I really like the direction this is heading. I think you all will nail the execution of it when it is time for release.
The animation looks good and has some weight behind it. It doesn't seem too floaty which is a good thing.
A small concern of mine is the slashing visual effects. I found the orange slash following the swings to be distracting. Almost like I was looking at those instead of the target. Again this nitpick is small but if you imagine 10+ people all swinging away and all these swinging visual effects are going off, I think it could be really distracting.
But other than that really happy with the progress! Keep it up!
Since someone already made a good template, I will copy it.. Thanks Vissox !
WE LIKE (my gf and I)
- the hybrid combat : we like the feeling of the action combat, can't wait to see the tab targeting combat !
- the knock-back : reeeeally good, we're feeling it !
- the effects : finally a MMO who gives attention to the melee classes with good effects
- the numbers : good improvement from the alpha 1, not too "in your face" and the movement effect is well thought !
- the player agency
- body split VS root motion : really good work on this, it feels very natural to us !
- the daggers' effect : feels like he's splitting the wind
- the player animations : nothing to add, awesome work !
- the ability/spell : the color is not too flashy, it feels "holy" haha, we like it !
WE DON'T LIKE
- the floatyness of the weapons : we don't feel the power of the strike with the sword, the impact is too weak. The swing time is also too fast for both of them
- the combat stance : we like the idea, but we're not fond of the execution...
- the effects : hear us out... we like again the idea, but the execution could be better, like we're not big fans of flashy effects. If you could reduce the brightness, we would be pleased !
OVERALL
It's a great update, and we look forward to see what else you have to offer, but we are a litle skeptical about the floatyness of the weapons... I guess we'll have to try it ourselves during alpha 2 and see if the points we mentioned are really concerning or not !
Reading that post from page 15 just wanted to throw my two cents in. I have to agree animations are pretty huge in really building the energy for a moment and with combat. I enjoyed parts of Anthem and sad the game kind of failed but the animations in that game were great, when i did the move and slammed down on the ground i felt that energy. It made me more excited to play it, also prob why i enjoy a lot of action anime with really good fight scenes.
I really liked the hammer bonk skill, however, it does not really fit with daggers and one could maybe say the same about the 2H sword. I would love to see that hammer take shape of a weapon you are currently equipped with. Maybe you can also do different effects for this skill for different weapons, for example:
If you are equipped with daggers, the skill takes the shape of daggers and does damage in smaller radius, but it inflicts bleeding, poison or any other kind of debuff.
In the case of 2H Sword the skill takes the shape of 2H sword and does damage in straight line.
If you have Hammer on, the skill takes the shape of hammer and does damage in the bigger radius compared to others. (as it was shown in the video)
And so on with other types of weapons that fall into the category Melee or perhaps Fighter... There's so much creative things you can do with that skill.
I agree whole heartedly with @TheDarkSorcerer most particularly with his improvement ideas number 1 and 4. But I wanted to add for the blocking animation and seeing our character take damage, I would prefer either nothing or a full on animation over just a simple flinch animation. A lot of MMOs have a predetermined flinch animation that plays when you take dmg (aka WoW, or SWTOR to name some) it gets stale real quick I don't want my character putting his hand up every time he gets hit.
Fireball hits character = He puts his hand up
Axe hits character = He puts his hand up
Gets run over by horse = He puts his hand up
Maybe it's just me but that irritates me, so multiple flinch animations is also fine, just please not a single predetermined one. To talk about number 4 of their points, I do agree yellow may be flashy but I think their idea of grey may be to dark and bland. So what if there was a feature to choose the color and brightness? It would make sense and honestly add a ton of fun and agency to player customization. Like are you a Holy Paladin and want every blow to be like the light of God himself is smiting your enemies? Then bright yellow! Are you a maleficent Warlock and want fear instilled on your enemies then dark purple! Are you a rogue who lurks in the shadows and waits for the perfect time to strike, then how about a dark grey!
All in all I am super hyped and love the progress made so far! Keep it up you magnificent people!
I agree whole heartedly with @TheDarkSorcerer most particularly with his improvement ideas number 1 and 4. But I wanted to add for the blocking animation and seeing our character take damage, I would prefer either nothing or a full on animation over just a simple flinch animation. A lot of MMOs have a predetermined flinch animation that plays when you take dmg (aka WoW, or SWTOR to name some) it gets stale real quick I don't want my character putting his hand up every time he gets hit.
Fireball hits character = He puts his hand up
Axe hits character = He puts his hand up
Gets run over by horse = He puts his hand up
Maybe it's just me but that irritates me, so multiple flinch animations is also fine, just please not a single predetermined one. To talk about number 4 of their points, I do agree yellow may be flashy but I think their idea of grey may be to dark and bland. So what if there was a feature to choose the color and brightness? It would make sense and honestly add a ton of fun and agency to player customization. Like are you a Holy Paladin and want every blow to be like the light of God himself is smiting your enemies? Then bright yellow! Are you a maleficent Warlock and want fear instilled on your enemies then dark purple! Are you a rogue who lurks in the shadows and waits for the perfect time to strike, then how about a dark grey!
