With the question of combat direction being addressed and sticking with a hybrid system. Basic melee looks really good over all and I would love to see you guys stay on the path you're on. it's hard to really give feedback through a video and not hands on but here are a couple things I noticed.
- like others have stated even though it looks great, it feels floaty. Waving around a great-sword at the same speed (or eerily close to that) of the daggers removes any weighty-ness that great-sword or great-axe should have..
- The daggers animations didn't feel polished, yes I'm aware this is pre alpha 2 and many passes are yet to come, but the dagger animations felt like they skipped frames almost. it didn't feel fluid, it felt as if the animation itself skipped frames losing fluidity in the overall motion of the player character/animation. maybe the animations for the daggers were too fast?
- NPC attacks felt weightless, with some rock golems and getting hit by giant rocks I would have thought the player would have gotten knocked back and laid out on their back a couple times. I thought I saw a spot where a knockback would have occurred but it was like the animation wasn't there and the player character just moved back a couple feet in a motionless stance... maybe I'm just seeing things.
- is this going to be an AOE grind fest? I want to feel scared when facing an NPC, the impact of the NPC's felt negligible. When I say impact of the NPC's I don't mean their combat, I mean their existence. We don't have any background information on their level vs the players level in the video(to my knowledge). If the players level is pretty high comparatively I can see why the NPC's are being easily dealt with and not having any fear. However quite the opposite can be said if the NPC's and the player were the same level. There needs to be some sort of challenge here otherwise all of these creatures you are filling Verra with wont feel like they have any real impact on the world. I can see this becoming an issue with node events. NPC's with negligible impact, in my mind means less motivation to show up to those NPC attacks on nodes because a hand full of people can kill several NPC's very quickly and efficiently.
- The transition between tab target and action combat was so smooth I didn't even noticed it during the livestream.
- I'm not sure how I feel about the defensive/block stance... I am just un-sure where or how that would fit in into a tanks or any class rotation for that matter with the hybrid combat system. or how it effects the rotation per say.
Keep pushing forward, you guys are making great progress. I simply cannot wait for Alpha 2 to come so I can help provide more feedback with some hands on in-game hours under my belt.
I liked the overall look and feel of the combat in the sense that it shows some progress for this game's development. Everything looked pretty neat but as some people pointed out I have a couple suggestions I think would help with the overall final product:
- The impact of the attacks should be improved both for the player and the NPCs. In many instances it looked like the attacks weren't doing anything at all. Sure we can see damage counters but when we attack NPCs or other players I think adding weight to the impact of attacks would be great.
- Speed of weapons I think should be slower for larger and heavier weapons like the great sword where as smaller weapons like daggers should be notable faster. It was odd seeing how fast the greatsword was in comparison to daggers.
Everything else looked great and I love how things are coming together. Looking forward to Alpha 2 and being able to dip my toes in the water of this behemoth of a game soon!
Something that just came to mind.
I liked that there was no target indicator for the hammer skill, and I loved the impact decal on the ground afterwards. I like having to get the feel for my skill shots.
Is the basic attack combo a light, light, then heavy attack? If so i think the player should be able to either light attack or heavy attack with each swing. But besides that, the combat is looking amazing! Its looking like nice solid combat so far which is perfect!
I like the animation of the attacks however I think the yellow stream during and after the attack that trails your weapons cheapens the quality of work that the team has done by adding in an almost cartoonish effect.
As long as the weapons have the impact and weight you're desiring, there is no reason to have this yellow after trail for the weapons as it almost detracts from the quality of work that the animation team has done by blinding the view of the weapons themselves.
1. Agency is the most important thing for me. I'd rather be able to cancel a skill animation mid trough putting the skill on cooldown anyway, than having to watch my toon being beaten without being able to do anything about it.
2. Monster attacks feels unimportant. This should feel a little more impactful on the player and screen.
3. Please END the LURE n KILL many at a time mechanic, make aggroing multiple enemies at once feel like a really tough decision, one wich would only be acomplished with a party or if WAY stronger than the enemies. Hack n Slash combat feels dull after some time. Running trough monster infested fields while running from pvp should be a huge risk.
This looked a lot better than previous combat I have seen and is a huge step in the right direction. However, ide say that the "freeze frame" affect on the attack when it connects doesn't produce its intended purpose with the current graphic style and degrades the animations clarity and quality. I would love to see how it would look without the "freeze frame/skipping" affect attached to it for comparison.
Just a few niche things that I would like to see done
- For active blocking, especially when it comes to tanks, have a skill tree that helps to improve active blocking, but also makes it possible to be a more ability-based tank. I think this separation of play styles could make for a lot of fun combat and different dynamics to consider.
- For the animations of basic attacks, if they could follow some more real-life principles of weight balance and have them be swung (for this instance let's take the 2h sword), in a way that makes sense for that type of weapon. Just to help with immersion. I'd love to see intrepid bring in real-life weapon experts to get feedback on animations.
- Tone down some of the flash animations for basic attacks, we don't want our screens being filled with light in large-scale battles just from basic attacks. At the same time don't allow for particle effects in combat to be changed, as I want to see a dynamic being built around each weapon's various particles. Could be cool to see a group of mages cast fireballs, and use this as a smoke screen for DPS to start flanking. May not be the best example but still cool to think about.
Overall we will have to wait for A2 to give feedback on combat as a whole, but I like the direction we are moving in.
The biggest feedback I can offer (which I'm sure is just out of scope for Alpha 1) is that the SFXs that trigger when the weapon collider hits a certain material should change to the respective material type. It would definitely help the "impactfulness" of the swing.
I.E. swinging a weapon with a class of "large metal weapon" into a stone golem plays LrgMetalStoneHit.SFX. Swinging a small wooden club into a water elemental plays SmlWoodWaterHit.SFX.
It could even be implemented with spells too I.E. Frost spells hitting a fire elemental trigger a steam SFX.
Overall the combat seems to be going in the right direction, it just needs to be further improved and polished.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far? I think the weight of the attacks with the Greatsword needs some work. I noticed there is little to no impact on the Golems until you defeat them, then they go flying off into pieces. They barely move or react when they are hit if at all. If the Greatsword really is at the high end of the scale for weightiness, you should be able to see that when you fight. It would be interesting to see the impact of attacks on less sturdy enemies to see how it compares. Also, for being one of the heaviest weapons it attacks pretty fast. I think it should be slowed down a bit. Based on those auto attacks, I can only imagine how fast a one handed sword will be. For it to feel impactful, you need to make sure the medium-heavy range weapons power can be felt in every attack, otherwise they are no different than the daggers flailing around rapidly.
The footwork needs improvement too. There are times when the character just floats across the ground during or after attacks. There are times when the character looks awkward because he is not stepping through attacks or stepping in the direction the attacks are going while moving. With the heavier weapon groups, It would make sense for your character to take wider steps/have a wider stance while swinging because of the weight of the weapon, especially during movement.
