What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
I like to feel the hit of the weapon on my target. A small knock back, a knick like graphic where the sword struck. I want to feel a little weight to the attack. I also enjoy being in control of each hit so each mouse click is a separate sword attack. Action style combat.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Less swing effects from the weapon on basic swings unless it is a special skill. The yellow graphic. I feel giant effects to a weapon make It feel cheesy and not real and just cartoony. This also begins to clutter the screen during large fights with others.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
New World may have been a let down, but the hits felt good. The action style attacks where pressing left click attacked with your weapon is so needed in a good MMO today, but there are none out there with the love and passion that you all at AoC have. If we could get the similar basic attacks and blocking that New World had, but with a competent development team, you would stand above the rest and spear head the new age of MMORPG. Quite literally would define and be the new standard for all other MMOs. Tab targeting is outdated. The playstyle of WoW is outdated. We need more of the action style attacks. We want to feel in control of our attacks.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I don't feel the weight behind the attacks. I also noticed the character moving around the mobs but their attacks were still landing. It seems sort of pointless to move back and forth around a monster if they are still going to hit you. Final Fantasy and WoW suffer from this. This is an old MMO trope were moving around the target really doesn't do too much. If we are trying to create a new and updated MMO, then we need to move past this style of attacks. We need dodging to mean something.
I absolutely LOVE the direction you guys are going with the combat. My only 'negative' feedback would be to suggest adding more animations between each attack so it doesn't look 'instant'..making it flow more 👍 ❤️
The only thing i would maybe try to dial the speed on the greatsword a little bit down.
I totaly like your approach that you have the "floaty" movement out of pvp reasons to be able to move around the battlefield.
Keep the direction - this is how combat needs to look like if it is combined with tab target combat and healing!
For ranged combat / healing it is crucial to not only rely on skill shot capabilities - this would make fighting / healing a fast moving melee nearly impossible - hope you are still aiming for a healthy mix there.
Looking forward to test combat in alpha 2.
[Fleo Verum] Carolus Dynamicus - Py'rai - Rogue+Fighter
Combat looks impressive for an Alpha! Great job guys! The only thing that was missing to me was battle cries and shouts when swing the heavy sword and swiping with the daggers. Your heading in the right direction. Most impressive! Keep up the great work.
Pros:
YES the direction you went with this from what I've seen Pre A and A1, you are going the right way
I am a fan of what was showcased (even tho im more of a tab target fan to put it in general terms)
This seems like its a good mix of all type of combat for each type of play style, IE tank,dpd,healer
I can easily see what was shown translate to a mage with basic weapon attacks and such, and DPS for basic attacks
This mix is great and makes me more comfy with the combat, i was way worried it be to much like BDO.
Movement and combat seem well mixed
Cons:
the weapon skills just seem clunky, what looks cool for a GS or Hammer might not look cool for daggers. I know Steven said its gonna be class based not weapons based but might look at this a bit to make it "feel" a bit
Scarred you will go to far down the path of BDO combat/Movement
Will weapon ability's/skills get stale if it all looks the same no matter the weapon equipped ( GS and Dagger in stream had same skills shown)
Overall:
The Pros out weigh the cons for me on this one. On the path to make the masses happy with the mix of combat. This looks a feels like other MMO combat that i am ok with (as a tab target "fan") such as ESO and even new world. I think this direction will be good for PvE/PvP making this truly great for PvX.
What id like to see in the future is maybe more weapons being showcased for those of us who are leaning magic Char.
I just wanna know if these dodges are for fighter class/armor class type or what? I can't imagine 200v200 or even 30 v 30 fights with everyone jumping like that...
Overall the satisfaction of this initial depiction of the basic weapon swings is incredible. Honestly I did not take into account the colorization of the swings that may change the feeling of the weapon. I'd be interested to know if the sort of colorization that comes with the weapons... (The yellow drag of the sword and white-black of the daggers) .. rather than being tied to the weapons, as they would induce a certain flavor onto the character. However if this coloration was decided instead by your ARCHETYPE, people's opinions of "How a two handed sword should look" because your characters flavor is inherently designed through their archetype.
An interesting thought.. there is a lot of creative and mythical movements that come with the blade in these animations already. Giving full body spins and large arcs of movement. My question is, is there more room for the potential with lighter weapons like daggers? I think it would be amazing two spin around and give a double "Uppercut" with the daggers, giving a meaty and devastating stab. The obvious issue with that would be, the more movement and extravagance, the less agency. Which is contrary to the initial concept associated with the light weapons. In addition to that, the faster the animation and more extreme, the more of a blue the movement can be.
