You the one need to stop. Please.
Gear disparity in Node wars and guild wars are not significantly different than it is in other forms of combat with mixed groups of casuals and hardcores - especially not Node wars.
You can't assume who will join a caravan battle because anyone can join.
You don't understand the game design.
My man, guild wars and node wars don’t just happen in one spot at one specific time. They take place anywhere and over an extended period of time. This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.
This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.
It might just be me, but there's this pearl-clutching 'won't anyone think of the children!?' undertone to this argument that smacks of helplessness. If it's just me, it might be worth pointing out before it becomes a thing. All players have agency in these situations:
- If you're flagged as part of a guild war, you're a member of a guild in a war with another guild. If you don't like the impact of that in your day to day, then you can choose to leave that guild
- If there's a node war going on, then all players need to understand the consequences of that war, adjust your expectations in that node, or go explore someplace else for the time being
- Or, just lean into the conflict - and be mindful of what you're carrying so you don't drop it. If you die, you die.
Either way, it's a game - no one is a victim here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
It's not just you.
I love to solo, but...
If you are in a WAR, you might wanna run with some friends.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.
It might just be me, but there's this pearl-clutching 'won't anyone think of the children!?' undertone to this argument that smacks of helplessness. If it's just me, it might be worth pointing out before it becomes a thing. All players have agency in these situations:
- If you're flagged as part of a guild war, you're a member of a guild in a war with another guild. If you don't like the impact of that in your day to day, then you can choose to leave that guild
- If there's a node war going on, then all players need to understand the consequences of that war, adjust your expectations in that node, or go explore someplace else for the time being
- Or, just lean into the conflict - and be mindful of what you're carrying so you don't drop it. If you die, you die.
Either way, it's a game - no one is a victim here.
Of course that running with groups is beneficial in a war. However, that’s not what the post is about. The post is about the fact that if the gear power is too great, a hardcore player might be able to roam solo while a casual might not be able to. A hardcore would be able to roam solo and if he runs into another solo player that he is at war with, he would be able to fight while the casual would be forced to just accept defeat (if the gear power is too great). In that case the game’s design would force casual players into very specific gameplay loops that they might not enjoy. These issues could be addressed if gear power differences weren’t so great.
That’s the whole point of this post… If gear difference between hardcore and casual players is too great, the casual players might be forced into gameplay that they don’t enjoy or be asked to just take a beating and that could cause them to quit.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
It is what it's about when you bring up people in WARS playing solo.
You can state your premise as often as you like. It will remain unconvincing.
The devs are going to balance gear disparity during the play tests.
And they will do so in a manner that has the majority of casuals feeling comfortable because the expectation is that casuals will be the largest population in the game compared to hardcores.
But, also, there will be a variety of ways for casuals to acquire competitive gear besides just grinding the game solo.
Despite all the doomsday scenarios running through your mind.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is what it's about when you bring up people in WARS playing solo.
You should read my comment again. I explained how a hardcore player wouldn’t be subject to the same situation as a casual if gear difference is too big. Even if they went solo. And this applies to small groups as well… are casuals relegated and forced to look for hardcore babysitters to be able to go out?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
I don't need to read it again.
It remains irrelevant. I understood that the first time I read it.
If you are in a war - hardcore or casual - you should bring some friends with you.
And, AGAIN, hardcore babysitter is not the only way to mitigate the issue. There are a variety of ways for casuals to acquire gear that is competitive with what hardcores acquire besides trying to grind through the game solo and friendless.
Casual ≠ helpless.
Again with the victim vernacular. No one is being forced into anything. By logging in, this is something you signed up for. If it's not your cup of tea, then set it down and walk away.
Personally, I think the majority of players (regardless of type) will figure out the power equation and work to 'git gud' instead of cowering on the mat. In fact, I think there are a lot more MMO players starving for this exact kind of environment to play in that hasn't been around for a long, long time.
So...relax, they'll figure out the gear balance.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't need to read it again.
It remains irrelevant. I understood that the first time I read it.
