AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
The dashes and active blocking were the ABSOLTUE best parts that got me excited the most, so please keep them.
Active blocking is very important for counter-plays and teamplay strategies such as stalling for cooldowns or HP/MP/stamina regens or holding a strong enemy or an enemy with counter-class who's focuses on you. (Ashes follows a rock-paper-scissor class balance)
Take the good from other MMOs, and leave the bad.
I recommend *starting with* copying BDO active blocking system, then adjusting it later to our own system befitting for Ashes' "Group PVP focused hybrid combat" as we test the game.
Just in case, I will explain how BDO's blocking system works:
BDO's blocking system have its own HP "Guard gauge" which scales from all defense stats except evasion, but evasion works while blocking. Guard gauge regenerates gradually when not blocking.
Tank classes of course have a much stronger block from passives, buffs which trigger with Block skill, wider range, can walk and even use shield attacks while blocking. The buffs and passives can be both offensive and defensive.
Things to avoid:
* RNG CC(crowd control), with the exception of immunity buffs, and evaded attacks(RNG). Being immobilized is not fun. There are alternatives to escaping CC, please avoid the stereotype "One escape skill for all classes with a long 5 minutes cooldown" as in Archeage and BDO. My favorite escapes & dodges were in Dragon Nest, every class have unique escapes & dodging animation, and in different numbers(more escapes for rogues, less for tanks).
*Conditional damage modifiers such as back attack, down attack, air attack, can be too powerful when combined with critical hit modifier. My suggestion is only use back attack, and only WITHIN the skills themselves. For example: This skill from Archeage have backstab 600% bonus. https://archeage.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowsmite EDIT: Elemental modifiers are similar to critical damage, they are not conditional, therefore they are fine as well.
*Superarmor(SA) spam: If there will be superarmor in Ashes of Creation, don't do it like BDO where we have to spam SA skills to stay standing up. Give every skill its own weight(SA) & impact(SA Break). If the impact of an attack is higher than the weight of enemy's attack, the enemy's attack breaks and staggers. Dragon Nest did this very well. (Link below explains further on how SA & SA break works, with examples, and more) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PMrzSRCuqBxOUsSpIUnh70-_uQRIkV3fZdOvaJ0rejc/edit#gid=29
If you have a better idea, that's fine too, I hope you at least read it.
Final note: Animation speed looks fine as it is. It doesn't need to be as fast as BDO, where it become very ping-reliant(Not good for NA/EU because players are too far apart IRL. BDO was "made for Koreans, KR is small", devs said) and even higher FPS can affect animation speed and cause desync issues in PVP.
Hope I'm not too late to the party with this, I'm a dirty lil procrastinator
I was surprised but happy about the direction you guys are going with Basic Melee Weapon Combat!
- What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
I enjoy combos that have versatility with the amount of hits you can do with each attack within a string, having different properties for each attack (hyper armor on 2nd attack, builds stun on 3rd attack, knocks the opponent into the air which can be followed up into air combo follow ups, increase crit or damage on the third attack string etc.), and versatility to chain different attacks or gain new combo routes depending on button combinations (AAA, BBB, AAB, BBA, ABA, BAB).
- Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I felt that some of the attack animations on the 2H Sword can keep their overall animation speeds but tweak the anticipation frames by adding a few more frames, remove a few active frames then add a couple of recovery frames. However, this might require the team to change the animations themselves to give players a better perception of weight and inertia to their swings...
Enemies and players should have a flinch animation or limb shake animation that increases in intensity depending on the strength of the attack when being hit to visually give a sense of weight and impact to attacks. I feel like some attacks, mainly from the 2H Great Sword and maybe future weapons to be showcase, should have a few extra impact frames that briefly pause both the enemy and player in the middle of their animations to also give players a better sense of weight and impact. This suggestion might remove a small amount of player agency in movement, but I think this might also give players a split second to be aware of their surroundings and react accordingly, especially in the massive hectic PvP battles. Ideally a concept that I would like to see for impact frames would be something like the first 6 frames be in slow motion then the next 10 frames gradually ramp back up to normal animation speeds to give attacks a visually cinematic flair. These numbers aren't the exact amount that I want to see, and they would also change values depending on the attack and weapon, but I would really appreciate it if you guys can pull this off! To get a good idea of what I'm trying to say, watch the hit stun animations in Street Fighter 6 and compare them to 5.
Maybe a visual nitpick that I have that you guys can easily fix without me telling you is the footwork on some of the attack animations. Gliding/skating feet may always be a necessary evil for a lot of action games, but If you guys can limit that the best that you can then that would be great for visual consistency. Remember to have clear pivot points on the feet when rotating and include small quick hops whenever necessary when a model needs to widen their stance, which you guys did a great job with the Dual Daggers! My nitpick starts at the very beginning of this clip: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxw33XOoP_r0E_6YbQn9owWjepa_m2sL3O
I might be going outside the box of this discussion topic, but on the giant hammer ability I feel like the player model should step into the swing when bringing the hammer down to give it some more oomph. Here's a visual clip to show what I mean: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxnQ0egCO6HCT8mXseXb1RtncAdxY4S2UX
- Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Monster Hunter Sunbreak pretty much does most of everything that I've previously stated when answering the first question. Sekiro is a game that is simple but has enough depth to its combat that can bring anyone into a flow state once you get in tune to the mechanics. However, one the most important components to any action game are good enemy designs that also complement the player's mechanics. I like to see my enemies actually aim with their attacks, parry my own attacks and abilities, dodge and weave my attacks and reposition themselves to prepare a massive counterattack on me. I like to dance with my enemies, a violent, yet elegant dance. Many Tab Target MMOs that I've seen don't really do that and BDO enemies are just fodder to be toyed with, so I hope you guys can shake up the genre.
