to make RP server. But I think if they keep their idea of PvP as it is right now (Able to kill green player and PvP penalty and Malus on death from mob) I think they will reduce their player base by ALOT which can result in death of the game.
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
Im not saying it penalize these player. Im saying it limit to this only kind of player base.
Because the player who dont like that will most likely not buy the game or stop playing after a while.
And if these player leave well the revenue generated and population playing will be reduced cause it only attrack 1 type of player base.
Player who like to gank and kill at view are a minority of player and or they get tired after a while.
I know they said they didnt really want to make RP server. But I think if they keep their idea of PvP as it is right now (Able to kill green player and PvP penalty and Malus on death from mob) I think they will reduce their player base by ALOT which can result in death of the game.
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
People keep saying things like this, but I never understand it.
So what if you can fight back?
Don't you have to be able to win for that to matter? Telling sheep 'this game is good because you can fight back against annoying wolves" strikes me as an incredibly weird response, but I can't usually find a different interpretation for these answers.
People keep saying things like this, but I never understand it.
So what if you can fight back?
Don't you have to be able to win for that to matter? Telling sheep 'this game is good because you can fight back against annoying wolves" strikes me as an incredibly weird response, but I can't usually find a different interpretation for these answers.
Please provide one if you can.[/quote]
I equally find it an equally weird response when people want to change the fundamental building blocks of games they paid for. In this case Ashes has been very clear on the world they want players to interact in and that means open pvp. Whether you like it or not that’s the scope they want to have.
Now, it could very well change and they can introduce a pvp toggle system or dedicated servers for PvE, but until then we have to presume open pvp will be the core of the open world.
The same systems that allow the wolves to attack o the “sheeps” as you call it, also equally allowed the sheep to group up and attack the wolves also. If a player is PvE focused, which is perfectly fine they have every right to play the game they prefer, but they get into Ashes a level of understanding has to come regarding pvp. They will encounter it.
However, due to the guild-centric social sphere the game is going for it would be in people’s best interest to surround themselves with other players to help them when the pvp encounter happens.
If the player is solo or truly detests the idea of pvp, they will lose these fights but being that they were not the aggressor and didn’t fight back, the attacking player will incur penalties for a block of time. These penalties can then allow the “sheep” to have a fighting chance and get there stuff back even to the point that the attacking player can loose everything they have equipped.
There are multiple solutions and layers to open world pvp to allow the pve minded folks a fighting chance. If all those things in place will still harbour a player to want to the gaming company to change the game to suite their play style then maybe the game isn’t for them.
We as consumers of video games need to understand what we are getting ourselves into before we shell out money. I’m not a fan of complaining to gaming companies so they can cater to the minority. World of Warcraft had very unique class variety when it launched and because so many people complained “why does X class have X thing and I don’t!” The classes have become homogenised in the worse way in today’s day and age. Your class won’t have the answer to every situation, you’re play style might need to adjust depending on certain situations.
Again, to reiterate, the game could very well change between now and then, but if someone buys an open world pvp game and complains about it? Then I see that as a weird way to spend your money. That would be like me playing Minecraft and complain about the crafting.
This became pretty ranty and that wasn’t the intention but here we are. There are solutions intended for the game for a variety of situations to help the most amount of people no matter your play style. We just have to figure out what works for us within those systems to get the most enjoyment possible and understand there will be loss of items and we will die in game.
I know they said they didnt really want to make RP server. But I think if they keep their idea of PvP as it is right now (Able to kill green player and PvP penalty and Malus on death from mob) I think they will reduce their player base by ALOT which can result in death of the game.
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
I think you misunderstand an RP tag will have nothing to do with the amount of pvp. The game is PvP based, It might be beneficial to the amount of ganking, It might also be detrimental.
Eg a guild rp's a clan of orcs bent of world domination, and the eradication of all other races. So in their rguild philosophy each member is obligated to kill all other races. This can lead to excessive ganking. But it would be done in an RP way.
So an RP tag is not synonomous to more pve or less ganking. Although Hopefully the RP bit does reduce the mindless ganking without a reason (in the above example there was an RP reason)
I know they said they didnt really want to make RP server. But I think if they keep their idea of PvP as it is right now (Able to kill green player and PvP penalty and Malus on death from mob) I think they will reduce their player base by ALOT which can result in death of the game.
