the test of combat that you showed is not satisfactory:
we don't see the interface, we don't see any skils, from what was shown I deduce that the combat was only in action mode, I'm quite disappointed because this type of combat is only valid if the number of skils is less than 10, beyond this number we need the mouse to select the spells.
You ask if a game has a good system, I suggest you to test guild wars 2 its combat mode is correct as well as the management of the quantity of skils, teso has an excellent system but it would not be viable with 30 skils.
next time i'd like you to describe the chosen battle mode, action, tab targeting ? the number of skils ?
On the alpha one the switch from one mode to the other was a failure because the basic commands (cliq mouse) changed, the game was not designed for one mode or the other.
I told you at that time that you had to choose one mode or the other and stick to it and make the game according to the chosen mode for the reasons mentioned above.
this is only my opinion as a player.
thanks for taking the time to read
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Love how this is going, although I'm a little concerned on a few fronts:
- Effectiveness of this style of combat with tab targeting
- Where / when in the animation hits are registered (i.e. in Archeage there was an ability that let you target and charge towards a player - if they used a movement skill in the meantime you'd charge towards their end position - not sure that's possible with this action-focused system)
- Distribution of block / dodge abilities / roll abilities (giving these to all classes really lowers their impact and makes combat a blurry mess)
Overall, love the animation style, but a bit worried we are leaning too far towards action combat and won't be able to get the strategic depth you get with a tab target system.
Something i noticed while watching the combat updated was the wide range of cleave the daggers have. I understand its not finished and subject to change. what are the plans for cleave range of weapons will dual daggers have the same range as a long sword it seems like it shouldn't right if daggers have more attack speed and better motion?
*What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
A melee weapon attack needs at least three senses attention in my book. I need to see the swing, as well as what happens with the swing, I need to hear it as well as the receiving parties results of it and I need to feel it. There will always be oomph to a melee weapon swing, no matter how big or small the weapon.
*Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I feel like I need great visual representation of When I do hit something vs. when I miss. A great example of this would be when the two handed sword was being swung and hit enemies in the video, the weapon swing arc art could change or add color and visual effect for the remaining part of the swing if a hit was registered. I'm not sure if it is possible to track and implement this reliably, but I am guessing there is a way to track hitbox collision and add effects to the art. The sound of the two handed sword I feel needs some work. A sword swung in an echo chamber, indoors, underwater, or outside will sound different from each other swing. It may already be in the game and we didn't get a chance to hear more of it, but the audio from the sword swings sounded like they were all indoors, which if I were to try to describe, it sounded rather muted and short, rather than kind of an open air whoosh like I was expecting from the environment.
*Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I can't say that I've played enough games with manual basic weapon attacks to be able to give good feedback here.
*Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am VERY excited with what was shown for the combat update. I am not super concerned with the design updates, but I am worried a bit for how they will apply this to all of the different weapon types and skins over time.
Been part of this community since 2018 and combat looks so much more promising now, great job IS!
Greatsword animations: 8/10 - Makes melee look weighty and impactful with decent movement potential, wind ups have a good feel in terms of speed, but on release it seems a little too fast/choppy
Dagger animations: 6.5/10 - Looks decent, but transition animation mid combos looks too choppy
VFX (sword, dagger trails etc): 7/10 - Looks good, but easily to get visually bored of in the long run and could cause too many visual confusions in mass scale PvX. Give us option to toggle it off and/or give it to legendary weapons
Audio: 7.5/10 - Great weapon sounds and melee sound weighty/impactful, but can be improved
Suggestion: give weapons a 4 part combo instead of 3. It will make combat look and feel smoother as its heavily animation driven
PS: BIG weapons should lean on the shoulders when standing still and walking/running (excluding idle animation)
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
- That the word "basic" does not become "main". In Alpha 1 we were spamming the basic attack so much, that it felt like "this is 90% of all the fighting in this game". Yes, i understand that this had technical reasons and was far away of what we will have in the future....but.....i just hope that all the other talents we get through leveling will get a far bigger part timewise in the endgame than the basic attack (at least 70% talents and special attacks and only 30% basic attacks), because lets be honest: spamming that one key all the time gets extremely boring after a week or two.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- No, it looks great so far. Lets wait and see how more of this will look like, so that we have more of it to compare with each other. I think then we will have more ideas what could be adjusted.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- No, i dont remember playing any game that concentrates much on the basic attacks. They mostly concentrate on all the other abilities and special attacks.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
- I am very excited about such active gameplay with dodging and that fast evasion backwards.