If you are in a war - hardcore or casual - you should bring some friends with you.
And, AGAIN, hardcore babysitter is not the only way to mitigate the issue. There are a variety of ways for casuals to acquire gear that is competitive with what hardcores acquire besides trying to grind through the game solo and friendless.
Casual ≠ helpless.
You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses. I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.
@CROW3 The players might like the game, but they might not like getting destroyed due to gear power differences that are too great. You have to understand that if casuals don’t feel like they can play the game in small groups or solo because their gear sucks and they are too casual to get better gear and are getting destroyed because the better gear makes fights unwinnable, they will quit. AoC with its massive server cap (which implies that the game is designed for massive numbers) will not survive without casuals. So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.
So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.
Hmm - that's some interesting editing. Let me know when you're interested in having an intellectually honest conversation.
You said: “no one is being forced into anything” and “if it’s not your cup of tea, then set it down and walk away”. If casuals cannot fight back with a chance to win because the gear power disparity is insurmountable, then they are forced to get a babysitter or to try to partake in other gameplay. If not, you said that they should “set it down and walk away” - quit.
Where is the dishonest and intellectually lacking editing?
After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.
How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?
Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?
Aren't we all sinners?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses.
I don't think I stated that you asked for it. What you did was complain about the plight of solo casuals as if the only way for them to gain gear that makes them competitive with hardcores is to grind solo. Apparently, the only solution to that if the devs don't use your "solution", is for casuals to be babysat by hardcores.
I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.
Again, I didn't say you asked for solo gear acquisition.
You don't even need to as for the differences to not be too great because the devs will already balance that during playtests. As you've been told multiple times.
It is not I who misunderstands what you've written, it is you who cannot properly comprehend what I've written.
This is pure conjecture on your part, it's an opinion without data, without testing, without context. It's just you screaming into the sky and not actually hearing pretty much anything said as responses to your own 'discussion' thread.
So parsing my response and injecting your conjecture as part of that argument is just silly. I've clearly, and consistently conveyed the same basic points in every single response:
1. Gear will be appropriately adjusted based on testing
2. It is the player's responsibility to understand the game they are logging into
3. The game environment is biased toward a dangerous pvx, risk v. reward world, where players are challenged to rise to the occasion instead of the environment being softened
We can go back and forth till the cows come home, but own your own words.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.
How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?
Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?
It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.
In Ashes, will people get ganked enough for it to be an issue?
There will be plenty of PvP between the flagging system, guild wars, node wars, caravans etc. If your main option as a casual is to accept your defeat because gear disparity is too great, then the game is not fun. That's all there is to it.
And that's the impasse you're at. You're arguing with people who don't believe this is how it will be.
And it's true that they don't have a reason to believe that's how it will be. But even if it was, most of the people you're engaged with don't care, because that's what they explicitly want the game to be.
You'll have to rely on Intrepid to go beyond the expectation you have but that's only IF that's not the intention.
After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.
How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?
Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?
It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.
I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point. But be warned that the posters you are currently talking to, do not care. Not because they do not understand the numbers, but because generally, the outcome of the numbers is what they desire the game to be.
Let me put it another way for you.
Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses.
I don't think I stated that you asked for it. What you did was complain about the plight of solo casuals as if the only way for them to gain gear that makes them competitive with hardcores is to grind solo. Apparently, the only solution to that if the devs don't use your "solution", is for casuals to be babysat by hardcores.
I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.
Again, I didn't say you asked for solo gear acquisition.
You don't even need to as for the differences to not be too great because the devs will already balance that during playtests. As you've been told multiple times.
It is not I who misunderstands what you've written, it is you who cannot properly comprehend what I've written.
You still don’t get it. You understand that there is more gameplay to AoC than just getting gear, right? That means that solo or small group casuals could be attacked without much chance to fight back when they are doing some of the many solo or small group activities. That’s why you bringing up solo gear acquisition makes no sense when the post has nothing to do with gear acquisition.
Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.
