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Dev Discussion #40 - Enemy Indicators

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  • No indicators at all unless i click on the enemy or hover with my mouse on the enemy. For players i would prefer to not have any indicators at all even when hover/clicking so there's a mystery if you want to duel someone rather than having high level players praying on low level players.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Old school indicators. I definitely want some info but I think it should be very basic.

    1. Level
    2. Color (for at a glance danger level)
    3. Elemental properties (if it has any)

    That's it really. I don't think the info should alter for group size just to keep things consistent and to maintain at least some mystery. Anything other than the most basic info will just encourage people to quick scan and move on without engaging anything.

  • I think having a system that shows the color of the mobs name with no level displayed would be best. If its weaker than you and an easy fight display white/gray, within a certain range above and below you, green, and if its stronger red. Maybe if its "impossibly" stronger than you, have it show up as black or purple.

    Only show the color relative to your individual strength, not your parties. I personally like seeing my party take on a red enemy that I couldn't take on solo, but if being in a party turns it green it kinda takes away the feeling of working together to beat a powerful enemy. I like the image of a raid with a black/purple enemy being taken on by players, showing that the enemy is impossible to defeat solo, rather than it being graded as green because you have multiple parties taking it on

    I like doing just the approximate difficulty because it adds in the risk vs reward aspect. This enemy is green but is it the high end of green or low end? This enemy is red, can my friend and I take it down just the two of us or will we need to go recruit more help to be safe? But that means splitting the loot more ways... risk versus reward. If too much info is given at the start it takes away the risk aspect of it but if no information is given to the player, people will Meta the information because it'll cause frustration and the risk gets taken away anyway.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Noaani wrote: »
    I prefer the hardcore, no indicators. I like the mystery and i feel like it makes it more immersive.

    Honest question for you.

    In a game like Ashes, where content shifts and changes all the time, if there are no indicators at all on mobs, how are players supposed to know where level appropriate content is?

    And don't say trial and error - we both know that won't fly.

    Honest question for you. Have you tried to solve this for yourself or have you considered some of your assumptions may not be correct?

    They asked what i preferred and i told them. I am not here to fit my preference into it. I assume if they are asking this question, they have ideas.
    @mcstackerson

    I have not tried, because to me the answer is to give players that information so they can just get on with playing the game.

    This is why I am asking you. You don't want that information made available to players, and I would like to underdtand more from that perspective.
  • ZericZeric Member
    I think there should be no indicators from just looking at an enemy and clicking on the enemy should only give a name. I think that some ability or command used be used before any real info can be seen.
    It could even be used as class specific feature adding to the wants of having a spread of classes in your party/guild.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I prefer the hardcore, no indicators. I like the mystery and i feel like it makes it more immersive.

    Honest question for you.

    In a game like Ashes, where content shifts and changes all the time, if there are no indicators at all on mobs, how are players supposed to know where level appropriate content is?

    And don't say trial and error - we both know that won't fly.

    Honest question for you. Have you tried to solve this for yourself or have you considered some of your assumptions may not be correct?

    They asked what i preferred and i told them. I am not here to fit my preference into it. I assume if they are asking this question, they have ideas.
    @mcstackerson

    I have not tried, because to me the answer is to give players that information so they can just get on with playing the game.

    This is why I am asking you. You don't want that information made available to players, and I would like to underdtand more from that perspective.

    When they say not to give that information to players, i interpret it as the information coming from the UI/HUD. Players still would get that information based on the mobs location and appearance.

    Even in a game where you see mob levels, you don't see mobs of wildly different levels in the same area. Mobs in an area will be around the same level and as you progress, you should have some idea of the mob levels in your area. You wouldn't be checking every spawn in an area to see if it's in your level range. For the most part, the game should be guiding you into level appropriate zones as you progress.