- What i am concerned about at the same time is how this will interact with other classes and other weapons. Can every weapon dodge such a melee attack with a twohander? Even a small casterstaff or a potion launcher? Or how about dodging a big hammer with a bow? What else can you dodge? An arrow? A Spell? If yes, how does a bow dodge a fireball? Thinking about all these variables opens a gate for many questions. I wonder what your path on this topic will be.
This is just my concerne, not critique, because what i saw until now gets better and better every monthly update. I love it.
Loved the update. 2 points that I really liked are:
Speed/Movement - Attack speed, difference between light & heavy weapon speed and full control of the character movement seemed on point. I think that even the 'slowest' weapons should feel fast enough and you achieved that.
No stagger when getting hit - Staggering might feel good in small scale fights, but just doesn't scale well in big pve or pvp fights, unless you start adding mechanisms like stagger immunity, which make the combat inconsistent.
I love the new basic attacks, and the abilities are very visually pleasing. The hammer strike was nice, and we saw a cool version of the classic spin2win.
My main feedback would be to change or remove the yellow blur visual effects from the greatsword basic attacks. They are a bit too flashy for basic attacks in my opinion. Personally, I liked the silver/gray blur effects the dagger's basic attacks had since they appeared much less distracting whereas the silver blur seemed more fitting to the weapon and animations.
Things I liked:
- The sound design
- The attack animations
- Active block was shown by Steven a couple times (he also confirmed dodging, which is great! I hope dodging will be available to any class/spec and it won't be only available to some classes)
- The abilities shown
- The font of dmg numbers (this might sound silly to some but to me it matters)
Things I didn't like, or could use some improvement
- I don't really have anything to stand out as a negative. it could use some polish but I know this is a work in progress. I also hope that perfect block (aka parry) will be a thing in the future. That would not only make tanking a lot more interactive and fun, but would also increase the skill ceiling (room for improvement).
I overall really like the direction, and the improvement compared to previous iteration(s) is very noticeable!
Very excited for the future of this game.
I really liked the combat animations. I especially liked the impact decals on the ground from the greatsword! More effects like this in game would definitely be a nice touch. The scrolling combat text is nice as well. Especially with options to alter how the info is displayed. I do prefer more tab target style combat with less active block and dodge. I am not a fan of crosshair style skillshot like combat. Great stream today all! The game is shaping up nicely!
Off to a great start and much improved over the previous iterations.
Too fast and floaty
The speed for the 2H sword seemed a bit too fast and still floaty for a slow weapon. I understand not wanting to be stationed and rooted while performing basic attacks but this seemed way too fast and inconsequential.
Attack cone too big
Related to that, the cone of attack seemed way too big, covering a large degree of the forward facing part of the character and thus made it seem like it lacked directionality, hitting everything in sight. The game is supposed to be about risk and reward and it doesn’t appear at least from this demo that skills in dodging and avoiding attacks would be rewarded properly if with a swing you hit everything in sight.
Animation issues
The dagger speed seemed off and some of the animation was wacky (e.g. whirlwind with daggers?).
Related to that, while mostly the individual attack animations seemed fine for an early pass, the transition between them at times seemed choppy and didn’t always mash well.
Additional points
The mobs pathing and how they bunched up to attack the character seemed odd. They were all trying to get in front and face Steven but if they were from the side, they approached in an odd way.
I really hope this doesn’t turn into inconsequential mob stacking and mowing down. Rounding up 10 mobs and never worrying about dying goes against the whole risk and reward mantra and makes the gameplay meaningless. Hopefully this was all just for showcasing reasons.
I made a big stink last year and wrote a bunch of detailed forum and reddit posts on how to correctly implement basic attacks with 360 rotating characters using WASD, camera relative input, root motion, and attack direction changing. Seeing today's stream was a massive relief, as it looks like the team basically implemented my advice down to the tee, and then even made it a bit better by blending splitbody motion. I know the team probably arrived to that solution on their own without noticing my posts, but I couldn't be happier. Seeing Steven attack towards the camera with his great sword while being carried along by the root motion of his attack animation was indescribably satisfying. It's everything I want in a combat animation system. Maximum comfort.
Thank you for making a combat animation system that's worthy of the vision of the game.
