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Explain to me how this game isn’t ruined by cosmetic MTX.

edited December 2021 in General Discussion
Someone needs to try their best and explain to me how this game isn’t already ruined by the introduction of LOADS of cosmetic MTX. The entire purpose of playing an MMO is the progression of your character both in terms of skill and power and also their armor and how they look. Please explain to me how buying the ability to look cool doesn’t change the fundamental gameplay and incentive of playing this game? I would LOVE to pay a box cost and sub to never have a single MTX in the game. WoW was the most popular and successful mmo of all time for over a decade without ever having cosmetic MTX. Now they do but explain to me why this game needs to have a sub and cosmetic MTX. It completely ruins the game for me. There is zero incentive for me to play a game where I know you can just buy the ability to look good and there is zero prestige or work associated with looking good. Don’t give me the reasons why you claim they need MTX to develop the game. That’s BS. The sub fee more than pays for the game and the continued development. If they had box price the preorders would pay for the initial development and the launch and expansions and sub would make ridiculous money. All without ruining the core gameplay loop. Instead I now consider this to be on the same tier as Fortnite, BDO, and basically any other sort of low tier lowest common denominator slop in the gaming feeding trough. Cosmetic MTX ruin video games ESPECIALLY MMOs. Not to mention it entices the devs to make the best looking things as purchasable so you spend money meanwhile your character in game will find one or two armor visuals the entire leveling experience because they’ve all been locked behind a paywall. You can claim “oh no no Steve said there will be tons of visual diversity in game not just through the cash shop!” To which I would say BS, this game is doing what every single other game does. The devs decry pay to win MTX and say “this game will never be pay to win!” And you all gobble it up meanwhile they are bending you over backwards with cosmetic MTX which affect gameplay just as much as pay to win.
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Comments

  • StretchStretch Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Please explain to me how buying the ability to look cool doesn’t change the fundamental gameplay and incentive of playing this game

    I wouldn't really say that "looking cool" is a fundamental gameplay or the incentive of playing.
    Like the fundamentals of gameplay is to build up nodes, conqueror the nodes, explore, trade, make a name for yourself etc.

    When you mention keep mentioning incentive, it sort of feels like you think there is some stats or the idea that someone can sub for a month, spend $10 on an outfit and be done with the game? Completely ignoring the character progression or the rest of the content I mentioned up above.

    Personally, I'm indifferent to it. I've played many MMO's with optional cosmetics and never really felt i was missing out. For example, if you go through the game and craft the best tier armor or beat the hardest raid, that itself is something to take pride in and show off with. Never have I seen someone say "oh wow that armor looks cool and all but did you see bob spend $10! Top tier player now that's what I call hard work!"

    If history is going to repeat itself, I can't see myself buying cosmetics but I'm indifferent to it.
    If your incentive of playing the game is to spend the most to look the coolest, I think its the wrong mindset to have and completely ignores the actual fundamentals of the game.

    You'll still be able to look fabulous without buying cosmetics.
  • Man, are you ok? That’s a lot of righteous indignation over this aspect of the game. Maybe calm down, hang out for a bit, and you’ll learn, instead of throwing a tantrum and demanding answers.

    No one owes you anything.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The entire purpose of playing an MMO is the progression of your character both in terms of skill and power and also their armor and how they look.
    The explanation is simple.

    You are wrong about this second point.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    First of all, none of these cosmetics look great to me. They all present a low lv, common character. And that's because they are made for npc models.

    Second, there will be nearly so many servers worldwide, with 10k players online.
    These cosmetics have been purchased by a small number of supporters. You wont run into anybody wearing them.

    Pay attention to the third reason why they wont ruin the game.
    You cant equip those cosmetics, unless you alrdy have crafted the real armor, at the appropriate lv. Which means that you eont see low lv people wearing these cosmetics over their lv1 wooden breastplate.
  • KovrmKovrm Member
    edited December 2021
    The purchasing of the pre-order packs and their high cost, in my opinion, is for supporting the development and the ability to help test stuff through A1 and 2 and B1 and 2. The cosmetics are, again my opinion, just kind of a 'Thank You' for your monetary support. Same with the game time they give you.