    When it comes to the node system, we have been told that there will be a mob progression. First smaller dragons will start showing up and as stages go up, larger dragons will come until you finally get the big boss. As a player, even once the boss has shown up, you should first be encountering the smaller dragons that are a comparable level to the mobs in the area and as you progress, the dragons will get larger and harder. It shouldn't be hard to figure out when you can't go further.

    Mob appearance should also show level to some degree. You see a big dragon or a mysterious ancient, it should look like a boss. As you encounter high level mobs, they should change in appearance to reflect their level. Getting bigger and having additional features. Bears start as your basic grizzlies but at high levels, you are seeing lava bears.

    If necessary, they can also add some kind of visual effects, like glowing eyes, to tell players when there is a large level disparity.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    you should have some idea of the mob levels in your area.
    How will we know this?

    I get how we know this in other games. A given zone is usually appropriate for level range spanning either 5 or 10 levels, and that never changes.

    In Ashes, however, the level range of mobs in a given area is determined by the level of nearby nodes. You could be in one area fighting level 20 mobs, and due to node alterations that area now has level 50 mobs. This isn't something that "could" happen, it is something that will happen. Every mob in the game at launch will be below level 10, which means every single mob in the game that is ever above level 10 is taking the place of an area that was previously dedicated to lower level content.

    I'm not even talking about dungeons here - I am talking about open world mobs. Dungeons are a whole other discussion.

    Even if a mob changes in appearance as it gains higher levels (meaning Intrepid need to make 10 or more versions of every mob - rather than a simple UI element to denote level), players still need to use trial and error to determine if that lava mob is for level 30 players or level 50 players. Would all mobs be lava based at some specific level? or would it be different for each mob type?

    And also, why the hell is a lava bear spawning in a forest? Or are forests not able to be level 50 places? Does the environment need to change based on the level of the local content as well?

    The next question then becomes, even if there is an obvious, non-convoluted means of communicating the level of mobs to a player other than via the UI (which has not yet been thought of), why not also give that information to players via the UI? I mean, if Intrepid intend for players to have that information, why not just give them that information? What is the benefit of obfuscating it?
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    At a certain point, levels above just merge. Unless you colour coordinate level gaps rather than display levels.

    I suppose you would just avoid anything from the merge point until you are max level. The thing is, I often come across high end mobs and attempt to kill them at whatever level.

    In some games we had elite versions of each map. Teamwork was great in these zones. I think we should be able to recognise an elite or a high level. I would prefer the option to raise an appropriate group to kill it rather than having to guess the actual strength.

    From an RP Persepective, I'd rather not even have nameplates above mobs. Much better immersion but much more of a single player approach. Can't call out targets unless group lead can add symbols above targets.

    Not sure of the support systems around the indicators which may or may not be removed. Hence, i dont understand if there are other methods available. I don't quite grasp the scope or effectiveness of the indicator removal. I think most people will level in a group so solid information for target acquisition is the better choice.

    I've never really seen the point of mob levels in raids though. Tags often mean more than level (I.e. Minion). I suppose because we have hidden health (old concept?) And no inspections that no indicators would be a bossom buddy.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »

    From an RP Persepective, I'd rather not even have nameplates above mobs.
    I'm all for making that an option for those that want it. 100%.

    As for mob levels in raids, I am used to playing games (or game, singular) that has raids at all levels, starting from around 15. I am hoping Ashes does similar and has some open world raid mobs at all levels. It's a great introduction to raiding for many players.

    In terms of a game where raids are their own zone and are only max level, I agree that levels are far less important.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited March 31
    Noaani wrote: »
    you should have some idea of the mob levels in your area.
    How will we know this?

    I get how we know this in other games. A given zone is usually appropriate for level range spanning either 5 or 10 levels, and that never changes.

    In Ashes, however, the level range of mobs in a given area is determined by the level of nearby nodes. You could be in one area fighting level 20 mobs, and due to node alterations that area now has level 50 mobs. This isn't something that "could" happen, it is something that will happen. Every mob in the game at launch will be below level 10, which means every single mob in the game that is ever above level 10 is taking the place of an area that was previously dedicated to lower level content.