My only concern is that as good as this animation system is, is that it will compromise strategic depth by nature of emphasizing basic attacks. I think functionally, in terms of animation/root motion/camera controls/rotation/split body, the character controller should work exactly like you have created it, but basic attacks should not exist as a viable way to deal damage. They are a strategic deadzone that basically turns RPGs into action games. I would like to see Intrepid consider ditching basic attacks in favor of a small set of abilities with lower cooldowns, and then freeing up Mouse Left Click for regular mouse interaction instead of executing a basic attack.
Either way, I can tell the movement looks comfortable to the point that I will enjoy the playing game for long periods of time.
Noticeable difference in weapon weight during combat.
Varying animations in relation to player movement direction.
Overall direction of combat in comparison to last combat showcase.
Dislike
Swing of larger weapon feels a bit rushed. The beginning of the animation and the butt end of it seem great, it's the in between of the animation that feels unnaturally fast. (For example: Spiderman No Way Home where Andrew Garfield saves MJ, the landing was unnaturally fast. The animation could have been slowed down a bit.)
Weapon trail particles were a bit distracting and took away from the swing animation.
When two handed sword was being held out of combat, I could not visibly tell that it was a massive weapon from the back. At times it looked like a rapier more than a claymore. I understand perspective, just an observation.
Overall I am EXCITED for what's to come and have full confidence in the team and know my expectations will be met and exceeded!
P.S. Damage number skins (cosmetics) might be fun ie. themes, fonts, abbreviations (turning "12,345" to "12.3k")
Overall, very pleased with these massive improvements. I have absolute confidence that you all will deliver a fantastic world for us to continue breathing life into for years to come!
A few areas I feel could improve:
- The animations for both weapons, but especially those with the sword, seemed choppy, and those stutters drew me out of the experience quite a lot.
- Personally, I feel that the “heavier end” of the spectrum could be a little bit heavier. I’m imagining the demonstrated swing speeds / directional attack animations being carried out as shown with a big two handed hammer, and it doesn’t feel quite right. I know Steven said you have to draw the line somewhere for PvP mobility, so I understand that reasoning, but yeah. A little more effort taken to swing that bad boy around would look a little more immersive IMO.
- The FX for the weapon attacks were cool, and I loved that ultimate hammer slam effect, but I think they could definitely be toned down by at least a quarter. Imagining those effects times several hundred during sieges makes my brain hurt.
- The dodges / gap closers seemed unusually quick, like the py’rai in the video was The Flash or something. I think they should be slowed down just a smidge to make them look at least somewhat realistic, otherwise everyone in the game just starts to look like a bunch of anime characters zipping around with vapor trails. Either that, or lean into the magic explanation and actually make people shadow-step or something. Needs to be more one or the other, I think.
- Blocking attacks needs to stagger a little bit (even if just in animation) to give it some impact.
- Stronger footstep sound effects would be a nice touch for combat moments.
- As to Steven saying he doesn’t want different abilities for different weapons, but also wants every class to be able to use every weapon - that’s how you end up with silly animations like the dagger wielder calling down a massive light hammer. It just doesn’t work as well visually. So just keeping in mind that some boundaries or visual adjustment in that area depending on weapon type / class / ability set might be worth considering.
Again, excellent overall demonstration. Looking forward to seeing more!
I think combat is going in the right direction, though I do see a few issues here.
Issues I witnessed:
●Neither the player or mob react to/get staggered by heavy attacks, I think adding a temporary stagger effect for both sides makes the combat feel more impactful.
●The basic attacks for the Greatsword are too fast, it almost seems it's as fast as the dagger which makes the sword appear weightless. I think decreasing the speed by at least 15-20% would go a long way.
●When blocking, the player should still feel the impact of the attacks which seemed to be non-existent here.
●I'm hoping the Dash skill we saw isn't replacing the Dodge roll from earlier
WHAT I LOVED:
●The general direction combat is going for basic attacks
●The environmental effects caused by the basic attacks from the greatsword.
The affects looked great and I loved everything except I thought as the slowest weapon in the games the great sword was just a little too fast. I personally think it should be slower even though some people would think that is clunky there are so many other weapons that the heaviest should be specifically clunky because it weighs a lot. The daggers felt just right. For the basic attacks I think they should also play into some buffs in your skills like lowering the cool down on some or if you do a skill after a basic attack then the power increases so basic attacks become more necessary in combat and less of filler attacks. I really like the effects and everything and I believe you in Intrepid will find out the perfect feel for all weapons, but just please make these amazing looking basic attacks more than just filler. Your skill bar has looked pretty big like ten skills so you can't do it through very little skills so you need basic attacks. The other way would be for basic attacks to do some damage (not too much because the real big damage should leave that to skill shots) and have them affect your skills somehow. (through a passive that after a basic attack the next skill does 10% more damage. This passive would have a cooldown of ten sec.)
