First off, it's very reassuring to hear from the engineers that they are focused and understand the benefit of building with modularity in mind. As a Senior software engineer, I've seen the mistake in not doing this far too many times and it become a blocker to future iteration/improvement. So, great work team!
The aesthetics, audio, animations... it all looked and sounded great. I particularly really enjoyed the circular swinging of the Sword and the sword cutting into it's surroundings when utilized. Steven did mention that they are only going to show us some abilities at a time for feedback in chunks and that we won't see everything for the sake of Alpha 2 mystery, which eases my nerves considering how much work in the combat and class kits could be.
Feedback
1. This does not feel like the heaviest sword a warrior could carry. Perhaps there is a larger, heavier, and slower Great Sword. Personally, I think a character could dual wield two of these swords and the speed remain the same, if not be a tad faster. Why? Because this isn't supposed to be too realistic and specifically for fun game-play by not letting the realism become too much a barrier. Game-play enjoyment > realism. Like I think those swords could fit on this ER image if that makes sense. 2. When running with the 2-handed weapon, I think the sword should be angled back more toward the shoulder than it currently is. Especially at 41:36 where the player is crouched forward and the sword is far forward, looks unbalanced and dweeby. Maybe not as far back as ER, but just as a point. 3. The upward movement with the sword that mirrors stylistically the icon OldSchool RuneScape God Sword Specification looks really good, and could be more pronounced, possibly even in a unique uppercut ability. 4. The pose with the daggers was a little awkward/cringe looking, as was the cloak in certain moments when bent over (looked bugged out). I think the dagger attacks could be even faster. And, it would be good to see some dagger attacks that are more like a shiv, or a normal slash down with both in each hand instead of primarily back handed slashes. It would liven the combination of attacks.
I think this pose is way cooler and more natural
I hope that we see more and the iteration from the feedback sooner and less far in-between.
there was a question about animation canceling that was sided stepped by the dev when answered.
Animation canceling, is always tested by the hard-core players in any game out there. How to get more dps from doing combos using keyboards, mouse and controllers that are set up for auto attacks and combos.
previous threads ask about dps meters.
What you consider accountable dps output, others will try for more.
The Developer purposely didn't answer about animation canceling because in my opinion, the developer things that it can't be done.
If this is an untrue statement, then please create a stream that addressed dps output, healing output, meters, animations, and how to optimize for min max best class to play.
My overall impression of the bassic attacks is 8/10. It looks very good at this stage. Below I will describe the only 3 things that in my opinion need to be changed/improved:
1. A glow effect after each auto attack
- I understand that it is added to give the animation of the weapon more weight. However, it looks very unnatural and is exaggerated. It should be reduced by about 60-70%. Moreover, the color should be gray/transparent, which should give the impression of leaving an air-cutting streak. Currently, it looks like there is a streak of fire or electricity behind the sword, what doesn't make sense. Maybe there will be an option to adjust this effect with a slider ?
In any case, it would be nice to see something like this as, for example, the effect of some high lvl weapon, or an fire upgrade to a weapon.
2. Sword swing lagging effect
- Watching the update I still had an impression that sword is lagging. After slowing down to 0.25, I found the reason. Everything looks great before sword comes into contact with the monster. We can observe 3-4 frames of animation, which is sufficient for human eye:
Problems begin after sword makes contact with a mob, because only frame I was able to capture, despite fact that I slowed down video significantly, is this one:
As you can see, a sword movement of almost 180 degrees was captured in only one frame. It gives the impression that sword has disappeared and appeared in a completely different place. I called it "Sword lagg effect". An extra frame in between seems to be a minumum to get a satisfactory result.
While writing this comment I came to the conclusion that the glow effect you introduced is also intended to camouflage the shortcomings of animations.
3. Mouse button holding to swing ?
It is only my opinion but I think that one press of mouse button should equal to one swing of sword. I think it adds a great deal of immersion, and I can't imagine that a game as ambitious as AoC lacks that. From what I've read, at the current moment we simply hold the button and the sequence executes itself.
Other points such as movement while blocking, which would add strength to mob attacks, have already been addressed.
You are doing a great job, keep it up! My fingers are always crossed for your project
I'm very late to the party on this one, but here's my thoughts:
- Directional animations look clean. Quite a bit of foot sliding, but that's more of a polishing thing I imagine.