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
People keep saying things like this, but I never understand it.
So what if you can fight back?
Don't you have to be able to win for that to matter? Telling sheep 'this game is good because you can fight back against annoying wolves" strikes me as an incredibly weird response, but I can't usually find a different interpretation for these answers.
Please provide one if you can.
Fighting back can be on multiple fronts. Best example Eve online. There are numerous ways you can fight back there, even if your bullied by one of the major alliances. Its a game thats been running for 18 years now with always a 25k to 50k concurrent players.
The question is not, will there be enough concurrent players, but will the concurrent players yield enough revenu to keep Intrepids ambitions going.
In my experience, an RP tag does three things for a server:
It will likely attract more roleplayers compared to unofficial RP servers because, well, it's tagged so more other roleplayers will go there right? Unless those unofficial RP server people are very good at advertising for said unofficial RP servers, in which case you might as well just have an official tag.
It will also attract a lot of people who are not roleplayers by any real definition, but they think an RP server will have a more mature population with less stupid names. It's a super common perception.
And it will attract some people who think of roleplayers as easy prey. This could be PvP and server domination wise and/or in terms of getting their rocks off by ruining other people's gameplay (aka griefers).
I think all three groups are correct in their assessments honestly. Nobody wants the griefers obviously, but if the goal isn't to reduce them as much as it is to just increase the population of roleplayers on the server, I think an official RP tag is a good idea. The biggest problem in the beginning might actually be the second group who all go there and fill up the server, preventing the actual roleplayers from joining.
If the goal is to reduce the people that deliberately disrupt roleplaying and lessen other people's enjoyment of that part of the game, because they find satisfaction from that, I don't really have a good solution. The most effective solution I can think of is probably increasing the sub fee for RP servers to $30. No different rules or any sort of roleplaying enforcement by GMs. Again, it's not a good solution overall, because it's really unfair to the roleplayers, but I think it might reduce the amount of griefers significantly, if that is the primary goal.
In my experience, an RP tag does three things for a server:
It will likely attract more roleplayers compared to unofficial RP servers because, well, it's tagged so more other roleplayers will go there right? Unless those unofficial RP server people are very good at advertising for said unofficial RP servers, in which case you might as well just have an official tag.
It will also attract a lot of people who are not roleplayers by any real definition, but they think an RP server will have a more mature population with less stupid names. It's a super common perception.
And it will attract some people who think of roleplayers as easy prey. This could be PvP and server domination wise and/or in terms of getting their rocks off by ruining other people's gameplay (aka griefers).
I think all three groups are correct in their assessments honestly. Nobody wants the griefers obviously, but if the goal isn't to reduce them as much as it is to just increase the population of roleplayers on the server, I think an official RP tag is a good idea. The biggest problem in the beginning might actually be the second group who all go there and fill up the server, preventing the actual roleplayers from joining.
If the goal is to reduce the people that deliberately disrupt roleplaying and lessen other people's enjoyment of that part of the game, because they find satisfaction from that, I don't really have a good solution. The most effective solution I can think of is probably increasing the sub fee for RP servers to $30. No different rules or any sort of roleplaying enforcement by GMs. Again, it's not a good solution overall, because it's really unfair to the roleplayers, but I think it might reduce the amount of griefers significantly, if that is the primary goal.
I think a monthly increas of the subscription is a little bit absurd. Because we dont'even know if griefing will be a problem Bu if it does become a problemi think that a low entry fee of that server might solve the problem.
I think a monthly increas of the subscription is a little bit absurd. Because we dont'even know if griefing will be a problem Bu if it does become a problemi think that a low entry fee of that server might solve the problem.
A low entry won't solve anything.
Griefing will be a thing. History bears this out. An increased fee for playing on this server will potentially solve the griefing issue - and if the server is going to require more effort from Intrepid (censuring player names, higher frequency of players reporting each other etc), then it is perfectly valid for them to ask for more to play on that server.
I mean, almost any company that has two products where one just outright costs them more than the other will charge more for the one that costs them more. Why should this be any different?
Comments
This is true and thats why i'm basing my current recommendation on wow classic and New World experiances. I believe (see the replies above this one) that a tag for rp servers will ultimately be beneficial for the game
It's only been one week of NW RP servers and those are all full, AFAIK.