    I'm not even talking about dungeons here - I am talking about open world mobs. Dungeons are a whole other discussion.

    Even if a mob changes in appearance as it gains higher levels (meaning Intrepid need to make 10 or more versions of every mob - rather than a simple UI element to denote level), players still need to use trial and error to determine if that lava mob is for level 30 players or level 50 players. Would all mobs be lava based at some specific level? or would it be different for each mob type?

    And also, why the hell is a lava bear spawning in a forest? Or are forests not able to be level 50 places? Does the environment need to change based on the level of the local content as well?

    The next question then becomes, even if there is an obvious, non-convoluted means of communicating the level of mobs to a player other than via the UI (which has not yet been thought of), why not also give that information to players via the UI? I mean, if Intrepid intend for players to have that information, why not just give them that information? What is the benefit of obfuscating it?

    My understanding of open world mobs is different.

    For the most part, the level of mobs in a zone will be predetermined and as the node levels, higher level content will be opened up, like dungeons and other higher level areas. All mobs in a zone don't change level when a node levels. This is how it was in A1. If it worked the way you mentioned, the nodes around the starting area would quickly become too high for new players.

    For most players, the game is going to guide them around the map with quests so they don't need to worry about finding a zone to level in. In the case you go off that path, you aren't going to need to use trial and error for every mob. Worst case scenario, you fight one mob, realize it's too high, and go to a different area. You don't need to test every mob to figure out which ones you can fight.

    Lava bear was an example. We have also seen forest bears. Once again, an example.

    As for your last question, I prefer to focus on the game's visuals instead of the UI. If the UI provides more information then the visuals, it becomes optimal way to take in that information, drawling attention away from the game.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    My understanding of open world mobs is different.

    For the most part, the level of mobs in a zone will be predetermined and as the node levels, higher level content will be opened up, like dungeons and other higher level areas. All mobs in a zone don't change level when a node levels. This is how it was in A1. If it worked the way you mentioned, the nodes around the starting area would quickly become too high for new players.
    While I can understand how you would come to this conclusion based on some comments, Steven has specifically said that node state changes the spawn table around any given point of interest. A specific quote is that as a node advances, it advances the level of mobs in certain locations - as in advances the spawn table of specific points of interest to spawn higher level mobs.

    So yeah, locations are going to have mobs of different levels based on node state.

    Rather than try and tell you what I think this piece of information should do to your current opinion, perhaps if you mull on it for a while and see if it changes anything for you and then get back to us here.

    The only thing I will say is that since mobs are influenced by the parent node (from what I can tell), each spawn point will have no less than 28 possible states (4 node types, 7 levels per node).
  • Enemy nameplates should show lvl, typ of mob (elite rare or similar), buffs, debuffs, health. Yes all of this should be customizable to fit players personal preference, but the information should be there.
  • FalkathFalkath Member
    edited March 31
    Give us the option to choose depending on our gameplay
    For PvP :
    Yes, a lot of player like it simple with the least information and it's ok for their gameplay, also great way to enjoy the game casually time to time for everyone with almost no UI to spoil the beauty of the game.
    But for a lot of competitive player will need minimum the "Old school style" for open world wild PvP and Arenas, as for competitive raids the "Intended Audience Style" is perfect to push the strategy and communication between a Raid leader and his members to be as precise as possible.
    He could mark himself for everyone to see him, mark an ennemy to show his raid a person of interest with 1, 2, 3, X, skull, ... or mark the map for his whole raid to see where he wants them to go. Combined with the option to see HP bar, distances, buffs / debuffs it could really give a chance to people to work on their strategy.

    If the goal is to avoid zergs to be almighty in Ashes of Creation, then giving this tool allows smaller PvP groups to compete with bigger one by having better strategy and organization.