- Sending chunks of golem flying was sick. I know ragdolls don't play nice with netcode, but if there was some way to get them working too that would be awesome.
- The motion streaks on the standard attacks were WAY over the top. It may look fine with just one character on screen, but you have to plan these effects around potentially 250+ players on screen at once. It's all well and good to have options to turn them down, the default setting should still be very conservative given the size of the battles you guys have planned.
- Loved the sound effects.
- Loved the camera effects.
- The spin move was a bit disappointing. Check out real greatsword/zweihander zoning techniques, they serve the same function and look 100x more badass than a generic cartoon helicopter spin -- though I imagine they'd also be hell to animate.
- Blocking should have a reaction animation where the character physically absorbs the blow. Exceptionally heavy attacks should send your character skidding backward.
Overall it's a big improvement, but there's still lots to do. Looking forward to see how it progresses.
Based on the combat update, having the character hold two handed weapons in that position (facing them upward) makes the character look odd while moving. The notion that the character arms can hold that great sword up indefinitely translates to the weapon losing its weight weight the longer you watch the character move. A better pose for a GS while moving would be dragged on the side or back similar to Tera , lost ark, monster hunter or over the shoulder similar to blade and soul and dark souls.
Also there is a lack of momentum and transition in the characters body animations when using skills due to the skills animations that chain together. For example at 16:34 the character will transition from spinning to an upper swing which also makes the weapon feel weightless as the character shouldn’t have such momentum swinging up going from a spin. GS skill animations should be focused on taking advantage of the GS weight going downwards and when there is an upward animation, the animation should start from the resting ( starting position) and be limited to how far up you can lift the GS in the animation, this due to weapon weight and arm position during the movement. A great example would be lost ark Beserker skills, most skills are slamming down or side to side from the starting position with a slight delay on the start of the animation due to weapon weight. The one skill that is an upper strike ( red dust ) doesn’t go very high upward and it’s almost a ground drag. This specific movement is actually very limited in real life also while holding a heavy/ long weapon due to extension and balance.
I am late to the party for the "basic attack" stream feedback, but wanted to still give my opinion on it.
As long as the basic attacks and each subsequent attack in the "combo use" system has:
1. practical situational uses
2. allows you options to use in an unpredictable and unreactable manner
3. maximizes the amount of control and player-freedom (such as the "agency" of movement, as well as the ability to cancel animations, make/change decisions on the fly, and doesn't restrict your reaction-based tools)
4. is balanced by the different aspects of the combat system (such as range/speed/etc.) that each attack has
5. supports both offensive and defensive playstyles-
then it should make for a great system and is a step in the right direction.
From a viewing perspective it seems as though it is going in the right direction in most of these areas, but it is hard to tell without actually testing it.
I absolutely love the direction to move toward more fast-paced skill based combat.
I think that good basic attacks are meant for:
A) a low committment/low risk option that can be used for protection to keep yourself safe by halting more high risk aggressive options, that a standard defensive option might not be able to deal with
B)a low committment/low risk option that can be used aggressively to poke at more defensive options
C) a tool a players can use to create space between the enemy. By being capable of being a threat using basic attacks against enemy options used at various ranges, this can condition the enemy to not want to constantly be aggressive, which can help classes that want to relieve some of that close up pressure, of which a standard defensive option might not always be capable of since that threat might not be there, freeing the enemy to always feel safe closing the gap.
For these reasons basic attacks can set you up for more advantageous situations when used correctly, in order to lead into your higher reward options
-but if basic attacks are used in a predictable manner with no situational awareness or thought put into it, then it can be countered, but this means they need to have the ability to be used unpredictably through player control, to maintain that low-risk aspect
I also really like the idea of the non-magic based attacks showing a more "physical" animation effects rather than the magical, such as the animation trail being the color of the weapon material.
Fighter should be the bonafide slugfest warrior combat class. Since you guys seem to be designing the game around people just slugging it out [magic or physical], I think you should limit that 'feel' and appeal to the pure Fighter class and slight deviation for the other sub-classes of Fighter.
The other 7 classes should appeal to a different audience by having a different 'game' for them.
Limit follow-through [pen] based on strength, weight, momentum [swing moment], and enemy please.
Have cutting weapons cause bleed across the board; unless they don't hit flesh/ veins. Some weapons are sharper of course; axes tend to blunt after one use.
Give blunt/ heavy weapons crippling blows (bone shattering) and Knock.
