Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
YESSS!!! This one's mine! Baggsies!
I knew it would take a turn... I just didn't think this would be it.
This is honestly slightly too complex given Ashes style at the moment. But on the other hand it is overdramatic enough and divergent enough from said style I think would suit cash shop nicely.
I kind of hope the dye system is really fleshed out and includes accessories like instruments. There are a ton of cosmetics in games that flop due to one color choice not fitting people's style.
I did not make it.
https://gamepress.gg/sinoalice/weapon/dragon-harp-silence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINoALICE
Most cosmetic i bought were for mounts, pets, carravan/boats, or buildings i rarely build them for the outfit itself even tough i did a few time cause some looked nice.
Last time I went here, we couldn't post. I wanted to talk about this specific matter for a while. I'm glad I paid attention to the newsletter this time (orcs and trolls ! Finally !
I played all type of games, but the MMORPG genre struck me hard with WoW. I could dissert about why people wrongly think the genre fell and the golden age of MMOs is over. I'd be on point with the discussion as it's linked but I'd probably loose everybody with the biggest and the greatest of all the walls of text
I've spent quite a few time tossing brain power on cash shops & MMOs mostly because, and even if I'm a PvP player at heart, I do like to PvE, to explore and to semi-RP which include char customization, our main concern here.
Each time a new game is announced and I see the famous "don't worry, cash shop is cometics only !" I sigh.
Well, no matter how brilliant they might be, ideas are just that. Since many in this thread asked for a viable alternative, let me give it a try here while keeping in mind what you and the others have said
My concerns are : if there is a cosmetic piece of gear I missed and would like to use it as I didn't know about the monthly sale sooner. No way around, I simply cannot have it anymore. I pay the price for not knowing a game that is far from being out is selling limited stuff. I admit there is not many better alternatives to keep Intrepid up and running with serenity until release. Still, this design remain flawed.
We don't know what our characters will look like, how we will want to look like. However, I couldn't care less about a cosmetic I think I won't ever want to use. FOMO has a thin grip on me, I don't collect just for the sake of it.
Put aside that we only buy promises for now (I do actually think Intrepid will deliver), they sold these packages the past 2 or 3 years I believe, at $375 for the outfits ? Now it makes me grind my teeth. I'm not even wealthy enough to afford one.
I've found about the price tag just now. Litteraly half of my paycheck. I was expecting 10 or 20 bucks, not a kidney lol. But whatever, let's move on.
Why these cosmetics can't/won't return to sale ? This alone would solve part of the strife.
We're talking about how a cosmetic cash shop is an actual inconvenience for a fair amount of players. But how much players ?
Go see FF14 (or BDO, or GW2, or TESO, or WoW etc) on main cities, see how many DO care about their appearences. In any online game with decent character customization, put a main hub where people can meet and you'll see them gather and interact with each other. They'll be logged-in all day, every day. They are not a small amount and they display how populated hubs/cities are -hence how a game is. It straight up shows visually.
I'd go as far as to argue there are more players carring about their look than not as it mirrors reality. Fashion matters in any social environment, community. We know many more people play video games compared to 15 years ago (when video games truly rose up in the common mind with WoW), from young kids to grandpas and grandmas through movie stars claiming loud and clear they love their MMORPGs (and so on and so forth).
A truckload of new players are here to have social interactions within a different setting than the real life. Beating monsters ? Yeah sure, who doesn't like a good adventure too ? But with friends and the many potential new encounters to stumble on all around, the very heart of MMORPGs.
They do contribute to every aspect of the game. It's not by standing still on a city that you acquire your cosmetics.
Now, what are cosmetics & how does it matter ?
Simply put : cosmetics = graphics = art. Art has no intrinsic value. Only one you are willing to give, it's subjective.