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
For melee, I love weighty animations and "feeling" the impact when I attack enemies (the SFX, VFX, and cracked ground effects were a great attention to detail).
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I think, for the two weapons I saw, everything is great! The only thing that would make it better is if the enemies had reactions to being hit (although this is likely already in the works since everything is WIP).
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
SW Jedi: Fallen Order does the animations, deflections, impacts, and VFX really well with the lightsaber combat. Reviewing gameplay from that and today's video showcase, I definitely notice that the broadsword Steven was using seemed much heavier - which is spot on in terms of impact and collision!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am really interesting in seeing more weapon types! The rooted/controlled hybrid approach is something that I would expect from a single player RPG which, in my opinion, is a huge plus! I don't know what to expect with the ranged weapons, but I look forward to seeing that as well! Once combat has been fleshed out, I look forward to finally determining which class combination I'd want to play!
I don't have much time (if any) to post here due to my work schedule, but I hope to give more feedback and participate more in the forums in the future! Keep up the amazing work!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Vaknar
I was going to ask you if the Combat Demo showcased Fighter.
Didn't seem to be abilities I remembered for Tank.
Finally, found the confirmation: Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) Class Kit.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd like to see differentiation between the weapons to show off their strengths and weaknesses somehow and be less of a cosmetic difference in combat for rp purposes. Seeing a pair of daggers summon a hammer attack is odd, even for the sword it still seems out of place.
That Hammer is a Fighter Active Skill. And it is basically a magical attack. Doesn't matter what weapon is used.
I think the Weapons Skills wil be showcased in a future Dev Livestream.
The affects looked great and I loved everything except I thought as the slowest weapon in the games the great sword was just a little too fast. I personally think it should be slower even though some people would think that is clunky there are so many other weapons that the heaviest should be specifically clunky because it weighs a lot. The daggers felt just right. For the basic attacks I think they should also play into some buffs in your skills like lowering the cool down on some or if you do a skill after a basic attack then the power increases so basic attacks become more necessary in combat and less of filler attacks. I really like the effects and everything and I believe you in Intrepid will find out the perfect feel for all weapons, but just please make these amazing looking basic attacks more than just filler. Your skill bar has looked pretty big like ten skills so you can't do it through very little skills so you need basic attacks. The other way would be for basic attacks to do some damage (not too much because the real big damage should leave that to skill shots) and have them affect your skills somehow. (through a passive that after a basic attack the next skill does 10% more damage. This passive would have a cooldown of ten sec.)
Sorry I forgot to add that the impact of weapons when you hit an enemy(the killing animation was great) needs to be there. The huge hammer after it hit them did nothing which is hard to look past. I am sure this was early combat and you will add it in.(one suggestion I think is necessary is animation not to stagger so you can't permi stun.
I pretty much like all the stuff about combat! Now about the color system and skins, I think you guys should keep it in the same palette as the rest of universe!... Like, It shouldn't be possibly to a guy running around with clothes neon green... and stuff like that.
So my solution to that, is make some presets...
I just thought I would throw this in here - I was noticing a small disconnect in the attack animations, and realized on the 2H sword attacks I wasn't actually able to understand what was happening in some of them. I slowed the video to x 0.25 speed and noticed it seemed to be skipping during the animation and it was disrupting what my eyes were following.
Excited for the polishing.
On another note, It seems a bit jarring to watch a quick agile dagger fighter to light up a giant blazing hammer of light on their foes. I hope the classes will have more theme'ing as they are developed
This was my first stream I attended and boy am I glad it was this one. MAN! That hammer skill was beautiful! Every time Steven hit that cooldown, I couldn't contain my excitement.
That aside, I dare say the two-handed sword's attacks felt too fast. If it really is the heaviest/slowest weapon class, then it's a bit too quick. Speed was rather comparable to the daggers, and they're supposed to be the lightest/fastest.
I liked how the animations look, but I'm at odds with how the upper body sort of freezes for a second mid-swing. Idk if that's intended or just a product of it being a work in progress. I don't hate it, but assuming it's intended, I at least don't think it should underscore every hit. Might be interesting if it occurred during something like a crit, though.
