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Balancing guilds with solo play

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  • MarcetMarcet Member
    If you have a group of friends, family or loyal people, like in real life, you have a numbers advantadge and yes, social skills matter in mmo's.
    I enjoy too being a loner and getting lost in the world, but we can't deny that guilds are a big part of the game. For me I want a chill guild of cool people to try and beat as many challenges we can, but I don't expect to be on the top 10 most efficient guilds.
  • ClintHardwoodClintHardwood Member
    edited June 18
    Karthos wrote: »
    "I don't want to be social in a game that at it's central core requires the players to interact with others and be social".

    I've never understood what people with this mentality even see when they look at an MMO, what makes them want to play a game that basically all but REQUIRES you to get involved with other people, group up, be social, rely on other players, ect. There's other games that will cater to this style of game play much better, we don't need to water down games to accommodate these confused people.

    Maybe you just don't want to play MMORPGs.... This is like going to a Mexican Restaurant and saying "I don't like Mexican food, please make me a hamburger".

    I hear Bethesda is releasing Elder Scrolls 6 soon-ish, and I'm sure you can probably play Skyrim on your Apple Watch here soon.

    I can think of three big reasons why solo players like MMOs. For one, the world feels more alive when there are real players nearby doing their own thing. Second, it's achievement. MMOs have meaningful progression that (ideally) cannot be cheated, cannot be erased, and can be appreciated by others. That means the progress one makes in an MMO is perceived as more rewarding. Finally, live service games are frequently updated. That means investing time in an MMO will provide far more content than a single-player RPG.

    That being said, I think solo players in AoC shouldn't have as easy of a time as people in guilds. Playing with a guild requires time and monetary commitments with the payoff of comradery. Why should groups be less efficient than single players?
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member
    @SirChancelot There are quite a few mercenary guilds already forming, from my guild who is focused on a hardcore PvP playstyle to Suspect who has plenty of opportunities for pretty much any player. You can find a home that you describe already.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 18
    Well, again...
    Karthos starts with the strawman fallacy that solo = non-social.
    There are many, many ways to be social in MMORPGs without being stuck for hours in a group or obligated to meet requirements for a guild.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    I don't know what "top lvl content" means.

    Even as a citizen of a Node, we aren't stuck only doing things in that Node.
    Our home Node will send us on quests and tasks around the world.
    So, even though SirChancelot thinks he might get bored sticking with one Node, that is probably not true.
    Especially due to how a Node can change due to a new Mayor, a new Monarch and/or a new dominant race.
    (Racial progression might send us across the map as well.)

    And, just because you are a citizen of one Node does not mean you cannot gain a good rep in a Node (or several Nodes) across the map - even without joining a guild.

    He is uses that point as much as possible because people as solo players want a edge over a guild which makes 0 sense. That game literarily makes smaller guilds have a edge over larger guilds.

    You can tell a solo player any reason of things to convince them in a guild they will say things that don't make sense, which i think it just comes down to being extremely anti social. To the point even if they join a guild that doesn't have requirements voice chat, etc they will still say no even if they get great benefits.

    This is what it should be in a nutshell if you are a solo player that refuses to be in any guild or build relations with a node you are just at a loss simply as that. There is no balancing something if someone purposefully shoots themselves in a foot, and expects handouts for it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LMAO
    That is one delusional post you wrote there.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMAO
    That is one delusional post you wrote there.

    You really are trying hard to defend solo players, and its not a strawman by the way solo player = anti social.

    Doesn't really matter what you say, since you can say anything of substence to defend a reason why someoen should refuse to be in a guild.

    The only delusional thing is your lack of understanding why you are tied to one node. Its actually an amazing idea to have solo players strong armed to interacting with other players and eventually finding a group that matches with them so they can be apart of their guild in time.

    Forced social interaction is the fastest way to avoid people never trying or considering and staying and only doing solo content.