Heh - you and I always have the ability to talk no matter how heated or pedantic the thread. Which I always enjoy.
There are a few assumptions you're making in this statement that are worth examining.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is pure conjecture on your part, it's an opinion without data, without testing, without context. It's just you screaming into the sky and not actually hearing pretty much anything said as responses to your own 'discussion' thread.
So parsing my response and injecting your conjecture as part of that argument is just silly. I've clearly, and consistently conveyed the same basic points in every single response:
1. Gear will be appropriately adjusted based on testing
2. It is the player's responsibility to understand the game they are logging into
3. The game environment is biased toward a dangerous pvx, risk v. reward world, where players are challenged to rise to the occasion instead of the environment being softened
We can go back and forth till the cows come home, but own your own words.
I’m totally in agreement that this needs to be tested. However, based data collected from years of MMOs it’s clear that gear power differences can sway the outcome of a battle to be very one sided if they are too great. It’s just how MMOs work.
1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
After 8 pages our dear friend @VmanGman still stuck with his original "20-30% of a character's power", it seems that the 40-50% Steven is aiming for might be too high for The Saviour of the Casuals.
How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?
Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?
It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.
I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point. But be warned that the posters you are currently talking to, do not care. Not because they do not understand the numbers, but because generally, the outcome of the numbers is what they desire the game to be.
Let me put it another way for you.
Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.
.
I understand that. Thanks for speaking up. I also know that the people posting in this thread against my suggestion are the minority and that the casuals that might quit if gear power disparities are too great are the majority. So I will keep advocating because AoC is the MMO I’ve always dreamt of and I don’t want it to die or lack in player base and funding.
Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.
Heh - you and I always have the ability to talk no matter how heated or pedantic the thread. Which I always enjoy.
There are a few assumptions you're making in this statement that are worth examining.
Honestly I would LOVE to be more nuanced about it, but of course it should be noted that I'm not actually supporting the OP that much here. This topic isn't that black and white, and @VmanGman isn't even concerned about the specific thing being complained about, it is, as you said, moreso a 'victim situation'.
Also, I probably can't easily clarify who I mean by 'most people', but it excludes Dygz (for reasons I can't say by rules), you (because you're pointing out a clear flaw without even addressing the direct point), James (who seems to be just trying to get the OP to see something), and I guess whatever I've seen from Noaani based on what was quoted.
The sentiment from the other data of other posters has been highly in the direction noted. I can give exact numbers if you want.
Speaking as a casual, and speaking only for myself, I am far more worried about playing a Tulnar and being an RPer than I am gear imbalance. And to be honest I'm not terribly worried about those two things Gear balance will get worked out. It will never make everyone 100% happy however, but it will be addressed. There is no need to dumb down any system for me. I've been playing games for over 10 years as filthy casual, so I don't think one more game is going to kill me.
From what I've seen in some threads, I have more fear of being ganked for playing a Tulnar than I do as a mere mortal casual player. And over the past 10 years I've grown used to being griefed on occasion for RPing - even on RP servers where the PVP bottom feeders with no skill go to grief people to make themselves feel superior.
If you are going to play an MMORPG at any level you have to remember the first rule: people online suck. Yep, pretty bitter and jaded but, I will argue realistic. But I am still here. There are always going to be some imbalances. As old ones are worked out, new ones will appear. It will always be an ongoing, imperfect thing. I plan on some solo play, and joining node battles, and caravans and all those dangerous things that I should avoid. I plan on dying a lot and losing things. Toward that end, I am trying to recruit friends and family who are a bit more hardcore and/or good at PVP - for reasons. I also plan on being careful about what I carry on my character. The one I do not expect, or want, is to be treated like a snowflake or child because I am a casual and therefore need something special.
I believe Steven has commented in past streams that gear and level disparity wont be huge, players around 10 levels apart wont be very far apart but obviously the higher level and more geared player will have the advantage. After launch whenever it is, as players reach max lvl after some time and begin min-maxing their end game gear we will see what the difference really is between a very high geared player and someone whos casual and 5-10 levels from max.