    I purchased the V+ pack for the sole purpose of helping test come A2 and to be able to give serious and much needed feedback to the devs because this is a game I have high hopes for and good deal of faith in. I want to help it succeed however I can. I couldn't give less fucks about the cosmetic skins, and wouldn't care if they had to be unlocked in game somehow. That said, I did wait until a pack I liked came around, because I had the ability to do so, and why not get something I like?

    ETA: They have also said that in-game achievable/earnable cosmetics will absolutely rival and/or surpass the looks and quality of some of the pre-order ones. So, there's that tidbit also.. Rest easy on the fact that just because some cosmetics are purchased for real money doesn't mean they will be better than all in-game ones. On this same note, I do hope that MOST in-game earned cosmetics surpass the real money purchased ones.

    See the 2nd Bullet point on this link: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics

    ETA2: I notice you just joined the forums at 10:23am today, amd this is your first post.. So, I would suggest you go sift through the wiki, watch a few of the dev update vids, check Jahlon's content and his Ashes101 website. I'd also suggest not coming across in the manner you have in this post, and to be a bit more friendly in voicing concerns and dislikes in order to have an actual conversation on said subject. Most everyone here is willing to talk about a wide range of topics provided you don't come across as demanding and rude, brother. You can also just tell me to F off, etc. and that'd be fine to. :)
  • MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited December 2021
    If you think your character looks better or is "powerfull" because you got a $100 cosmetic vs my character that looks like it is the result of many hours of work, dedication and effort, then you must analyze what is your vision about "Which is an MMO for me? ".

    Several people will be able to buy cosmetics but NEVER those cosmetics can replace the feeling that generates you by improving your character by the effort of countless nights.

    Your own respect as an MMO player, that's the end game of every true MMO player.


    If I like any cosmetics I buy it, that makes me a bad player?
    If the developers of Intrepid strive to do something I like obviously I will support them (as long as I have money for that 🤣).

    In other words
    The cosmetics for Intrepid are the effort of the developers to show us their different development skills, both for the world of AoC and for the player.

    Buying cosmetics will be an obstacle to improve the characters only for people who do not want to improve their character, for others cosmetics are only visual cosmetics.
    The trips are not only physical, there are mental and spiritual trips.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One

    Pay attention to the third reason why they wont ruin the game.
    You cant equip those cosmetics, unless you alrdy have crafted the real armor, at the appropriate lv. Which means that you eont see low lv people wearing these cosmetics over their lv1 wooden breastplate.

    Further clarification granted on statements from the latest livestream.
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  • Kovrm wrote: »
    The purchasing of the pre-order packs and their high cost, in my opinion, is for supporting the development and the ability to help test stuff through A1 and 2 and B1 and 2. The cosmetics are, again my opinion, just kind of a 'Thank You' for your monetary support. Same with the game time they give you.

    I purchased the V+ pack for the sole purpose of helping test come A2 and to be able to give serious and much needed feedback to the devs because this is a game I have high hopes for and good deal of faith in. I want to help it succeed however I can. I couldn't give less fucks about the cosmetic skins, and wouldn't care if they had to be unlocked in game somehow. That said, I did wait until a pack I liked came around, because I had the ability to do so, and why not get something I like?

    ETA: They have also said that in-game achievable/earnable cosmetics will absolutely rival and/or surpass the looks and quality of some of the pre-order ones. So, there's that tidbit also.. Rest easy on the fact that just because some cosmetics are purchased for real money doesn't mean they will be better than all in-game ones. On this same note, I do hope that MOST in-game earned cosmetics surpass the real money purchased ones.

    See the 2nd Bullet point on this link: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics

