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Here is how you make people like your Combat
Liniker
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
*This is NOT a discussion on how to make good combat. Pls read the post
So Intrepid wants to do a big combat reveal and make people stop complaining about it, here is how you make the gaming masses and media like your combat with 3 steps:
- add good looking epic camera and particle effects
- add big camera shaking effect on hits specially on big damage spells
- add brutal sound effects and snappy animations to go along with camera shake/effects
*make all this optional with a sliders to turn off so people that don't like that don't complain about it
Gamers are a bit stupid, and often have no idea what they want or what they are talking about, so it won't really matter if the combat feels and plays nice if it doesn't look good, if you did that in Alpha 1 with that basic clunky combat people would say it's good based on looks.
Not convinced? have a look at this video https://youtu.be/38l-lxIa82g I've seen so many people that have no idea how that game or that combat works yet blindly say the combat is awesome because it looks cool..
Now, if you want to make Actual good combat, that's a whole different story, this is just an easy way to appeal to the public.
So Intrepid wants to do a big combat reveal and make people stop complaining about it, here is how you make the gaming masses and media like your combat with 3 steps:
- add good looking epic camera and particle effects
- add big camera shaking effect on hits specially on big damage spells
- add brutal sound effects and snappy animations to go along with camera shake/effects
*make all this optional with a sliders to turn off so people that don't like that don't complain about it
Gamers are a bit stupid, and often have no idea what they want or what they are talking about, so it won't really matter if the combat feels and plays nice if it doesn't look good, if you did that in Alpha 1 with that basic clunky combat people would say it's good based on looks.
Not convinced? have a look at this video https://youtu.be/38l-lxIa82g I've seen so many people that have no idea how that game or that combat works yet blindly say the combat is awesome because it looks cool..
Now, if you want to make Actual good combat, that's a whole different story, this is just an easy way to appeal to the public.
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Obviously you want/need proper mechanics and interesting designs within your combat system, but most people will judge it in the first few hours of playing, where usually there are no interesting mechanics, so if you don't give them the feeling of "ooh, this combat feels/looks cool" - they might dislike it and disregard any future system-based improvements to it. And that's assuming that people won't just judge it through Asmon's stream or some other video (which they most likely will). So as much of a memey post as this one is, you do in fact want to have at least some of those features.
And if this post wasn't meant as a meme - good feedback it is
Knowing when it is NOT correct to do it is the part a lot of designers struggle with.
But I definitely think the 'initial pitch' really helps get people to the point where they keep playing for long enough to find the depth if it is there. If they can nail all the prerequisites of those three steps, I'm pretty sure the combat will be great. Or at least two, since they already disqualified one of them.
God no. I fucking hate camera shake effects in any context.
And, yeah, that video clip in the OP highlights the hack & slash combat that is horrible for multiplayer RPGs.
The cosmetics represent the items and mobs we will be seeing and interacting with in-game.
What you are suggesting is that we next have a naked version of APOC.
The devs are working just as hard on combat.
They will reveal that progress when it’s ready.
It’s not like the artists are designing and programming the combat mechanics.
Of course, we can expect to see Ashes flashy once the artists design the FX.
And a bunch of players will ask them to tone it down.
I believe you mean 'the type of particle effects shown in that video'.
Intrepid absolutely should 'fool' a certain set of people into liking their systems, because the number of gamers who simply don't have the time to go through all of that data to be sure that they should play a game, even if they are otherwise good players with good intentions, is quite high.
@Liniker made a post that might have come off a little snarky, but it absolutely says 'Here is how to appeal to the masses', almost in a 'please remember to do this stuff' way. And even ends with 'I'm not talking about making actual good combat' (implying that it's separate), 'just how to get the masses to look at it'.
Seems like a lot of you guys can't read, I'm not talking about how to make a good combat system or how to make good combat in general, not saying shaking/camera effects/particles are good or bad.
I'm simply talking about How to make the general public Like what they see... how to make gamers in general, streamers/youtubers and social media not call your combat ugly, and that's by making it look cool, as intrepid seems to have learned, disclaimers saying it's an Alpha only works for your community, not for the masses, that's why we are still so early in alpha and they are already putting so much effort on character and environment art to make people excited with what they see, Steven said he wants to do the same when they show combat.
So using those things I suggested is a no-brainer, it doesn't affect the combat system at all, takes little effort to do, and with a simple slider your testers that don't like that stuff can turn it down/off.