Graphics matters more and more in video games. Triple A companies understood that Ô too well that they now rest on their laurels gameplay-wise and mainly focus their efforts in better graphics. And the broader audience buys. Their goal is to make as much money as possible with as little effort as possible. They've found the golden goose and try to squeeze it all they can, so much that states and countries had to step in with the loot box situation.
So yeah, cash shop cosmetics are no small talk and will come back up again and again.
Apparently, @StevenSharif said that in-game cosmetics would be on par with cash shop in term of quality, if not better (I'd need an actual quote on this, but this'll do for now I guess).
"- Unlike in the cash shop, we've put gold all over the in-game cosmetics ! It's better !
- But I'd like the more sober one-
- GOLD EVERYWHERE ! MUCH BETTER !"
This is my own made-up quote (just in case, y'know) to illustrate that "better" has no real meaning when it comes to cosmetics. Again, subjective. It's the same, or it's not.
It is indeed a higher barrier to entry. However, by spending more "obligatory" money, we ensure everybody gets more content, which include customization items (do you know communism? lol). And since in this scenario there is no cash shop, everybody can find said content in-game.
But again it's too late to change... or is it ?
On a side note : with a cosmetic cash shop, a dev team have a better incentive to put work on cosmetics as it generates a constant stream of revenue. They want to keep it coming. So yes, I'm all for a cosmetic cash shop actually. Just not in its current form.
It's a lot of guesswork since it's about revamping a widly used monetization system in gaming and I'm not sure as to what is already in AoC or is planned to be, but I should still be roughly relevant. Bear with me
Let's try to make everyone happy.
----
The only cash shop in ANY game I would deem close to perfect is Warframe's. I should say I haven't played it for years, I might be out-of-date. Also, "Close to perfect" because they still sell a few cash shop exclusives AFAIK (teeth grinding intensifies).
With such cash shop, you would have 2 separate economies; one we acquire in-game (gold) and a premium -bought with real money- one (Ember). From the cash shop, you acquire Embers and cosmetics.
In-game, no item can be bought by golds and Embers. It's one or the other to avoid to put a real money price on in-game acquired only items.
One of my main concern it to keep it as immersive as possible. You see it and would like to have it ? Noneed to think about your credit card straight away. In-game only means are possible if you're willing to put some effort.
Most of the in-game cosmetics wont cost much (up until higher tier content) so anyone can make Embers, bit by bit.
Give a non cash shop player a chance to earn these cosmetics through in-game means and complaints will drastically reduce.
All cosmetics are turned into schematics (more on that right after). Some are cash shop only, some are in-game only.
They are all tradable for other schematics and/or Embers only. No fixed price.
As for the already claimed packages and the next ones containing schematics, they'd come with all the required materials to craft them (and the schematic it comes with only). Or it's a ready-to-claim schematic, "right-click -> use" and here you go. It doesn't change how the past and current sales works, only add future possibilities.
Now, I'm kinda confused about packages. I'm not sure if these will ever come back, or their content as separate purchases. Or if the costumes will actually come back, just not as costumes but separate pieces of cosmetic gear that can form a complete set, or be paired with whatever you want, available for all later on (I think I've read someone say so ?).
If it's the latter, everything's fine ! If not, let me grind my teeth a little more.
I've read the whole thread, but there's too much infos and I want to submit my wall of text to you asap.
Anyway.
Why Schematics ?
It adds new game loops tied to premium economy and money/material sinks.
1) They'd allow people to trade them before thinking about crafting and binding them to account/character.
2) They can be fully integrated in-game with the crafting system or something else.
- Are they crafted by players? Then same as with "gameplay" pieces of gear, you need the right job and materials.
- Or dedicated NPCs ? On forge/tailor shops, you bring your materials, you pay the NPC with said amount of gold and they start working.
Now for how long do they need to work on it ? Is it instant ?
Or -and I'll pretty much take it from Warframe- they need 24 to 72h to finish it ? It builds up anticipation and adds value to the final product. You could reduce the time it takes by giving Embers at 1 Ember per 1 hour (yay money sink).