All in all I am super hyped and love the progress made so far! Keep it up you magnificent people!
I love your last idea here. Especially if spells of a specific class has a color scheme. It could easily clash if some warlock using daggers has a set of green looking FX spells/skills along with yellow weapon attacks.
Amazing progress and updates! I liked most of what was shown.
My suggestions/feedback:
1. Some of the animations are too fast, examples are the swing at 9:16 and the 10:36 backwards swing in the video. I think you can make it look even more impactful if you build up the swing and slow it down in general. This way you can actually see the direction the sword moves.
2. Add stagger on impactful attacks, for example on the last dagger basic attack combo.
3. When you block it seems like nothing happens, would be nice to see some sort of movement.
4. The visual effects on the sword could be toned down a little.
At first i really disliked the 2 handed swords visual effects. Those visuals alone would be enough reason for me to not use that weapon. I did however really like the visual effects of the daggers.
It makes it kinda hard to critique the swords effects, because apart from calling it personal preference i don't really see what i dislike about sword.
One of the things that i became really excited about after seeing these visuals was group content, i think it would feel and look amazing to have a full party, raid or castle siege with these flashy effects. It also helps with seeing and understanding what's happening.
I also felt like the characters pelvis and below where a little to disconnected from the upper body. The legs seem to only ragdol around in response to the characters position and movement, without taking intensity or weight of the upper body into consideration.
Hello, I am a competitive PvPer in MMOs and have a great deal of experience playing at high levels in a variety of different games. My feedback is focused around skill-based combat and fluidity.
___ Important Aspects to Add for High-Level, Skill-Based, and Fluid Combat:
Consistent animation timings are invaluable for achieving fluid combat. Guild Wars 2 uses a similar 3-chain basic attack system that works quite well for applying sustain pressure throughout fights. The animations for all skills with cast times are in quarter second intervals (animations are 0.25s, 0.5s, 0.75s, 1s, etc.) which helps a lot for precise timing in PvP. For a 3 part basic attack chain, the first two parts should maintain the same animation timing (0.25s or 0.5s feels good depending on the weapon type) with the 3rd part of the chain 0.25s longer for a more impactful feel. For example, a 2h sword basic chain could be 0.5s, 0.5s, 0.75s while the daggers could be 0.25s, 0.25s, 0.5s.
Consistent animation timing is also incredibly important for dodges as well. There was a shoulder charge/dash shown during the June livestream that looked spammable with an extremely fast animation. The rapid speed increase was also jarring for something that looks like it should be used often. I would recommend giving every player 2 dodge rolls (~7.5s-10s to regenerate 1 dodge) that allow them to i-frame any attacks that would hit them during a 0.75s animation. Guild Wars 2 has done exactly this and the combat system and PvP are the best out of any MMO I’ve played as a result. Dodges should move the player the same distance they would be able to run in the same amount of time the evade frame lasts. Dodges that are too fast/move too far can be used to create distance and will feel unbalanced.
A keybind for canceling an attack and/or stowing your weapon to do so can add a significant amount of depth to combat. If there are counterattacks in the game, the ability to cancel casted attacks to avoid triggering them is necessary. This also adds skill to PvP in the form of baiting defensive skills from an enemy before committing to damage.
Jumping while attacking can add a lot of skill through movement when it comes to maneuvering around/up/down obstacles in fights. A well-executed and incorporated Z axis aspect in fights is not common in MMORPGs (Guild Wars 2 sPvP has done this well with map design) and can set Ashes of Creation apart from many other titles that revolve solely around fighting on flat ground.
Hybrid Action + Tab Targeting is GREAT! Action combat is ideal for melee attacks (ie. cone-shaped hitboxes) or for anyone that wants to manually aim projectile attacks. Tab target is ideal for ranged attacks and targeted mobility skills. Ground target is ideal for Area of Effect abilities or ground targeted mobility.
Multiple weapon skills (~5) with cooldowns around 20 seconds or less feels great. Any skill with a cooldown longer than 20 seconds should generally be reserved for utility skills/stunbreaks/trinkets/ultimate skills. Ultimates feel good when they have cooldowns around 60 seconds. Cooldowns that are longer than a minute should be reserved for powerful transformation abilities.
Multiple ways to increase/decrease movement speed for self/enemies along with low cooldown mobility skills (~8-15s depending on distance traveled) will help melee vs. ranged combat feel more balanced.
If there are crowd control abilities in the game (ie. stun, knockdown, knockback), every player having access to multiple stunbreaks/trinkets and/or ways to immune CCs helps prevent crowd control from feeling oppressive or overpowered.
Do not restrict players from casting certain abilities if they do not have a target selected.
Personal healing skills with cast times around 0.5s to 1.0s can make the game more friendly to solo PvPers as well as make interrupting healing skills important for playing at a high level.
An about-face keybind to turn the player character 180 degrees adds a lot of depth to movement and skill-based kiting. If it is possible to move by holding left and right click together (left click to hold camera position still, right click to turn character along with camera), about-face can be used to maintain full movement speed in any direction by holding down left click and alternating presses of the about-face keybind and right click.