I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point.
Not gonna lie, i would be extremely interested in those numbers.
Sure, but bear in mind that these things are huge. Like, 40 page design document huge. I couldn't possibly give you an airtight data struct without revealing a ton of stuff about the development of my own project, which I'm not at liberty to do.
And as multiple people pointed out in previous posts, the entire premise is broken, it only makes sense if 40% is the distance between 'slightly better than stock gear' and 'Slightly less than best in slot gear'. Which isn't what Intrepid's aim is even given as. It's literally 'your character gets half their power from their gear'. That could easily mean:
Your base Constitution stat at level 50 is 75, and your additional Constitution stat from your gear is also 75.
Or it could mean 'In order to get past the average part of the calculation for damage, your character's naked strength would cause them to deal only half damage, so you will need gear to reach what we designed as full damage' (this is the way I know how to design things, you do it backward from 'intended full damage')
1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.
Your #2 & 3 assume that #1 is done poorly, and your conditional conclusions are one possible outcome based on that assumption. Again - all conjecture leaning toward a worst case scenario.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.
Your #2 & 3 assume that #1 is done poorly, and your conditional conclusions are one possible outcome based on that assumption. Again - all conjecture leaning toward a worst case scenario.
Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?
Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?
Absolutely.
That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.
The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open world PvX MMOs like AoC.
I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.
Comments
My man, guild wars and node wars don’t just happen in one spot at one specific time. They take place anywhere and over an extended period of time. This means that solo casual members of the guilds and nodes that are at war will be roaming the world and can be attacked solo without the corruption system being involved. Guild wars and node wars won’t always involve group gameplay because a member of said guild or node can roam the world solo during the duration of the war.
I understand the game design very well.
Edit: word
It might just be me, but there's this pearl-clutching 'won't anyone think of the children!?' undertone to this argument that smacks of helplessness. If it's just me, it might be worth pointing out before it becomes a thing. All players have agency in these situations:
- If you're flagged as part of a guild war, you're a member of a guild in a war with another guild. If you don't like the impact of that in your day to day, then you can choose to leave that guild
- If there's a node war going on, then all players need to understand the consequences of that war, adjust your expectations in that node, or go explore someplace else for the time being
- Or, just lean into the conflict - and be mindful of what you're carrying so you don't drop it. If you die, you die.
Either way, it's a game - no one is a victim here.
I love to solo, but...
If you are in a WAR, you might wanna run with some friends.
@Dygz @CROW3
Of course that running with groups is beneficial in a war. However, that’s not what the post is about. The post is about the fact that if the gear power is too great, a hardcore player might be able to roam solo while a casual might not be able to. A hardcore would be able to roam solo and if he runs into another solo player that he is at war with, he would be able to fight while the casual would be forced to just accept defeat (if the gear power is too great). In that case the game’s design would force casual players into very specific gameplay loops that they might not enjoy. These issues could be addressed if gear power differences weren’t so great.
That’s the whole point of this post… If gear difference between hardcore and casual players is too great, the casual players might be forced into gameplay that they don’t enjoy or be asked to just take a beating and that could cause them to quit.
You can state your premise as often as you like. It will remain unconvincing.
The devs are going to balance gear disparity during the play tests.
And they will do so in a manner that has the majority of casuals feeling comfortable because the expectation is that casuals will be the largest population in the game compared to hardcores.
But, also, there will be a variety of ways for casuals to acquire competitive gear besides just grinding the game solo.
Despite all the doomsday scenarios running through your mind.
You should read my comment again. I explained how a hardcore player wouldn’t be subject to the same situation as a casual if gear difference is too big. Even if they went solo. And this applies to small groups as well… are casuals relegated and forced to look for hardcore babysitters to be able to go out?
It remains irrelevant. I understood that the first time I read it.
If you are in a war - hardcore or casual - you should bring some friends with you.