I think that the team is already on the BEST PATH POSSIBLE when it comes to weapons and their satisfaction. As much as animations can look cool, and the weapons themselves have beautiful art.. The weight and the fantastic feeling is from the audio-sfx interaction. Bass and succinct stereo are the meat and potatoes of making amazing weapon swings. If you headphones are shook with every slam of your warhammer, if the sound waves feel like they're slicing through your own ears with each slash of your blade. Those are the FEELINGS that you can experience, and can immerse you deeply into the game.
There is innumerable potential here. As someone who's been testing since apocalypse.. When Steven asks if we're in the right direction from where we were from the past.. You all have been a stairway to heaven by this point. Here's to hoping we continue to climb.
I liked:
I love the direction the combat system is taking so far. Not getting rooted in place is awesome, the animations look awesome (especially the whirlwind attack, i love spinny things). To be able to block, awesome! Having dashes, blinks and so on, awesome! The feedback for each weaponswing looks awesome (it makes me wanna hit stonegolems for a day or too. But that has to wait a few months i guess ) Also huge shoutouts to the movement of the rockgolems, the rolling movement just looks adorable
What from my perspective should be adjusted: For me personally the combat looks a bit too fast, especially for two-handed sword.
Keep up the awesome work Can't wait for next months update
Amazing to see the progress that has been made since Alpha 1! Here are some of my takes on what we saw today.
Pros:
-The animations and attack combos seemed quite fluid for this stage of development
-The dodge roll looked clean!
-The attack- and death animations from the enemies was on point
-The audio ques and customization of damage numbers is something I loved
Cons:
-Heavy weapons for me still didn't deliver the feeling of being heavy. For me these need to have some stagger effect on enemies and also some emphasis of impact/follow through of an attack
-Some of the animations with the daggers seemed almost too quick and not as sharp because of this
-Enemies need to react more to strikes of weapons
-The block animations and impact of enemy attacks on the player need to have more to them. As it was now it seemed a bit stale
-I did not much like how the experience number was presented in the current format, would like to see it separated from damage numbers more than it was currently
I think you are absolutely going in the right direction and I love the movement impairment or lack thereof in the different weapon types.
However I do have some feedback on the attack speeds/movement impairments on the heavier weapons.
I think you should go a bit harder on them, as in I think you should slow the attack speed of the great sword by maybe 10-20% or maybe increase the windup as the attacks themselves look/feel great and weighty but they come so fast after each other that it just seems like the sword itself is weightless even though the attacks and slams have weight it just doesn't look right to just machine gun swing that thing so fast. -Side note, I love the backswings on the 2h sword they're great!
Also you said this was the upper limit on the heavy weapons but I think that's not a good idea, what about a great club/maul/halberd they should all feel and act in a heavier manner than a 2H sword and if they don't it would actually detract from the differing feel and play style those heavier weapons could offer.
Also I'm with the others here, make the sword slashes the same colour as the daggers... Yellow looks a bit weird.
This is the first showcase I've seen! All in all looks awesome!
I know Steven stated his disdain for weapon abilities/skills, but I think there is space for at the very least visual alterations of appropriate abilities depending on what weapon you are wielding. For example, the overhead hammer smash ability showcased today could easily be a sword while wielding a sword, or a dual downward stab similar to the back directional 3rd attack animation while wielding the daggers, and you could change the color of the whirlwind ability from the yellow trial to the silvery trail of the daggers. There doesn't have to be mechanical changes but it feels a little odd to summon a giant yellow hammer if Im primarily a dual dagger wielding weapon master.
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AntDawgThaBossMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Overall I like the way combat animations are looking.
Looks like performance improvements are there too.
Major Pro - Attacks feel impactful and compelling.
Major Con - Base attack effects seem like a bit too much especially for physical based weapons.
Would love to see an option to turn weapon auto attack effects on/off for physical based weapons or even a slider.
Just to answer Steven's main question : is this the right direction in your opinion ?
Yes. I like the free movement design, no rigid locking. You can miss naturally which is immersive.
The movements felt a bit too fast for my taste, but that is a detail. I also agree with other comments that the heaviness could be increased and possibly the feeling of impact/contact.
( I won't comment on things we might see in the next showcases.)
I dislike using magic, so melee and ranged weapons are my preference, but I especially prefer melee. I hope that magic won't be so OP that melee builds are discouraged.
It seems like, in most games, there are times when enemies are just out of range for melee char's. Flying enemies can be a real pain. Being able to swap to a ranged weapon or using thrown weapons seems to be the preferred method of most games to combat this, but if you can't grab aggro you could be gimped to using this one weak attack the entire time. I'd really like to see this problem addressed.
The thing about melee char's is that we're always in the most danger! We're right in striking range and we have to do a lot more maneuvering to get out of "the red" most of the time. Meanwhile ranged DPS is just able to one-hand the mobs while they're snackin' on Doritos! Especially in PvP it can be hell being kited as a melee build. Will melee char's have any bonuses to balance this drawback (i.e. inherently better defense, DPS or maneuverability)?