Player collision feels bad for fluidity and players should be able to walk through other players' character models. However, projectiles that are non-piercing should not be able to go through character models so people can bodyblock for each other when necessary.
When all of these are executed well, combat at a high level will feel varied, skill-based, and fun for players that wish to push their limits. These suggestions add consistency and depth to the game which makes it easier for new players to pick up the game and play while rewarding proper timing and skill-usage for veteran players down the road. There will be a balance of ranged and melee combat, using line of sight/terrain/height/the environment in fights, weapon swapping, baiting skills, interrupting important skills, dodging attacks, reserving stunbreaks for CCs, and cooldown tracking.
___ Animation Feedback, Weight, and Impact:
When the player character gets knocked back by the golems, a ground decal (similar to when a weapon strikes the ground) along with a trail of dust can really sell the loss of control.
Similarly, different subtle particle effects depending on what type of terrain the player is moving on would be nice (ie. kicking up snow/dirt/sand while running)
___ Issue:
The shadow of the player character during the June livestream looked disconnected from the feet at certain angles.
I've been a backer since the kickstarter. I've also been following the development from early on. As a more casual MMO player I feel like the team has chosen the right path for the combat. Compare this to the earlier combat and consider me amazed! Please continue as you have
Additionally I just want to mention that the combat is an element that makes the game more enjoyable. When you are doing a quest and you move between points running in to an occasional mob you have the option to attack it or leave it. I choose the former in games where I truly enjoy the combat.
Again, the team is doing an amazing job! Keep this up guys
Hi !
I really liked the showcase of the new basic attacks; here is a few thoughts:
- I think the heavy weapon feels still a bit too "light"; I think the risk should be higher when you carry a heavy weapon, and have maybe a wind-up time or a after-hit time longer
- I'm not sure if carrying a heavier weapon changes your movement speed, but maybe it should ?
- I think the effects are a bit too much, here there is only a few enemies, you're alone hitting them, and only with basic attacks; and it already feels like a lot. Visual clarity is important, and very hard to get right, especially the more you add to the game (spells, buffs, number of players/ennemies...)
I love the customisation though, and think it's great to give players agency !
Pros:
-Combat seemed very smooth and fluid, the animations were crisp and didn't feel cluttered.
-The weight ranging from the daggers to heavy two handed sword seems good.
-I like the swing "penalty" that is imposed on the heavy weapons. The daggers can keep swinging and moving is a good addition.
-Little details like the blade trails on the ground.
-The amount of customization given.
Cons:
-The yellow coloring on the effects after a swing with the sword.
-No stagger animation for player on hit.
-No stagger animation for mobs on hit.
Hopes:
-I hope spears are added, which they most likely are but I want SPEARS like, a poke poke spear (like Sage awakening in BDO). Not a long glaive that slashes or a lance that is a two handed polearm. I want a spear in each hand.
-I hope that each weapon has it's own range, in my mind with a poke oriented weapon like a spear, I should be hitting someone who wields daggers before they are in range to swing at me.
The basic weapon attacks shown were really well done. There is only a few things that could improve it just slightly, but honestly the way they work currently would be good enough for launch of the game in my eyes. I loved the little details like the animation chain changing based on movement.
Greatsword single target and AOE damage seemed much higher than dagger damage. I think it would make more sense to have Dagger Single Target DPS be higher, but AOE damage lower than the Greatsword.
A lot of people have mentioned some animation feedback on the mobs might give more "Impact". I think a small amount might help as long as it is not overdone. The impact seemed about right to me.
I think overall the speed and the animations could be tuned down just a bit. The Greatsword chain finished in two seconds and the dagger chain finished in 1 second. I know these attack to some extent are filler, and until we see the rest of combat together with this it is too early to say if this combat is too fast or too slow. I know with a 30 second to 1 minute time to kill combat as a whole is probably going to be slower paced, which I like.
The new reticle was just a tiny dot on the screen. Would be nice to have some different options for that that make it easier to see.
Would be nice to have seen the UI so we can see how combat looks with the UI. We only briefly saw TAB, and it was hard to notice that TAB was on. It seems to work exactly the same as action for the melee attacks, just as it did in Alpha 1.
Universal blocking and dodging-Would be nice to get some clarification on how that will be balanced with passive block, dodge, evade, and parry stats.
The block animation is really high up. Especially the daggers. It's just an aesthetic but it felt a bit too high to me.
The next few things are not related to the melee combat, but the two skills showcased. The hammer slam had no telegraph at all to show where it would land. For an experienced player that is fine, for a new player that is not. Options to telegraphs or some sort of ground target circles for those abilities would be nice.
The animations for the whirlwind ability being the same for dagger and greatsword does feel a bit off. Where it will really feel off is if a class like the Ranger can use spells like the Hail of Arrows without a Bow equipped. Would be nice to get some clarification on how that is going to work.