And why not add it visually, with an NPC actually working on the forge/tailor shop in its corner, the one you give Embers to speed things up.
To go a little further (because why not ?) : let's add the possibility to turn cosmetics back into schematics with an Ember and material cost (did I tell you about sink ?). As you do so with the same cosmetic, it degrade. At some point, indicated in its tooltip, say 5 times, you can't do it anymore. Its degradation rate makes it cost less.
Only that rare item "Sleeping dragon's mucus" (whatever, you name it) can resore one point or all of it. You can either buy it with Embers or thanks to RNGod find it in-game on select mobs.
How and where to trade ? As for the Auction House I'm on the fence.
In Warframe there's no AH and Digital Extreme won't implement it (rightfully so IMO) despite the numerous threads over the years. You cannot trade for raw materials or IG money, which drastically limit its potential usefulness. For the tradable items, it's happening in the trading chat with items / premium money.
As for weapons and armors specifically, you trade blueprints and parts, not the whole crafted things which are bound to character.
I like the fact that you have to interact and bater for what you want instead of puting it on the AH for a week with its fixed price and forget about it until it's sold. Especially because it's tied to real money. If you lose patience when actively advertising for your goods, chances are your might lower the price.
However, one major difference is Warframe is instance based, not open world, so no travel time. You're always a few clicks away from trades. Having to potentially cross half of the game world is inconvenient to say the least.
The only solution I came up with so far is a bit of a stretch and would require a bit of dev time.
In FF14 you have retainers, NPCs you own with their own names (so nobody knows to whom they belong to) through which you can sell items on the market board (AH). You can only interact with them at set places.
Let's concider retainers in AoC. You hire them, say per month (IG money sink), and name them (anonymity for the player). They're only about premium goods and are a direct extension of the player's interface (wherever one can be in the game) with their own trading chat in which you advertise under their name.
Maybe this specific chat falls under the market node system ? In which case you'll have to manually place your retainer in a specific town. Whant to move them ? They have travel time to prevent one from spamming every nodes every minute. Also, you move them, you pay some fees tied to travel time and/or node importence you send them to (IG money sink). They don't work and spend energy wandering around for free !
Where are the Embers stored ? Let's assume they are not stored but simply displayed on the player's money bag. Noneed to over-complicate things, the retainer can use them just like that. Embers come and go as you trade.
However, the schematics they sell have to be in a personnal storage, not on player's inventory.
If you're interested in buying someone else's good, you /w the retainer with yours in retainer's trading chat. How many are you willing to pay for it ? How much the owner want for it ? You'll have to barter. Once you both agree on the exchange, you right-click the other retainer's name and select "open trade window".
You put goods and/or Embers, the other retainer too. Both happy, you validate and click "exchange". Embers into the money bag, schematics in personnal storage.
In all that, retainers don't even have to be rendered in-game, they may just be an interface giving a pseuydonyme for the player and access to the premium trading system.
Ooooor they are rendered in-game, we see them in their dedicated spot on the market place in the town we've placed them... and can be customized : more cosmetics (retainer's specific or not) to trade.
Bonus point : you can make a phone app out of it
An important part in Warframe's economy flow is about armors' (let's keep its designation simple) availability. Some become unavailable in-game for an extensive periode, between a year and three usually, and become available again for between a year three, and so on.
It creates scarcity and allow players to have an active role in the premium economy.
Let me give you an exemple.
I extensively played Warframe for 2 years and stopped when some changes didn't suit me. I tried to go back every now and then. One of those times, I tried to sell a Loki Prime (armor) Blueprint + its 3 parts. It sold surprisingly fast for 150P ! A little higher than the pricing I was used to... Only to find out 5 minutes later it wasn't obtainable in-game anymore since a year. I could've got away with it for 500 to 1.000P ! It was pretty common when I was an active player. Well, my bad.