    For PvE :
    I think "learning" about monsters and bosses HP bar and skills as we kill them or die to them might be fun way to discover the world of Verra
  • AidanKDAidanKD Member
    I like Nerror's suggestion that you could build up your knowledge of foes through repeated combat. Or some sort of research - It's an interesting system though it has to have worth in the world to kind of justify it.

    I think that being able to determine its approximate level, mob type i.e. if it's elite or "rare" - health is essential information. I also want good native indicators for tracking things like buffs/debuffs and this can apply to enemies, allies and your own character.

    For enemy attacks I am not sure if this is intended to be in this discussion, but I think if you can make an attack animation INTUITIVE enough that it doesn't warrant an indicator, then I would prefer there to not be one. I.e. dragon raises tail, it's about to slam back down. Dragon looks to the right, a second or two later he might use a side attack. If it's too discrete then I think a marker on the ground is fine.

  • CawwCaww Member
    I need Old School - Hand-Holding which requires Level, HP and Class in a simple to see, at a glance format. If you want to add fancy overheads give us the option to chose a basic look.
  • NeurathNeurath Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Caww wrote: »
    If you want to add fancy overheads give us the option to chose a basic look.

    How can anything fancy be basic? Lol
  • CawwCaww Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    Caww wrote: »
    If you want to add fancy overheads give us the option to chose a basic look.

    How can anything fancy be basic? Lol

    Since you may not be aware of it, many games will have fancy art work, scrolling or other pieces of dressing along with the actual indicator. I'm merely suggesting a basic look with minimal artistic flourish, I hope this clears up your misunderstanding of the post.
  • "Intended Audience Style: You see the level of the enemy, color indicators, and intended audience indicators for solo players, parties, or raids - stars, triangles, borders, skulls, etc." I prefer this one

    "Keeping 8 player party sizes in mind, would you prefer solo, party, raid, or more precise solo, small party, medium party, large party, small raid, and or full raid indicators?" I'm not sure what is meant with this. Maybe someone can explain it to me
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Steven and Jeff have said the default combat balance is for an 8-player party.
    The question asks whether there should be cues indicating the encounter is designed for solo, small party. large party, small raid or full raid.
  • OstooOstoo Member
    I personally prefer the Intended Audience Style. I always liked seeing a mob out in the open world and knowing if I can even contend against it. I think that would be the most information most would need. I do like the ability to remove elements on NPCs, Mobs, Players, and such. Like if I am in a raid or group zone, I don't really need to see the con elements, I know they're all raid or group content. So allowing me to remove them in zones improves the immersion of the fights.
  • HandOfUnityHandOfUnity Member, Intrepid Pack
    Intended Audience Style for me personally
    HoU_Option_1.png
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I don’t like enemy indicators. I want to have to learn through experimentation. It’s the same idea behind not wanting quest markers, better to learn the world just like it would be better to learn the enemies instead of looking at numbers.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    My understanding of open world mobs is different.

    For the most part, the level of mobs in a zone will be predetermined and as the node levels, higher level content will be opened up, like dungeons and other higher level areas. All mobs in a zone don't change level when a node levels. This is how it was in A1. If it worked the way you mentioned, the nodes around the starting area would quickly become too high for new players.
    While I can understand how you would come to this conclusion based on some comments, Steven has specifically said that node state changes the spawn table around any given point of interest. A specific quote is that as a node advances, it advances the level of mobs in certain locations - as in advances the spawn table of specific points of interest to spawn higher level mobs.

    So yeah, locations are going to have mobs of different levels based on node state.

    Rather than try and tell you what I think this piece of information should do to your current opinion, perhaps if you mull on it for a while and see if it changes anything for you and then get back to us here.

    The only thing I will say is that since mobs are influenced by the parent node (from what I can tell), each spawn point will have no less than 28 possible states (4 node types, 7 levels per node).