On top of that, I dislike the yellow tint in the auto attacks. I think it's too flashy and distracting for just a basic attack and should be reserved for class abilities and or weapon enchants. The silver tint that the dagger has would be better.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? The combat in The Witcher 3 felt really good because you could feel the impact on your attacks, the animations were excellent and combat flow was fluid.
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VarkunMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Looking good combat seems to be heading in the right direction, much better than the alpha 1 test phase. There is so much more to be revealed though but seems to be a good first step.
Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
Just little coment about one little feature wich would be a great help for the control of the character when it comes to players who will not be playing with action camera and prefer to go with the right click free camera control, the possibility to set an aboutface button with the possibility to keep your camera from moving by holding left click while using it would be a great help in the term of contols possibilties, especialy in pvp situations, giving you a way to keep a clear vision of what's happening around you while fighting.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
For me it is important that basic weapon attacks feel grounded in the world and fluid. Combat should still feel pretty visceral even when your character isn't launching massive skills.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Even though the combat looked and sounded really great, I feel like impact was missing from the fight, especially with the great sword. It would be cool if mobs visually reacted to heavy blows, but I suspect stagger animations could throw off the flow of combat. Adding some extra visual feedback like blood on humanoids or chipping rock on the elementals would go a long way for me.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
For me single player RPGs do this best, and a lot of MMOs tend to phone it in. I think games like Zelda or the Dark Souls series really nail basic attacks. These games don't have a ton of skills like most MMOs, and their combat has the type of grounded (not too flashy) style that is important to me.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am really excited for the progress the team displayed. Playing Alpha one, both the full body and split body styles felt a bit dated. Watching Steven showcase the improvements was really amazing. My only concern, as someone who loves heavy weapons was that if the great sword sets the high bar for heavy weapon impact it still felt a little fast and floaty for my taste. Perhaps slowing down speed while increasing damage per hit, increasing character root while offering broader range in the attack, or adding some visual feedback (see above). Overall, a minor critique for an amazing update.
My first post and after watching the dev update I was happy to see most my concerns which were pretty much addressed such as movements in combat whether that was while moving or stationary. Dmg number diversity was a nice touch to quality of life.
I was excited when the combination of weight and sound was mentioned based on weapon type. It's hard to really gage how they feel verses what they look like without hands on but in time. It did appear during the showcase that the melee attacks were either quicker or sped up for the presentation. The characters race, level, and class type along with gear or general stats I imagine impacts the experience each individual character has with each weapon type and the proficiency they have with them such as speed or movements while wielding.
I was curious there were any plans or development for visual and statitistical ability to block also depending on weapon type, character stats etc. I mentioned this as it also appeared as if the dagger was able to easily block/parry the rock golem creatures. The showcase was limited to a large sword and daggers so my intention is not to be critical but merely curious.
Thus far my small group are excited to see more. Keep up the hard work.
o7
My feedback is going to just be based on the feel of everything from my perspective.
- I really enjoyed the sword combat seen, the sounds and visuals were very satisfying and just gave me a rush of dopamine looking at it lol. I think the animations were a little glitchy on the stream and that did take away from the experience, but obviously this is a beta so the core features were great.
- The ability that was shown was one of the coolest things shown off. The way you charge up the hammer and then just lay it down felt super powerful just by watching.
- I really liked the dagger combat shown and it looked awesome coming from the perspective of someone looking to play a dual dagger wielding rogue. The animations were quick, the effects looked great, and the sound really pulled it together for a solid base.
- I also like the movement shown with the dashing and whatnot. I plan to make a rogue that can teleport around and be hard to pin down so this looked really appealing to me. I would like to possibly see more variation in the basic attacks as to not be as repetitive (possibly a rare animation if there was to be a crit)
- I liked the way the abilities and basic attacks chained together and just gave a lot of weight and like Steven said a “kinetic” feel.
- I think you guys have the right idea when it comes to the fundamental plan that was talked about. Your movements correspond to your keyboard input so that moving and feeling is synonymous and immersive.
Fundamentally the idea you guys have of kinetic and inertia based movement is great thus far and I have little to criticize due to the limited amount of combat shown. I would love to see more of the complicated combat systems in the future to maybe see possible issues in specific classes or weapons.
Edit:
What’s great about watching this combat is it has me imagining the different situations I’ll be in while playing and I think that shows how effective and cool the new combat is. It’s enabling immersion which is important.
I think combat is going in the right direction, though I do see a few issues here.
Issues I witnessed:
●Neither the player or mob react to/get staggered by heavy attacks, I think adding a temporary stagger effect for both sides makes the combat feel more impactful.
●The basic attacks for the Greatsword are too fast, it almost seems it's as fast as the dagger which makes the sword appear weightless. I think decreasing the speed by at least 15-20% would go a long way.
●When blocking, the player should still feel the impact of the attacks which seemed to be non-existent here.
●I'm hoping the Dash skill we saw isn't replacing the Dodge roll from earlier
WHAT I LOVED:
●The general direction combat is going for basic attacks
●The environmental effects caused by the basic attacks from the greatsword.
This update was what moved me from cautiously optimistic about a project that seemed just a little too ambitious to genuinely excited for what's on the horizon and a team that obviously has loads of experience and passion for what they're creating (not to say that the passion wasn't obvious before 😉). This combat demonstration shows just how far Ashes has come from its concepts to being a fully realized game. To answer the question of the stream I am extremely happy with the direction I see the game going in. I feel like if the team continues to follow their intuition with their years of development experience, and are careful about the feedback they take to heart, this game could easily be a GOAT.
Excited to see how you guys move everything forward. I'll be posting more on the forums for sure. 😁
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
Hello! First time posting (actually made an account here to comment briefly on melee weapon basic attacks) and have been following the game for many years. The game looks amazing and has come a long way. That being said, here are my thoughts on melee basic attack combat:
My Pros:
The combat looks super smooth visually and most likely feels good mechanically.
The sounds of the weapon striking are fantastic. I didn't notice them much until later which is a good thing. It feels natural.
The different combinations are smooth move well visually.
The sparks on the ground when the weapon drags against it look awesome!
The marks left on the ground look pretty sweet after groundstrikes.
The weapons themselves look amazing.
I like the distorted visual area of where the attack is taking place.
My Con:
I like how the special attacks have the visual yellow "arc" at the edge of the blade but I feel like including this on every regular attack goes against the overall artistic design of the game. To me, the overall artstyle of the game is closer to The Witcher games than a more cartoony WoW for example. I think basic melee attacks would feel awesome if the colored ark was removed so the only real color we saw was the ground sparks, where the attack hits on npcs, and maybe a very light grayish arc so we have a feel of where the weapon is visually attacking.
Game looks great and I can't wait to play when it comes out. I have mained a fury warrior in wow over many expansions and can't wait to try it out in AoC.
The animation was so terrible that I had to make an account.
The earlier animation videos were concerning but if this is the extent of progress made, I’m not even sure I’m going to play this—and I desperately want to! I want this game to be good. I want to get my old guild back together and become a degenerate and ignore all of my responsibilities. I love everything I’ve heard Steven say about it until he praised this work.