    ETA2: I notice you just joined the forums at 10:23am today, amd this is your first post.. So, I would suggest you go sift through the wiki, watch a few of the dev update vids, check Jahlon's content and his Ashes101 website. I'd also suggest not coming across in the manner you have in this post, and to be a bit more friendly in voicing concerns and dislikes in order to have an actual conversation on said subject. Most everyone here is willing to talk about a wide range of topics provided you don't come across as demanding and rude, brother. You can also just tell me to F off, etc. and that'd be fine to. :)
    Ya I just joined the forum but I know of all the posts and info you just said. I follow this game and every other MMO like a hawk. It makes no difference, you can support the game by preordering it if they chose box price. That would’ve been more than sufficient. It’s not necessary to need support though limited time FOMO cosmetic MTX. If you couldn’t care less about cosmetic skins then you are ignoring a major portion of the game. Why even award any visual armor? Let’s go BDO style where nothing you equip will change your appearance. Why not right? If you don’t care about cosmetics. I want to pay for any ability to change how I look, otherwise it’s just a default costume. Is that a good direction for the game? Because that’s the direction it will go as they see the money coming in from cosmetic MTX. New world is already doing it. The game has suffered in so many ways and there is such a lack of content and massive lack of visual diversity with in game weapons and armor yet every week they are adding tons of armor and weapon sets to the cosmetic MTX shop. If the direction of MMOs is to no longer aware meaningful visual progression then we have literally downgraded back to the 90s when the original MMOs didn’t have the capacity to change your look.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Let’s go BDO style where nothing you equip will change your appearance. Why not right? If you don’t care about cosmetics. I want to pay for any ability to change how I look, otherwise it’s just a default costume. Is that a good direction for the game? Because that’s the direction it will go as they see the money coming in from cosmetic MTX.
    Steven has already stated that there were be looks available to characters that are gained in game and will be comparable in quality to purchased cosmetics.

    Since Steven has so far not outright lied or purposefully deceived the player base, we have no logical option other than to take him at his word, at least for now.

    Your last point, about MMO's from the 90's - that is just plain misinformation.

    Meridian 59 - generally considered the first MMO - allowed players to change their appearance via changing equipment.

    However, even back then, they knew that there was no point in trying to place any value in that appearance, because taste in fashion is 100% subjective.

    This is the issue modern MMO's have - especially WoW.

    They add in linear armor sets, each one being more powerful than the previous. Players are supposed to like the next set more than they liked the last, appearance included.

    This has turned in to some misguided players thinking that appearance is the point of MMO's, when in fact it is not.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    The entire purpose of playing an MMO is the progression of your character both in terms of skill and power and also their armor and how they look.
    The explanation is simple.

    You are wrong about this second point.

    Noaani is exactly correct here. The design behind Ashes is based on the premise that players do not value a merit-based visual progression of their character so highly that they will quit the game over it.

    Ashes instead is designed around having a low barrier to entry through no box cost and that players will be content with good looking armor obtained through the cosmetic store and also through playing the game.

    It doesn't look like this is going to change so we'll see what happens!
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If winning the "Fashion Show" is all it takes to win AOC. They might as well shut down production now and send me the trophy. No reason to waste more time and resources. I have already won according to some people which is super awesome thanks all.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/File:Face_of_Sorrow.png#/media/File:Face_of_Sorrow.png
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • Kovrm wrote: »
    The purchasing of the pre-order packs and their high cost, in my opinion, is for supporting the development and the ability to help test stuff through A1 and 2 and B1 and 2. The cosmetics are, again my opinion, just kind of a 'Thank You' for your monetary support. Same with the game time they give you.

    I purchased the V+ pack for the sole purpose of helping test come A2 and to be able to give serious and much needed feedback to the devs because this is a game I have high hopes for and good deal of faith in. I want to help it succeed however I can. I couldn't give less fucks about the cosmetic skins, and wouldn't care if they had to be unlocked in game somehow. That said, I did wait until a pack I liked came around, because I had the ability to do so, and why not get something I like?

    ETA: They have also said that in-game achievable/earnable cosmetics will absolutely rival and/or surpass the looks and quality of some of the pre-order ones. So, there's that tidbit also.. Rest easy on the fact that just because some cosmetics are purchased for real money doesn't mean they will be better than all in-game ones. On this same note, I do hope that MOST in-game earned cosmetics surpass the real money purchased ones.