If you pick one and state that you want it, cool, we can have a conversation.
If you just jump between each of them at will/your convenience, obviously no worthwhile discussion can take place.
If Intrepid have RP servers and enforce a specific ruleset on them, then players on those servers would have every right to expect those rules be enforced. Now we need to determine what those rules are - is it all RP, all the time? Is it just no specific anti-RP activities? Then this needs to be squared with Intrepids desire for what essentially amounts to troll behavior in game - people can play the villain in Ashes, and Intrepid not only encourage it, but essentially require it. That villain need not only be a villain in terms of RP, but also in terms of the player behind the character. RP servers where rules are enforced would likely see this be lost, and may even see a total lack of players even willing to be the villain on RP servers for fear of report-positive people reporting them for behavior that Intrepid essentially require for the game to function.
Then you have the cost of enforcing these additional rules - which is not insignificant. In order for your suggestion to be based on specific rules, this cost needs to be accounted for in some way.
Or you could go with no specific rules for RP servers. if this is the case, what is the difference between this and a player initiative RP server? Don't say that an RP tag on a server will attract those wanting to RP and turn away those that don't - because it absolutely, 100% will not. If there were a designated RP server and no rules, my guild and I would happily roll there, as ruining some ERP party by slaughtering all participants just sounds like a whole bunch of fun.
So far, you have said you'd like a thing, and said that you would like it based on some things that happened in other games that are not even remotely comparable to Ashes (comparing WoW original release to an MMO releasing now is about the same as comparing a car from the 1930's to one made now - different technology, different pace, different purpose, different user mindset, different things will happen).
You haven't actually put forward a good argument as to why Intrepid should backtrack on what they have said, why the value of them doing that would outweigh the value of them sticking to their word.
I think you are misguided of what most rp ers want. Namely emersion and interaction. It boils down to those two things. As for the rules that are "needed" for that? Personally it would be only 2 rules:
1) Use fantasy / lore appropiate character and guild names
2) Respect other peoples Rp
Names that would be fitting in the world of ashes. Eg. nobody is going to name their child "733t ma93" or "asgagaeg" or any other kind of just a bunch of random letters. Things like that break or add to the immersion.
Second you'd want people to be respectfull towards other rp ers. You want to create a guild that goes around and slaughter ERP ers? fine! do that, but have in your or your guild description some story why your doing that. You'll probably build notiatry for doing so, but its up on the individual if they like your actions or not. If you keep the ganking to a reasonable level (say betwen 5-10 times per encounter) It shouldn't be reportable. Although you'd probabaly build corruption quite fast. But that can lead to more rp moments for other groups that either start protecting "The slayer of indecency" or hunt the " Vile murderer"
You can choose who you affiliate yourself with (or create a guild yourself) and thus choose the rules. Some guilds will hard enforce RP all the time, some will not,
On an rp server preparations for guild wars would sometimes go differently while in other servers the alliances are forged out of game in comms like discord, on an rp server they might be forged in character in a specific location.
I've been rp ing in different games for a long time, but i notice the difference between games that have dedicated rp servers and those that don't. On those that do my immersion is higher due to "normal" names. People are generally more respectfull when you rp.
on servers that don't, you get your occasional whisper of "nerd", "geek", or worse. You get disrespected more, and with some names your immersion is less.
This is not true, If you want to use a car analogy Then wow classic would be driving a 3 year old station wagon, New world a new Golf GTI, and Ashes a new racecar that comes out in (hopefully 2 years) Thing is that those drivers (and players) will trade in their cars for the hot new racecar. And the driver (or player) will still be as good as or bad as a driver (or player) as he is now.
Or are you saying that my RP is less valid than your RP?
All those rules seem to be is a shelter from the games PvP system. If I want to kill you 20 times in a row, the game allows me to do that and gives me a penalty for it. There should not be some artificial system on top of that to prevent me from doing so, or risk losing my account.
If you want to call me a "vile murderer", have at it, you can do that on the regular servers as well. So far, the only actual change you have talked about is PvP protection for RP'ers.
Nothing is stopping you from doing this in general on non-RP servers, nor forcing you to do this on RP servers.
Essentially, this is a pointless "point" to make.
When a name like X Æ A- 12 is a valid name in the real world, you need to come up with a damn good reason why such a name would cause you to be less immersed in a game.