Thank you for reading and I can't wait to see what the future holds in store!
maybe a bit less of the glow on basic attacks. the swings also did seem to be a little quick.
part of the ue5 was that when you step on the ground your foot doesn't sink in and it looks like you are standing on the ground. can you make it so that when you do hit the target that the blades could bounce a little to show visually that it hit them and not be the 100 mob fights where you just swing through everything in 1 hit? if someone swings and it gets blocked can you make the swing, so it stops the swing that you see?
please do not put in animation canceling.
if you do then it becomes how fast can you cancel the thing and do the next.
why did you make the animation if you are going to then let people cancel it?
the animation is part of the combat and swing balance, unless you are going to put the damage done at the end of the swing so if you cancel it, you don't do the damage of that swing. part of it is doing higher damage should root you in place longer (with some skills that might reduce that some) like an archer trying to do rain of arrows, roots him in spot for 10 seconds to cover a 50-foot area. the mage who casts a meteor spell, gets rooted in place for 10 seconds to hit a 10-foot area for a ton of damage, same thing for a sword swing, you do a ton of damage with a heavy attack to a cone in front of you, you get rooted for a time for that swing.. if you let people cancel out then i do the huge damage and have no negative from doing it.
I made a comment in an old thread about some combat related things yesterday, but now I realize this would be a better place for it. To be honest, its not directly related to the footage we saw. But its something I'd like to get out there and maybe hear what other people think about it.
I think, personally, that weight of combat is not only important for your character, but the effect on enemies. One thing that repels my friends and me from most MMORPGs is that attacks, for the most part, don't feel impactful. I realize combat is no easy feat for an MMO developer, but it seems like most attacks, if not all, have no effect on some enemies. What I mean by that is, in my experience, there is no way to stagger enemies, or knock them off balance, or do a nice little chunk of damage. This is an unfair comparison, but for example in the Souls games/Elden ring and so on, there are mechanics in the game to do just such a thing and it feels great. You can stack bleed and fill up and enemies "bleed bar" for a large burst of damage, or hit them with enough large attacks with a blunt weapon to stagger them a bit and then capitalize with some quick, high(er) damage attacks. Like I said, its an unfair comparison. But It would be great if Ashes could break the cycle of these massive boss fights where everyone is just "waterfalling" their ability bar repeatedly, and the boss, or even just elite style enemy just sits there and takes it to the face.
Maybe I am a part of the minority but I can speak for my friends and myself that some kind of mechanic similar to the ones I stated previously were considered for the game. I think it has a massive impact on the amount of fun to be had on debatably the most important mechanic in the game for player retainability.
Edit: This could have already been touched on by a dev, but I missed it if it was.
Edit: To answer the feedback questions: Love the look of the weight of melee attacks. It would be great if there was a heavy "basic attack" that maybe was charged up and took a little more stamina. I guess what I'm trying to say in all of this is to make the impact of attacks carry the same weight not only from an animation standpoint, but from a mechanical standpoint as well. I'd LOVE a stagger, backstab, status effect on hit, or anything similar to be a part of the game. I realize that would be an absurd amount of animations for all the different creatures in the game, but I'm relatively certain we are all on board with the whole "not releasing until its ready" thing, although, I'm only speaking for myself on the "impact" topic.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
1. Balance between tab/action system in pvp.
2. A basic Dodge mechanic being capped at 2-3 dashes with a very small time window where you are unstoppable and untargetable -> skill based to allow players with strong reactions to react to fatal attacks.
3. Damage feedback in terms of animation (being hit by a strong attack makes you unable to react for a
sec/half a sec and leads to an animation showing exactly that -> different knock back animations and distances per spell/attack from monsters with picture shaking. also animation canceling from monsters attacks if you hit them with heavy attacks and actual feedback by mobs interacting with different attacks.)
Why do i think this is important? Dodging is an important mechanic that shouldnt be spammable but in terms of skill offers a nice opportunity to escape from massive attacks, that you should better not be hit by. if you dodge too early or too late it doesnt get rewarded but the right timing forces the player to progress in combat and get a feeling for timings. The animation stuff leads to very individual experiences with the mobs and to a combat where you cant just spam but have to figure out the combos/attacks of each monster. For some people it will just be annoying because they have to actually use their brain, but i think most players would appreactiate it to study each skill/attack of each individual monster so they have to adapt every single fight and use their skills to easily defeat the monster. otherwise it wouldnt be impossible but way harder and less rewarding. By making the attacks from the individual monsters as individual as possible, it wouldnt get annoying or boring because every different monster would represent a new challenge to be successfully completed. So many games just copy paste monsters, give them different looks/sounds, but the attacks stay the same so its not a new experience at all, just the same enemie with some different visuals. in this case, my combat preferences would just be annoying, because it wouldnt be very skill based.