This is a bit unrelated to the showcase, but I am not in favor of friendly player collision being used as an AOE limiter. This creates all sorts of problems outside of combat when trying to move through crowded areas. Just use AOE caps that every other MMO uses. "Square Root Secondary Target Scaling" to me is the best solution to this.
I am very concerned about the hybrid system as a whole and how that is going to work in terms of balance. Having some players with 75% TAB and others with 75% action seems to make a genre that is already very hard to balance, near impossible to balance. I am also concerned about having to use a hotkey to switch between a crosshair and TAB to be able to use the action skills. I know you can just point your cursor in a direction in TAB to cast action skills, but I personally would prefer just getting rid of the hotkey to switch modes and just have all action abilities cast from TAB using ground targeting or maybe a reticle for some of them that turns on when you press down the skill, and then you fire the skill by releasing the button and the reticle goes away again. This would just make it more seamless and less clunky.
Not having enemy health bars is something I am against.
Again, these are all small things, and combat is looking great already. Only going to get better. Excited for the next few updates!
Overall i think it looks quite ok.
A bit too much visual effects, not really necessary for every swing.
Really nice with the ground decals, but limited to the heavy hitters ?
Should limit the movement on certain attacks, like the 360 one, bit odd when he floated away before it completed.
Interesting with the damage text, would be good if you could seperate them further, starting a bit to the side of the character.
Would also be really interesting to see how shields will work.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Its so amazing to see the combat improve so much over the years, kudos to the team!
A few addon suggestions I have would be:
- Why have just one speed/weight feel for a weapon? Having different ranks/rarities or some named items have a heavier feel than others would be a great way to diversify the weapons of the same kind.. and would make special items even more special.
- My second suggestion is a very execution based one rather than the actual idea's concept. Having a movement attached to the weapon itself. Image swinging your waraxe or hammer down and jumping on top for the second swing which then comes from underneath you. This could be a skill or a part of a combo. But having movement rather than just a charge attached to a weapon in a cool way would make the characters and combat seem a lot more skill based and fun.
I will not enter into a lengthy discussion and critique of what I've seen, because I'm more of a casual player in MMORPG´s and never focus on the combar aspects of a game, although I always participate in end-game activities - I leave that to the more expert players. However, I will say that what I saw last week was, for me, the most disappointing dev update of 2022. I haven't missed a dev update or official video since 2017, so I called myself a fan of the game. I found the combat clunky, not fluid at all, and so far removed from the action combat that I like nowadays. I didn't "feel" any fun watching it. To the point that my enthusiasm for the game has almost disappeared.
I genuinely really like the direction you guys are going in. Two things that really stood out to me were the directional attacks and the transition between auto attacks and skills.
Directional attack:
I think the directional attacks allow you to kite really well in both pve and pvp while still doing damage and the split body animations to go with them are looking very polished for alpha.
Auto attacks:
There were a couple of times where instead of doing the triple auto attack combo steven would just do the double combo and go right into the spin or the hammer. I think its really important to get the transition between those to be smooth because of how ashes combat is auto attack focused (like the example steven gave with the rogue autos and bleeding).
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janusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. When blocking, I would like to see that your character is actually taking a hit in character's body movement. Right now it’s just sound.
In addition to the above idea, which I think is very good: You could also make the screen overall flash red (slight tint only). If getting hit a lot, that would create more of a feeling of being pressured than just some numbers floating on the screen.
1. Animations are still too fast in some cases, losing the impact of the Blows. For example, the daggers are super, unrealistically fast. They feel like foam weapons.
2. The weapons blurs being gold just doesnt fit. If youre planning to add various motion blur colours, keep them to the colour majority ie, if a weapon is mostly silver, keep the blur silver, not gold.
LOVES:
1. The fast action paced combat looks great and a real good time. Also very happy that you’re not rooted while performing attacks.
2. Love the implementation of adjusting dmg numbers. I like being able to see damage output and damage taken, but don’t want them to visually take over the screen.
IMPROVEMENT IDEAS:
1. When blocking, I would like to see that your character is actually taking a hit in character's body movement. Right now it’s just sound.
2. Are we missing footsteps? That would help character feel more grounded.
3. The spin with daggers felt out of place, was this supposed to be used with a hammer or great sword? That would feel more appropriate due to swing looked like he was swinging something heavy and not light daggers. Same with that big hammer animation skill. Felt odd to use that for daggers, but understand this was just a little tease on skills and not final.
4. Not a fan of the yellow sword light/particles from attacks. Just keep it more subtle in grey like the daggers and tone it down about 40% for all weapons.
5. Do you currently have a "curve" on attack movements? I wish attack movement's felt more linear if that makes sense. In video they felt like a mix of slowmo-fast that looked very eastern mmo. Movement almost slows down for a 0.1 second before the hit.
6. Have the team explored a depth of field that is optional under Graphics Settings? Grand Theft Auto does a good job of making what is in front of you in focus while the things in the corner of eye slightly blurred. Would be a nice addition to settings in general.