I’m not going to start with the attacks. I’m going to start with the idle, the pose players will see the majority of the time. This is the most important pose, the one from which all others stem. The pose players will use in cities to peacock. It has to be perfect.
Idle
This pose is stiff and lacks personality. The character forms straight lines. The silhouette is boring. The sword is held awkwardly and pointed up, making it look like a weightless prop. Gravity isn’t acting upon it, there’s no strain in his shoulders or bracing in the legs. Greatswords weren’t actually very heavy but they’re long and have a center of balance.
Your animator didn’t even get up out of their chair, pick up a broom and look at themselves in a mirror. If they can’t craft an idle pose with physics and readability then they’re really going to be out of their element when it comes to animation.
Here are some YouTube dudes idling with giant swords:
These are more dynamic and interesting poses. “But the character has to be able to move around at a moment’s notice, they can’t just put the sword on the ground like that.” It could be a long idle but if that’s too complicated of a transition (why?), have it rest on his shoulder. “But it will clip through shoulder armor.” Clipping is far less of a problem than a boring idle stance and the fabric clips all over the place anyway.
This is a little better in that he has a wide stance but it still looks stiff. There’s no bending anywhere, no turn of the hips. What little bend of the knees there is gets covered by the clothing. I have to wonder if you’re trying to do too many cool things, like wind interaction, and not focusing on just making things look good. I, too, spend hours developing tools and go down GDC talk inspired rabbit holes…but at the end of the day, the systems have to work together. You can’t build a house without a solid foundation.
The back pose is the most important, it’s what players see all the time so it has to read well. The daggers seem like an afterthought, like he forgot he was holding them. Like he’s waiting for the bus.
Also, I don’t know if it’s just this model or outfit (I’d have to go look at old media), but in doing this draw-over I noticed the knees are too low which might be contributing to my problem with the running animation looking stocky and dwarf-like. The body proportions feel off. Is that the IK at play shoving the lower leg up into the thigh? Here’s a quick edit of the dagger idle with an angled foot, angled chest and arm out to form a stronger stance:
Jumping
This isn’t just “floaty,” he’s floating. Jumping is the second most important animation. This one certainly isn’t worth spamming your spacebar. I’m assuming (hoping) this is unfinished since the upper body is completely disconnected from the lower half; I’ll ignore that part but it’s not the only problem.
I kind of like the wild foot action but it’s cartoon rag doll and doesn’t fit this art style. The leg comes back at a strange angle. It’s a strong push off motion that implies lots of speed, as if he just took a running leap across a chasm in a platformer, but there was no anticipation frame, no squat, no force acting upon him. He was just suddenly in the air like Superman and falling off a hill.
Anticipation is something I haven’t seen in any of these animations whatsoever. If your animators are struggling with how to balance responsiveness and anticipation, the solution is to have frames players can feel but don’t see. It’s the wind up of a pitch. Without it, everything is floaty. There has to be at least one frame of anticipation before the hit, heavier attacks can have a little more. The movement should be communicated after the hit via follow through and recovery frames.
There’s some bounce at the end but it feels weak—and not just because the upper body is a plastic toy soldier. It would be easier to critique this if there were no cape. I like games that have different jumps depending on fall height but that kind of suggestion feels so pointless in the shadow that is your current problem.
Combat Intiation
Is he about to twerk or fight? Why is he bending over? Is this a mating dance taunt? This isn’t an offensive or a defensive stance, it seems like a placeholder. So moving on.
Blocking
He’s not defending his body at all, he’s not hunched or bracing for a hit, he’s blocking with his hands and not his sword; his fingers would get chopped off. I’m not saying things have to look realistic, I’m saying make things look real. There’s a disconnect again between upper and lower body as shown by the twist. There’s no feedback when hit by the enemy but that’s been covered and I’ll assume it’s unfinished work.
When you do animate the impact, put his whole body into it. Allow the player to animation cancel but play that response animation during the time it’ll take them to press the next button.
Combat
I’m going to break down this gif:
Ignoring this terrible transition, there’s no anticipation in the first attack. He’s already got his leg up all willy nilly, it’s a confused lunge pose and the sword looks like it’s about to fly out of his hands. He’s in the air out of nowhere. Imagine if he crouched or leaned back for just one frame before the attack starts? It would blend the animations and provide anticipation. There are three frames of the sword descending before the hit frame, you can get rid of them and replace them with anticipation. It will feel stronger and snappier. You can move his feet without moving the player’s position—in fact, you have to.
Again with the upper/lower body out of center. He’s slashing off to the side like a drunkard about to tip over. I don’t read any force in his stance. Not sure I’m into a giant lens flare indicating a hit either. Many posters have already said the enemy lacks a stagger, I’d call it a flinch since he shouldn’t stagger from a normal attack, but they’re right. At the very least throw in some rock particles, your VFX artists seem to really want to make stuff…
…because what is this? This is where we go from bad animation to terrible animation.
Why is this so delayed when now is the time for follow through? Why does it not follow the arc of the sword which was farther to the left? Why is it glowing enough to light up the environment?!
I’m going to assume your animation wasn’t reading so you added huge trails to try to solve it instead of reading The Animator’s Survival Kit. This is not a smear, this is a monstrosity. People are saying the attacks are too fast but what they’re really saying is that they can’t follow the action. Animation is the communication of motion and you aren’t communicating anything with this arc. It stays on the screen for a long time and actually slows the movement. It’s an aftereffect that just becomes a distracting strobe light.
If there were a smear on the frame right before the hit frame, a smear on the hit frame, and then the smear disappearing on the frame after it, now you have an object that’s moving so fast you needed to use a smear (but maybe you didn’t need a smear in the first place; maybe you broke the sword or the arm, maybe you relied on timing, maybe…).
(Slowed down.)
This trail is even worse. It’s completely detached in both distance AND angle AND timing. It’s like the people who worked on this were completely blind to what the other was doing. Even if we were to imagine the sword did follow that path, it slows its movement instead of enhances it.
Then he does some ice skating. I’m all for player control but the movement needs to be animated. He should sidestep or lean. This will sometimes look wonky—you can’t fix everything—but I always appreciate the effort to avoid ice skating.
After that he holds a follow through frame for a really long time for some reason. This is what people are calling hitstop but it’s not. Hitstop holds on the HIT frame for impact/readability and is Good, this is Bad and holds on a follow through frame. This makes the attack look like it’s in a flip book at best or that the game froze at worst. I hate all of this so much more now that I’m writing about it.
Animation is hard. Animators spend their entire lives trying to master it. In this video, you have two engineers and a game designer talking vague nonsense about what “feels” good and how to “hone in” on it by studying other games instead of studying animation. Combat IS animation. One of them says, “We started by chopping up animations to build an ability we thought felt good and then [...] passed it off to animation.”
I’m not going to simply blame this result on having no animation lead because it looks like you have no animators. Unless your systems are collapsing underneath the weight of each other, the animators could have salvaged whatever was brought to them. I see you, animator. I see your reel full of quality work that got you hired. Maybe you’re way better than this but now you’re resentful about being led by someone who doesn’t know what you know, who took your beautifully crafted animations and forced you to turn them into this. Maybe now all you want to do is ship the game and move on. Maybe you’re doing the bare minimum to get that paycheck and no one knows any better and I'm blowing up your spot.