I really like the pace of the melee combat shown in the dev update. It's not too unrealistic like BDO, but a bit flashier and weightier than ESO, and it just looked really fun. Overall I don't have any criticisms about the melee combat itself. It looks like it's headed in a really good direction.
Very good progress being pre alpha 2 combat.
I would like to give my point of view on what I think the combat in AoC should be.
While it is known that AoC will have a Hybrid combat that will give TAB and AC players the peace of mind that their styles are in the game, it does not ensure that FREEDOM of movement is assured.
What is freedom of movement?
It is not only to be able to move fluidly but to be able to use that fluidity WITH FREEDOM to generate other things.
In BDO you can move in a frenetic way but that does not mean absolute control over what your character does, it could be said that those frenetic movements are difficult to maneuver for a more strategic style.
So you could say that BDO gives a FALSE sense of freedom where movements appear to be FREE to control but in reality cannot be controlled efficiently to get the most out of them.
On the other hand lol even though LOL has limited moves it offers more freedom because with those moves you can make moves that would change the events of a battle, you can outplay your opponent by being creative BECAUSE THOSE LIMITED MOVEMENTS give you the freedom to do so in the LOL combat system.
BDO : frenetic moves that are not entirely controllable.
AoC since it will be a HIBRID combat should take into account that the sensation of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frenetic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, not freedom in the movements, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the ability to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to outpplay your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.
What do I mean by these examples?
AoC as it will be a HIBRID combat must take into account that the feeling of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frantic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, there is no freedom in something that you can not control at all, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the possibility to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to Outplay your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.
The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.
The only real criticism from today is that the daggers moved TOO fast. Speed is good, but those animations were very cartoony how fast it transitioned from each iteration of basic attacks. It was bordering on what I would imagine an "ultimate" ability would let you do as far as attack speed is concerned. Having the base level be that fast doesn't let you have much flexibility for attack speed buffs or augments that you might want further down the line.
Even just watching it gave a sense of the "feel" of the heavy weapon. The animation supported this - but the timing on every next attack also seemed quite reasonable, with the twin daggers versus the heavy sword.
If it *has* to be an action-based combat system, I'd prefer something like BDO's combat. NWO was not nearly as-responsive to the direction you were trying to face - something the guys in the video made a specific mention of. BDO was better at this, though still not as good as what we previewed, today.
- Sword yellow glint looks a bit off (a bit cartoonish) compared to detailed and realistic landscape environment
- I suppose all auto-attacks cleave by default... I'd like this to be maybe reworked since it can interfere with some potential spell designs or mechanics (If i'm cleaving by default multiple groups of different mobs for example and some of mobs can potentially have mechanic where they actually heal up or gain stacking armor/resist buff for every instance of damage they take and i wanna avoid hitting them until that spell expires but i can't do that because my attacks will hit them by default due to cleaving...)
- In general i like what we are being shown, ofc think most of ppl agree that animations and movement looked choppy/not that smooth in some situations but i'm sure it will be polished out!
Positives I saw:
*Basic attack animations are much easier on the eyes. This version of particle effect is much more pleasant.
*The mob combat showed improvement from A1 testing.
*Audio seemed good overall for combat.
*The spin melee ability seemed nice as well as the overhead linear slam and the backwards dash.
*Basic attack combination fluidity
*Melee combat clicking seemed a little less intensive for our fingers.
Aspects I'm less certain about:
The abilities being class oriented and not weapon locked. I don't have an issue with this but it raises a lot of questions. It looks incongruous having a longsword and a pair of daggers do the same ability animations with the same size/scope of their effect if playing the same class. I get that their could be a magical aspect of casting them, but it looks odd. I would expect a dagger user to have less range then a sword user for their abilities in general.
I'd like to see differentiation between the weapons to show off their strengths and weaknesses somehow and be less of a cosmetic difference in combat for rp purposes. Seeing a pair of daggers summon a hammer attack is odd, even for the sword it still seems out of place.
For the same reason it was mentioned that you don't want to see clown costumes for gear dyes and are limiting that, the same thought process should apply to a degree for combat. It's going to be odd seeing a mace user or a hammer user cast bow and arrow ability animations or fireballs. I'd like to somehow see consistency between the held weapon and the ability animations and functions they use somehow. Seeing a bow user crack the earth with a hammer ability attack isn't going to make sense. How you go about designing a system that has logical consistency between their core personality and the class archetype abilities I think you have freedom in figuring out.
I'd like to avoid things like guns that pop out a flower as a prank, etc. in my mmo (I'm aware that there won't be guns in the game). A tome that shoots arrow abilities, hammers that use rapid 1h dagger stabbing motions, bow players that summon meteors etc. Swords that play bard music abilities. I think these need to be avoided.
I'd prefer to avoid a bizarro world where everything is not as it appears and there is visual inconsistency between players appearance, held weapon, and abilities their classes employ.