Last but not least, make the attacks randomized and reaction based. dont give monsters the same attack frequency / combo frequency repeating itself over time. Attacks being charged randomly force the player to be actually aware during a fight, because he cant just follow a system, but has to react to certain attacks to successfully avoid them.
PS: Already informing you: im not a native speaker so pls excuse some mistakes if made.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
First of all: i love the improvements you already made and i am very very looking forward for future updates and love all your hard work so far. Of course there are always some minor things to discuss about, but overall you can be very proud of your achievements.
1. First thing i noticed: during walking there are footprints but during attacking there arent and yet it seems a bit floaty and like there are not enough steps/legmovement inbetween the attacks so it looks like its floating sometimes. The upper body also looks very seperate from the lower body, almost like he has very much mobility in his lumbar spine. but thats just a very small notice, so overall prob improve the movement by its ongoing movement and physiological movement chains. (saying that as a german physiotherapist)
2. the animation thing i noticed in the first question.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Many people gonna laugh about it and i would agree in the early states, but New World has a decent meele combat and damage feedback with clean animations. It was and still is pretty clunky, but it improved a lot in contrast to the early release. I hate the dumb stamina decision and combining dodge with block, which should definitely be seen separately, but overall most players enjoyed the melee combat system if nw over all wasnt that buggy and stuff.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I love action combat systems and hate tab targetting, which is of course just a personal preference. but if we are able to chose between both and are capable of pvp, please make it balanced. i really wana enjoy pvp, but if it ends up in being totally broken for tab target (because of autoaim) and a disadvantage if using action combat, it will dissapoint a lot of players or rather make them really sad.
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.
I think a cool feature could be footprints (every 4. eg.) stay on the ground for a certain amount of time (way longer if the prints are from a corrupted) and show different colours for each pvp type. the colouration should be very decent so it doesnt look like kaka, but decent enough so you are capable of seeing it from a close distance (lets say 6 feet e.g.). so if there was a corrupted arround, you could tell by the red footprints and so avoid the player by knowing he was near some minutes ago. non pvp players could then avoid the corrupted one by walking into another direction but huntsman or bounty hunter on the other hand could follow them by using this feature. so the idea would be footprints from innocents have no colouration, so hard to see and dont stay long. prints from combatant are green and last only a little longer so corrupted/combatans dont have too much time noticing them. corrupted ones stay the longest and are coloured red. It should over all not be too easy to notice footprints and abuse this kind of feature. to avoid abusing, you can e.g. only let every 12. double steps retain on the ground so by moving in different directions weirdly during walking it wont be easy to follow them. -> in bushes and high grass its also more difficult to follow etc. there are many and easy ways to balance this feature but mostly make it possible for innocents or combatans to notice footprints of bloody killers that may camp somewhere so they are avoidable.
I appreciate to give the community the opportunity to share their thoughts.
11. I am very concerned about the hybrid system as a whole and how that is going to work in terms of balance. Having some players with 75% TAB and others with 75% action seems to make a genre that is already very hard to balance, near impossible to balance. I am also concerned about having to use a hotkey to switch between a crosshair and TAB to be able to use the action skills. I know you can just point your cursor in a direction in TAB to cast action skills, but I personally would prefer just getting rid of the hotkey to switch modes and just have all action abilities cast from TAB using ground targeting or maybe a reticle for some of them that turns on when you press down the skill, and then you fire the skill by releasing the button and the reticle goes away again. This would just make it more seamless and less clunky.
I also have a bad feeling about the need to switch between a crosshair and TAB.
They can use strong targeting when using tab skills in action combat cameras and have less of a need to swap between them. Though this only relates to action camera using tab skills.
Really like the direction of this massive change to combat. Although it is early, the greatsword seems to recover too quickly when changing directions as if there is no inertia. But from the comments I see a lot of people already saying this. Also, love the colours that are given to the swings, I think it would be great if each base spec is given its own colour to easily identify which class it is.
AoC is starting to look very good. I like the speed and size of the weapons. The most important aspect of melee weapon attacks to me is timing. The melee attacks need to land when your on target or miss if your off target. Ensuring this happens in PvP and open world combat with other players will be the real test.
I'm probably in the minority here but I think dropping tab target and focusing on weighted action combat is a better way to go. Better to have a really polished system rather than two mediocre systems in place where you constantly have to make sure 1 doesn't have the upper hand over the other. Just nip it in the bud now, rip off the band-aid.
I really like the idea of stagger and moves that matter. Especially in PVP, this prevents spam fest hack slash where all you do is just spam left click over and over. I'm sure some will attempt to argue mass pvp and issues with stagger, but systems can most certainly be implemented to prevent stagger locks.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it... never gonna get it !!!
If Steven has to choose - he's going to choose Tab Target; rather than Action Combat.
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it... never gonna get it !!!
If Steven has to choose - he's going to choose Tab Target; rather than Action Combat.
I'm fine with either, but choose one and make it amazing. Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for making everyone upset rather than only one group. Look at New World. They initially had an amazing pvp game concept for a specific group of people. And then they tried to cater to everyone and got overwhelmed with the number of issues introduced. They could have just stuck to their core audience and prevented a lot of it.
Tab target can still work fine with meaningful skill rotations/punishments for messing up etc. Point is, that most people recognize something that is done really well, not multiple things that are average.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well, with Ashes, Hybrid Combat has been the plan all along.