Or maybe you’re way in over your head, I don’t know.
So then he’s a spinny boy. He actually pauses at this point in his swing, when he’s already in full motion, and holds it for two frames, completely ruining the momentum. People can feel extra frames the same way they can feel split second anticipation frames.
Then bam, he’s done with his spinny action, but this arc doesn’t start at his sword point or the beginning of his motion. It starts way out in no man’s land. And then it doesn’t end at his sword, where the movement stopped, it keeps going and glowing and taking up all screen real estate and blinding the entire battlefield. I hope it grows large enough to destroy his entire reality.
I’m being really hard on this trail but it’s not bad in a vacuum. It’s the fact it’s not accompanying the sword and trying to steal the show by being movement where there is no movement. And that it glows. Your VFX artists are good but their leadership is not. Someone needs to have an eye for the whole of the work, know when to dial it down and have the finished animation ready for them before they begin.
I think the entire attack was a missed opportunity to tween the spin.
This mighty warrior has spun himself into the dirt. This is a sad recovery frame. I wouldn’t feel powerful playing this guy, he looks like he can’t even pick up his sword. He always looks off balance, like he can be tipped over in the slightest breeze.
What does mighty warrior do to lift his weapon? He bends his legs like a robot, keeps them that way instead of continuing the squish, and doesn’t need to wind up his attack. He’s just that good.
?????
I have to stop. This is depressing. I didn’t even get to the daggers, the weapon I'd likely be using as a player.
This isn’t just early footage, these aren’t technical limitations—these lack the principles of animation. Watch real fighters fight. Watch real people walk. Get up and act it out. Don’t watch other animators’ work, you aren’t ready.
Combat and its animation is what's going to make or break your game. None of the other beloved systems you've slaved over are going to matter if the combat isn’t right. It’s a deal breaker for almost every player whether they know it or not. You’ve hidden the bad animation behind bright VFX and fooled people for now. Many won’t know how to put into actionable words what’s wrong, as evidenced by this thread, but they’ll certainly feel it when they play. And then they’ll stop playing.
Overall i liked the basic combat
I loved the mobility while slashing enemies and the responsiveness from the npcs to our attacks.
I liked that i could tell which mobs got hit and which werent - the effect wasnt annoying like the blinking effect in BDO
The only thing that i found a little annoying was the sound effect on the slashes - im a player that plays like 6+ hours a session and hearing these sounds + probably the same soundeffects from my party members would be annoying^^
I dont like the blocking - would prefer blocks & counters with abilities, but i will try it first before judging. (im mostly playing mobile tanks like the warrior in Tera, dodging attacks is more my style)
please make a spot test for this when there is a feeling of impact from the weapon - doesnt have to be a big spot test - small area with different enemies that are ready to show would be enough.
this gameplay and a good feeling of impact from hits is hard to do.
From an animation stand point the more frames it takes from windup to impact then follow through & recovery adds to the weighted feel. The inertia during & after an attack with a heavy weapon should matter. It would look silly to have someone wielding a giant sword & have no penalty to their movement. Damage is another deciding factor of the feeling of weight. Too little damage for a heavy weapon doesn't feel rewarding & too much damage could break certain aspects of the game. Finally stagger, hit stun, & additional on hit weapon effects have to be relative to the weapons speed. I'm not a huge fan of hit stun or stagger in an MMO. It sounds like a balancing nightmare to be honest. Me not being a fan however doesn't mean I'm against it. I'm not sure how you would balance it.
Additional weapon effects could be fun. A Heavy weapon with an arbitrary number percentage, let's say 8%, chance to cause a status effect, DoT effect, or extra damage on hit while a light weapon might only have a lesser percentage chance, let's say 1%, to do the same thing. The percentage will be based on attacks per minute for each category of weapon, heavy, medium, light, ranged, magic, hybrid, etc.
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SockskiMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
Love the hybrid approach. The pace and fluidity it offers is like the best of both worlds. There are a lot of great lessons to learn from Guild Wars 2 combat. Especially when it comes to basic melee attacks, the progressive combo system in GW2 is really fun. You feel rewarded for sticking to your target. If you manage to hit 1 time, then your next hit does a new thing, and if you hit a 2nd consecutive time, then the 3rd basic attack finishes the combo and rewards you with a more powerful effect. General feedback
-- Speed
The speed of the swings so far looks a tad too fast.
Style
The basic animations, like the weapon trails, seemed a bit to cartoony/eye-catching. Like on the sword, the yellow trails were pretty big and bright. That may clash with people's fashion, but also, it kind of reminded me of a 2D fighting game sword slash.
Class Identity
If weapons aren't really related to class kits (contrasted in the Guild Wars 2 combat system), then the affects should probably be more neutral. In GW2, they add colors and flourishes that reinforce the class's identity. An elementalist using a sword is difference than a guardian using a sword is different than a ranger using a sword. Since they use the same weapons differently, with different skills, having class-related affects on the attacks help to identify the class and skills they're using. Since AoC won't be tying the weapon skills to classes in that fashion, I think it's better to have the visual affects be more neutral, and allow for class flavor to show through. (I suppose my whole point is moot if the yellow sword trail was due to it being a weapon-master swinging the sword, as opposed to "this is what a sword swing looks like".)
Multi-player skills
One side note, I think you already have this in mind, but please continue to consider "group" skills. Like in GW2, if 3 rangers use a certain warhorn skill at the same time, a spirit wolf is summoned for a short time. That effect is more of a fun easter egg than a useful attack. I believe you've talked about having a group of summoners be able to work together to summon an extra large siege monster, so that would be awesome.
Overall, I'm really liking the direction that you guys are taking it.
Loved to see the basic melee attack on the live stream, it's good that we'll be able to move around while performing the attack while the weapon swing still happen.
A good mmo that had similar basic melee attack was Archeage with the melee's triple slash (it's not really a basic attack but it's one skill without cooldown) it works the same and can have some variences like quicker but less damage or quicker but single target.
The fact the last swing deals more damage is a really good idea, it rewards the player that manage to do a full triple slash rotation, maybe giving it a little effect like pulling foes or applying a small debuff could be good aswell.
Hopefully the skills coming with the basic weapon attacks will have enough impact not to make the basic skills too important so it's not a full left click + dodge while waiting for skills cooldowns combat system
I really enjoyed the livestream and the combat demonstration, I thought the speed of both weapons and the freedom to move in any direction while swinging was a great touch and a great improvement over the previous Alpha One. I also absolutely loved the integration of the rock golems hiding in plain sight in the area, I think that really adds to Immersion and Danger, and could make for some fun and memorable adventures and shenanigans out in the open world. More of that would be amazing!
It looks like this has been brought up and I'm sure it is simply unfinished, but the only real complaints I had were more nitpicks than anything, the blocking didn't have any impact or weight and some of the basic attack effects for the Greatsword were a little too bright and distracting. Also I'm concerned that AoE might become highly dominant since it looks like all melee is cleaving through loads of enemies, is there an idea or system in play(or theory) that the team is thinking about to prevent this? or is the team embracing AoE and building encounters around it?