And, AGAIN, hardcore babysitter is not the only way to mitigate the issue. There are a variety of ways for casuals to acquire gear that is competitive with what hardcores acquire besides trying to grind through the game solo and friendless.
Casual ≠ helpless.
Personally, I think the majority of players (regardless of type) will figure out the power equation and work to 'git gud' instead of cowering on the mat. In fact, I think there are a lot more MMO players starving for this exact kind of environment to play in that hasn't been around for a long, long time.
So...relax, they'll figure out the gear balance.
You should reread because you’re clearly not understanding… as proven above when you argued against something that I never argued for. I never asked for casuals to be able to grind gear solo… please read what I say before you blurt out responses. I never asked for solo gear acquisition… I only asked for gear power differences to not be too great so that casual players could stand a chance when they play the game solo or in small groups without needing a hardcore player babysitter.
@CROW3 The players might like the game, but they might not like getting destroyed due to gear power differences that are too great. You have to understand that if casuals don’t feel like they can play the game in small groups or solo because their gear sucks and they are too casual to get better gear and are getting destroyed because the better gear makes fights unwinnable, they will quit. AoC with its massive server cap (which implies that the game is designed for massive numbers) will not survive without casuals. So saying that casuals will just need to quit if they don’t like losing due to insurmountable gear power differences makes no sense.
Hmm - that's some interesting editing. Let me know when you're interested in having an intellectually honest conversation.
You said: “no one is being forced into anything” and “if it’s not your cup of tea, then set it down and walk away”. If casuals cannot fight back with a chance to win because the gear power disparity is insurmountable, then they are forced to get a babysitter or to try to partake in other gameplay. If not, you said that they should “set it down and walk away” - quit.
Where is the dishonest and intellectually lacking editing?
How would you classify gear being 40-50% of a character's power?
Would it be a "insurmountable gear power difference"?
Aren't we all sinners?
Again, I didn't say you asked for solo gear acquisition.
You don't even need to as for the differences to not be too great because the devs will already balance that during playtests. As you've been told multiple times.
It is not I who misunderstands what you've written, it is you who cannot properly comprehend what I've written.
This is pure conjecture on your part, it's an opinion without data, without testing, without context. It's just you screaming into the sky and not actually hearing pretty much anything said as responses to your own 'discussion' thread.
So parsing my response and injecting your conjecture as part of that argument is just silly. I've clearly, and consistently conveyed the same basic points in every single response:
1. Gear will be appropriately adjusted based on testing
2. It is the player's responsibility to understand the game they are logging into
3. The game environment is biased toward a dangerous pvx, risk v. reward world, where players are challenged to rise to the occasion instead of the environment being softened
We can go back and forth till the cows come home, but own your own words.
It remains to be tested, but yes it seems like a lot.
And that's the impasse you're at. You're arguing with people who don't believe this is how it will be.
And it's true that they don't have a reason to believe that's how it will be. But even if it was, most of the people you're engaged with don't care, because that's what they explicitly want the game to be.
You'll have to rely on Intrepid to go beyond the expectation you have but that's only IF that's not the intention.
I can crunch numbers for you and basically 'prove you right' if you want, at least to a point. But be warned that the posters you are currently talking to, do not care. Not because they do not understand the numbers, but because generally, the outcome of the numbers is what they desire the game to be.
Let me put it another way for you.
Most people you are discussing with would rather the game be niche, than to give casual players too much of a chance to stand up to hardcore players in combat.
You still don’t get it. You understand that there is more gameplay to AoC than just getting gear, right? That means that solo or small group casuals could be attacked without much chance to fight back when they are doing some of the many solo or small group activities. That’s why you bringing up solo gear acquisition makes no sense when the post has nothing to do with gear acquisition.
Heh - you and I always have the ability to talk no matter how heated or pedantic the thread. Which I always enjoy.
There are a few assumptions you're making in this statement that are worth examining.
I’m totally in agreement that this needs to be tested. However, based data collected from years of MMOs it’s clear that gear power differences can sway the outcome of a battle to be very one sided if they are too great. It’s just how MMOs work.