With New World, PvE was an after-thought... way late in development.
Mmm right.. because they catered to everyone instead of their core audience and tried to do everything for everyone (I'm talking about the roots of the problem, you're talking about the symptoms, after the fact)
Plans change, it's development. Hence why they want feedback. If you have some logical points to actually articulate, then you should post them. That's what feedback is all about; Sound rational points that explain the reasoning behind someone's thought process. I've just expressed mine. Posting what you think Steven will do isn't a sound argument. It's just you trying to appropriate a position on the design team, which I don't think you're a part of.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
I didn't post what I think Steven will do, I informed you what Steven said he would do.
And I stated that the problem with New World is that they changed their original plan late in development, whereas the plan for Ashes has always been Hybrid Combat.
That is very simple logic.
Pretty sure his point is it is like 6+ years things change in development. You can't hold all information said many years ago like it is the bible. You need to see what they are currently doing, saying and the direction as well as the feedback people give.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
LMAO.
Steven said one year ago that if they had to make a choice of one or the otther because they can't get Hybrid Combat to work, it will be Tab Target. And also last month both Steven and Vaknar stated the team is still committed to Hybrid Combat, so...
You know... maybe people should be aware of what the devs have stated what they will do, instead of championing ideas the devs have never said they will do.
LMAO.
Steven said one year ago that if they had to make a choice of one or the otther because they can't get Hybrid Combat to work, it will be Tab Target. And also last month both Steven and Vaknar stated the team is still committed to Hybrid Combat, so...
You know... maybe people should be aware of what the devs have stated what they will do, instead of championing ideas the devs have never said they will do.
Comment is to you on all topics of gameplay don't be disappointed if things change. You will read quotes from years ago like a bible as if things can't change in active development. There has been no indication that it isn't going to work, you are just saying random quotes at this point not back up by what is happening in development. Also maybe take a look through the forum and see what people are saying again and see what they want.
"You need to see what they are currently doing, saying and the direction as well as the feedback people give."
You know... maybe people should be aware of what the devs have stated what they will do, instead of championing ideas the devs have never said they will do.
lol dude....they are literally asking for feedback on how you think the combat should progress. It's in the name of the thread. Quit being a troll and trying to be the arbiter of truth here as if you're a part of the AoC team. Again, you're not.
The only idea I've championed is what I would like to see because guess what? It's....feeeeeedback. Take your "ho ho ho never gonna get it" holier than thou comment and get over yourself mate. All you did was pay some extra money for a game, just like the rest of us.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
Yep. I didn't say don't give feedback.
I just shared the info of what the devs have already said --recently-- and you wanted to argue.
So... who's trollin'??
Yep. I didn't say don't give feedback.
I just shared the info of what the devs have already said --recently-- and you wanted to argue.
So... who's trollin'??
Guy is giving his feedback, it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not your whole purpose for posting was to try to shut down his feedback. Why don't you go to that for a ton of other post that are pro action and try to argue with everyone on the forum lmao.
Never gonna get it, never gonna get it... never gonna get it !!!
If Steven has to choose - he's going to choose Tab Target; rather than Action Combat.
lolol riiiiight. If that was your true intention you would have said so in a much more neutral tone. You could have simply said, "Steven has mentioned in previous scenarios that he would most likely go with tab target over action combat if the hybrid doesn't work"
and then referenced the material/sources in your statement to back it up.
See how much of a difference in tone that is rather than your childish prefaced "never gana get it" comment? Don't try to play coy now.
But even with that said, this thread is for the devs to hear input from players about what they want to see in combat. Not for you to try and disparage someone else's feedback because you don't like it. All I did was an attempt to post my own interest in combat. Your input was entirely unnecessary. This is for the devs, not you.
No, I'm not going to argue with you about it. But I do have an issue with someone who tries to assert themselves on a requested feedback thread and then act as if they are the final say on a matter they disagree with when they are not in a position to do so. I'm not just going to roll over, I'm going to address it. And now I'm going to simply ignore your wasteful attempts to salvage this conversation. Please go back to Reddit and let others post their feedback and what they would like to see in-game in peace as this is not your own personal discussion/thread. Go start one if that's what you want. What a waste of words, sheesh.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
@Mag7spy
Yeah, guy gave some feedback. I shared some info... and he wants to fight.
@Drungle
I don't know what you mean by "assert myself". I didn't say anything about what I don't like.
I shared info about what the devs have said. And then defended that info when you chose to argue.
I'm not going to be overly concerned about perceived tone on the internet. I'm happy to match your tone.
But, we should be all good now, right?
Animation readability is great, the basic attack animations are obviously distinct from actual cooldown abilities that were shown alongside them, and not super over the top. The movement/dash ability looked fantastic and fun, and the animations looked fluid and with intuitive amounts of movement restriction. Really great!
My primary concern is not really with the attacks themselves, but with the topic and philosophy of mobility that was briefly touched on by Steven, that slow effects are not really a focus of the pvp, and that combatants should be able to move around the battlefield together. If paired with a similar mindset when it comes to mobility/dash abilities, kiting and and mobility really lose a lot of value if it becomes very easy for any spec to stay on top of any other spec. Mashing whichever wasd key in whatever direction the other guy happens to be going and matching their dash 1 for 1 with no thought to positioning so you can continue spamming 1 while waiting on CDs is not really fun and active combat, when relative to the other guy, you have not actually moved at all (See: BDO iframe dash/dodging hell).