    This is a mmorpg bud.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Forced social interaction is the fastest way to avoid people never trying or considering and staying and only doing solo content.

    This is a mmorpg bud.

    I’ve read this five times and can’t really grasp what you’re arguing. What are you trying to say?

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • derpderp Member
    Honestly my main concern is balancing. I would like guilds to offer horizontal progression, as soon as it becomes vertical progression it becomes a problem in my opinion
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Forced social interaction is the fastest way to avoid people never trying or considering and staying and only doing solo content.

    This is a mmorpg bud.

    I’ve read this five times and can’t really grasp what you’re arguing. What are you trying to say?

    Its a long convo so that is just part of it. Main point having a bunch of systems in place that make it as convenient and easy for solo without interacting with other people is not good. Its better to have systems to coax people to have more social interactions, join guilds, etc.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited June 19
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Forced social interaction is the fastest way to avoid people never trying or considering and staying and only doing solo content.

    This is a mmorpg bud.

    I’ve read this five times and can’t really grasp what you’re arguing. What are you trying to say?

    Some examples from eso:
    Join guild only way to sell in auction house.
    Group finder for dungeons.
    Top items (mythics) hidden behind solo minigame.
    Top items (arena weapons) hidden in solo arenas.
    Fastest way to farm gear is soloing normal mode dungeons.
    NPC companions that replace dps/tanks and healers.
    Ez solo overland farming for gear.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    derp wrote: »
    Honestly my main concern is balancing. I would like guilds to offer horizontal progression, as soon as it becomes vertical progression it becomes a problem in my opinion
    Guilds offer both horizontal progression and vertical progression. AFAIK.
    And small guilds get different perks than large guilds - in a manner such that small guilds are still viable.


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Its a long convo so that is just part of it. Main point having a bunch of systems in place that make it as convenient and easy for solo without interacting with other people is not good. Its better to have systems to coax people to have more social interactions, join guilds, etc.
    Again - solo ≠ non-social.
    You can be highly social in MMORPGs without joining guilds or groups. And Ashes facilitates that.
    Ashes has communities and micro-communites that player characters can be part of.
    "Doesn't have to be a community that you're super-strongly bonded with." (Steven)

    Also:
    Steven 😇: @Boy Who Lived The game is built for both the solo player as well as guild oriented players, both large and small guilds.
    Steven 😇: Solo players are afterall, still a member of the larger server community 😉
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    It is a good design idea and its still strong arming them to be part of a community, which has a much higher chance to leading them into wanting to join a guild. Believe I've mentioned this before though.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It's not strong-arming.
    There are just a wide variety of options.
    Casual players and solo players join communities because they want to; not because they are forced to.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    When you force people together in a spot, most people will mingle it much just take different amount of times for that to happen eventually on a normal scale. You are forced to only be apart of one node, you have to have a connection somewhere(of course you can move to a different node though but that derails in the convo of the reason to do so and the cost). We can dance around word semantics all day, but as far as I'm concerned its being strong armed into a situation that will most likely lead to more social interaction. That is a positive to me.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 19
    You can only be a citizen of one Node.
    You are not forced to become a citizen of a Node.
    In Ashes, you don't really have to have a connection to somewhere.

    It's likely that people will form bonds with what becomes their main hub, even if the don't become a citizen of a Node. Especially if they participate in defending the Node.
    But, that's not strong-arming.
    It's also likely that people will form bonds with citizens of Nodes because there is open world housing, so we can visit people at their homes. As in, we can walk to their homes and be fairly certain they will be there at the times they are normally there. Don't have to be a citizen to do that.
    Even when the person is not at their home, you get to see how they've decorated their home and what kinds of pets they have. Which also helps form bonds.
    We can expect more communication with other players in Ashes than is typical in previous MMORPGs because the world is dynamic, rather than static - so people will be asking what happened while they were away from the game.
    None of that requires joining a guild or joining a group.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    You can only be a citizen of one Node.
    You are not forced to become a citizen of a Node.
    In Ashes, you don't really have to have a connection to somewhere.