1. I agree with you.
2. Yes, and if casuals get destroyed over and over again because the gear power difference is too great, they will quit and the game will die. If you’re willing to let a game die just because “they knew what they signed up for”, I guess I can’t say much more.
3. Yes, they are challenged to rise to the occasion, but once again… if the gear power difference is too great, they might not be able to rise.
I understand that. Thanks for speaking up. I also know that the people posting in this thread against my suggestion are the minority and that the casuals that might quit if gear power disparities are too great are the majority. So I will keep advocating because AoC is the MMO I’ve always dreamt of and I don’t want it to die or lack in player base and funding.
Honestly I would LOVE to be more nuanced about it, but of course it should be noted that I'm not actually supporting the OP that much here. This topic isn't that black and white, and @VmanGman isn't even concerned about the specific thing being complained about, it is, as you said, moreso a 'victim situation'.
Also, I probably can't easily clarify who I mean by 'most people', but it excludes Dygz (for reasons I can't say by rules), you (because you're pointing out a clear flaw without even addressing the direct point), James (who seems to be just trying to get the OP to see something), and I guess whatever I've seen from Noaani based on what was quoted.
The sentiment from the other data of other posters has been highly in the direction noted. I can give exact numbers if you want.
Not gonna lie, i would be extremely interested in those numbers.
Aren't we all sinners?
From what I've seen in some threads, I have more fear of being ganked for playing a Tulnar than I do as a mere mortal casual player. And over the past 10 years I've grown used to being griefed on occasion for RPing - even on RP servers where the PVP bottom feeders with no skill go to grief people to make themselves feel superior.
If you are going to play an MMORPG at any level you have to remember the first rule: people online suck. Yep, pretty bitter and jaded but, I will argue realistic. But I am still here. There are always going to be some imbalances. As old ones are worked out, new ones will appear. It will always be an ongoing, imperfect thing. I plan on some solo play, and joining node battles, and caravans and all those dangerous things that I should avoid. I plan on dying a lot and losing things. Toward that end, I am trying to recruit friends and family who are a bit more hardcore and/or good at PVP - for reasons. I also plan on being careful about what I carry on my character. The one I do not expect, or want, is to be treated like a snowflake or child because I am a casual and therefore need something special.
Sure, but bear in mind that these things are huge. Like, 40 page design document huge. I couldn't possibly give you an airtight data struct without revealing a ton of stuff about the development of my own project, which I'm not at liberty to do.
And as multiple people pointed out in previous posts, the entire premise is broken, it only makes sense if 40% is the distance between 'slightly better than stock gear' and 'Slightly less than best in slot gear'. Which isn't what Intrepid's aim is even given as. It's literally 'your character gets half their power from their gear'. That could easily mean:
Your base Constitution stat at level 50 is 75, and your additional Constitution stat from your gear is also 75.
Or it could mean 'In order to get past the average part of the calculation for damage, your character's naked strength would cause them to deal only half damage, so you will need gear to reach what we designed as full damage' (this is the way I know how to design things, you do it backward from 'intended full damage')
Your #2 & 3 assume that #1 is done poorly, and your conditional conclusions are one possible outcome based on that assumption. Again - all conjecture leaning toward a worst case scenario.
Isn’t that what development and alphas are for? To discuss these possible issues and make sure that they are addressed?
Absolutely.
That’s all I’m trying to do. The problem is that when I bring this clear issue up (that casuals will quit if they can’t play the game due to gear power disparities that are too great) I’m told all sorts of things such as: they can group up to survive, the game isn’t for everyone, they can do other casual content, I want to be rewarded for my time etc.
The bottom line is that if casuals find themselves losing due to gear power disparities that are too great and out of their reach, they will quit. This is how MMOs have always worked and especially open world PvX MMOs like AoC.
I’m not saying all of this just because I don’t want to work for my gear… I want to do that. I want to play AoC, but the game needs the casual masses and my post tries to make sure that they will continue to play.
Edit: word