Scarcity and rotation are good.
So that random cheap cosmetic chest piece from that random mob can see its price go up when it's time for it to vanish from loot tables for a year or two.
Same with seasonal event cosmetics of course. That summer cosmetic ? Well it's winter, you'd better have your Embers ready.
Another key feature in this loop is about discounts.
Warframe has a randomized daily login reward system. Among minor materials and small amount of IG money, you can -sort of- hit the jackpot in the form of a -25%, -50% and more importantly -75% discount on premium money packages you can buy, any of them, effective for the next 24h.
Hooooo yes, they want you to have their discounts. If you haven't played for quite a while, you can be sure you'll have a discount when you log-in.
I played with a group of friends, and when one would hit that -50% you could be sure all'd know about it. -75% was an instant stop to the cash shop. I fell for it more than once. I was nothing else but happy afterward.
I'm not a big fan of daily rewards, or anything daily related. But whatever, daily login rewards are "ok". My strong feelings are more about in-game daily chores.
Googling "Ashes of creation daily login" right now, I see it mentionned. Just in case, let's try to come up with something else.
Chests ? Loot tables ? You could find one of the magic tickets just like that, randomly. Yay, done.
It'd just have to be picked up automatically :
- displayed on the screen so you wouldn't miss it.
- to avoid someone to open a chest with one inside and try to sell it : "I just found a -75% in a chest. 50.000g and I tell you where.". Or worst, the same situation except someone pay and there's no ticket in the chest.
Aaaaaand that's it ! What do you all think about it ? Does it hold ? Is it consistent ?
Cosmetics are all integrated and obtainable in-game, with a healthy premium economy, with their own game loops. Players happy, Intrepid money.
Well, wether it makes for a healthy premium economy or not is up to cash shop pricing of schematics & Embers, IG drop rates and premium money sinks.
I'm good with concepts, not numbers
Ho yes ! And Intrepid could add NFT cosme- *get slapped in the face*
P.S. : @daveywavey the lute boxes cracked me up
An outfit is not $375. An Outfit is $20.
$375 gets you into Alpha 2. Along with some additional perks.
When we get in-game cosmetics, if there are some you feel should look better, then voice your concerns and express what you think should be changed. They have been receptive to feedback.
I also think voicing your concern is what you should do when there is a cosmetic look that was available in the store but can't find something close in game.
There's a little more that just that if I'm not mistaken.
On the $375 package page :
"In addition to the cosmetic items granted with the Voyager Plus Pre-Order Pack at the time of purchase, you will also be entitled to purchase future monthly cosmetics as add-ons for the Voyager Plus Level Pre-Order Pack and below. Pre-Order Pack cosmetics are only available during the month they are featured, and will never be available again for purchase.
In order to own a Pre-Order Pack's cosmetics, you must either purchase the Pre-Order Pack during the month that the cosmetic is featured or have purchased that level pack or higher in a previous month in order to buy the cosmetic as an add-on. Kickstarter and Summer Backers will always be able to purchase Pre-Order Pack cosmetics as add-ons."
So you first have to buy a $375 package if you want the future outfits for only $20.
I'm not arguing wether it's fair or not, I just want to be sure I understood it right this time
That's a problem indeed.
To be honest, even if I've put thoughts on that win/win cosmetic system for years now, I was kinda stuck at the trade part due to the "potentially have to cross the world for a simple trade" part. I just remembered about FF14's retainers and came up with my own version on the fly, while writing. It sure must be riddled with holes !
I always liked to do things on my own in games. The less help I receive and succeed, the happier I am. I Once bought some cosmetic gear in BDO, yet it had no other way but to come with extra stats. I just felt... dirty ? It spoiled my fun. What could have been obtained in-game was arbitrarily put behind a paywall (or so it feels to me).
P2W mechanics and ways achieve it are far from being the first thing that comes to my mind.