Definitely looks like a good system for basic attacks, but even when the attacks are good on their own, it'd be very easy to place too little or too much emphasis on them depending on the general rotation and flow of other skills.
The over all look I liked. The only thing I didn’t care for was how often the characters could use dash. In pve it would be fine but in pvp I would find it annoying. Maybe limit the amount of dashes or make it a longer cool down
I really like the direction that is being taken on the basic attack combat. These attacks look powerful and impactful. I am looking forward to the next Devblog that showcases combat.
Something I noticed right away was the active blocking being added to the game. This alone has peaked my interest. Any modern MMO should have active blocking. Being able to actively mitigate feels better to me than hoping my character will block randomly. Having the option to have more agency over a player character feels better.
It looks like the basic attack animation is potentially hold left click to go through the cycle. I think that is fine. I am getting tired of the tab target systems MMO's have. Hands on action combat that has aiming is something that no other MMO's are doing right now and honestly I really think the genre needs to start heading in that direction. This first look gives me confidence that Ashes of Creation is heading in that direction.
I am not sure what the plan is with interaction with certain creatures/enemies in the game but something that would be cool to see is different weapons having different affects on certain creatures. If it is not the weapons then maybe the effects on a weapon could interact with enemies. One of the coolest things you can do in a Dark souls esque game is put fire grease on your weapon and when you fight an enemy that is weak/scared of fire the enemy reacts to it.
The over all look I liked. The only thing I didn’t care for was how often the characters could use dash. In pve it would be fine but in pvp I would find it annoying. Maybe limit the amount of dashes or make it a longer cool down
I am speaking out my ass here but Steven usually uses god mode when doing the demonstration videos. I would hazard a guess that he was probably just spamming it for show off purposes rather than it being a demonstration of the skill and cds etc. I feel as though you will not have to worry about that
On your latest video it highlights the great sword, and I know it's been brought up but I will reiterate as you will want to just tidy this up and make sure this quality is on all your attack animations:
One issue in this animation I see is on the third swing around the body it very quickly goes into the start of the next animation. It really needs a more natural transition where the blade ends for the final animation and when the first animation begins.
Sound is much more impressive in this video mind you which is a plus.
Comments
Active blocking is very important for counter-plays and teamplay strategies such as stalling for cooldowns or HP/MP/stamina regens or holding a strong enemy or an enemy with counter-class who's focuses on you. (Ashes follows a rock-paper-scissor class balance)
Take the good from other MMOs, and leave the bad.
I recommend *starting with* copying BDO active blocking system, then adjusting it later to our own system befitting for Ashes' "Group PVP focused hybrid combat" as we test the game.
Just in case, I will explain how BDO's blocking system works:
BDO's blocking system have its own HP "Guard gauge" which scales from all defense stats except evasion, but evasion works while blocking. Guard gauge regenerates gradually when not blocking.
Tank classes of course have a much stronger block from passives, buffs which trigger with Block skill, wider range, can walk and even use shield attacks while blocking. The buffs and passives can be both offensive and defensive.
Things to avoid:
* RNG CC(crowd control), with the exception of immunity buffs, and evaded attacks(RNG). Being immobilized is not fun. There are alternatives to escaping CC, please avoid the stereotype "One escape skill for all classes with a long 5 minutes cooldown" as in Archeage and BDO. My favorite escapes & dodges were in Dragon Nest, every class have unique escapes & dodging animation, and in different numbers(more escapes for rogues, less for tanks).
*Conditional damage modifiers such as back attack, down attack, air attack, can be too powerful when combined with critical hit modifier. My suggestion is only use back attack, and only WITHIN the skills themselves. For example: This skill from Archeage have backstab 600% bonus.
https://archeage.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowsmite
EDIT: Elemental modifiers are similar to critical damage, they are not conditional, therefore they are fine as well.
*Superarmor(SA) spam: If there will be superarmor in Ashes of Creation, don't do it like BDO where we have to spam SA skills to stay standing up. Give every skill its own weight(SA) & impact(SA Break). If the impact of an attack is higher than the weight of enemy's attack, the enemy's attack breaks and staggers. Dragon Nest did this very well. (Link below explains further on how SA & SA break works, with examples, and more)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PMrzSRCuqBxOUsSpIUnh70-_uQRIkV3fZdOvaJ0rejc/edit#gid=29
If you have a better idea, that's fine too, I hope you at least read it.
Final note: Animation speed looks fine as it is. It doesn't need to be as fast as BDO, where it become very ping-reliant(Not good for NA/EU because players are too far apart IRL. BDO was "made for Koreans, KR is small", devs said) and even higher FPS can affect animation speed and cause desync issues in PVP.
Thank you for reading ♥
I was surprised but happy about the direction you guys are going with Basic Melee Weapon Combat!
- What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
I enjoy combos that have versatility with the amount of hits you can do with each attack within a string, having different properties for each attack (hyper armor on 2nd attack, builds stun on 3rd attack, knocks the opponent into the air which can be followed up into air combo follow ups, increase crit or damage on the third attack string etc.), and versatility to chain different attacks or gain new combo routes depending on button combinations (AAA, BBB, AAB, BBA, ABA, BAB).
- Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I felt that some of the attack animations on the 2H Sword can keep their overall animation speeds but tweak the anticipation frames by adding a few more frames, remove a few active frames then add a couple of recovery frames. However, this might require the team to change the animations themselves to give players a better perception of weight and inertia to their swings...
Enemies and players should have a flinch animation or limb shake animation that increases in intensity depending on the strength of the attack when being hit to visually give a sense of weight and impact to attacks. I feel like some attacks, mainly from the 2H Great Sword and maybe future weapons to be showcase, should have a few extra impact frames that briefly pause both the enemy and player in the middle of their animations to also give players a better sense of weight and impact. This suggestion might remove a small amount of player agency in movement, but I think this might also give players a split second to be aware of their surroundings and react accordingly, especially in the massive hectic PvP battles. Ideally a concept that I would like to see for impact frames would be something like the first 6 frames be in slow motion then the next 10 frames gradually ramp back up to normal animation speeds to give attacks a visually cinematic flair. These numbers aren't the exact amount that I want to see, and they would also change values depending on the attack and weapon, but I would really appreciate it if you guys can pull this off! To get a good idea of what I'm trying to say, watch the hit stun animations in Street Fighter 6 and compare them to 5.
Maybe a visual nitpick that I have that you guys can easily fix without me telling you is the footwork on some of the attack animations. Gliding/skating feet may always be a necessary evil for a lot of action games, but If you guys can limit that the best that you can then that would be great for visual consistency. Remember to have clear pivot points on the feet when rotating and include small quick hops whenever necessary when a model needs to widen their stance, which you guys did a great job with the Dual Daggers! My nitpick starts at the very beginning of this clip: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxw33XOoP_r0E_6YbQn9owWjepa_m2sL3O
I might be going outside the box of this discussion topic, but on the giant hammer ability I feel like the player model should step into the swing when bringing the hammer down to give it some more oomph. Here's a visual clip to show what I mean: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxnQ0egCO6HCT8mXseXb1RtncAdxY4S2UX
- Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Monster Hunter Sunbreak pretty much does most of everything that I've previously stated when answering the first question. Sekiro is a game that is simple but has enough depth to its combat that can bring anyone into a flow state once you get in tune to the mechanics. However, one the most important components to any action game are good enemy designs that also complement the player's mechanics. I like to see my enemies actually aim with their attacks, parry my own attacks and abilities, dodge and weave my attacks and reposition themselves to prepare a massive counterattack on me. I like to dance with my enemies, a violent, yet elegant dance. Many Tab Target MMOs that I've seen don't really do that and BDO enemies are just fodder to be toyed with, so I hope you guys can shake up the genre.
Thank you for reading and I can't wait to see what the future holds in store!
maybe a bit less of the glow on basic attacks. the swings also did seem to be a little quick.
part of the ue5 was that when you step on the ground your foot doesn't sink in and it looks like you are standing on the ground. can you make it so that when you do hit the target that the blades could bounce a little to show visually that it hit them and not be the 100 mob fights where you just swing through everything in 1 hit? if someone swings and it gets blocked can you make the swing, so it stops the swing that you see?
please do not put in animation canceling.
if you do then it becomes how fast can you cancel the thing and do the next.
why did you make the animation if you are going to then let people cancel it?
the animation is part of the combat and swing balance, unless you are going to put the damage done at the end of the swing so if you cancel it, you don't do the damage of that swing. part of it is doing higher damage should root you in place longer (with some skills that might reduce that some) like an archer trying to do rain of arrows, roots him in spot for 10 seconds to cover a 50-foot area. the mage who casts a meteor spell, gets rooted in place for 10 seconds to hit a 10-foot area for a ton of damage, same thing for a sword swing, you do a ton of damage with a heavy attack to a cone in front of you, you get rooted for a time for that swing.. if you let people cancel out then i do the huge damage and have no negative from doing it.
Edit: To answer the feedback questions: Love the look of the weight of melee attacks. It would be great if there was a heavy "basic attack" that maybe was charged up and took a little more stamina. I guess what I'm trying to say in all of this is to make the impact of attacks carry the same weight not only from an animation standpoint, but from a mechanical standpoint as well. I'd LOVE a stagger, backstab, status effect on hit, or anything similar to be a part of the game. I realize that would be an absurd amount of animations for all the different creatures in the game, but I'm relatively certain we are all on board with the whole "not releasing until its ready" thing, although, I'm only speaking for myself on the "impact" topic.
1. Balance between tab/action system in pvp.
2. A basic Dodge mechanic being capped at 2-3 dashes with a very small time window where you are unstoppable and untargetable -> skill based to allow players with strong reactions to react to fatal attacks.
3. Damage feedback in terms of animation (being hit by a strong attack makes you unable to react for a
sec/half a sec and leads to an animation showing exactly that -> different knock back animations and distances per spell/attack from monsters with picture shaking. also animation canceling from monsters attacks if you hit them with heavy attacks and actual feedback by mobs interacting with different attacks.)