The options about UI didn't appeal to me much because I'm always overwhelmed by that sort of thing, but in no way do I think a comprehensively customizable UI is a bad idea. It's great!
I was most excited by the question about the ORB TANK, though. I've been having heated debates with a few members of a discord group about it. I genuinely felt that weapons couldn't be used by all classes, because some of the combinations made no sense at face value. I wasn't sure how weapons worked across different classes, or how a weapon's stats factored in. I started joking about Orb Tank soon after because I believed, of all combinations of class and weapon, a tank wielding an orb would be the least likely to be seen and the most likely to just not work. But Steven said weapons, especially when crafted by an artisan, can be made to benefit any class the artisan chooses, which makes ORB TANK a viable choice! I'm really glad there's genuine, unilateral freedom in how you build your character! No clue how orbs work yet, but still. WOO! ORB TANK!!
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Wizard_BeardMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
it was a great first step in my opinion. course the animations seem to need a bit of polish(not bad by any means) and hits on the player and the mobs didn't seem to have "impact"...
when the player got knocked back by the enemies that looked really floaty and lifeless...like it didn't feel like the player should have gotten knocked back because there was no "impact"...maybe have the player come off the ground a bit more as well during that scenario....
the greatsword seemed a little fast, unless that was meant to represent endgame top tier type of gear kind of thing with haste...we should be slower with the weapons starting out and grow into that speed...
the daggers seemed fine to me, looked good and as i mentioned above about "impact" that shouldn't apply much to the dagger since smaller fast slashes don't feel like they should have much impact...just maybe big stabs should have that affect.
the "weapon skill" like the big hammer thing didn't feel right...things like that need to be looked at...just seems weird using a 2h sword and then swinging a magic giant hammer but the swing with the sword during that was great...ok, now for examples of this...in the video if you are using a 2h sword and you use that attack it should be a large sword effect and maybe have them different attack types...like if you are using a 2h hammer the fx you had during that skill would be fine, although i would like them a bit softer and more "magicky" hard to explain...like the current effect seems like a Green Lantern solid construct...maybe use a light magical "mist" with a more transparent "construct"...ugh i could explain this verbally with you asking questions, but really hard for me to describe it here...if want to discuss it just hit me up on discord @Wizard Beard....oh also on the topic of that skill effect. can the colors of that be changed to accommodate a character's theme? like if i've went a build to make a "dark knight" could those effects be changed to red, purple, shadowy gray/black, etc.?
not sure if the "dash" was a dodge or what, but if it was a dodge and not some kind of just movement specific skill the distance needs to be much shorter...now if it's a movement skill from a tree meant to cover distance i think it's fine.
i know the video didn't cover a lot of these things and was just about the weapon swings and couple of skills, but just wanted to plant the seeds of these thoughts (which you may very well have already thought about, just not implemented or tested yet)
all in all it looked like a really good foundation to build off of...
oh, one more thing, about the little aiming dot...will it be possible to customize it's type and location? like will i be able to move my character a tad to the left of that reticle so it feels more over their shoulder?
Loved it, it was the best route to take and the best direction to step in. All from the way the movement looked to the new mobs and their mechanics. I loved the fact that it is still Hybrid. I believe guild wars 2 has it right and you are just improving upon that and fixing the flaws apart of their system. I think allowed modification to thing's such as camera shake and depth of field will really improve this system as well.
My thoughts on some in the community:
A bit disappointed with how some are acting obviously we know a system won't appeal to everyone. But to think people still truly believe that a game should be only tab targeting... is beyond me. Its 2022. If you want to play a tab targeting only game, go play WoW, or Final Fantasy. I mean really guys are you that stubborn that you can't accept a Hybrid combat that gives you the choice. I feel bad for Steven and Team who have to pick a side in that relation however I do hope they choose and stick with the correct side. I think a lot of WoW players are expecting WoW 2.0 and mad that they can't relive their teenage lives. If this game was tab targeting only not only would it not appeal to the newer audience to MMORPG's it would kill the game. It would be just another game that falls under the large shadow of the games that have been out for years and are using tab targeting.