Not disagreeing with the commercial logic there, but camera shakes, colorful lightning, and dizzying particles are not what I would personally enjoy.
Those aren't in there when you're playing, they are in videos to be flashy and impressive (and of course to show off the talent of the art team).
As part of my usual study I've asked someone to play that class (someone who actually has the instincts for a Greatsword Fighter type). It's good. Like, legitimately good. They're working very hard to make the game better. The process is just VERY VERY slow given the terrible foundation it is built on.
Visually, it's quite satisfying in combat on a high end machine/PS5. The flashiness doesn't detract much, since like most games, once you know 'what each flash means' and 'what it is an indicator of', it's easy to 'know why it is happening' and 'tune out some of the more egregious sparkles'.
Camera Shake has a toggle but does not (as of last check for me) have a slider.
Really? the cosmetics represent the items and mobs in the game? wow never thought about that. Then why not show the actual items and mobs, not a representation?
I love it when people try to excuse the weight of cosmetics we are getting 2 years before the game release.
Same here! but I usually also sacrifice graphics for as much performance as possible so it comes down to personal preference
I think this goes without saying but the people who work on art are a completely different team than the one that works on combat/design. The art team not making art doesn't mean the combat comes faster or will be more polished when it is released.
Even with your predictable attempt to ridicule the game to the point I don't want to play it, I'm gonna play it.
And I'm gonna keep opposing fomo cosmetics
Fully on board with the OP's thought though. If you need to spruce things up with some over the top effects, by all means, trick the ignorant masses.
Edit: As long as there's sliders so I can turn that nonsense off.
That said videos like this are exactly why I skipped BDO and Lost Ark nothing says fun to me like rounding up the entire zone and AOE'ing everything down in super exciting particle effects, camera shake and over the top Kung Fu movie style flashy moves with zero consequences. Stuff like the video will work on some and turn off others.
Is it better to sucker people in with misleading videos that are not a true representation of the combat system with flashy stuff or show what you are actually doing/have? Tough call lots of people are suckered in by flashing lights with little to no substance.
I'd figure that Ashes would just use the same method to 'sell' the concept that they want instead. Their previous stuff did look something like that, right? But BDO has the 'good sense' to never show any PvP in trailers like that. Wouldn't want to remind people that they might get stomped by someone else playing the same class but better than them.
Showing the right 'big bosses', 'Node Siege', etc, and using all the flashy particle effects that Ashes already has, but giving a more representative slice of their own gameplay, could probably do the job quite well. E.g. by contrast the Throne and Liberty trailer which is much much better.
What they are showing us are the differences between the 2D concept art and the 3D models.
And they aren’t showing us a bunch of stuff we haven’t seen in concept art because they don’t want us to become jaded even before Alpha 2.
When they start showing us combat, we should be expecting Alpha 2 to drop 3-4 months later.
I think they will do stuff like this and probably should in their own way. Showcasing the highlights of what Ashes is.
"But BDO has the 'good sense' to never show any PvP in trailers like that. Wouldn't want to remind people that they might get stomped by someone else playing the same class but better than them."
Sunny side of the truth can be good and bad. Look at what New World showed vs what is. My main hope here is they show the good with out over embellishing it to the point, 2 weeks after launch videos start coming out talking about all the misdirection they did to get customers.
Yeah we fully expect a business that is marketing a product to "dress" it up some. Wouldn't want to see it dressed up so much though that it's looked at as outright deception.
I expect Ashes to have about a million players at launch, and settle at around 250 - 300k by the end of the first year. I would consider this a successful and fairly health launch.
If the game mass markets and I stead attracts 5 million players at launch and then still drops down to that same 250 - 300k after a year, it would be a disaster.
The difference between these two is a game retaining 25% of its launch player could, vs a game retaining 5% of its launch player count. One is expected by both players and media - the other would signal that something is wrong.
Sure, they made more money for a month or two, and had to open up a whole lot of additional servers, but it would hasten the server mergers that need to happen.
That makes no sense at all, every single company wants as many people interested in their product as possible - and if intrepid didn't want to appeal to the general public, they wouldn't be trying to make their character art and environments, as well as combat look good this early on, Steven himself said the combat reveal will be a big reveal and he wants people to have a good impression. The character creator and weather systems are proof as they want to impress people with the looks as well as the content, and for that, the point I made is still valid.
Dygz and Noanni are HEAVILY biased toward PvE only so it makes sense ;/