Maybe there are types of abilities and the held weapon embues them somehow but the ability animation takes on the appearance, characteristics in some way, and shape (show a bow in gold above your head if it's a bow, or a hammer if it's a hammer) of the held weapon?
There's a bit of confusion from a viewer standpoint as the held weapon seems as much of a cosmetic than it is function as to combat design.
One thing I was curious to see that you DID NOT show was what happens when you JUMP and then hit your attack, will it give you and alternate attack animation? or a run and jump attack weather that changes how the animation plays out.
Global feeling :
I think the overall system looks and feels great. Like really great
No doubt the job that has been done is amazing. And definitely heading toward the right direction.
I especially love how it felt like the Py'Rai was actually slowed down by the weight of the sword during the animations vs. how the dual daggers were like an endless flow of swift attacks.
This stuff + the ground impacts are very immersive in my opinion. Again, that's some great work.
--
Animation effects ( « flashiness » and color) :
- About the flashy animations :
One aspect I'm not as much of a fanboy is the « flashy » aspect of the animations of the greatsword.
Quick movement and brightness tends to caugh the eye's attention.
Although the effect of the animations itself looks great, I came to realize after seeing a couple of swings that I could neither pay full attention to the mob (opponent). Nor to the character positionning and movements.
The flashy « traces » were getting my eye's attention again and again.
This is somehow annoying to me because being able to focus is crucial, especially regarding PvP.
I want to be able to catch what my opponent is doing and what my character is doing in the blink of an eye in order to be able to react properly.
And the « flashiness » definitely got in my way here. Having great animations should not be detrimental to this focus matter to me.
- About the colors around the sword animations :
When I saw them at first I felt like the yellow « traces » of the sword movement were... well, too much « yellowish ».
I felt like this yellow color didn't... fit. Like it was not natural. Even if the sword's blade had some yellow part if I recall correctly.
I mean, having some metal « traces » of the swings feels good. Elemental traces if having an elemental-damage weapon should look good too I believe. But this yellow colour felt like it was... not what a very metal-based sword's swings should look like.
Although this first impression was soften by getting accustomed to the swings.
--
On the contrary, I've not had these feelings for the dual daggers swings at all. It looked much better on a color perspective, as well as on a « flashy » perspective to me.
--
In order to conclude/summarize :
- Global feeling about the basic attacks : very immersive. And impressive. Top grade. Congratulations.
- I'd like the colors of the « traces » of the swings to... « fit » more. (I guess this is subjective matter though?)
- I'd like the animations not to « forcibly » take the eye's attention from the opponont and character. Maybe make it a bit less flashy ?
"We have two lives, and the second one begins when we set foot on Verra."
-To me melee basics attacks is where you should better understand which weapon someone us and where there should be the most intimacy between the movement of the character and his weapon.
- I think you are missing 3 more animations for side steps attack ( mirror them and it make 6 mores )
- For the basic melee weapons go check Elden ring if you need more inspiration, but to me you are in a good spot already for a mmorpg.
- except for the addition of side animation, nothing to change for me.
- As a critic for the ability and what has been said about not having weapons skills.
I'm good with no weapon skill , but the spine ability with daggers feel out of place.
I'll suggest to have the gold effect matching the size of the weapon and a silver one as the one of the daggers for the reste of the ability hit box.
If easy to be done , for dual Weapons, having a double animation in a V to make sense.
For a while I was wondering if ashes would have "ok" combat and great systems, but after the showcase I feel like you all can really pull off the combat, so, great job to the team it generally looked great, especially when compared to what came before. I did however have two critiques.
- First would be that the light flashing with each strike's path felt a bit much compared to the general aesthetic of the game so far and so felt somewhat out of place and moreso belonging in a game like say Guild Wars 2 or DCUO which are both "realistic" but have more of a cartoony feel to them. Perhaps a way to adjust those animations at player discretion or a slightly more toned version of the effect would be moreso what I feel would work better.
- Second is that the transition between the animations of the attacks seemed somewhat choppy, almost as if each animation would start up right after the other without much transition animation in between. This one might just be due to earliness in iteration, but I think a smoother more natural feeling transition would be better.
Overall though, I am very pleased with the direction combat seems to be going and the fluidity of movement and attacking looked very enjoyable. In particular I really like the way mobility skills seem to feel, the mage's default blink, the unnamed dash from the seasons update, and the dash/teleport of the combat update all look like they will be fun to just use and play around with. Movement in particular is something I find often times neglected in MMOs, when there is so much potential for fun with movement skills(a MMO I felt did this very uniquely and very well was Age of Wushu), so good job on that end in particular as well.