Finally:
What ashes of creation needs to do, and is doing greatly is carving its own path and sticking to their guns. I love and appreciate how Steven is when it comes to development. He has his plans and he doesn't plan on changing them. His ideas and concepts are wonderful and will lead ashes of creation to a unique spot in the MMORPG category similar to where Guild Wars 2 stands. We can't keep repeating the same destruction of games every other mmorpg does which is try to appeal to one or the other. The one or the other is already out and already better then the mmorpg trying to mimic it. Hybrid is the best option to put ashes of creation in a class of its own. I truly hope that some of the negative feedback doesn't get under Steven or the Teams skin because that is the sole thing that will kill this game. STICK TO YOUR GUT STEVEN, FOLLOW THIS DIRECTION AND BE CONFIDENT. Keep improving and keep being bad ass.
Preface: I mainly prefer tab targeting as I've never had a good time with action type combat but this feels different in a good way, I'm very excited to test Alpha 2 being a QA Engineer
Likes:
Weighted weapon swings, I'm interested to see how this might translate to big bows vs small bows and wands vs staves
Customizability for the UI is choice so thank you
Split body animation is a must, I'm glad I can move freely and quickly while in combat (of course with respect to weighted weapon swings)
Dislikes:
Animation is a tiny bit choppy (again this is just a second pass) and I'm not sure what's causing it
Random:
Rock enemy animation is FANTASTIC, kill me
Riverlands is cute as hell
The background boat was great to see
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DralayMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
This looked really good today it is a massive improvement over what we were seeing a year ago. The fast-paced action style combat is a breath of fresh air and increased my confidence in the project.
Something shown today that is so important to keep in mind going forward is that having player
movement ingrained into using attacks or abilities is essential to making combat feel smooth. As mentioned today the speed at which you move can vary depending on a few factors like how impactful an ability is as well as the weight of the attack but keeping the focus on player movement and fluidity is so important.
Camera settings were mentioned today and I think this is a factor that goes under the radar a lot. Having camera settings that are easy to use and fluid can also make the player experience much better. Personally, I hate non-locked cameras others might like unlocked but having options is great and I hope to see that in the future.
Something that we may see more of later on is how easy it is to weave abilities between auto-attacks, and this also ties into keeping the player mobile and (non-animation locked) as much as possible. Something that might be a good option is especially with the heavier sword having an option to cancel animations and move out of danger this increases the skill ceiling.
Overall This was actually better than I expected I think this was a very smooth showcasing of what combat quality could look like in the future and I think we are all hoping that is the case. While there were minor improvements that could be made with refining the look of effects and animations it was overall really good.
Comments
we don't see the interface, we don't see any skils, from what was shown I deduce that the combat was only in action mode, I'm quite disappointed because this type of combat is only valid if the number of skils is less than 10, beyond this number we need the mouse to select the spells.
You ask if a game has a good system, I suggest you to test guild wars 2 its combat mode is correct as well as the management of the quantity of skils, teso has an excellent system but it would not be viable with 30 skils.
next time i'd like you to describe the chosen battle mode, action, tab targeting ? the number of skils ?
On the alpha one the switch from one mode to the other was a failure because the basic commands (cliq mouse) changed, the game was not designed for one mode or the other.
I told you at that time that you had to choose one mode or the other and stick to it and make the game according to the chosen mode for the reasons mentioned above.
this is only my opinion as a player.
thanks for taking the time to read
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
- Effectiveness of this style of combat with tab targeting
- Where / when in the animation hits are registered (i.e. in Archeage there was an ability that let you target and charge towards a player - if they used a movement skill in the meantime you'd charge towards their end position - not sure that's possible with this action-focused system)
- Distribution of block / dodge abilities / roll abilities (giving these to all classes really lowers their impact and makes combat a blurry mess)
Overall, love the animation style, but a bit worried we are leaning too far towards action combat and won't be able to get the strategic depth you get with a tab target system.
A melee weapon attack needs at least three senses attention in my book. I need to see the swing, as well as what happens with the swing, I need to hear it as well as the receiving parties results of it and I need to feel it. There will always be oomph to a melee weapon swing, no matter how big or small the weapon.
*Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I feel like I need great visual representation of When I do hit something vs. when I miss. A great example of this would be when the two handed sword was being swung and hit enemies in the video, the weapon swing arc art could change or add color and visual effect for the remaining part of the swing if a hit was registered. I'm not sure if it is possible to track and implement this reliably, but I am guessing there is a way to track hitbox collision and add effects to the art. The sound of the two handed sword I feel needs some work. A sword swung in an echo chamber, indoors, underwater, or outside will sound different from each other swing. It may already be in the game and we didn't get a chance to hear more of it, but the audio from the sword swings sounded like they were all indoors, which if I were to try to describe, it sounded rather muted and short, rather than kind of an open air whoosh like I was expecting from the environment.
*Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I can't say that I've played enough games with manual basic weapon attacks to be able to give good feedback here.
*Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am VERY excited with what was shown for the combat update. I am not super concerned with the design updates, but I am worried a bit for how they will apply this to all of the different weapon types and skins over time.
Greatsword animations: 8/10 - Makes melee look weighty and impactful with decent movement potential, wind ups have a good feel in terms of speed, but on release it seems a little too fast/choppy
Dagger animations: 6.5/10 - Looks decent, but transition animation mid combos looks too choppy
VFX (sword, dagger trails etc): 7/10 - Looks good, but easily to get visually bored of in the long run and could cause too many visual confusions in mass scale PvX. Give us option to toggle it off and/or give it to legendary weapons
Audio: 7.5/10 - Great weapon sounds and melee sound weighty/impactful, but can be improved
Suggestion: give weapons a 4 part combo instead of 3. It will make combat look and feel smoother as its heavily animation driven
PS: BIG weapons should lean on the shoulders when standing still and walking/running (excluding idle animation)
- That the word "basic" does not become "main". In Alpha 1 we were spamming the basic attack so much, that it felt like "this is 90% of all the fighting in this game". Yes, i understand that this had technical reasons and was far away of what we will have in the future....but.....i just hope that all the other talents we get through leveling will get a far bigger part timewise in the endgame than the basic attack (at least 70% talents and special attacks and only 30% basic attacks), because lets be honest: spamming that one key all the time gets extremely boring after a week or two.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
- No, it looks great so far. Lets wait and see how more of this will look like, so that we have more of it to compare with each other. I think then we will have more ideas what could be adjusted.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- No, i dont remember playing any game that concentrates much on the basic attacks. They mostly concentrate on all the other abilities and special attacks.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
- I am very excited about such active gameplay with dodging and that fast evasion backwards.
- What i am concerned about at the same time is how this will interact with other classes and other weapons. Can every weapon dodge such a melee attack with a twohander? Even a small casterstaff or a potion launcher? Or how about dodging a big hammer with a bow? What else can you dodge? An arrow? A Spell? If yes, how does a bow dodge a fireball? Thinking about all these variables opens a gate for many questions. I wonder what your path on this topic will be.
This is just my concerne, not critique, because what i saw until now gets better and better every monthly update. I love it.
My main feedback would be to change or remove the yellow blur visual effects from the greatsword basic attacks. They are a bit too flashy for basic attacks in my opinion. Personally, I liked the silver/gray blur effects the dagger's basic attacks had since they appeared much less distracting whereas the silver blur seemed more fitting to the weapon and animations.
- The sound design
- The attack animations
- Active block was shown by Steven a couple times (he also confirmed dodging, which is great! I hope dodging will be available to any class/spec and it won't be only available to some classes)
- The abilities shown
- The font of dmg numbers (this might sound silly to some but to me it matters)
Things I didn't like, or could use some improvement
- I don't really have anything to stand out as a negative. it could use some polish but I know this is a work in progress. I also hope that perfect block (aka parry) will be a thing in the future. That would not only make tanking a lot more interactive and fun, but would also increase the skill ceiling (room for improvement).
I overall really like the direction, and the improvement compared to previous iteration(s) is very noticeable!
Very excited for the future of this game.
Too fast and floaty
The speed for the 2H sword seemed a bit too fast and still floaty for a slow weapon. I understand not wanting to be stationed and rooted while performing basic attacks but this seemed way too fast and inconsequential.
Attack cone too big
Related to that, the cone of attack seemed way too big, covering a large degree of the forward facing part of the character and thus made it seem like it lacked directionality, hitting everything in sight. The game is supposed to be about risk and reward and it doesn’t appear at least from this demo that skills in dodging and avoiding attacks would be rewarded properly if with a swing you hit everything in sight.
Animation issues
The dagger speed seemed off and some of the animation was wacky (e.g. whirlwind with daggers?).
Related to that, while mostly the individual attack animations seemed fine for an early pass, the transition between them at times seemed choppy and didn’t always mash well.
Additional points
The mobs pathing and how they bunched up to attack the character seemed odd. They were all trying to get in front and face Steven but if they were from the side, they approached in an odd way.
I really hope this doesn’t turn into inconsequential mob stacking and mowing down. Rounding up 10 mobs and never worrying about dying goes against the whole risk and reward mantra and makes the gameplay meaningless. Hopefully this was all just for showcasing reasons.