But really that was all I didn't enjoy, the animations and effects weren't really what you were showing off though(from what I understand at least), despite that however I really enjoyed the approach of them. I also thought the actual attack speed of the Greatsword was perfect, it looked weighty and satisfying. Coming from someone who was very interested in this game for a long time, and someone who was maybe a little nervous about where combat was going to go in the future, whenever Alpha One was up, you have not only calmed my worries, but gotten me genuinely excited to spend innumerable time exploring the world and trying out every weapon I find, as well as fight whatever crazy enemies exist in Verra, I cannot wait to see what else this team can do and blow me away with! Ultimately my take away is that this is the approach Ashes should take with their combat system, and I am super excited!
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I'd prefer daggers to not have a slash type animation. To me, they're short, pointy stabby things. They're designed for thrusting, not slashing.
Hacking and slashing should be delegated to axes, maces and swords
Second on the point of daggers is reverse grip. Honestly, I'm not a fan. Works in Hollywood, but knives typically aren't about power strikes. They're finesse movements, striking areas of weakness with precision. A forward grip is far more realistic.
I'd also like to see positional advantage when using attacks like being behind a target critically strikes more.
Animation wise there are some games where striking a target will slightly stop the frame as the weapon collides and resume to normal when the weapon follows through. It *feels* like collision is happening.
I think camera shake does add immersion, but it needs to be subtle. You don't want your monitor wobbling off into the solar system.
A very important suggestion I would like to add to this thread is; please, focus on Player Agency when going for things like VFX and Camera effects, please understand that as you can see from this thread, we have a lot of mixed feedback and for every person saying they don't like camera shake or shinny particle effects - there is someone that does like that
so instead of just picking a middle-ground and locking us with that setting, give us Sliders so we can bump a Huge ass camera shake loads of effects and weapon trails, and a slider to significantly turn that down for people that don't like that kind of thing
however, also pay attention on things that give PvP/PvE advantage such as grass/vegetation like steven mentioned, if there is a spell that is supposed to cause let's say, a black hole or a wall that prevents you from seeing on ultra settings, people on Low settings should not be able to bypass that - this would just force everyone to play on low settings due to the significant advantage
Comments
- like others have stated even though it looks great, it feels floaty. Waving around a great-sword at the same speed (or eerily close to that) of the daggers removes any weighty-ness that great-sword or great-axe should have..
- The daggers animations didn't feel polished, yes I'm aware this is pre alpha 2 and many passes are yet to come, but the dagger animations felt like they skipped frames almost. it didn't feel fluid, it felt as if the animation itself skipped frames losing fluidity in the overall motion of the player character/animation. maybe the animations for the daggers were too fast?
- NPC attacks felt weightless, with some rock golems and getting hit by giant rocks I would have thought the player would have gotten knocked back and laid out on their back a couple times. I thought I saw a spot where a knockback would have occurred but it was like the animation wasn't there and the player character just moved back a couple feet in a motionless stance... maybe I'm just seeing things.
- is this going to be an AOE grind fest? I want to feel scared when facing an NPC, the impact of the NPC's felt negligible. When I say impact of the NPC's I don't mean their combat, I mean their existence. We don't have any background information on their level vs the players level in the video(to my knowledge). If the players level is pretty high comparatively I can see why the NPC's are being easily dealt with and not having any fear. However quite the opposite can be said if the NPC's and the player were the same level. There needs to be some sort of challenge here otherwise all of these creatures you are filling Verra with wont feel like they have any real impact on the world. I can see this becoming an issue with node events. NPC's with negligible impact, in my mind means less motivation to show up to those NPC attacks on nodes because a hand full of people can kill several NPC's very quickly and efficiently.
- The transition between tab target and action combat was so smooth I didn't even noticed it during the livestream.
- I'm not sure how I feel about the defensive/block stance... I am just un-sure where or how that would fit in into a tanks or any class rotation for that matter with the hybrid combat system. or how it effects the rotation per say.
Keep pushing forward, you guys are making great progress. I simply cannot wait for Alpha 2 to come so I can help provide more feedback with some hands on in-game hours under my belt.
- The impact of the attacks should be improved both for the player and the NPCs. In many instances it looked like the attacks weren't doing anything at all. Sure we can see damage counters but when we attack NPCs or other players I think adding weight to the impact of attacks would be great.
- Speed of weapons I think should be slower for larger and heavier weapons like the great sword where as smaller weapons like daggers should be notable faster. It was odd seeing how fast the greatsword was in comparison to daggers.
Everything else looked great and I love how things are coming together. Looking forward to Alpha 2 and being able to dip my toes in the water of this behemoth of a game soon!
I liked that there was no target indicator for the hammer skill, and I loved the impact decal on the ground afterwards. I like having to get the feel for my skill shots.
As long as the weapons have the impact and weight you're desiring, there is no reason to have this yellow after trail for the weapons as it almost detracts from the quality of work that the animation team has done by blinding the view of the weapons themselves.
2. Monster attacks feels unimportant. This should feel a little more impactful on the player and screen.
3. Please END the LURE n KILL many at a time mechanic, make aggroing multiple enemies at once feel like a really tough decision, one wich would only be acomplished with a party or if WAY stronger than the enemies. Hack n Slash combat feels dull after some time. Running trough monster infested fields while running from pvp should be a huge risk.
Decrease the thickness of the yellow animation when you swing.
That might be a bit too much attack speed for such a bigger class of weapon.
- For active blocking, especially when it comes to tanks, have a skill tree that helps to improve active blocking, but also makes it possible to be a more ability-based tank. I think this separation of play styles could make for a lot of fun combat and different dynamics to consider.
- For the animations of basic attacks, if they could follow some more real-life principles of weight balance and have them be swung (for this instance let's take the 2h sword), in a way that makes sense for that type of weapon. Just to help with immersion. I'd love to see intrepid bring in real-life weapon experts to get feedback on animations.
- Tone down some of the flash animations for basic attacks, we don't want our screens being filled with light in large-scale battles just from basic attacks. At the same time don't allow for particle effects in combat to be changed, as I want to see a dynamic being built around each weapon's various particles. Could be cool to see a group of mages cast fireballs, and use this as a smoke screen for DPS to start flanking. May not be the best example but still cool to think about.
Overall we will have to wait for A2 to give feedback on combat as a whole, but I like the direction we are moving in.
The biggest feedback I can offer (which I'm sure is just out of scope for Alpha 1) is that the SFXs that trigger when the weapon collider hits a certain material should change to the respective material type. It would definitely help the "impactfulness" of the swing.
I.E. swinging a weapon with a class of "large metal weapon" into a stone golem plays LrgMetalStoneHit.SFX. Swinging a small wooden club into a water elemental plays SmlWoodWaterHit.SFX.