    It's likely that people will form bonds with what becomes their main hub, even if the don't become a citizen of a Node. Especially if they participate in defending the Node.
    But, that's not strong-arming.
    It's also likely that people will form bonds with citizens of Nodes because there is open world housing, so we can visit people at their homes. As in, we can walk to their homes and be fairly certain they will be there at the times they are normally there. Don't have to be a citizen to do that.
    Even when the person is not at their home, you get to see how they've decorated their home and what kinds of pets they have. Which also helps form bonds.
    We can expect more communication with other players in Ashes than is typical in previous MMORPGs because the world is dynamic, rather than static - so people will be asking what happened while they were away from the game.
    None of that requires joining a guild or joining a group.

    If by not joining a node you have less access and bonuses, no home then you are choosing to stab yourself in the foot for no reason. Strong incentive to be apart of the node is strong arming . Because the positives you are giving up are making everything more difficult for you based on what you are losing out on. By being part of a node when it is attacked your stuff is destroyed and you lose things.

    You are using a weird PvE solo mind set which I don't understand why you push for this so much in a MMORPG. Yes you can live homeless without a bathroom, a place to make food, store it, etc. Doesn't mean you will have a good time....
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If by not joining a node you have less access and bonuses, no home then you are choosing to stab yourself in the foot for no reason. Strong incentive to be apart of the node is strong arming . Because the positives you are giving up are making everything more difficult for you based on what you are losing out on. By being part of a node when it is attacked your stuff is destroyed and you lose things.
    You'll have to pay taxes on your housing and will most likely be required to help out with node tasks (depending on how other players can influence your living situation within a node), and some people might not like that while also not caring about having a freehold or a stall. I'd assume some players will go w/o a citizenship just because they're trying to save up some money for something or just want to be a roaming traveler.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 19
    I mean... stabbing youself in the foot for no reason is your prspective - but...
    Ashes is an RPG. Hardship from not being a citizen can be great for RP.

    But, Node citizenship is not "strong incentive". It's just incentive.
    So, there is no strong-arming. That's simply you exaggerating to try to support your playstyle perspective.

    The positives from not being a citizen of a Node does not make everything more difficult. The incentives for citizenship make some things easier.

    Having your stuff destroyed when you are a citizen of a Node is not a positive incentive.

    It's very clear that you don't understand the solo player mindset and make up all kinds of weird attributes of what solo play in an MMORPG entails.
    I'm not aware of needing a bathroom in MMORPGs, but...
    Being homeless makes for great RP in an MMORPG.
    Being a ronin makes for great RP in an MMORPG.
    We don't have to cook our own food in MMORPGs. Taverns are a great place to grab some food while socializing with other players - and you don't have to join a group or join a guild to socialize at a Tavern.
    For some people, freedom makes people happier than being formally or systemically tied to other people.
    Some people prefer to roam the world without being tied to a location or a group.
    Gandalf is a prime example of that. Gandalf typically is not concerned about losing a bunch of stuff he stored in some city.

    Again, solo does not mean that you rarely interact with others.
    Solo does not mean you rarely help others.
    Solo does not mean you rarely fight alongside others.
    Solo does not mean you refuse to be a citizen.
    Solo means you rarely mechanically join a group or raid.
    You can be in a casual guild and still primarily solo.