Why do i think this is important? Dodging is an important mechanic that shouldnt be spammable but in terms of skill offers a nice opportunity to escape from massive attacks, that you should better not be hit by. if you dodge too early or too late it doesnt get rewarded but the right timing forces the player to progress in combat and get a feeling for timings. The animation stuff leads to very individual experiences with the mobs and to a combat where you cant just spam but have to figure out the combos/attacks of each monster. For some people it will just be annoying because they have to actually use their brain, but i think most players would appreactiate it to study each skill/attack of each individual monster so they have to adapt every single fight and use their skills to easily defeat the monster. otherwise it wouldnt be impossible but way harder and less rewarding. By making the attacks from the individual monsters as individual as possible, it wouldnt get annoying or boring because every different monster would represent a new challenge to be successfully completed. So many games just copy paste monsters, give them different looks/sounds, but the attacks stay the same so its not a new experience at all, just the same enemie with some different visuals. in this case, my combat preferences would just be annoying, because it wouldnt be very skill based.
Last but not least, make the attacks randomized and reaction based. dont give monsters the same attack frequency / combo frequency repeating itself over time. Attacks being charged randomly force the player to be actually aware during a fight, because he cant just follow a system, but has to react to certain attacks to successfully avoid them.
PS: Already informing you: im not a native speaker so pls excuse some mistakes if made.
First of all: i love the improvements you already made and i am very very looking forward for future updates and love all your hard work so far. Of course there are always some minor things to discuss about, but overall you can be very proud of your achievements.
1. First thing i noticed: during walking there are footprints but during attacking there arent and yet it seems a bit floaty and like there are not enough steps/legmovement inbetween the attacks so it looks like its floating sometimes. The upper body also looks very seperate from the lower body, almost like he has very much mobility in his lumbar spine. but thats just a very small notice, so overall prob improve the movement by its ongoing movement and physiological movement chains. (saying that as a german physiotherapist)
2. the animation thing i noticed in the first question.
Many people gonna laugh about it and i would agree in the early states, but New World has a decent meele combat and damage feedback with clean animations. It was and still is pretty clunky, but it improved a lot in contrast to the early release. I hate the dumb stamina decision and combining dodge with block, which should definitely be seen separately, but overall most players enjoyed the melee combat system if nw over all wasnt that buggy and stuff.
I love action combat systems and hate tab targetting, which is of course just a personal preference. but if we are able to chose between both and are capable of pvp, please make it balanced. i really wana enjoy pvp, but if it ends up in being totally broken for tab target (because of autoaim) and a disadvantage if using action combat, it will dissapoint a lot of players or rather make them really sad.
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.
I think a cool feature could be footprints (every 4. eg.) stay on the ground for a certain amount of time (way longer if the prints are from a corrupted) and show different colours for each pvp type. the colouration should be very decent so it doesnt look like kaka, but decent enough so you are capable of seeing it from a close distance (lets say 6 feet e.g.). so if there was a corrupted arround, you could tell by the red footprints and so avoid the player by knowing he was near some minutes ago. non pvp players could then avoid the corrupted one by walking into another direction but huntsman or bounty hunter on the other hand could follow them by using this feature. so the idea would be footprints from innocents have no colouration, so hard to see and dont stay long. prints from combatant are green and last only a little longer so corrupted/combatans dont have too much time noticing them. corrupted ones stay the longest and are coloured red. It should over all not be too easy to notice footprints and abuse this kind of feature. to avoid abusing, you can e.g. only let every 12. double steps retain on the ground so by moving in different directions weirdly during walking it wont be easy to follow them. -> in bushes and high grass its also more difficult to follow etc. there are many and easy ways to balance this feature but mostly make it possible for innocents or combatans to notice footprints of bloody killers that may camp somewhere so they are avoidable.
I appreciate to give the community the opportunity to share their thoughts.
They can use strong targeting when using tab skills in action combat cameras and have less of a need to swap between them. Though this only relates to action camera using tab skills.
I am excited to try out the combat in alpha 2.
Thoughts:
-Think flow of combat feels fluid and satisfying
-effects are nice
Suggestion:
-have the same free movement for jumping while using skills and basic attacks
-physical indications of being hit
I really like the idea of stagger and moves that matter. Especially in PVP, this prevents spam fest hack slash where all you do is just spam left click over and over. I'm sure some will attempt to argue mass pvp and issues with stagger, but systems can most certainly be implemented to prevent stagger locks.
If Steven has to choose - he's going to choose Tab Target; rather than Action Combat.
I'm fine with either, but choose one and make it amazing. Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for making everyone upset rather than only one group. Look at New World. They initially had an amazing pvp game concept for a specific group of people. And then they tried to cater to everyone and got overwhelmed with the number of issues introduced. They could have just stuck to their core audience and prevented a lot of it.
Tab target can still work fine with meaningful skill rotations/punishments for messing up etc. Point is, that most people recognize something that is done really well, not multiple things that are average.
With New World, PvE was an after-thought... way late in development.
Plans change, it's development. Hence why they want feedback. If you have some logical points to actually articulate, then you should post them. That's what feedback is all about; Sound rational points that explain the reasoning behind someone's thought process. I've just expressed mine. Posting what you think Steven will do isn't a sound argument. It's just you trying to appropriate a position on the design team, which I don't think you're a part of.
And I stated that the problem with New World is that they changed their original plan late in development, whereas the plan for Ashes has always been Hybrid Combat.
That is very simple logic.