    You just said what i said but generalized what i was talking about as points of interest. Every spawn point on the map is not a point of interest. Points of interest wiki

    As i said, my opinion is my preference, which is what they are asking for in this thread. They are not asking for me to apply it to their game. That is their job. I have described ways it can work to help you but making it work isn't my role.

    When answering this question, I don't think you should worry about it's application. You should just state what you like. You can even state your concerns with your preference's application if you have any. It doesn't sound like you are against what i like and are just concerned with how the lack of information may impact play.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • VixerVixer Member
    edited March 31
    In my opinion the Old School Style is just fine, however it would be really cool if it's possible to implement some kind of a system warning, like a whisper to your character with a phrase that kind of hints if it's really far above you on levels (could work with a usable item maybe) or not, or if you can use a skill that lets you see auras of enemies that change color for level ranges, for example the on every 10 levels the aura changes that way you're not sure of the exact level they are but you know in which level range.
    I like the aura part more, however not sure if it would interesting to be implemented for all classes in general or for specific classes / races.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 31
    When answering this question, I don't think you should worry about it's application.

    You and I have both used the "the community as a whole said this" argument on these forums.

    If the community as a whole aren't considering how what they say will be applied specifically to Ashes, what does it matter what the community as a whole - or any individual within it - says?
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    When answering this question, I don't think you should worry about it's application.

    You and I have both used the "the community as a whole said this" argument on these forums.

    If the community as a whole aren't considering how what they say will be applied specifically to Ashes, what does it matter what the community as a whole - or any individual within it - says?

    In this case, the designers are the ones who have considered how to apply it to the game. After considering the different approaches and how they could apply them, they have asked us which option we like. I picked the option i prefer.
    smallerLizard.jpg
  • Definitely would prefer old school. Determining the size of a party without seeing it allows you to respond and outplay the enemy party through use of an in game system. For example a scout player sees a large raiding group on the map, the large raid group sees 1 dot. But no the 1 dude can bring more than the enemy and therefore have an advantage for no other reason than the indicator.
  • Enemy indicator should be visible on minimap in visually easily from far enough distance than you are not ambushed unless stealth is used.

    Regarding name tag, I always like Lineage 2's way to showing enemy with "SWORDS" icon.
    px9rev7x3afz.png
  • ElviorElvior Member
    Intended Audience Style in the sense that I should be able to assess the general threat level of a mob to me and my party the same way I can assess the threat level of a player.
    I don't want or need a big flashy black skull to tell me attacking this mob by myself would be a bad idea, but I also don't want to get one-shot while trying to figure out the strenght of the enemy.

    I think this would fit nicely in the risk vs. reward structure since dying (somewhat) randomly to a mob I don't know anything about (and in the Hard Core setting: I couldn't know anything about it) seems too punishing.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 1
    As I've said to Roshen, I would really love Intrepid to bring back data through immersion. All of the oldschool stuff I learned is lost, because there is heap tons of available data to the player they did not earn.

    I absolutely despise how the newer MMOs offer up all the information and you can just macro a rotation in.
    1. No numerical data for any vitals and levels unless an archetype ability.
    2. No armories to see other players set up.
    3. Difficulty through art and combat data only. Let the fights become intuitive.
    4. Let the animation data have clear and decisive angles and lines for measurements.
    5. Put a short range on any nameplate if nameplates at all for PCs, NPCs, and Mobs unless an ability for the ranger archetype.
    6. Ranger and Assassin archetype should have abilities that give them additional data on any PC or MOB.
    7. Let guild representation be through symbolic data only unless an ability for an archetype.
    8. I liked the idea suggested that scribing should record boss fights to record in game data - so let any collected data be in the guild UI through ability specializations available in the game. Example, Ranger assesses additional data via vitals, health pool, etc, Assassin has access to mob weaknesses through abilities, etc.
    9. Let there be a mapping tool for map data etc.
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