    See the 2nd Bullet point on this link: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics

    ETA2: I notice you just joined the forums at 10:23am today, amd this is your first post.. So, I would suggest you go sift through the wiki, watch a few of the dev update vids, check Jahlon's content and his Ashes101 website. I'd also suggest not coming across in the manner you have in this post, and to be a bit more friendly in voicing concerns and dislikes in order to have an actual conversation on said subject. Most everyone here is willing to talk about a wide range of topics provided you don't come across as demanding and rude, brother. You can also just tell me to F off, etc. and that'd be fine to. :)
    Ya I just joined the forum but I know of all the posts and info you just said. I follow this game and every other MMO like a hawk. It makes no difference, you can support the game by preordering it if they chose box price. That would’ve been more than sufficient. It’s not necessary to need support though limited time FOMO cosmetic MTX. If you couldn’t care less about cosmetic skins then you are ignoring a major portion of the game. Why even award any visual armor? Let’s go BDO style where nothing you equip will change your appearance. Why not right? If you don’t care about cosmetics. I want to pay for any ability to change how I look, otherwise it’s just a default costume. Is that a good direction for the game? Because that’s the direction it will go as they see the money coming in from cosmetic MTX. New world is already doing it. The game has suffered in so many ways and there is such a lack of content and massive lack of visual diversity with in game weapons and armor yet every week they are adding tons of armor and weapon sets to the cosmetic MTX shop. If the direction of MMOs is to no longer aware meaningful visual progression then we have literally downgraded back to the 90s when the original MMOs didn’t have the capacity to change your look.

    I mean, just because I don't care about cosmetics, doesn't mean I won't use them if they're available in my inventory. Their importance takes a back seat compared to other stuff, for me. I'm planning to focus mostly on PvP, and I could care less what I look like. It doesn't matter to me while I'm beating people's asses. In WoW I tried to look as bunk/jank/stupid as possible with transmogs while hitting like a tank. It was rewarding to look like bottom of the barrel garbage, but putting up brutal numbers in terms of damage output.

    For me, though, purchasing V+ was more about testing and giving feedback during alpha/beta tests. Not the cosmetics. I would still have paid that price if the skins weren't offered, because that's how I feel about this game.

    I don't believe all the FOMO bs being talked about, and honestly don't see how someone catches FOMO over cosmetics, unless they're just that shallow. And I don't see the issue with buying cosmetics. It comes down to the simple facts that: It's not your money, you didn't earn it. Intrepid offers this/these skins for $X amount so people buy them because they can/want to. What do you care how and why people spend their own money?

    I don't see how any of the cosmetic stuff negatively impacts anything gamewise.
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    Because I don't care about "visual progression" in MMOs. Never have, never will. Almost every other aspect of an MMO is more important to me than the visual progression.
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  • I had a meme for this!

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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2021
    There are cosmetics you can earn in-game you can’t buy in the store. The cosmetics in the store and the ones you earn in game are separated. So you can’t avoid the visual progression earned in game by just buying micro transactions. Your entire premise is wrong.

    Frankly I think at least 75% of the cosmetics in the store are unappealing. I’d even be embarrassed to wear some of them. Some are awesome and I bought them. It’s all subjective and a matter of taste.

    I suspect many people who care about visual progression will look with disdain on store cosmetics. The concerns in the OP are meritless.
     
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  • Noaani wrote: »
    This has turned in to some misguided players thinking that appearance is the point of MMO's, when in fact it is not.

    I am pretty apathetic about the AoC cosmetic shop as I have come to accept that this is just going to be the way it is... But to say "players thinking that appearance is the point of MMO's, when in fact it is not" is a pretty "misguided" statement in itself.

    There are many reasons why people play MMOs... and visual progression can definitely be one of those reasons. Is it or should it be the main reason why someone plays Ashes of Creation? Maybe... maybe not. That's up to each individual player and the goals they have when playing the game.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    @Samson

    The reasons for the game existing and the reasons players play the game are not the same thing.

    I never once made any suggestion or assumption as to why people may play an MMO, only as to why MMO's are made - or as I said, the point of MMO's.

    To mistake these two notions (the reason something exists and the reason someone uses a thing) is misguided.

    MMO's are not made to be fashion showcases.

    If someone wants to use it as one, more power to them, but they do not get to complain if the game doesn't conform to their particular use case.
  • OverthrowOverthrow Member
    edited December 2021
    Samson wrote: »
    There are many reasons why people play MMOs... and visual progression can definitely be one of those reasons.
    I agree with you here, otherwise this thread would never have been created. However, the OP suggests that cosmetics will ruin Ashes of Creation because strict visual progression is essential to the player experience. I don't think this is supported.