    MMORPGs have many different playstyles.
    "Good time" is subjective.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited June 19
    Dygz wrote: »
    Having your stuff destroyed when you are a citizen of a Node is not a positive incentive.
    Btw, that brings up a good discussion point. Where would a non-citizen store their stuff? At a node bank, right? But w/o a citizenship at that node, would that player be able to join the potential siege and then just take their stuff back? Have we heard info on this topic?

    edit: warehouses appear in lvl1 nodes, so that'll be a huuuge benefit to non-citizens. Just store your shit at a lvl1 node that will never get sieged and you're golden. And if you see the node grow, just move your stuff w/o any problems.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A non-citizen might only care about storing stuff that fits in their backpack or mule bags.
    A non-citizen might have friends in many Nodes across the map who help them store stuff at their Freeholds.
    No reason why you have to store stuff at a Node bank.
    You don't have to be a citizen to defend a Node during a Siege. You just have to register as a defender.
    Node citizens are auto-flagged as defenders for their Node.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    A non-citizen might only care about storing stuff that fits in their backpack or mule bags.
    A non-citizen might have friends in many Nodes across the map who help them store stuff at their Freeholds.
    No reason why you have to store stuff at a Node bank.
    You don't have to be a citizen to defend a Node during a Siege. You just have to register as a defender.
    Node citizens are auto-flagged as defenders for their Node.
    I mean, from the RP standpoint, yeah for sure. But from a practical standpoint, if I'm a non-citizen and I have a shitton of gear/resources that I've farmed on my travels I'd rather keep them in at least some bank. And preferably a bank that won't be destroyed by other players when I might not be playing the game. Hell, I might do this even when I am a citizen of some node, if I can do that. Especially if I can place a freehold as close to another lvl1-2 node as possible. Easy caravan runs between the two while 0 risk of losing your shit during a siege. This will definitely have to be tested cause I think it could be seen as somewhat of an exploit.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean... stabbing youself in the foot for no reason is your prspective - but...
    Ashes is an RPG. Hardship from not being a citizen can be great for RP.

    But, Node citizenship is not "strong incentive". It's just incentive.
    So, there is no strong-arming. That's simply you exaggerating to try to support your playstyle perspective.

    The positives from not being a citizen of a Node does not make everything more difficult. The incentives for citizenship make some things easier.

    Having your stuff destroyed when you are a citizen of a Node is not a positive incentive.

    It's very clear that you don't understand the solo player mindset and make up all kinds of weird attributes of what solo play in an MMORPG entails.
    I'm not aware of needing a bathroom in MMORPGs, but...
    Being homeless makes for great RP in an MMORPG.
    Being a ronin makes for great RP in an MMORPG.
    We don't have to cook our own food in MMORPGs. Taverns are a great place to grab some food while socializing with other players - and you don't have to join a group or join a guild to socialize at a Tavern.
    For some people, freedom makes people happier than being formally or systemically tied to other people.
    Some people prefer to roam the world without being tied to a location or a group.
    Gandalf is a prime example of that. Gandalf typically is not concerned about losing a bunch of stuff he stored in some city.

    Again, solo does not mean that you rarely interact with others.
    Solo does not mean you rarely help others.
    Solo does not mean you rarely fight alongside others.
    Solo does not mean you refuse to be a citizen.
    Solo means you rarely mechanically join a group or raid.
    You can be in a casual guild and still primarily solo.

    MMORPGs have many different playstyles.
    "Good time" is subjective.[/quote

    You are missing the point and being disingenuous to my post like a amber heards lawyer team.

    Ill make some some other stuff then.

    Very limit amount of storage.
    Increase crafting / market cost.
    Less access to quest that can give more item, gold or xp
    no bonus houses may apply.
    etc

    You are trying to beat around the bush with solo by saying they can still do "social thing". Something hat systems can have a more strong armed approach to make them have to interact with people more else there is a lot of things they don't have access to. Where normally if they could do everything solo and not interact with people solo players will take the approach of just doing it yourself.

    If you are being that stubborn preferring to be solo over joining a guild that supports your play style you normally will do things solo as that is the reason why you are solo. Having systems in place that boost solo will turn it more into a single experience game, all systems they have talked about and are creating are in contrast to it being a single player experience.

    Does a solo player interact with other people time to time...Yes. But the whole reason why they go solo at the very core is you not have to interact with people or groups.

    Else they would have again joined a small casual guild that fits their style, instead of being stubborn and saying i don't want to talk to people as much as possible.