As someone who plays sorcerer in every game, I would've liked to see magic weapon combat. But understand spells are a little bit more sensitive to show. But overall, i'd say the team is making amazing progress and I would jump into Alpha 2 tomorrow if you announced it Way too excited for this game!
Aman
The light/particels should be a side effect of magic ,adjuments or a special sword effect, simple attack should be simple in my mind.
I feel like blocking, parrying and counterattacking should be a big focuspoint. I know that this is still a work in progress and therefor I have no critisizm but rather remarks that hope to inspire the team.
Blocking, parrying and counterattacking on the perfect time can easily be a satisfying feeling. Aspecially when the animation is top notch. Parrying can be a slide movement effect that makes the enemy stumble past you while a counterattack might cause a definate crit allong with some scraping particle effect. I dont know much of camera blur and vibration but also this might add impact just as like was in the footage that you guys showed.
I already know that this game will be epic. Though i do implore for no big focus on the cashshop. Please be true to your fans. We love you so dont break our hearts.
One of the biggest things for me when playing a game is movement. It has to feel interesting and fun to just move around and explore the world. After seeing the Combat video and seeing the character being able to move around, and not being grounded, really put me at ease. That's all I wanted to add to the conversation. Make movement interesting. So far, from what I've seen, it already looks like it's headed in that direction.
Overall, I think it looks really good. I like that the daggers have that quick animation with attacks. It does seem like the 2-handed sword is moving a bit quick, but that could just be me. I love that design choice to show the ground being cracked after a heavy weapon attack. If I was playing this build, I would feel cool and powerful.
Customizing battle text is a great choice. Sometimes I like to see damage meters, sometimes I don't. I also like that it is directional (getting hit, it moved from right to left in red, and your attacks moving left to right in a different color).
- Side note: This looks beautiful, I love how the sword, gear, and environment looks. Loving how the rock elementals blend in with the surroundings until you get close enough and engage!
This looks amazing but I do think some of the weapons could hit a little harder. Look to Monster Hunter: World for the most satisfying weapon animations in any game I think I've ever played. Something about the impactful sounds, the mobs reacting to hits, and the slightest pause on the frames when you hit the mob to make it feel like you're really cutting through rough skin.
this is a fucking video game bro, why do I feel like if I ask you: "name 1 MMORPG with good combat animations" you will say there's none, but I like kingdom come deliverance!
those animations are an 8/10, maybe 9, compared to any other MMORPG in the market, and if you feel like those animations are dogshit, this isn't a game for you, maybe you looking for something else, try searching for survival / medieval simulator games.
this is a fucking video game bro, why do I feel like if I ask you: "name 1 MMORPG with good combat animations" you will say there's none, but I like kingdom come deliverance!
those animations are an 8/10, maybe 9, compared to any other MMORPG in the market, and if you feel like those animations are dogshit, this isn't a game for you, maybe you looking for something else, try searching for survival / medieval simulator games.
There is nothing wrong giving critical feedback even more so when most post are looks great or nitpicking with some feedback here and there.
Animations are pretty important, granted its a mmo but it is hybrid so it can really help to sell the idea of attacks and adding more flare to it. This isn't a normal post its clear the person (if I were to make a strong guess) works in the industry. He was a bit harsh in the comments maybe could have been a bit nicer or fair that it is in alpha, but could also be a point to make your post stand out more and get attention.
Also you can sell animations to people and they will buy it on the store
Comments
The animation looks good and has some weight behind it. It doesn't seem too floaty which is a good thing.
A small concern of mine is the slashing visual effects. I found the orange slash following the swings to be distracting. Almost like I was looking at those instead of the target. Again this nitpick is small but if you imagine 10+ people all swinging away and all these swinging visual effects are going off, I think it could be really distracting.
But other than that really happy with the progress! Keep it up!
www.codyturcotte.com
WE LIKE (my gf and I)
- the hybrid combat : we like the feeling of the action combat, can't wait to see the tab targeting combat !
- the knock-back : reeeeally good, we're feeling it !
- the effects : finally a MMO who gives attention to the melee classes with good effects
- the numbers : good improvement from the alpha 1, not too "in your face" and the movement effect is well thought !
- the player agency
- body split VS root motion : really good work on this, it feels very natural to us !
- the daggers' effect : feels like he's splitting the wind
- the player animations : nothing to add, awesome work !
- the ability/spell : the color is not too flashy, it feels "holy" haha, we like it !
WE DON'T LIKE
- the floatyness of the weapons : we don't feel the power of the strike with the sword, the impact is too weak. The swing time is also too fast for both of them
- the combat stance : we like the idea, but we're not fond of the execution...
- the effects : hear us out... we like again the idea, but the execution could be better, like we're not big fans of flashy effects. If you could reduce the brightness, we would be pleased !
OVERALL
It's a great update, and we look forward to see what else you have to offer, but we are a litle skeptical about the floatyness of the weapons... I guess we'll have to try it ourselves during alpha 2 and see if the points we mentioned are really concerning or not !
If you are equipped with daggers, the skill takes the shape of daggers and does damage in smaller radius, but it inflicts bleeding, poison or any other kind of debuff.