It could even be implemented with spells too I.E. Frost spells hitting a fire elemental trigger a steam SFX.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far? I think the weight of the attacks with the Greatsword needs some work. I noticed there is little to no impact on the Golems until you defeat them, then they go flying off into pieces. They barely move or react when they are hit if at all. If the Greatsword really is at the high end of the scale for weightiness, you should be able to see that when you fight. It would be interesting to see the impact of attacks on less sturdy enemies to see how it compares. Also, for being one of the heaviest weapons it attacks pretty fast. I think it should be slowed down a bit. Based on those auto attacks, I can only imagine how fast a one handed sword will be. For it to feel impactful, you need to make sure the medium-heavy range weapons power can be felt in every attack, otherwise they are no different than the daggers flailing around rapidly.
The footwork needs improvement too. There are times when the character just floats across the ground during or after attacks. There are times when the character looks awkward because he is not stepping through attacks or stepping in the direction the attacks are going while moving. With the heavier weapon groups, It would make sense for your character to take wider steps/have a wider stance while swinging because of the weight of the weapon, especially during movement.
On top of that, I dislike the yellow tint in the auto attacks. I think it's too flashy and distracting for just a basic attack and should be reserved for class abilities and or weapon enchants. The silver tint that the dagger has would be better.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? The combat in The Witcher 3 felt really good because you could feel the impact on your attacks, the animations were excellent and combat flow was fluid.
i like swinging swords. over and over. im serious.
For me it is important that basic weapon attacks feel grounded in the world and fluid. Combat should still feel pretty visceral even when your character isn't launching massive skills.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Even though the combat looked and sounded really great, I feel like impact was missing from the fight, especially with the great sword. It would be cool if mobs visually reacted to heavy blows, but I suspect stagger animations could throw off the flow of combat. Adding some extra visual feedback like blood on humanoids or chipping rock on the elementals would go a long way for me.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
For me single player RPGs do this best, and a lot of MMOs tend to phone it in. I think games like Zelda or the Dark Souls series really nail basic attacks. These games don't have a ton of skills like most MMOs, and their combat has the type of grounded (not too flashy) style that is important to me.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am really excited for the progress the team displayed. Playing Alpha one, both the full body and split body styles felt a bit dated. Watching Steven showcase the improvements was really amazing. My only concern, as someone who loves heavy weapons was that if the great sword sets the high bar for heavy weapon impact it still felt a little fast and floaty for my taste. Perhaps slowing down speed while increasing damage per hit, increasing character root while offering broader range in the attack, or adding some visual feedback (see above). Overall, a minor critique for an amazing update.
Thank you!
I was excited when the combination of weight and sound was mentioned based on weapon type. It's hard to really gage how they feel verses what they look like without hands on but in time. It did appear during the showcase that the melee attacks were either quicker or sped up for the presentation. The characters race, level, and class type along with gear or general stats I imagine impacts the experience each individual character has with each weapon type and the proficiency they have with them such as speed or movements while wielding.
I was curious there were any plans or development for visual and statitistical ability to block also depending on weapon type, character stats etc. I mentioned this as it also appeared as if the dagger was able to easily block/parry the rock golem creatures. The showcase was limited to a large sword and daggers so my intention is not to be critical but merely curious.
Thus far my small group are excited to see more. Keep up the hard work.
o7
- I really enjoyed the sword combat seen, the sounds and visuals were very satisfying and just gave me a rush of dopamine looking at it lol. I think the animations were a little glitchy on the stream and that did take away from the experience, but obviously this is a beta so the core features were great.
- The ability that was shown was one of the coolest things shown off. The way you charge up the hammer and then just lay it down felt super powerful just by watching.
- I really liked the dagger combat shown and it looked awesome coming from the perspective of someone looking to play a dual dagger wielding rogue. The animations were quick, the effects looked great, and the sound really pulled it together for a solid base.
- I also like the movement shown with the dashing and whatnot. I plan to make a rogue that can teleport around and be hard to pin down so this looked really appealing to me. I would like to possibly see more variation in the basic attacks as to not be as repetitive (possibly a rare animation if there was to be a crit)
- I liked the way the abilities and basic attacks chained together and just gave a lot of weight and like Steven said a “kinetic” feel.
- I think you guys have the right idea when it comes to the fundamental plan that was talked about. Your movements correspond to your keyboard input so that moving and feeling is synonymous and immersive.
Fundamentally the idea you guys have of kinetic and inertia based movement is great thus far and I have little to criticize due to the limited amount of combat shown. I would love to see more of the complicated combat systems in the future to maybe see possible issues in specific classes or weapons.
Edit:
What’s great about watching this combat is it has me imagining the different situations I’ll be in while playing and I think that shows how effective and cool the new combat is. It’s enabling immersion which is important.
Issues I witnessed:
●Neither the player or mob react to/get staggered by heavy attacks, I think adding a temporary stagger effect for both sides makes the combat feel more impactful.
●The basic attacks for the Greatsword are too fast, it almost seems it's as fast as the dagger which makes the sword appear weightless. I think decreasing the speed by at least 15-20% would go a long way.
●When blocking, the player should still feel the impact of the attacks which seemed to be non-existent here.
●I'm hoping the Dash skill we saw isn't replacing the Dodge roll from earlier
WHAT I LOVED:
●The general direction combat is going for basic attacks
●The environmental effects caused by the basic attacks from the greatsword.
Excited to see how you guys move everything forward. I'll be posting more on the forums for sure. 😁
Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
My Pros:
My Con:
Game looks great and I can't wait to play when it comes out. I have mained a fury warrior in wow over many expansions and can't wait to try it out in AoC.
The earlier animation videos were concerning but if this is the extent of progress made, I’m not even sure I’m going to play this—and I desperately want to! I want this game to be good. I want to get my old guild back together and become a degenerate and ignore all of my responsibilities. I love everything I’ve heard Steven say about it until he praised this work.
I’m not going to start with the attacks. I’m going to start with the idle, the pose players will see the majority of the time. This is the most important pose, the one from which all others stem. The pose players will use in cities to peacock. It has to be perfect.
Idle
This pose is stiff and lacks personality. The character forms straight lines. The silhouette is boring. The sword is held awkwardly and pointed up, making it look like a weightless prop. Gravity isn’t acting upon it, there’s no strain in his shoulders or bracing in the legs. Greatswords weren’t actually very heavy but they’re long and have a center of balance.
Your animator didn’t even get up out of their chair, pick up a broom and look at themselves in a mirror. If they can’t craft an idle pose with physics and readability then they’re really going to be out of their element when it comes to animation.
Here are some YouTube dudes idling with giant swords:
These are more dynamic and interesting poses. “But the character has to be able to move around at a moment’s notice, they can’t just put the sword on the ground like that.” It could be a long idle but if that’s too complicated of a transition (why?), have it rest on his shoulder. “But it will clip through shoulder armor.” Clipping is far less of a problem than a boring idle stance and the fabric clips all over the place anyway.
This is a little better in that he has a wide stance but it still looks stiff. There’s no bending anywhere, no turn of the hips. What little bend of the knees there is gets covered by the clothing. I have to wonder if you’re trying to do too many cool things, like wind interaction, and not focusing on just making things look good. I, too, spend hours developing tools and go down GDC talk inspired rabbit holes…but at the end of the day, the systems have to work together. You can’t build a house without a solid foundation.