I like the animation improvements and the overall direction. I like the blur effect. I think the colour effects on the swings need to be more subtle. But overall great
Overall looks like an improvement to me (note: I did not play alpha 1 but did play some apocalypse). I think the biggest and most important feedback I have is: tone down/remove the fx while showing off combat, especially when this is not your focus. I felt like I could not get a good feeling for the swing speed etc because of the bright yellow fx on the swing. I could not tell if the monsters or the player reacted to/recoiled from hits for example. That being said, I liked the dagger fx more so than the sword :P.
The gashes on the ground from the swings were subtle but a nice touch. I especially liked how they were hidden by foliage if the sword contacted the ground on grass.
The combat numbers looked much much much better. It would be good to see healing and degen/dot numbers and to know if you can adjust those separately.
Loved the mobs and their animations from spawn to death. Great feel of being ambushed and the unknown danger of the world.
I love the way combat looks smooth, slow animations when using heavy sword and faster animations (and mobility) when using dual dagger.
I loved the few skills animations that were shown.
The UI customization for damage indicators are amazing, I loved it. Im not sure if it was alredy planned, but if we have some save slots for UI customizations would be amazing and time saving. So people dont need to change manually in every combat type. (In wars/sieges you want to see the damages going trough the enemys or heals in your party/raid and when justing farming you no need all that information).
Im not sure if using the same skills animations for different "weapon style" seems good to me. I mean ok, you are tank or a warrior, you have that skill set, but maybe some skills aspects maybe change when using different weapons, forcing the people the choose the best weapon/skills combinations. You can use the spin skill with hammers, 2h swords and daggers, but the skill area, damage and root/stuns/snares could have different numbers, also differents animations.
I really loved this update and expect to see more and more coming from Ashes. You guys are doing a great work.
"With great heals come great parties."
SA-EU [PT/US]
Healer/Support player since 2009.
Aion, D&D, Path Finder, Ragnarok, Tibia, Tera, GW2, WoW, Albion, BDO, AA, AA:U, Lost Ark, C9
DMs always open.
Comments
I like to feel the hit of the weapon on my target. A small knock back, a knick like graphic where the sword struck. I want to feel a little weight to the attack. I also enjoy being in control of each hit so each mouse click is a separate sword attack. Action style combat.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Less swing effects from the weapon on basic swings unless it is a special skill. The yellow graphic. I feel giant effects to a weapon make It feel cheesy and not real and just cartoony. This also begins to clutter the screen during large fights with others.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
New World may have been a let down, but the hits felt good. The action style attacks where pressing left click attacked with your weapon is so needed in a good MMO today, but there are none out there with the love and passion that you all at AoC have. If we could get the similar basic attacks and blocking that New World had, but with a competent development team, you would stand above the rest and spear head the new age of MMORPG. Quite literally would define and be the new standard for all other MMOs. Tab targeting is outdated. The playstyle of WoW is outdated. We need more of the action style attacks. We want to feel in control of our attacks.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I don't feel the weight behind the attacks. I also noticed the character moving around the mobs but their attacks were still landing. It seems sort of pointless to move back and forth around a monster if they are still going to hit you. Final Fantasy and WoW suffer from this. This is an old MMO trope were moving around the target really doesn't do too much. If we are trying to create a new and updated MMO, then we need to move past this style of attacks. We need dodging to mean something.
The only thing i would maybe try to dial the speed on the greatsword a little bit down.
I totaly like your approach that you have the "floaty" movement out of pvp reasons to be able to move around the battlefield.
Keep the direction - this is how combat needs to look like if it is combined with tab target combat and healing!
For ranged combat / healing it is crucial to not only rely on skill shot capabilities - this would make fighting / healing a fast moving melee nearly impossible - hope you are still aiming for a healthy mix there.
Looking forward to test combat in alpha 2.
member of Knights of the Phoenix
YES the direction you went with this from what I've seen Pre A and A1, you are going the right way
I am a fan of what was showcased (even tho im more of a tab target fan to put it in general terms)
This seems like its a good mix of all type of combat for each type of play style, IE tank,dpd,healer
I can easily see what was shown translate to a mage with basic weapon attacks and such, and DPS for basic attacks
This mix is great and makes me more comfy with the combat, i was way worried it be to much like BDO.
Movement and combat seem well mixed
Cons:
the weapon skills just seem clunky, what looks cool for a GS or Hammer might not look cool for daggers. I know Steven said its gonna be class based not weapons based but might look at this a bit to make it "feel" a bit
Scarred you will go to far down the path of BDO combat/Movement
Will weapon ability's/skills get stale if it all looks the same no matter the weapon equipped ( GS and Dagger in stream had same skills shown)
Overall:
The Pros out weigh the cons for me on this one. On the path to make the masses happy with the mix of combat. This looks a feels like other MMO combat that i am ok with (as a tab target "fan") such as ESO and even new world. I think this direction will be good for PvE/PvP making this truly great for PvX.
What id like to see in the future is maybe more weapons being showcased for those of us who are leaning magic Char.