As to your point about respect, in a PvP game, respect is earned. I knew a LOT of people that were heavily in to RP in Archeage, but because they could hold their own, they earned the respect of the server. They also managed to have some RP events that non-RP'ers took part in, due to the respect the server as a whole had for the guild. I took part in a funeral procession they had for a player that decided to leave the game, as an example.
There were also RP heavy guilds that people had no respect for, and they had a lot of their RP events "disrupted".
That said, there were also non-RP guilds that put on guild events that got disrupted as well, so this isn't an RP specific thing (I remember interrupting two guilds trying to do a round robin duel bracket - me and my guild ended up winning...).
Even in games with RP servers, I know of a lot of individual players that didn't get any respect from the server as a whole - RP or otherwise.
What I am saying here is that respect is earned.
Period.
You can't force people to respect you, and attempting to do that will literally always have the opposite effect. Trying to get an RP server started up where players are forced to respect RP is trying to force others to respect you, like it or not.
If you have that respect, players are not going to care if you want to spend your time RP'ing or not - and may even, on occasion, respectfully join in.
MMO's were, for all intents and purposes, started in 1996 with Merdian59.
The automobile age was introduced, for all intents and purposes, in 1886 with the Benz Patent-Motorwagen.
We are in 2021 now, I am fairly sure we agree on this point.
Some basic math would suggest that if we go back in time 66% of the way to the start of the automobile age, that would land is right about 1930.
If we go back in time 66% of the way to the first MMO in 1996, that would land us in about 2004 - the year WoW released.
So, since WoW is from two thirds of the way back in terms of the MMO genre, it is comparable to a car two thirds of the way back in the automobile age - which is, as I said, the 1930's.
In both cases, the target market for the product (1930's cars and original WoW) is vastly different.
Back when WoW was released, people were not used to the idea of a game with a persistent world. People were happy just living and breathing it. in the 1930's, most people were not used to having a car at all still, and the idea of having something that was faster than walking was just fantastic.
Now though, players are used to a persistent world, and are somewhat jaded (generally speaking) by all things Internet. A persistent world isn't going to keep people entertained - the first thing people will do when they start a new game is look for ways to piss off other players.
Same with cars. A car that just moves faster than walking isn't nearly enough now. People want good mileage on it, they want comfort, they want safety. These things were simply not a concern in the 1930's, and so comparing a car now to one back then is just not a good idea.
I want to note 2 things though.
1) i'm not talking about wow's original release, i'm talking about the classic rerelease of less then 3 years ago.
2) no matter what server you'll be playing the gm's will have guidelines for whats accepted behaviour. killing someone 5-10-20 or even 50 times in a row could be in that guidelines, it could not be. depending on the Gm's policies. I hope they never release those policies, cause i think that griefing is on an individual basis and should never be an arbitrary number.
If i was a gm i would investigate if a complained of say someone killing somene more then 10 times is specificly targeted at them. Eg if your murdering everyone in that area and he would respawn again and again and go back to that area, then its his choice, if you would single out that player and leave everyone else alone, i would contact you to target other players and let that specific player be on his marry way. If your counter argument would be a valid reason, i would go back to the original player and tell him what to do to avoid it. If you'd ignore me (as gm) then i would know an area of the server that would be out of the way and more suitable to pvp conflicts. Probably where you are neutral and teleport you there.
Note if your killing him 20 times because your guilds are at war, then i would immediatly tell the other player that your at war and this is allowed behaviour.
Personally though if it was me, i would fight you a few times, i don't think i'll ever be a non combatant, and if i can't defeat you on my own, id either accept defeat and wait till you go away before respawning, or call in friends to aid me in battle.
That's even worse than Moon Unit Zappa.
So which is it? Do you want these things on an RP server? If you do, that means more work for Intrepid, and it means a fundamentally different game where players on RP servers have protections that players on other servers simply do not have.
Can you see why I am confused here? You keep saying you want them to be the same, but then keep giving solid examples of how they would not be the same.
So which is it? The servers being the same as other servers (which would mean neither of the two above being a thing), or the servers being different to regular servers?
It sounds to me like you just enjoy reporting people that are not conforming to your idea of enjoyment, honestly.
And trying to keep the scum off the server they'll be playing on, so the rest of us have to put up with them.