The back pose is the most important, it’s what players see all the time so it has to read well. The daggers seem like an afterthought, like he forgot he was holding them. Like he’s waiting for the bus.
Also, I don’t know if it’s just this model or outfit (I’d have to go look at old media), but in doing this draw-over I noticed the knees are too low which might be contributing to my problem with the running animation looking stocky and dwarf-like. The body proportions feel off. Is that the IK at play shoving the lower leg up into the thigh? Here’s a quick edit of the dagger idle with an angled foot, angled chest and arm out to form a stronger stance:
Jumping
This isn’t just “floaty,” he’s floating. Jumping is the second most important animation. This one certainly isn’t worth spamming your spacebar. I’m assuming (hoping) this is unfinished since the upper body is completely disconnected from the lower half; I’ll ignore that part but it’s not the only problem.
I kind of like the wild foot action but it’s cartoon rag doll and doesn’t fit this art style. The leg comes back at a strange angle. It’s a strong push off motion that implies lots of speed, as if he just took a running leap across a chasm in a platformer, but there was no anticipation frame, no squat, no force acting upon him. He was just suddenly in the air like Superman and falling off a hill.
Anticipation is something I haven’t seen in any of these animations whatsoever. If your animators are struggling with how to balance responsiveness and anticipation, the solution is to have frames players can feel but don’t see. It’s the wind up of a pitch. Without it, everything is floaty. There has to be at least one frame of anticipation before the hit, heavier attacks can have a little more. The movement should be communicated after the hit via follow through and recovery frames.
There’s some bounce at the end but it feels weak—and not just because the upper body is a plastic toy soldier. It would be easier to critique this if there were no cape. I like games that have different jumps depending on fall height but that kind of suggestion feels so pointless in the shadow that is your current problem.
Combat Intiation
Is he about to twerk or fight? Why is he bending over? Is this a mating dance taunt? This isn’t an offensive or a defensive stance, it seems like a placeholder. So moving on.
Blocking
He’s not defending his body at all, he’s not hunched or bracing for a hit, he’s blocking with his hands and not his sword; his fingers would get chopped off. I’m not saying things have to look realistic, I’m saying make things look real. There’s a disconnect again between upper and lower body as shown by the twist. There’s no feedback when hit by the enemy but that’s been covered and I’ll assume it’s unfinished work.
When you do animate the impact, put his whole body into it. Allow the player to animation cancel but play that response animation during the time it’ll take them to press the next button.
Combat
I’m going to break down this gif:
Ignoring this terrible transition, there’s no anticipation in the first attack. He’s already got his leg up all willy nilly, it’s a confused lunge pose and the sword looks like it’s about to fly out of his hands. He’s in the air out of nowhere. Imagine if he crouched or leaned back for just one frame before the attack starts? It would blend the animations and provide anticipation. There are three frames of the sword descending before the hit frame, you can get rid of them and replace them with anticipation. It will feel stronger and snappier. You can move his feet without moving the player’s position—in fact, you have to.
Again with the upper/lower body out of center. He’s slashing off to the side like a drunkard about to tip over. I don’t read any force in his stance. Not sure I’m into a giant lens flare indicating a hit either. Many posters have already said the enemy lacks a stagger, I’d call it a flinch since he shouldn’t stagger from a normal attack, but they’re right. At the very least throw in some rock particles, your VFX artists seem to really want to make stuff…
…because what is this? This is where we go from bad animation to terrible animation.
Why is this so delayed when now is the time for follow through? Why does it not follow the arc of the sword which was farther to the left? Why is it glowing enough to light up the environment?!
I’m going to assume your animation wasn’t reading so you added huge trails to try to solve it instead of reading The Animator’s Survival Kit. This is not a smear, this is a monstrosity. People are saying the attacks are too fast but what they’re really saying is that they can’t follow the action. Animation is the communication of motion and you aren’t communicating anything with this arc. It stays on the screen for a long time and actually slows the movement. It’s an aftereffect that just becomes a distracting strobe light.
If there were a smear on the frame right before the hit frame, a smear on the hit frame, and then the smear disappearing on the frame after it, now you have an object that’s moving so fast you needed to use a smear (but maybe you didn’t need a smear in the first place; maybe you broke the sword or the arm, maybe you relied on timing, maybe…).
(Slowed down.)
This trail is even worse. It’s completely detached in both distance AND angle AND timing. It’s like the people who worked on this were completely blind to what the other was doing. Even if we were to imagine the sword did follow that path, it slows its movement instead of enhances it.
Then he does some ice skating. I’m all for player control but the movement needs to be animated. He should sidestep or lean. This will sometimes look wonky—you can’t fix everything—but I always appreciate the effort to avoid ice skating.
After that he holds a follow through frame for a really long time for some reason. This is what people are calling hitstop but it’s not. Hitstop holds on the HIT frame for impact/readability and is Good, this is Bad and holds on a follow through frame. This makes the attack look like it’s in a flip book at best or that the game froze at worst. I hate all of this so much more now that I’m writing about it.
Animation is hard. Animators spend their entire lives trying to master it. In this video, you have two engineers and a game designer talking vague nonsense about what “feels” good and how to “hone in” on it by studying other games instead of studying animation. Combat IS animation. One of them says, “We started by chopping up animations to build an ability we thought felt good and then [...] passed it off to animation.”
I’m not going to simply blame this result on having no animation lead because it looks like you have no animators. Unless your systems are collapsing underneath the weight of each other, the animators could have salvaged whatever was brought to them. I see you, animator. I see your reel full of quality work that got you hired. Maybe you’re way better than this but now you’re resentful about being led by someone who doesn’t know what you know, who took your beautifully crafted animations and forced you to turn them into this. Maybe now all you want to do is ship the game and move on. Maybe you’re doing the bare minimum to get that paycheck and no one knows any better and I'm blowing up your spot.
Or maybe you’re way in over your head, I don’t know.
So then he’s a spinny boy. He actually pauses at this point in his swing, when he’s already in full motion, and holds it for two frames, completely ruining the momentum. People can feel extra frames the same way they can feel split second anticipation frames.
Then bam, he’s done with his spinny action, but this arc doesn’t start at his sword point or the beginning of his motion. It starts way out in no man’s land. And then it doesn’t end at his sword, where the movement stopped, it keeps going and glowing and taking up all screen real estate and blinding the entire battlefield. I hope it grows large enough to destroy his entire reality.
I’m being really hard on this trail but it’s not bad in a vacuum. It’s the fact it’s not accompanying the sword and trying to steal the show by being movement where there is no movement. And that it glows. Your VFX artists are good but their leadership is not. Someone needs to have an eye for the whole of the work, know when to dial it down and have the finished animation ready for them before they begin.
I think the entire attack was a missed opportunity to tween the spin.