It's nice to submit the whole thing to someone else for once, to notice the quirks and have the ball thrown back
So, I see 2 options here.
1) y Embers can't be traded for more or less than y. You don't buy a rush or a dungeon loot with Embers only.
A bare minimum is set to xxxx Embers when one trade for a schematic, set to all schematics. xxxx being dependent on the schematic tier/rarity/source (open world drop, world bosses, easy dungeons, higher end content, cash shop, etc).
In that scenario : someone has for, say, $200 worth of Embers (around 25.000 Embers) and whant to buy that awesome sword from that High-end raid and ask a guild. Even then, that guild will have to put schematics for an equal value -even the cheapest ones at their minimum price. The trade isn't worthy, the P2W buyer still got 25.000 worth of Embers goods.
Unless you spot another way to circumvent ? If not, that's the option I'd use as it only change one parameter; the no fixed price part for a minimum one, prices can still varie.
2) Get rid of the retainer trade chat (well, retainers altogether, really) and straight-up put schematics on the AH (still Embers only) with biddings only, a minimum time and the inability to take it back until the bid timer is over.
You can't guarantee who will win the auctions nor its price, so no private trades.
I don't really like this solution as it get rid of the barter. I feel a fully integrated premium economy should have its special place and loops.
From what I've seen from @StevenSharif interviews (with Asmongold mostly), he does seem to put himself in players' shoes.
The issue is they can't put a graphist/model designer behind every request.
IMO, the easiest way to address this is to tackle the root cause. Hence the wall of text
Now I don't necessarily hope Intrepid will adopt my idea. Again, ideas are just that. How many people around the world got some, even the most brilliant ones just to see them fall into oblivion ?
I do think I'm on to something interesting, I'd like to push it as far as possible and polish it. If it works at least on paper but falls on deaf ears, well too bad, I won't make a scene about it and move on
However, once the game launches, there is no need to own any pre order packs in order to buy cosmetics. You just buy what you want. Embers are a currency that is only able to be traded between you and Intrepid. There will not be any mechanism at all to trade them or anything bought with them to other players.
This is a core aspect of the game, and will not change. You may think you have the best idea in the world, but if it involved or allows for either embers or cosmetics bought from the store to end up on an account that did not purchase them from Intrepid, it is simply not going to happen.
There is not much to oppose to a fully integrated cosmetic cash shop with its premium economy that gets rid of P2W black market.
I mean beside "No, because it is how it is".
Sure, it's currently planed as such. That's why I make a suggestion. May I remind you things do change, even with AoC ? Remember AoC Apocalypse ? Not planed before, yet they did it.
Nothing is set in stone.
It's no minor optional suggestion in which you would respond : It's fun for the all players (all cosmetics for everybody), adds additional game loops on top of (mostly) already existing systems (gameplay variety), brings MORE money than with the current design for Intrepid, and prevent any rogue P2W situation. For a minimal dev cost. So it serves a wider purpose and is beneficial to all parties involved.
This core aspect is to prevent unwanted P2W. Solved.
Bring me a quote from anyone at Intrepid that say it can't and won't change under any circumstances. I haven't found so far.
Right now you are just naysaying and contradicting yourself.
Intrepid gave a pledge that the game will not be pay to win, and then clarified that anything you can buy with cash that affects the in game economy (ie, something you can buy for money and then sell for gold) is pay to win.
If Intrepid implement your idea, the game is pay to win. No need to pretend otherwise, and no means of punishing players that participate in this pay to win.
If they do not implement it, it means the only pay to win is restricted to the black market (making it significantly less prolific), and it means Intrepid are able to take action on those that are involved in this black market.
At this point, you need to realize that this is a straight up non-starter.
It will not happen.
It’s more probable that they change all races to ponies and make this My Little Pony Online than for that to change.
Maude Ranger.
I would probably disclaimer that to "While Steven is in charge". If Ashes is sold to Gamigo, we'll be seeing P2W before our heads stop spinning.