More realistic damage output based on weapon. Gamified somewhat but a lot more realistic so each weapon has a specific obvious strength and weakness.
Spammy low lethality low balance/weight combat isn't good. Korean MMOs are bad.
Elaboration:
If large weapon hits an enemy at start of swing, it doesn't pass through and does minimal damage.
If it hits at full speed, it can follow through or otherwise knock the enemy in the direction of the swing somewhat (based on enemy weight and user strength) causing an interrupt, possibly stun, extra damage to solid, heavy but brittle targets (like stone golems), and peak damage.
Extra damage to vulnerable areas; such as the head. Just warm up to it a little.
Follow through swings (passing through enemy) loses momentum and does less damage until it stops.
Light weapons skim and don't suffer this. Have light weapons do less damage to enemies that don't cut or bleed, like stone golems.
Give light weapon users a different approach to combat, such as explosives and "vs Earth Elemental" enchants on weapons [providing flat damage to their body's Ley Lines or whatever, rather than %].
Let heavy weapon users take on the role of "hitting big heavy enemies". Strength beats Strength.
Incorporate more enemies that require cutting or small weapons to kill, such as many small "Vine Lashers", small flying enmies maneuvering around, or whatever.
Incorporate 'sharpening'. It's fine if blunt weapons are simpler to maintain.
Flat stones can be used out in the world, or one in the bag, or a more thorough process with different materials elsewhere. Have blunting be pretty serious; first cut always sharpest, and weapons can dull easily. Give Rogues and Small weapons shorter sharpening times -> like 2 seconds for Rogues with small weapons. 4 seconds for Fighter with small weapons. 45 seconds for a Fighter with Greatsword.
Have stuff like Rocks affect durability and sharpness quickly.
Give Rogues a different way to fight: like 1 tapping 'Ice Picks' into a Rock elemental over some span of time then hammering them all the way (with tab precision). Fighters have a chance to hit them and drive them in, but lack the agility and precision to reliably do so. Fighters do more damage though.
Explosives always an option.
Give rogues 'faceshifting' or whatever and PvP without the same penalties. Maybe not amazing at PvP, but without penalties. Allows them to set something up and assassinate but not brawl without punity.
My opinion.
If I gave my full opinion it would be to lose the gamification and make it close to realistic. No follow-through unless you're cutting/blunting through multiple enemies. More input on combat effect [more control over movement nuance, aim, other stuff]. Fighter as the bonafide combat class. Everything else as part of the rest of the game but having their own stuff to do.
The great sword looked great! The daggers seemed kinda boring, it’d be cool to have a skill the throw them. I want to rp a Matt Cauthorn I’m interested to see how the polearms, spell book and crossbow play. Also spear and shield please. I think new world did a good job on the spear with javelin, vault kick and the sweep. I hope that the potion launcher doesn’t make it in. Guns break immersion in this type of game.
Comments
The aesthetics, audio, animations... it all looked and sounded great. I particularly really enjoyed the circular swinging of the Sword and the sword cutting into it's surroundings when utilized. Steven did mention that they are only going to show us some abilities at a time for feedback in chunks and that we won't see everything for the sake of Alpha 2 mystery, which eases my nerves considering how much work in the combat and class kits could be.
Feedback
1. This does not feel like the heaviest sword a warrior could carry. Perhaps there is a larger, heavier, and slower Great Sword. Personally, I think a character could dual wield two of these swords and the speed remain the same, if not be a tad faster. Why? Because this isn't supposed to be too realistic and specifically for fun game-play by not letting the realism become too much a barrier. Game-play enjoyment > realism. Like I think those swords could fit on this ER image if that makes sense.
2. When running with the 2-handed weapon, I think the sword should be angled back more toward the shoulder than it currently is. Especially at 41:36 where the player is crouched forward and the sword is far forward, looks unbalanced and dweeby. Maybe not as far back as ER, but just as a point.
3. The upward movement with the sword that mirrors stylistically the icon OldSchool RuneScape God Sword Specification looks really good, and could be more pronounced, possibly even in a unique uppercut ability.
4. The pose with the daggers was a little awkward/cringe looking, as was the cloak in certain moments when bent over (looked bugged out). I think the dagger attacks could be even faster. And, it would be good to see some dagger attacks that are more like a shiv, or a normal slash down with both in each hand instead of primarily back handed slashes. It would liven the combination of attacks.