Steven said one year ago that if they had to make a choice of one or the otther because they can't get Hybrid Combat to work, it will be Tab Target. And also last month both Steven and Vaknar stated the team is still committed to Hybrid Combat, so...
You know... maybe people should be aware of what the devs have stated what they will do, instead of championing ideas the devs have never said they will do.
Much love ❤️
Comment is to you on all topics of gameplay don't be disappointed if things change. You will read quotes from years ago like a bible as if things can't change in active development. There has been no indication that it isn't going to work, you are just saying random quotes at this point not back up by what is happening in development. Also maybe take a look through the forum and see what people are saying again and see what they want.
"You need to see what they are currently doing, saying and the direction as well as the feedback people give."
lol dude....they are literally asking for feedback on how you think the combat should progress. It's in the name of the thread. Quit being a troll and trying to be the arbiter of truth here as if you're a part of the AoC team. Again, you're not.
The only idea I've championed is what I would like to see because guess what? It's....feeeeeedback. Take your "ho ho ho never gonna get it" holier than thou comment and get over yourself mate. All you did was pay some extra money for a game, just like the rest of us.
I just shared the info of what the devs have already said --recently-- and you wanted to argue.
So... who's trollin'??
Guy is giving his feedback, it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not your whole purpose for posting was to try to shut down his feedback. Why don't you go to that for a ton of other post that are pro action and try to argue with everyone on the forum lmao.
lolol riiiiight. If that was your true intention you would have said so in a much more neutral tone. You could have simply said, "Steven has mentioned in previous scenarios that he would most likely go with tab target over action combat if the hybrid doesn't work"
and then referenced the material/sources in your statement to back it up.
See how much of a difference in tone that is rather than your childish prefaced "never gana get it" comment? Don't try to play coy now.
But even with that said, this thread is for the devs to hear input from players about what they want to see in combat. Not for you to try and disparage someone else's feedback because you don't like it. All I did was an attempt to post my own interest in combat. Your input was entirely unnecessary. This is for the devs, not you.
No, I'm not going to argue with you about it. But I do have an issue with someone who tries to assert themselves on a requested feedback thread and then act as if they are the final say on a matter they disagree with when they are not in a position to do so. I'm not just going to roll over, I'm going to address it. And now I'm going to simply ignore your wasteful attempts to salvage this conversation. Please go back to Reddit and let others post their feedback and what they would like to see in-game in peace as this is not your own personal discussion/thread. Go start one if that's what you want. What a waste of words, sheesh.
Yeah, guy gave some feedback. I shared some info... and he wants to fight.
@Drungle
I don't know what you mean by "assert myself". I didn't say anything about what I don't like.
I shared info about what the devs have said. And then defended that info when you chose to argue.
I'm not going to be overly concerned about perceived tone on the internet. I'm happy to match your tone.
But, we should be all good now, right?
Animation readability is great, the basic attack animations are obviously distinct from actual cooldown abilities that were shown alongside them, and not super over the top. The movement/dash ability looked fantastic and fun, and the animations looked fluid and with intuitive amounts of movement restriction. Really great!
My primary concern is not really with the attacks themselves, but with the topic and philosophy of mobility that was briefly touched on by Steven, that slow effects are not really a focus of the pvp, and that combatants should be able to move around the battlefield together. If paired with a similar mindset when it comes to mobility/dash abilities, kiting and and mobility really lose a lot of value if it becomes very easy for any spec to stay on top of any other spec. Mashing whichever wasd key in whatever direction the other guy happens to be going and matching their dash 1 for 1 with no thought to positioning so you can continue spamming 1 while waiting on CDs is not really fun and active combat, when relative to the other guy, you have not actually moved at all (See: BDO iframe dash/dodging hell).
Definitely looks like a good system for basic attacks, but even when the attacks are good on their own, it'd be very easy to place too little or too much emphasis on them depending on the general rotation and flow of other skills.
Excited to see more : )
Something I noticed right away was the active blocking being added to the game. This alone has peaked my interest. Any modern MMO should have active blocking. Being able to actively mitigate feels better to me than hoping my character will block randomly. Having the option to have more agency over a player character feels better.
It looks like the basic attack animation is potentially hold left click to go through the cycle. I think that is fine. I am getting tired of the tab target systems MMO's have. Hands on action combat that has aiming is something that no other MMO's are doing right now and honestly I really think the genre needs to start heading in that direction. This first look gives me confidence that Ashes of Creation is heading in that direction.
I am not sure what the plan is with interaction with certain creatures/enemies in the game but something that would be cool to see is different weapons having different affects on certain creatures. If it is not the weapons then maybe the effects on a weapon could interact with enemies. One of the coolest things you can do in a Dark souls esque game is put fire grease on your weapon and when you fight an enemy that is weak/scared of fire the enemy reacts to it.
Thanks for all of your work.
I am speaking out my ass here but Steven usually uses god mode when doing the demonstration videos. I would hazard a guess that he was probably just spamming it for show off purposes rather than it being a demonstration of the skill and cds etc. I feel as though you will not have to worry about that
One issue in this animation I see is on the third swing around the body it very quickly goes into the start of the next animation. It really needs a more natural transition where the blade ends for the final animation and when the first animation begins.
Sound is much more impressive in this video mind you which is a plus.