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An interesting thought.. there is a lot of creative and mythical movements that come with the blade in these animations already. Giving full body spins and large arcs of movement. My question is, is there more room for the potential with lighter weapons like daggers? I think it would be amazing two spin around and give a double "Uppercut" with the daggers, giving a meaty and devastating stab. The obvious issue with that would be, the more movement and extravagance, the less agency. Which is contrary to the initial concept associated with the light weapons. In addition to that, the faster the animation and more extreme, the more of a blue the movement can be.
I think that the team is already on the BEST PATH POSSIBLE when it comes to weapons and their satisfaction. As much as animations can look cool, and the weapons themselves have beautiful art.. The weight and the fantastic feeling is from the audio-sfx interaction. Bass and succinct stereo are the meat and potatoes of making amazing weapon swings. If you headphones are shook with every slam of your warhammer, if the sound waves feel like they're slicing through your own ears with each slash of your blade. Those are the FEELINGS that you can experience, and can immerse you deeply into the game.
There is innumerable potential here. As someone who's been testing since apocalypse.. When Steven asks if we're in the right direction from where we were from the past.. You all have been a stairway to heaven by this point. Here's to hoping we continue to climb.
Thanks you for reading,
Chaos
I love the direction the combat system is taking so far. Not getting rooted in place is awesome, the animations look awesome (especially the whirlwind attack, i love spinny things). To be able to block, awesome! Having dashes, blinks and so on, awesome! The feedback for each weaponswing looks awesome (it makes me wanna hit stonegolems for a day or too. But that has to wait a few months i guess
What from my perspective should be adjusted: For me personally the combat looks a bit too fast, especially for two-handed sword.
Keep up the awesome work
Pros:
-The animations and attack combos seemed quite fluid for this stage of development
-The dodge roll looked clean!
-The attack- and death animations from the enemies was on point
-The audio ques and customization of damage numbers is something I loved
Cons:
-Heavy weapons for me still didn't deliver the feeling of being heavy. For me these need to have some stagger effect on enemies and also some emphasis of impact/follow through of an attack
-Some of the animations with the daggers seemed almost too quick and not as sharp because of this
-Enemies need to react more to strikes of weapons
-The block animations and impact of enemy attacks on the player need to have more to them. As it was now it seemed a bit stale
-I did not much like how the experience number was presented in the current format, would like to see it separated from damage numbers more than it was currently
However I do have some feedback on the attack speeds/movement impairments on the heavier weapons.
I think you should go a bit harder on them, as in I think you should slow the attack speed of the great sword by maybe 10-20% or maybe increase the windup as the attacks themselves look/feel great and weighty but they come so fast after each other that it just seems like the sword itself is weightless even though the attacks and slams have weight it just doesn't look right to just machine gun swing that thing so fast. -Side note, I love the backswings on the 2h sword they're great!
Also you said this was the upper limit on the heavy weapons but I think that's not a good idea, what about a great club/maul/halberd they should all feel and act in a heavier manner than a 2H sword and if they don't it would actually detract from the differing feel and play style those heavier weapons could offer.
Also I'm with the others here, make the sword slashes the same colour as the daggers... Yellow looks a bit weird.
I know Steven stated his disdain for weapon abilities/skills, but I think there is space for at the very least visual alterations of appropriate abilities depending on what weapon you are wielding. For example, the overhead hammer smash ability showcased today could easily be a sword while wielding a sword, or a dual downward stab similar to the back directional 3rd attack animation while wielding the daggers, and you could change the color of the whirlwind ability from the yellow trial to the silvery trail of the daggers. There doesn't have to be mechanical changes but it feels a little odd to summon a giant yellow hammer if Im primarily a dual dagger wielding weapon master.
Looks like performance improvements are there too.
Major Pro - Attacks feel impactful and compelling.
Major Con - Base attack effects seem like a bit too much especially for physical based weapons.
Would love to see an option to turn weapon auto attack effects on/off for physical based weapons or even a slider.
Yes. I like the free movement design, no rigid locking. You can miss naturally which is immersive.
The movements felt a bit too fast for my taste, but that is a detail. I also agree with other comments that the heaviness could be increased and possibly the feeling of impact/contact.
( I won't comment on things we might see in the next showcases.)
It seems like, in most games, there are times when enemies are just out of range for melee char's. Flying enemies can be a real pain. Being able to swap to a ranged weapon or using thrown weapons seems to be the preferred method of most games to combat this, but if you can't grab aggro you could be gimped to using this one weak attack the entire time. I'd really like to see this problem addressed.
The thing about melee char's is that we're always in the most danger! We're right in striking range and we have to do a lot more maneuvering to get out of "the red" most of the time. Meanwhile ranged DPS is just able to one-hand the mobs while they're snackin' on Doritos! Especially in PvP it can be hell being kited as a melee build. Will melee char's have any bonuses to balance this drawback (i.e. inherently better defense, DPS or maneuverability)?