This mighty warrior has spun himself into the dirt. This is a sad recovery frame. I wouldn’t feel powerful playing this guy, he looks like he can’t even pick up his sword. He always looks off balance, like he can be tipped over in the slightest breeze.
What does mighty warrior do to lift his weapon? He bends his legs like a robot, keeps them that way instead of continuing the squish, and doesn’t need to wind up his attack. He’s just that good.
?????
I have to stop. This is depressing. I didn’t even get to the daggers, the weapon I'd likely be using as a player.
This isn’t just early footage, these aren’t technical limitations—these lack the principles of animation. Watch real fighters fight. Watch real people walk. Get up and act it out. Don’t watch other animators’ work, you aren’t ready.
Combat and its animation is what's going to make or break your game. None of the other beloved systems you've slaved over are going to matter if the combat isn’t right. It’s a deal breaker for almost every player whether they know it or not. You’ve hidden the bad animation behind bright VFX and fooled people for now. Many won’t know how to put into actionable words what’s wrong, as evidenced by this thread, but they’ll certainly feel it when they play. And then they’ll stop playing.
I beg of you, hire skilled animators.
I loved the mobility while slashing enemies and the responsiveness from the npcs to our attacks.
I liked that i could tell which mobs got hit and which werent - the effect wasnt annoying like the blinking effect in BDO
The only thing that i found a little annoying was the sound effect on the slashes - im a player that plays like 6+ hours a session and hearing these sounds + probably the same soundeffects from my party members would be annoying^^
I dont like the blocking - would prefer blocks & counters with abilities, but i will try it first before judging. (im mostly playing mobile tanks like the warrior in Tera, dodging attacks is more my style)
please make a spot test for this when there is a feeling of impact from the weapon - doesnt have to be a big spot test - small area with different enemies that are ready to show would be enough.
this gameplay and a good feeling of impact from hits is hard to do.
Keep up the good work!
From an animation stand point the more frames it takes from windup to impact then follow through & recovery adds to the weighted feel. The inertia during & after an attack with a heavy weapon should matter. It would look silly to have someone wielding a giant sword & have no penalty to their movement. Damage is another deciding factor of the feeling of weight. Too little damage for a heavy weapon doesn't feel rewarding & too much damage could break certain aspects of the game. Finally stagger, hit stun, & additional on hit weapon effects have to be relative to the weapons speed. I'm not a huge fan of hit stun or stagger in an MMO. It sounds like a balancing nightmare to be honest. Me not being a fan however doesn't mean I'm against it. I'm not sure how you would balance it.
Additional weapon effects could be fun. A Heavy weapon with an arbitrary number percentage, let's say 8%, chance to cause a status effect, DoT effect, or extra damage on hit while a light weapon might only have a lesser percentage chance, let's say 1%, to do the same thing. The percentage will be based on attacks per minute for each category of weapon, heavy, medium, light, ranged, magic, hybrid, etc.
General feedback
--
Speed
The speed of the swings so far looks a tad too fast.
Style
The basic animations, like the weapon trails, seemed a bit to cartoony/eye-catching. Like on the sword, the yellow trails were pretty big and bright. That may clash with people's fashion, but also, it kind of reminded me of a 2D fighting game sword slash.
Class Identity
If weapons aren't really related to class kits (contrasted in the Guild Wars 2 combat system), then the affects should probably be more neutral. In GW2, they add colors and flourishes that reinforce the class's identity. An elementalist using a sword is difference than a guardian using a sword is different than a ranger using a sword. Since they use the same weapons differently, with different skills, having class-related affects on the attacks help to identify the class and skills they're using. Since AoC won't be tying the weapon skills to classes in that fashion, I think it's better to have the visual affects be more neutral, and allow for class flavor to show through. (I suppose my whole point is moot if the yellow sword trail was due to it being a weapon-master swinging the sword, as opposed to "this is what a sword swing looks like".)
Multi-player skills
One side note, I think you already have this in mind, but please continue to consider "group" skills. Like in GW2, if 3 rangers use a certain warhorn skill at the same time, a spirit wolf is summoned for a short time. That effect is more of a fun easter egg than a useful attack. I believe you've talked about having a group of summoners be able to work together to summon an extra large siege monster, so that would be awesome.
Overall, I'm really liking the direction that you guys are taking it.
A good mmo that had similar basic melee attack was Archeage with the melee's triple slash (it's not really a basic attack but it's one skill without cooldown) it works the same and can have some variences like quicker but less damage or quicker but single target.
The fact the last swing deals more damage is a really good idea, it rewards the player that manage to do a full triple slash rotation, maybe giving it a little effect like pulling foes or applying a small debuff could be good aswell.
Hopefully the skills coming with the basic weapon attacks will have enough impact not to make the basic skills too important so it's not a full left click + dodge while waiting for skills cooldowns combat system
It looks like this has been brought up and I'm sure it is simply unfinished, but the only real complaints I had were more nitpicks than anything, the blocking didn't have any impact or weight and some of the basic attack effects for the Greatsword were a little too bright and distracting. Also I'm concerned that AoE might become highly dominant since it looks like all melee is cleaving through loads of enemies, is there an idea or system in play(or theory) that the team is thinking about to prevent this? or is the team embracing AoE and building encounters around it?
But really that was all I didn't enjoy, the animations and effects weren't really what you were showing off though(from what I understand at least), despite that however I really enjoyed the approach of them. I also thought the actual attack speed of the Greatsword was perfect, it looked weighty and satisfying. Coming from someone who was very interested in this game for a long time, and someone who was maybe a little nervous about where combat was going to go in the future, whenever Alpha One was up, you have not only calmed my worries, but gotten me genuinely excited to spend innumerable time exploring the world and trying out every weapon I find, as well as fight whatever crazy enemies exist in Verra, I cannot wait to see what else this team can do and blow me away with! Ultimately my take away is that this is the approach Ashes should take with their combat system, and I am super excited!
I'd prefer daggers to not have a slash type animation. To me, they're short, pointy stabby things. They're designed for thrusting, not slashing.
Hacking and slashing should be delegated to axes, maces and swords
Second on the point of daggers is reverse grip. Honestly, I'm not a fan. Works in Hollywood, but knives typically aren't about power strikes. They're finesse movements, striking areas of weakness with precision. A forward grip is far more realistic.
I'd also like to see positional advantage when using attacks like being behind a target critically strikes more.
Animation wise there are some games where striking a target will slightly stop the frame as the weapon collides and resume to normal when the weapon follows through. It *feels* like collision is happening.
I think camera shake does add immersion, but it needs to be subtle. You don't want your monitor wobbling off into the solar system.
Anyway, quite pleased with your demo. Keep it up!
so instead of just picking a middle-ground and locking us with that setting, give us Sliders so we can bump a Huge ass camera shake loads of effects and weapon trails, and a slider to significantly turn that down for people that don't like that kind of thing
however, also pay attention on things that give PvP/PvE advantage such as grass/vegetation like steven mentioned, if there is a spell that is supposed to cause let's say, a black hole or a wall that prevents you from seeing on ultra settings, people on Low settings should not be able to bypass that - this would just force everyone to play on low settings due to the significant advantage