    In past and current MMOs the community lists of grievances never bring up visual progression. I'd be surprised if you could find a content creator where that is their main concern with a given game. There are always other, more pressing issues at stake in the player community. New World has a cosmetic cash shop and that is the least of the community's concerns. WoW has a cosmetic cash shop and the primary complaint regarding that is that the cash shop cosmetics are objectively higher quality [something that Intrepid assures us will not happen]. Lack of visual progression probably isn't in any community's top 5 list of grievances. They are more interested in gameplay and balancing.

    I notice that no one protesting a cosmetic cash shop mentions it is a necessary monetization option. Big Money. Sure, it would be great if a cosmetic shop didn't exist and all of these appearances are game rewards, but there are financial reasons it is included. I think the majority of the community knows this as it is a standard practice in many multiplayer games.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The entire purpose of playing an MMO is the progression of your character both in terms of skill and power and also their armor and how they look.

    That is entirely opinion. The entire purpose of playing MMORPGs for me has always been challenging group content and a living world.

    Character progression is just a carrot on the stick. The numbers may increase, but you start the next tier in about the same place you were at the start of the last tier. That is not progression, that is the illusion of progression. Nearly every game does a stat squish at some point which drives that point home.

    I would play an MMORPG that is just raid bosses, open world PvP, and a cosmetic cash shop with no story or leveling. So long as the PvP is balanced, and the bosses are good, you don't even need gear or leveling.

    Of course, for Ashes, I don't want the MMORPG I just described to be the reality. I am just saying I would play that and be happy. In fact, if instead of having loot, they had DPS meter leaderboards. Seeing my name higher on the board would be all the reward I need.

    I say this to point out that we all play these games for different reasons. Some of those reasons overlap, some don't. The industry has clearly decided that cosmetic cash shops are the best way to make an MMORPG viable in the current market. If you don't like that, there are a few good games with no cash shops around. Mortal Online 2 for example.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Some people get upset over the strangest things
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Some people get upset over the strangest things

    Is it all peaches and cream for you, Sir Chancelot One One?

    Ashes is just bowling the perfect game?
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited December 2021
    Some people get upset over the strangest things

    Cake flavored Oreos. At some point it’s like ‘wtf!?just make Oreos.’

    … or is that just me?

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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Cake flavored Oreos. At some point it’s like ‘wtf!?just make Oreos.’

    … or is that just me?

    Sounds good though. I would at least try it.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Hehe - they are actually pretty good, but you have the draw the line at some point. Same reason Coke's new CEO slashed their product offering in half. RIP Tab.
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  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Some people get upset over the strangest things

    Is it all peaches and cream for you, Sir Chancelot One One?

    Ashes is just bowling the perfect game?

    I mean, it's not a game yet.... So it's hard to call it a strike if they haven't shot their shot. Judging them right now is like judging a bowler for what pound ball he grabbed and not knowing what he's going to do with it.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I mean, it's not a game yet.... So it's hard to call it a strike if they haven't shot their shot. Judging them right now is like judging a bowler for what pound ball he grabbed and not knowing what he's going to do with it.

    Yeah, I am not saying I agree with OP on this, but I am saying I have my share of criticisms for Ashes.

    I can understand the frustration of wanting a game to just change a few things, and then it would be perfect. There are so many times when a few simple tweaks would make a huge difference, but they never get made and games die or just become something I don't want to play.

    Unfortunately for OP, he is asking for something that is like rearranging the planets. It's just too big an ask at this point.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • You have to unlock the cosmetic in game before being able to wear whatever you purchased as a MTX
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2021
    Looking good is part of an MMO. Standing out is an absolute driving urge for many players... in whatever facet they choose.
  • I would prefer box cost, increased mothly sub and expansion cost than a cosmetic shop.
    But if they want to fill up the world with sparkly lions and weird things at launch day, it's their choice.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Marcet wrote: »
    I would prefer box cost, increased mothly sub and expansion cost than a cosmetic shop.
    But if they want to fill up the world with sparkly lions and weird things at launch day, it's their choice.

    So would I, but that ship has sailed. I also don't think a $50 a month sub would be as profitable as the cash shop, assuming everyone who was going to play was crazy enough to pay that.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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