In the case of 2H Sword the skill takes the shape of 2H sword and does damage in straight line.
If you have Hammer on, the skill takes the shape of hammer and does damage in the bigger radius compared to others. (as it was shown in the video)
And so on with other types of weapons that fall into the category Melee or perhaps Fighter... There's so much creative things you can do with that skill.
Fireball hits character = He puts his hand up
Axe hits character = He puts his hand up
Gets run over by horse = He puts his hand up
Maybe it's just me but that irritates me, so multiple flinch animations is also fine, just please not a single predetermined one. To talk about number 4 of their points, I do agree yellow may be flashy but I think their idea of grey may be to dark and bland. So what if there was a feature to choose the color and brightness? It would make sense and honestly add a ton of fun and agency to player customization. Like are you a Holy Paladin and want every blow to be like the light of God himself is smiting your enemies? Then bright yellow! Are you a maleficent Warlock and want fear instilled on your enemies then dark purple! Are you a rogue who lurks in the shadows and waits for the perfect time to strike, then how about a dark grey!
All in all I am super hyped and love the progress made so far! Keep it up you magnificent people!
I love your last idea here. Especially if spells of a specific class has a color scheme. It could easily clash if some warlock using daggers has a set of green looking FX spells/skills along with yellow weapon attacks.
My suggestions/feedback:
1. Some of the animations are too fast, examples are the swing at 9:16 and the 10:36 backwards swing in the video. I think you can make it look even more impactful if you build up the swing and slow it down in general. This way you can actually see the direction the sword moves.
2. Add stagger on impactful attacks, for example on the last dagger basic attack combo.
3. When you block it seems like nothing happens, would be nice to see some sort of movement.
4. The visual effects on the sword could be toned down a little.
It makes it kinda hard to critique the swords effects, because apart from calling it personal preference i don't really see what i dislike about sword.
One of the things that i became really excited about after seeing these visuals was group content, i think it would feel and look amazing to have a full party, raid or castle siege with these flashy effects. It also helps with seeing and understanding what's happening.
I also felt like the characters pelvis and below where a little to disconnected from the upper body. The legs seem to only ragdol around in response to the characters position and movement, without taking intensity or weight of the upper body into consideration.
___
Important Aspects to Add for High-Level, Skill-Based, and Fluid Combat:
- Consistent animation timings are invaluable for achieving fluid combat. Guild Wars 2 uses a similar 3-chain basic attack system that works quite well for applying sustain pressure throughout fights. The animations for all skills with cast times are in quarter second intervals (animations are 0.25s, 0.5s, 0.75s, 1s, etc.) which helps a lot for precise timing in PvP. For a 3 part basic attack chain, the first two parts should maintain the same animation timing (0.25s or 0.5s feels good depending on the weapon type) with the 3rd part of the chain 0.25s longer for a more impactful feel. For example, a 2h sword basic chain could be 0.5s, 0.5s, 0.75s while the daggers could be 0.25s, 0.25s, 0.5s.
- Consistent animation timing is also incredibly important for dodges as well. There was a shoulder charge/dash shown during the June livestream that looked spammable with an extremely fast animation. The rapid speed increase was also jarring for something that looks like it should be used often. I would recommend giving every player 2 dodge rolls (~7.5s-10s to regenerate 1 dodge) that allow them to i-frame any attacks that would hit them during a 0.75s animation. Guild Wars 2 has done exactly this and the combat system and PvP are the best out of any MMO I’ve played as a result. Dodges should move the player the same distance they would be able to run in the same amount of time the evade frame lasts. Dodges that are too fast/move too far can be used to create distance and will feel unbalanced.
- A keybind for canceling an attack and/or stowing your weapon to do so can add a significant amount of depth to combat. If there are counterattacks in the game, the ability to cancel casted attacks to avoid triggering them is necessary. This also adds skill to PvP in the form of baiting defensive skills from an enemy before committing to damage.
- Jumping while attacking can add a lot of skill through movement when it comes to maneuvering around/up/down obstacles in fights. A well-executed and incorporated Z axis aspect in fights is not common in MMORPGs (Guild Wars 2 sPvP has done this well with map design) and can set Ashes of Creation apart from many other titles that revolve solely around fighting on flat ground.
- Hybrid Action + Tab Targeting is GREAT! Action combat is ideal for melee attacks (ie. cone-shaped hitboxes) or for anyone that wants to manually aim projectile attacks. Tab target is ideal for ranged attacks and targeted mobility skills. Ground target is ideal for Area of Effect abilities or ground targeted mobility.
- Multiple weapon skills (~5) with cooldowns around 20 seconds or less feels great. Any skill with a cooldown longer than 20 seconds should generally be reserved for utility skills/stunbreaks/trinkets/ultimate skills. Ultimates feel good when they have cooldowns around 60 seconds. Cooldowns that are longer than a minute should be reserved for powerful transformation abilities.
- Multiple ways to increase/decrease movement speed for self/enemies along with low cooldown mobility skills (~8-15s depending on distance traveled) will help melee vs. ranged combat feel more balanced.