I think this pose is way cooler and more natural
I hope that we see more and the iteration from the feedback sooner and less far in-between.
https://Twitch.tv/Eradal
https://Twitter.com/Eradal_
Animation canceling, is always tested by the hard-core players in any game out there. How to get more dps from doing combos using keyboards, mouse and controllers that are set up for auto attacks and combos.
previous threads ask about dps meters.
What you consider accountable dps output, others will try for more.
The Developer purposely didn't answer about animation canceling because in my opinion, the developer things that it can't be done.
If this is an untrue statement, then please create a stream that addressed dps output, healing output, meters, animations, and how to optimize for min max best class to play.
Thanks.
1. A glow effect after each auto attack
- I understand that it is added to give the animation of the weapon more weight. However, it looks very unnatural and is exaggerated. It should be reduced by about 60-70%. Moreover, the color should be gray/transparent, which should give the impression of leaving an air-cutting streak. Currently, it looks like there is a streak of fire or electricity behind the sword, what doesn't make sense. Maybe there will be an option to adjust this effect with a slider ?
In any case, it would be nice to see something like this as, for example, the effect of some high lvl weapon, or an fire upgrade to a weapon.
2. Sword swing lagging effect
- Watching the update I still had an impression that sword is lagging. After slowing down to 0.25, I found the reason. Everything looks great before sword comes into contact with the monster. We can observe 3-4 frames of animation, which is sufficient for human eye:
Problems begin after sword makes contact with a mob, because only frame I was able to capture, despite fact that I slowed down video significantly, is this one:
As you can see, a sword movement of almost 180 degrees was captured in only one frame. It gives the impression that sword has disappeared and appeared in a completely different place. I called it "Sword lagg effect". An extra frame in between seems to be a minumum to get a satisfactory result.
While writing this comment I came to the conclusion that the glow effect you introduced is also intended to camouflage the shortcomings of animations.
3. Mouse button holding to swing ?
It is only my opinion but I think that one press of mouse button should equal to one swing of sword. I think it adds a great deal of immersion, and I can't imagine that a game as ambitious as AoC lacks that. From what I've read, at the current moment we simply hold the button and the sequence executes itself.
Other points such as movement while blocking, which would add strength to mob attacks, have already been addressed.
You are doing a great job, keep it up! My fingers are always crossed for your project
Greetings!
I still dislike the light effects that accompany the attacks and overall I think the combat looks a bit too asian-style mmo-rpg for my taste.
- Directional animations look clean. Quite a bit of foot sliding, but that's more of a polishing thing I imagine.
- Sending chunks of golem flying was sick. I know ragdolls don't play nice with netcode, but if there was some way to get them working too that would be awesome.
- The motion streaks on the standard attacks were WAY over the top. It may look fine with just one character on screen, but you have to plan these effects around potentially 250+ players on screen at once. It's all well and good to have options to turn them down, the default setting should still be very conservative given the size of the battles you guys have planned.
- Loved the sound effects.
- Loved the camera effects.
- The spin move was a bit disappointing. Check out real greatsword/zweihander zoning techniques, they serve the same function and look 100x more badass than a generic cartoon helicopter spin -- though I imagine they'd also be hell to animate.
- Blocking should have a reaction animation where the character physically absorbs the blow. Exceptionally heavy attacks should send your character skidding backward.
Overall it's a big improvement, but there's still lots to do. Looking forward to see how it progresses.
Also there is a lack of momentum and transition in the characters body animations when using skills due to the skills animations that chain together. For example at 16:34 the character will transition from spinning to an upper swing which also makes the weapon feel weightless as the character shouldn’t have such momentum swinging up going from a spin. GS skill animations should be focused on taking advantage of the GS weight going downwards and when there is an upward animation, the animation should start from the resting ( starting position) and be limited to how far up you can lift the GS in the animation, this due to weapon weight and arm position during the movement. A great example would be lost ark Beserker skills, most skills are slamming down or side to side from the starting position with a slight delay on the start of the animation due to weapon weight. The one skill that is an upper strike ( red dust ) doesn’t go very high upward and it’s almost a ground drag. This specific movement is actually very limited in real life also while holding a heavy/ long weapon due to extension and balance.