I would be careful with those statements ....
Even Stephen can't foresee what will happen to his game one or three years after its release ...
Will he really abandon it after dropping millions and millions of Dollars into his project, instead
of making it F2P and adding P2W stuff into the shop ?
Keep in mind: Even the hardest stone can be crushed to dust ...
Just my humble opinion
Kind regards
If that happens, the game will die though.
Coming onto the forums when a game is still fairly early in development, and talking about how it might fail is not a productive discussion. So, it's a waste of everyone's time for you to bring it up.
"But, but what if a giant meteor hits the Earth and the shockwave sends out an EMP that destroys the world's electronics?!"
I mean, what other crazy doomsday subjects did you want to opine about?
It's more like I mixed things up, forgot a step or two, the result doesn't makes sense lol : Is this what you are talking about @Noaani ? If so, then you're right, my apologies to you
If not then please be my guest ! Explain, give a concrete example.
On that, we are on the same page. Any form of P2W is a no-go. That's why I'm trying to make this work while keeping the Gold economy and the Ember economy completely split from each other with rigid rules on the Ember side.
(Edit : I mean, not completely split if further mechanics like the schematics and their craft are added; material and gold sinks)
I should add that I'm not just trying to add that separate economy, I'd like it to actively contribute to the game. Otherwise we'd just have to do this :
- Items only have a gold or a Ember value, not both.
- Cosmetics are Embers, anything else is Gold.
- y Embers can't be traded for more or less than y.
- Cosmetics have a fixed Ember price.
- Scarcity, rotation of availability.
- Spontaneous and personal discounts through login reward and/or IG drops, to incentivize players in buying Embers.
- Intrepid set the right price for each cosmetic to avoid a dramatic inflation or deflation.
Every cosmetics can be available in-game to trade, with no way to P2W (unless I'm overlooking something again ?!). It works but that's not fun
No entry fee is good so long as they can properly manage the bot accounts that will inevitably result from it.
Subscription with a trial period that either ends after X amount of days or at a specific level is good for those who want to try the game out while also providing stable income for the development of the game.
The only worry I have about a cash shop is that it **always** happens in MMOs that a "level boost" or some sort of bonus that isn't cosmetic such as inventory space or some other mechanic buff is implemented. It is the laziest and most detached way that a suit can increase profits from whales. So long as the company keeps the MBAs away from the development and continuation of the game then we should be golden. Of course there is always the chance that once the suits see that cash shop cosmetics are profitable, that they reroute development to focus on making more cash shop only cosmetics than making earnable cosmetics. In a way it's the other side to the cash shop cosmetic sword.
Take it from someone who has seen it happen literally every time: SWG, CoH, EQ2, WoW, GW2, and many more I can't be bothered to name. Sure, some of them might be around but they are a shell of what they once were. You let that fox in the hen house and your game will crumble. Might take years, pending the size of the MMO before the fall, but you will lose the confidence of your audience and your profits with it. It only stands to keep your game on life support and the MBAs eventually move on to greener pastures because in the end they simply don't give a shit about the longevity of the game, "fun", or keeping its essence intact. They literally only care about profits.
The irony is that if they simply would have focused on the long term, not short term growth (as is usual with all corporate thought) and keeping their core audience happy, then the games I mentioned would never be in the state they are in now. It still boggles my mind how with all the previous examples of this happening, academic economics still haven't caught on. If you take out the young man's job hopping mentality and focus on the project/product at hand, not what experience you can get before jumping ship, then you will find yourself at the helm of an impressive team with an impressive level of profits. Sure, growth may stagnate at times, but with no risk there is no reward. Yes, I know how hypocritical that sounds but now a days keeping things traditional is a risk in and of itself.
Anyway, rant over.
They will lose their players if they go back on the “NO P2W” pledge that is the core of the game. I think they’re not stupid enough to do that.