- If there are crowd control abilities in the game (ie. stun, knockdown, knockback), every player having access to multiple stunbreaks/trinkets and/or ways to immune CCs helps prevent crowd control from feeling oppressive or overpowered.
- Do not restrict players from casting certain abilities if they do not have a target selected.
- Personal healing skills with cast times around 0.5s to 1.0s can make the game more friendly to solo PvPers as well as make interrupting healing skills important for playing at a high level.
- An about-face keybind to turn the player character 180 degrees adds a lot of depth to movement and skill-based kiting. If it is possible to move by holding left and right click together (left click to hold camera position still, right click to turn character along with camera), about-face can be used to maintain full movement speed in any direction by holding down left click and alternating presses of the about-face keybind and right click.
- Player collision feels bad for fluidity and players should be able to walk through other players' character models. However, projectiles that are non-piercing should not be able to go through character models so people can bodyblock for each other when necessary.
When all of these are executed well, combat at a high level will feel varied, skill-based, and fun for players that wish to push their limits. These suggestions add consistency and depth to the game which makes it easier for new players to pick up the game and play while rewarding proper timing and skill-usage for veteran players down the road. There will be a balance of ranged and melee combat, using line of sight/terrain/height/the environment in fights, weapon swapping, baiting skills, interrupting important skills, dodging attacks, reserving stunbreaks for CCs, and cooldown tracking.___
Animation Feedback, Weight, and Impact:
- When the player character gets knocked back by the golems, a ground decal (similar to when a weapon strikes the ground) along with a trail of dust can really sell the loss of control.
- Similarly, different subtle particle effects depending on what type of terrain the player is moving on would be nice (ie. kicking up snow/dirt/sand while running)
___Issue:
Additionally I just want to mention that the combat is an element that makes the game more enjoyable. When you are doing a quest and you move between points running in to an occasional mob you have the option to attack it or leave it. I choose the former in games where I truly enjoy the combat.
Again, the team is doing an amazing job! Keep this up guys
I really liked the showcase of the new basic attacks; here is a few thoughts:
- I think the heavy weapon feels still a bit too "light"; I think the risk should be higher when you carry a heavy weapon, and have maybe a wind-up time or a after-hit time longer
- I'm not sure if carrying a heavier weapon changes your movement speed, but maybe it should ?
- I think the effects are a bit too much, here there is only a few enemies, you're alone hitting them, and only with basic attacks; and it already feels like a lot. Visual clarity is important, and very hard to get right, especially the more you add to the game (spells, buffs, number of players/ennemies...)
I love the customisation though, and think it's great to give players agency !
Keep up the good work !
I have been hospitalised for a while now and will be hospitalised for a while longer. I still plan to play alpha 2. Sorry for the interruption.
All the best,
Tom/Neurath.
-Combat seemed very smooth and fluid, the animations were crisp and didn't feel cluttered.
-The weight ranging from the daggers to heavy two handed sword seems good.
-I like the swing "penalty" that is imposed on the heavy weapons. The daggers can keep swinging and moving is a good addition.
-Little details like the blade trails on the ground.
-The amount of customization given.
Cons:
-The yellow coloring on the effects after a swing with the sword.
-No stagger animation for player on hit.
-No stagger animation for mobs on hit.
Hopes:
-I hope spears are added, which they most likely are but I want SPEARS like, a poke poke spear (like Sage awakening in BDO). Not a long glaive that slashes or a lance that is a two handed polearm. I want a spear in each hand.
-I hope that each weapon has it's own range, in my mind with a poke oriented weapon like a spear, I should be hitting someone who wields daggers before they are in range to swing at me.
- Greatsword single target and AOE damage seemed much higher than dagger damage. I think it would make more sense to have Dagger Single Target DPS be higher, but AOE damage lower than the Greatsword.
- A lot of people have mentioned some animation feedback on the mobs might give more "Impact". I think a small amount might help as long as it is not overdone. The impact seemed about right to me.
- I think overall the speed and the animations could be tuned down just a bit. The Greatsword chain finished in two seconds and the dagger chain finished in 1 second. I know these attack to some extent are filler, and until we see the rest of combat together with this it is too early to say if this combat is too fast or too slow. I know with a 30 second to 1 minute time to kill combat as a whole is probably going to be slower paced, which I like.
- The new reticle was just a tiny dot on the screen. Would be nice to have some different options for that that make it easier to see.
- Would be nice to have seen the UI so we can see how combat looks with the UI. We only briefly saw TAB, and it was hard to notice that TAB was on. It seems to work exactly the same as action for the melee attacks, just as it did in Alpha 1.
- Universal blocking and dodging-Would be nice to get some clarification on how that will be balanced with passive block, dodge, evade, and parry stats.
- The block animation is really high up. Especially the daggers. It's just an aesthetic but it felt a bit too high to me.
- The next few things are not related to the melee combat, but the two skills showcased. The hammer slam had no telegraph at all to show where it would land. For an experienced player that is fine, for a new player that is not. Options to telegraphs or some sort of ground target circles for those abilities would be nice.