I'm done arguing with you on this topic. You either are to closed minded, unable to or unwilling to understand.
Ultimately it doesn't matter. your questions have allowed me to explain in more detail of the pro's of the tag. I don't have to convince you. The topic has been noted by community managers, and it might end up being put on the radar of the developers. Or not. This is not for us to decide.
I bid you a good day
I have some experience with RP servers in games, I have experience with games that have no RP servers yet still have RP, and I am trying to square your thoughts on it with my previous observations.
However, in order to even start to do that, your thoughts need to be squared internally.
A discussion on a topic when you state you want the servers to be the same, but then go on about the differences in the servers is really hard for anyone to participate in.
Until you actually make a decision on which you want, and state categorically that you do not want the opposite, I am honestly unsure how you can even sort your own thoughts out. So ,either you want the servers to be the same and so do not want name restrictions or the ability to report players for not RP'ing - or you do want name restrictions and the ability to report people for not RP'ing, and so want specific differences in the RP servers. These two things are mutually exclusive - yet every time you say you want the servers to be the same, you then go on about how you want them different.
I'm still not sure which it is that you want.
I'm not sure how you can point at me for being closed minded when all I am doing here is trying to understand what it is you are asking for. Sure, I have pointed out some logical fallacies in what you have said, but only in an attempt to understand if you want RP servers in name only, or if you want any actual effect on those servers.
Below is a link to the Forum discussion and below that a link to the discord.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/49229/ashes-of-creation-roleplay-community-all-are-welcome#latest
https://discord.gg/4xhevZqGgj
There are pros and cons with this kind of decision but there is a dedicated discord for those seeking RP in Ashes already in place and the bottom line is that whether there is a tag or not, the server that RP’ers choose will have Non-RP players on them. We can’t really force other players how to play the game and we need to be able to distinguish that.
Will it be funny to me that someone is named “HaUrDedIkilledu”? Or “N00bslayer?” Yeah lol
Will I let it ruin my experience? No way. It’s the difference between Out of Character knowledge and In Character knowledge in games like D&D.
Other plays enjoying the game outside of the rules ive set on myself and the community I play the game with should not effect how I enjoy the game.
This, imo, is the best attitude for someone wanting to RP in an MMO to have.
This is the kind of attitude that others respect, which more often than not results in others leaving people with this kind of attitude to do their thing.
RP servers being full means that gamers who want to jump on them just to cause grief can't easily do so right now. Lots of people who want to join NW RP servers to RP can't right now.
Griefing not happening on NW RP servers is a meaningless example.
If it's just an RP Tag. GMs will not be enforcing RP on RP-tagged servers.
That's my entire point. Ashes does not have designated servers - by design.
The devs/GMs will not be enforcing RP on RP tagged servers.
And gamers who want to grief RPers by interrupting their stories will know that RP rules won't be enforced.
I understand you guys point of view. For me personally i think tis a good idea. I pitched the idea, its up to developers to use it or not.
I come across enough "dicks" (pun intended) irl to try to lessen them in my virtual one.
No matter the forum there will be jerks. At least in the virtual world like Ashes we can throw fireballs and giant maces at their faces haha
I know lots of people who play this kind of game casually and dont really like beeing ganked and all. So I think allocating a fews servers to them would be beneficial to the game.
They still gonna play and buy things while unbothering more Elite type of player
I don’t think this will be the case. How is an Open world pvp game that penalises consistent ganking/griefing going to kill the game for those who prefer not to pvp? It helps those individuals specifically
Im not saying it penalize these player. Im saying it limit to this only kind of player base.
Because the player who dont like that will most likely not buy the game or stop playing after a while.
And if these player leave well the revenue generated and population playing will be reduced cause it only attrack 1 type of player base.
Player who like to gank and kill at view are a minority of player and or they get tired after a while.
People keep saying things like this, but I never understand it.
So what if you can fight back?
Don't you have to be able to win for that to matter? Telling sheep 'this game is good because you can fight back against annoying wolves" strikes me as an incredibly weird response, but I can't usually find a different interpretation for these answers.
Please provide one if you can.
People keep saying things like this, but I never understand it.
So what if you can fight back?
Don't you have to be able to win for that to matter? Telling sheep 'this game is good because you can fight back against annoying wolves" strikes me as an incredibly weird response, but I can't usually find a different interpretation for these answers.