I really like the pace of the melee combat shown in the dev update. It's not too unrealistic like BDO, but a bit flashier and weightier than ESO, and it just looked really fun. Overall I don't have any criticisms about the melee combat itself. It looks like it's headed in a really good direction.
I would like to give my point of view on what I think the combat in AoC should be.
While it is known that AoC will have a Hybrid combat that will give TAB and AC players the peace of mind that their styles are in the game, it does not ensure that FREEDOM of movement is assured.
What is freedom of movement?
It is not only to be able to move fluidly but to be able to use that fluidity WITH FREEDOM to generate other things.
In BDO you can move in a frenetic way but that does not mean absolute control over what your character does, it could be said that those frenetic movements are difficult to maneuver for a more strategic style.
So you could say that BDO gives a FALSE sense of freedom where movements appear to be FREE to control but in reality cannot be controlled efficiently to get the most out of them.
On the other hand lol even though LOL has limited moves it offers more freedom because with those moves you can make moves that would change the events of a battle, you can outplay your opponent by being creative BECAUSE THOSE LIMITED MOVEMENTS give you the freedom to do so in the LOL combat system.
BDO : frenetic moves that are not entirely controllable.
LOL : Safe movements that are very controllable.
Who gives the feeling of more freedom in combat ?
What do I mean by these examples?
AoC since it will be a HIBRID combat should take into account that the sensation of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frenetic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, not freedom in the movements, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the ability to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to outpplay your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.
What do I mean by these examples?
AoC as it will be a HIBRID combat must take into account that the feeling of FREEDOM in combat can be generated in different ways, it is not necessary to have a very frantic combat where you jump from one side to another without stopping, there is no freedom in something that you can not control at all, but to have SAFE movements that give the player the possibility to change the events of a battle being creative, being able to Outplay your opponent BECAUSE THE COMBAT SYSTEM allows you to do so.
The freedom of movement is something that both PVP and PVE players would appreciate because they would be given the tools to be creative and that is something that in combat is a lot of fun and encourages players to be able and want to improve in their movements.
If it *has* to be an action-based combat system, I'd prefer something like BDO's combat. NWO was not nearly as-responsive to the direction you were trying to face - something the guys in the video made a specific mention of. BDO was better at this, though still not as good as what we previewed, today.
- I suppose all auto-attacks cleave by default... I'd like this to be maybe reworked since it can interfere with some potential spell designs or mechanics (If i'm cleaving by default multiple groups of different mobs for example and some of mobs can potentially have mechanic where they actually heal up or gain stacking armor/resist buff for every instance of damage they take and i wanna avoid hitting them until that spell expires but i can't do that because my attacks will hit them by default due to cleaving...)
- In general i like what we are being shown, ofc think most of ppl agree that animations and movement looked choppy/not that smooth in some situations but i'm sure it will be polished out!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks for the dev stream showcase. I enjoyed it.
Positives I saw:
*Basic attack animations are much easier on the eyes. This version of particle effect is much more pleasant.
*The mob combat showed improvement from A1 testing.
*Audio seemed good overall for combat.
*The spin melee ability seemed nice as well as the overhead linear slam and the backwards dash.
*Basic attack combination fluidity
*Melee combat clicking seemed a little less intensive for our fingers.
Aspects I'm less certain about:
The abilities being class oriented and not weapon locked. I don't have an issue with this but it raises a lot of questions. It looks incongruous having a longsword and a pair of daggers do the same ability animations with the same size/scope of their effect if playing the same class. I get that their could be a magical aspect of casting them, but it looks odd. I would expect a dagger user to have less range then a sword user for their abilities in general.
I'd like to see differentiation between the weapons to show off their strengths and weaknesses somehow and be less of a cosmetic difference in combat for rp purposes. Seeing a pair of daggers summon a hammer attack is odd, even for the sword it still seems out of place.
For the same reason it was mentioned that you don't want to see clown costumes for gear dyes and are limiting that, the same thought process should apply to a degree for combat. It's going to be odd seeing a mace user or a hammer user cast bow and arrow ability animations or fireballs. I'd like to somehow see consistency between the held weapon and the ability animations and functions they use somehow. Seeing a bow user crack the earth with a hammer ability attack isn't going to make sense. How you go about designing a system that has logical consistency between their core personality and the class archetype abilities I think you have freedom in figuring out.
I'd like to avoid things like guns that pop out a flower as a prank, etc. in my mmo (I'm aware that there won't be guns in the game). A tome that shoots arrow abilities, hammers that use rapid 1h dagger stabbing motions, bow players that summon meteors etc. Swords that play bard music abilities. I think these need to be avoided.
I'd prefer to avoid a bizarro world where everything is not as it appears and there is visual inconsistency between players appearance, held weapon, and abilities their classes employ.