- The animations for the whirlwind ability being the same for dagger and greatsword does feel a bit off. Where it will really feel off is if a class like the Ranger can use spells like the Hail of Arrows without a Bow equipped. Would be nice to get some clarification on how that is going to work.
- This is a bit unrelated to the showcase, but I am not in favor of friendly player collision being used as an AOE limiter. This creates all sorts of problems outside of combat when trying to move through crowded areas. Just use AOE caps that every other MMO uses. "Square Root Secondary Target Scaling" to me is the best solution to this.
- I am very concerned about the hybrid system as a whole and how that is going to work in terms of balance. Having some players with 75% TAB and others with 75% action seems to make a genre that is already very hard to balance, near impossible to balance. I am also concerned about having to use a hotkey to switch between a crosshair and TAB to be able to use the action skills. I know you can just point your cursor in a direction in TAB to cast action skills, but I personally would prefer just getting rid of the hotkey to switch modes and just have all action abilities cast from TAB using ground targeting or maybe a reticle for some of them that turns on when you press down the skill, and then you fire the skill by releasing the button and the reticle goes away again. This would just make it more seamless and less clunky.
- Not having enemy health bars is something I am against.
Again, these are all small things, and combat is looking great already. Only going to get better. Excited for the next few updates!Genesis Guild Discord
A bit too much visual effects, not really necessary for every swing.
Really nice with the ground decals, but limited to the heavy hitters ?
Should limit the movement on certain attacks, like the 360 one, bit odd when he floated away before it completed.
Interesting with the damage text, would be good if you could seperate them further, starting a bit to the side of the character.
Would also be really interesting to see how shields will work.
Thanks for sharing.
Get well soon!!!
A few addon suggestions I have would be:
- Why have just one speed/weight feel for a weapon? Having different ranks/rarities or some named items have a heavier feel than others would be a great way to diversify the weapons of the same kind.. and would make special items even more special.
- My second suggestion is a very execution based one rather than the actual idea's concept. Having a movement attached to the weapon itself. Image swinging your waraxe or hammer down and jumping on top for the second swing which then comes from underneath you. This could be a skill or a part of a combo. But having movement rather than just a charge attached to a weapon in a cool way would make the characters and combat seem a lot more skill based and fun.
Thanks for reading! Wish the team the best!
A simple Pioneer backer.
I genuinely really like the direction you guys are going in. Two things that really stood out to me were the directional attacks and the transition between auto attacks and skills.
Directional attack:
I think the directional attacks allow you to kite really well in both pve and pvp while still doing damage and the split body animations to go with them are looking very polished for alpha.
Auto attacks:
There were a couple of times where instead of doing the triple auto attack combo steven would just do the double combo and go right into the spin or the hammer. I think its really important to get the transition between those to be smooth because of how ashes combat is auto attack focused (like the example steven gave with the rogue autos and bleeding).
1. Animations are still too fast in some cases, losing the impact of the Blows. For example, the daggers are super, unrealistically fast. They feel like foam weapons.
2. The weapons blurs being gold just doesnt fit. If youre planning to add various motion blur colours, keep them to the colour majority ie, if a weapon is mostly silver, keep the blur silver, not gold.
Aman
The light/particels should be a side effect of magic ,adjuments or a special sword effect, simple attack should be simple in my mind.
Blocking, parrying and counterattacking on the perfect time can easily be a satisfying feeling. Aspecially when the animation is top notch. Parrying can be a slide movement effect that makes the enemy stumble past you while a counterattack might cause a definate crit allong with some scraping particle effect. I dont know much of camera blur and vibration but also this might add impact just as like was in the footage that you guys showed.
I already know that this game will be epic. Though i do implore for no big focus on the cashshop. Please be true to your fans. We love you so dont break our hearts.
Customizing battle text is a great choice. Sometimes I like to see damage meters, sometimes I don't. I also like that it is directional (getting hit, it moved from right to left in red, and your attacks moving left to right in a different color).
- Side note: This looks beautiful, I love how the sword, gear, and environment looks. Loving how the rock elementals blend in with the surroundings until you get close enough and engage!
this is a fucking video game bro, why do I feel like if I ask you: "name 1 MMORPG with good combat animations" you will say there's none, but I like kingdom come deliverance!
those animations are an 8/10, maybe 9, compared to any other MMORPG in the market, and if you feel like those animations are dogshit, this isn't a game for you, maybe you looking for something else, try searching for survival / medieval simulator games.
There is nothing wrong giving critical feedback even more so when most post are looks great or nitpicking with some feedback here and there.
Animations are pretty important, granted its a mmo but it is hybrid so it can really help to sell the idea of attacks and adding more flare to it. This isn't a normal post its clear the person (if I were to make a strong guess) works in the industry. He was a bit harsh in the comments maybe could have been a bit nicer or fair that it is in alpha, but could also be a point to make your post stand out more and get attention.
Also you can sell animations to people and they will buy it on the store