Please provide one if you can.[/quote]
I equally find it an equally weird response when people want to change the fundamental building blocks of games they paid for. In this case Ashes has been very clear on the world they want players to interact in and that means open pvp. Whether you like it or not that’s the scope they want to have.
Now, it could very well change and they can introduce a pvp toggle system or dedicated servers for PvE, but until then we have to presume open pvp will be the core of the open world.
The same systems that allow the wolves to attack o the “sheeps” as you call it, also equally allowed the sheep to group up and attack the wolves also. If a player is PvE focused, which is perfectly fine they have every right to play the game they prefer, but they get into Ashes a level of understanding has to come regarding pvp. They will encounter it.
However, due to the guild-centric social sphere the game is going for it would be in people’s best interest to surround themselves with other players to help them when the pvp encounter happens.
If the player is solo or truly detests the idea of pvp, they will lose these fights but being that they were not the aggressor and didn’t fight back, the attacking player will incur penalties for a block of time. These penalties can then allow the “sheep” to have a fighting chance and get there stuff back even to the point that the attacking player can loose everything they have equipped.
There are multiple solutions and layers to open world pvp to allow the pve minded folks a fighting chance. If all those things in place will still harbour a player to want to the gaming company to change the game to suite their play style then maybe the game isn’t for them.
We as consumers of video games need to understand what we are getting ourselves into before we shell out money. I’m not a fan of complaining to gaming companies so they can cater to the minority. World of Warcraft had very unique class variety when it launched and because so many people complained “why does X class have X thing and I don’t!” The classes have become homogenised in the worse way in today’s day and age. Your class won’t have the answer to every situation, you’re play style might need to adjust depending on certain situations.
Again, to reiterate, the game could very well change between now and then, but if someone buys an open world pvp game and complains about it? Then I see that as a weird way to spend your money. That would be like me playing Minecraft and complain about the crafting.
This became pretty ranty and that wasn’t the intention but here we are. There are solutions intended for the game for a variety of situations to help the most amount of people no matter your play style. We just have to figure out what works for us within those systems to get the most enjoyment possible and understand there will be loss of items and we will die in game.
I think you misunderstand an RP tag will have nothing to do with the amount of pvp. The game is PvP based, It might be beneficial to the amount of ganking, It might also be detrimental.
Eg a guild rp's a clan of orcs bent of world domination, and the eradication of all other races. So in their rguild philosophy each member is obligated to kill all other races. This can lead to excessive ganking. But it would be done in an RP way.
So an RP tag is not synonomous to more pve or less ganking. Although Hopefully the RP bit does reduce the mindless ganking without a reason (in the above example there was an RP reason)
Fighting back can be on multiple fronts. Best example Eve online. There are numerous ways you can fight back there, even if your bullied by one of the major alliances. Its a game thats been running for 18 years now with always a 25k to 50k concurrent players.
The question is not, will there be enough concurrent players, but will the concurrent players yield enough revenu to keep Intrepids ambitions going.
I think all three groups are correct in their assessments honestly. Nobody wants the griefers obviously, but if the goal isn't to reduce them as much as it is to just increase the population of roleplayers on the server, I think an official RP tag is a good idea. The biggest problem in the beginning might actually be the second group who all go there and fill up the server, preventing the actual roleplayers from joining.
If the goal is to reduce the people that deliberately disrupt roleplaying and lessen other people's enjoyment of that part of the game, because they find satisfaction from that, I don't really have a good solution. The most effective solution I can think of is probably increasing the sub fee for RP servers to $30. No different rules or any sort of roleplaying enforcement by GMs. Again, it's not a good solution overall, because it's really unfair to the roleplayers, but I think it might reduce the amount of griefers significantly, if that is the primary goal.
I think a monthly increas of the subscription is a little bit absurd. Because we dont'even know if griefing will be a problem Bu if it does become a problemi think that a low entry fee of that server might solve the problem.
Griefing will be a thing. History bears this out. An increased fee for playing on this server will potentially solve the griefing issue - and if the server is going to require more effort from Intrepid (censuring player names, higher frequency of players reporting each other etc), then it is perfectly valid for them to ask for more to play on that server.
I mean, almost any company that has two products where one just outright costs them more than the other will charge more for the one that costs them more. Why should this be any different?