As long as the basic attacks and each subsequent attack in the "combo use" system has:
1. practical situational uses
2. allows you options to use in an unpredictable and unreactable manner
3. maximizes the amount of control and player-freedom (such as the "agency" of movement, as well as the ability to cancel animations, make/change decisions on the fly, and doesn't restrict your reaction-based tools)
4. is balanced by the different aspects of the combat system (such as range/speed/etc.) that each attack has
5. supports both offensive and defensive playstyles-
then it should make for a great system and is a step in the right direction.
From a viewing perspective it seems as though it is going in the right direction in most of these areas, but it is hard to tell without actually testing it.
I absolutely love the direction to move toward more fast-paced skill based combat.
I think that good basic attacks are meant for:
A) a low committment/low risk option that can be used for protection to keep yourself safe by halting more high risk aggressive options, that a standard defensive option might not be able to deal with
B)a low committment/low risk option that can be used aggressively to poke at more defensive options
C) a tool a players can use to create space between the enemy. By being capable of being a threat using basic attacks against enemy options used at various ranges, this can condition the enemy to not want to constantly be aggressive, which can help classes that want to relieve some of that close up pressure, of which a standard defensive option might not always be capable of since that threat might not be there, freeing the enemy to always feel safe closing the gap.
For these reasons basic attacks can set you up for more advantageous situations when used correctly, in order to lead into your higher reward options
-but if basic attacks are used in a predictable manner with no situational awareness or thought put into it, then it can be countered, but this means they need to have the ability to be used unpredictably through player control, to maintain that low-risk aspect
I also really like the idea of the non-magic based attacks showing a more "physical" animation effects rather than the magical, such as the animation trail being the color of the weapon material.
The other 7 classes should appeal to a different audience by having a different 'game' for them.
Limit follow-through [pen] based on strength, weight, momentum [swing moment], and enemy please.
Have cutting weapons cause bleed across the board; unless they don't hit flesh/ veins. Some weapons are sharper of course; axes tend to blunt after one use.
Give blunt/ heavy weapons crippling blows (bone shattering) and Knock.
More realistic damage output based on weapon. Gamified somewhat but a lot more realistic so each weapon has a specific obvious strength and weakness.
Spammy low lethality low balance/weight combat isn't good. Korean MMOs are bad.
Elaboration:
If it hits at full speed, it can follow through or otherwise knock the enemy in the direction of the swing somewhat (based on enemy weight and user strength) causing an interrupt, possibly stun, extra damage to solid, heavy but brittle targets (like stone golems), and peak damage.
Extra damage to vulnerable areas; such as the head. Just warm up to it a little.
Follow through swings (passing through enemy) loses momentum and does less damage until it stops.
Light weapons skim and don't suffer this. Have light weapons do less damage to enemies that don't cut or bleed, like stone golems.
Give light weapon users a different approach to combat, such as explosives and "vs Earth Elemental" enchants on weapons [providing flat damage to their body's Ley Lines or whatever, rather than %].
Let heavy weapon users take on the role of "hitting big heavy enemies". Strength beats Strength.
Incorporate more enemies that require cutting or small weapons to kill, such as many small "Vine Lashers", small flying enmies maneuvering around, or whatever.
Incorporate 'sharpening'. It's fine if blunt weapons are simpler to maintain.
Flat stones can be used out in the world, or one in the bag, or a more thorough process with different materials elsewhere. Have blunting be pretty serious; first cut always sharpest, and weapons can dull easily. Give Rogues and Small weapons shorter sharpening times -> like 2 seconds for Rogues with small weapons. 4 seconds for Fighter with small weapons. 45 seconds for a Fighter with Greatsword.
Have stuff like Rocks affect durability and sharpness quickly.
Give Rogues a different way to fight: like 1 tapping 'Ice Picks' into a Rock elemental over some span of time then hammering them all the way (with tab precision). Fighters have a chance to hit them and drive them in, but lack the agility and precision to reliably do so. Fighters do more damage though.
Explosives always an option.
Give rogues 'faceshifting' or whatever and PvP without the same penalties. Maybe not amazing at PvP, but without penalties. Allows them to set something up and assassinate but not brawl without punity.
If I gave my full opinion it would be to lose the gamification and make it close to realistic. No follow-through unless you're cutting/blunting through multiple enemies. More input on combat effect [more control over movement nuance, aim, other stuff]. Fighter as the bonafide combat class. Everything else as part of the rest of the game but having their own stuff to do.