Maybe there are types of abilities and the held weapon embues them somehow but the ability animation takes on the appearance, characteristics in some way, and shape (show a bow in gold above your head if it's a bow, or a hammer if it's a hammer) of the held weapon?
There's a bit of confusion from a viewer standpoint as the held weapon seems as much of a cosmetic than it is function as to combat design.
member of Knights of the Phoenix
Global feeling :
I think the overall system looks and feels great. Like really great
No doubt the job that has been done is amazing. And definitely heading toward the right direction.
I especially love how it felt like the Py'Rai was actually slowed down by the weight of the sword during the animations vs. how the dual daggers were like an endless flow of swift attacks.
This stuff + the ground impacts are very immersive in my opinion. Again, that's some great work.
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Animation effects ( « flashiness » and color) :
- About the flashy animations :
One aspect I'm not as much of a fanboy is the « flashy » aspect of the animations of the greatsword.
Quick movement and brightness tends to caugh the eye's attention.
Although the effect of the animations itself looks great, I came to realize after seeing a couple of swings that I could neither pay full attention to the mob (opponent). Nor to the character positionning and movements.
The flashy « traces » were getting my eye's attention again and again.
This is somehow annoying to me because being able to focus is crucial, especially regarding PvP.
I want to be able to catch what my opponent is doing and what my character is doing in the blink of an eye in order to be able to react properly.
And the « flashiness » definitely got in my way here. Having great animations should not be detrimental to this focus matter to me.
- About the colors around the sword animations :
When I saw them at first I felt like the yellow « traces » of the sword movement were... well, too much « yellowish ».
I felt like this yellow color didn't... fit. Like it was not natural. Even if the sword's blade had some yellow part if I recall correctly.
I mean, having some metal « traces » of the swings feels good. Elemental traces if having an elemental-damage weapon should look good too I believe. But this yellow colour felt like it was... not what a very metal-based sword's swings should look like.
Although this first impression was soften by getting accustomed to the swings.
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On the contrary, I've not had these feelings for the dual daggers swings at all. It looked much better on a color perspective, as well as on a « flashy » perspective to me.
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In order to conclude/summarize :
- Global feeling about the basic attacks : very immersive. And impressive. Top grade. Congratulations.
- I'd like the colors of the « traces » of the swings to... « fit » more. (I guess this is subjective matter though?)
- I'd like the animations not to « forcibly » take the eye's attention from the opponont and character. Maybe make it a bit less flashy ?
- I think you are missing 3 more animations for side steps attack ( mirror them and it make 6 mores )
- For the basic melee weapons go check Elden ring if you need more inspiration, but to me you are in a good spot already for a mmorpg.
- except for the addition of side animation, nothing to change for me.
- As a critic for the ability and what has been said about not having weapons skills.
I'm good with no weapon skill , but the spine ability with daggers feel out of place.
I'll suggest to have the gold effect matching the size of the weapon and a silver one as the one of the daggers for the reste of the ability hit box.
If easy to be done , for dual Weapons, having a double animation in a V to make sense.
Keep up the good work!
- First would be that the light flashing with each strike's path felt a bit much compared to the general aesthetic of the game so far and so felt somewhat out of place and moreso belonging in a game like say Guild Wars 2 or DCUO which are both "realistic" but have more of a cartoony feel to them. Perhaps a way to adjust those animations at player discretion or a slightly more toned version of the effect would be moreso what I feel would work better.
- Second is that the transition between the animations of the attacks seemed somewhat choppy, almost as if each animation would start up right after the other without much transition animation in between. This one might just be due to earliness in iteration, but I think a smoother more natural feeling transition would be better.
Overall though, I am very pleased with the direction combat seems to be going and the fluidity of movement and attacking looked very enjoyable. In particular I really like the way mobility skills seem to feel, the mage's default blink, the unnamed dash from the seasons update, and the dash/teleport of the combat update all look like they will be fun to just use and play around with. Movement in particular is something I find often times neglected in MMOs, when there is so much potential for fun with movement skills(a MMO I felt did this very uniquely and very well was Age of Wushu), so good job on that end in particular as well.
The gashes on the ground from the swings were subtle but a nice touch. I especially liked how they were hidden by foliage if the sword contacted the ground on grass.
The combat numbers looked much much much better. It would be good to see healing and degen/dot numbers and to know if you can adjust those separately.
Loved the mobs and their animations from spawn to death. Great feel of being ambushed and the unknown danger of the world.
Definitely the right direction.
I really loved this update and expect to see more and more coming from Ashes. You guys are doing a great work.
SA-EU [PT/US]
Healer/Support player since 2009.
Aion, D&D, Path Finder, Ragnarok, Tibia, Tera, GW2, WoW, Albion, BDO, AA, AA:U, Lost Ark, C9
DMs always open.