    This post should be more so talking about how people can form groups not trying to create a solo player experience in a game focused on PvX and group content.

    Doesn't not mean there isn't solo content in the game btw, it just has a focus on groups and that is how a mmo should be and the reason classes are balanced as GROUPS not solo. Or is this another design you want changed?
  • derp wrote: »
    I become a mercenary.
    OMG this looks pretty cool, it really is a flaw that should be acknowledged.
    The solution you gave seems to be pretty solid.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sure that's what YOU would do - as a player who loves PvP and prefers not to solo.
    But, Ashes is an RPG.
    So... you can expect there to be people who focus more on the RP in MMORPG.

    Who says that players who choose to be non-citizens will be interested in keeping a shit-ton of stuff?
  • Azherae wrote: »
    I dislike any system where the game has any role in mandating how much someone is hired for and in what way they are 'contracted'.

    Several games have the "services", usually they appear as the community grow, often very formal and the price also follows the reputation in third party programs
    but what I understand by contract is that both parties agree with that transaction. I also think that putting an arbitrary value in the maximum or minimum limit can be very when you want to pay by other means.
  • KeeperBrGOKeeperBrGO Member
    edited June 19
    NiKr wrote: »
    MMOs are meant to be played in a company and not alone. There's way better games for solo or limited multiplayer gameplay, so why turn the only genre that supports huge groups of people working together towards one goal with adding mechanics and features that splinter that group into singular characters.

    from what I understand he suggested that individually you can have tools to value the time he puts in the character to play all the content that the game may have, this implies that the game can be experienced at any speed
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Who says that players who choose to be non-citizens will be interested in keeping a shit-ton of stuff?
    Oh, I hope there's a ton of random casual players with 0 gear/resources to lose who are just enjoying the game. I'll be glad to help them whenever they need any help. But I somehow think there won't be thousands upon thousands of such people in a pvx game. What definitely will be present is a ton of competitive players who'll use any and every exploit-like mechanic in the game for their benefit. I can use a node bank w/o losing anything within it EVER and don't really have any issues transferring that stuff when I need to (cause I can run a caravan on the off hours), AND I don't need to pay taxes to do that? Awesome. EZ game for me.

    But with all that being said, I am mostly a solo player. And I do like to RP in my own way (that is playing the class/profession/playstyle I chose). I will most likely create my own guild exactly because I want to play alone, but have a possibility to do group content when the opportunity presents itself. I've done so multiple times on several L2 servers and usually I'd get over 100 people in the guild exactly because the whole moto of my guild was "I ask nothing of you so you can't ask anything of me. But I will help you when I can". And people loved that shit. And all the solo people that joined the guild would group up quite often and just have fun. Hell, we even sieged a castle successfully. Hope I can achieve the same kind of thing in Ashes too (though I doubt we'll get a castle here).

    But even while being a solo pvp enjoyer, I can still see some potential exploits in the game or gameplay problems that other people might have issues with. There's obviously exceptions to any rule (with you being the hugest example of such to pretty much every problem I've ever brought up), but not all rules should be tailored to the exceptions rather than the norm. And I personally haven't experienced, or even heard, about RPers being the norm in mmorpgs. Usually they'd have a server or two, out of dozens, that is the "rp server". Or at least that's what I've heard from people who've played way more mmos than me.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    KeeperBrGO wrote: »
    from what I understand he suggested that individually you can have tools to value the time he puts in the character to play all the content that the game may have, this implies that the game can be experienced at any speed
    And the game already allows you to do so. You can sit in one location cutting down trees for a year and then sell those trees, buy some gear, level up and go enjoy some raiding with other people. What it doesn't give you is boosts for being alone, exactly because Intrepid wants to bring social gameplay back to mmos. You can still take your time getting to a point where a group is needed, but grouping up will still be required for high lvl content, and, if I understood derp correctly, he's fine with that.
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