Thank you for making a combat animation system that's worthy of the vision of the game.
My only concern is that as good as this animation system is, is that it will compromise strategic depth by nature of emphasizing basic attacks. I think functionally, in terms of animation/root motion/camera controls/rotation/split body, the character controller should work exactly like you have created it, but basic attacks should not exist as a viable way to deal damage. They are a strategic deadzone that basically turns RPGs into action games. I would like to see Intrepid consider ditching basic attacks in favor of a small set of abilities with lower cooldowns, and then freeing up Mouse Left Click for regular mouse interaction instead of executing a basic attack.
Either way, I can tell the movement looks comfortable to the point that I will enjoy the playing game for long periods of time.
Good stuff.
Dislike
Overall I am EXCITED for what's to come and have full confidence in the team and know my expectations will be met and exceeded!
P.S. Damage number skins (cosmetics) might be fun ie. themes, fonts, abbreviations (turning "12,345" to "12.3k")
A few areas I feel could improve:
- The animations for both weapons, but especially those with the sword, seemed choppy, and those stutters drew me out of the experience quite a lot.
- Personally, I feel that the “heavier end” of the spectrum could be a little bit heavier. I’m imagining the demonstrated swing speeds / directional attack animations being carried out as shown with a big two handed hammer, and it doesn’t feel quite right. I know Steven said you have to draw the line somewhere for PvP mobility, so I understand that reasoning, but yeah. A little more effort taken to swing that bad boy around would look a little more immersive IMO.
- The FX for the weapon attacks were cool, and I loved that ultimate hammer slam effect, but I think they could definitely be toned down by at least a quarter. Imagining those effects times several hundred during sieges makes my brain hurt.
- The dodges / gap closers seemed unusually quick, like the py’rai in the video was The Flash or something. I think they should be slowed down just a smidge to make them look at least somewhat realistic, otherwise everyone in the game just starts to look like a bunch of anime characters zipping around with vapor trails. Either that, or lean into the magic explanation and actually make people shadow-step or something. Needs to be more one or the other, I think.
- Blocking attacks needs to stagger a little bit (even if just in animation) to give it some impact.
- Stronger footstep sound effects would be a nice touch for combat moments.
- As to Steven saying he doesn’t want different abilities for different weapons, but also wants every class to be able to use every weapon - that’s how you end up with silly animations like the dagger wielder calling down a massive light hammer. It just doesn’t work as well visually. So just keeping in mind that some boundaries or visual adjustment in that area depending on weapon type / class / ability set might be worth considering.
Again, excellent overall demonstration. Looking forward to seeing more!
Issues I witnessed:
●Neither the player or mob react to/get staggered by heavy attacks, I think adding a temporary stagger effect for both sides makes the combat feel more impactful.
●The basic attacks for the Greatsword are too fast, it almost seems it's as fast as the dagger which makes the sword appear weightless. I think decreasing the speed by at least 15-20% would go a long way.
●When blocking, the player should still feel the impact of the attacks which seemed to be non-existent here.
●I'm hoping the Dash skill we saw isn't replacing the Dodge roll from earlier
WHAT I LOVED:
●The general direction combat is going for basic attacks
●The environmental effects caused by the basic attacks from the greatsword.
For melee, I love weighty animations and "feeling" the impact when I attack enemies (the SFX, VFX, and cracked ground effects were a great attention to detail).
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I think, for the two weapons I saw, everything is great! The only thing that would make it better is if the enemies had reactions to being hit (although this is likely already in the works since everything is WIP).
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
SW Jedi: Fallen Order does the animations, deflections, impacts, and VFX really well with the lightsaber combat. Reviewing gameplay from that and today's video showcase, I definitely notice that the broadsword Steven was using seemed much heavier - which is spot on in terms of impact and collision!
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
I am really interesting in seeing more weapon types! The rooted/controlled hybrid approach is something that I would expect from a single player RPG which, in my opinion, is a huge plus! I don't know what to expect with the ranged weapons, but I look forward to seeing that as well! Once combat has been fleshed out, I look forward to finally determining which class combination I'd want to play!
I don't have much time (if any) to post here due to my work schedule, but I hope to give more feedback and participate more in the forums in the future! Keep up the amazing work!
I was going to ask you if the Combat Demo showcased Fighter.
Didn't seem to be abilities I remembered for Tank.
Finally, found the confirmation: Weapon Master (Fighter/Fighter) Class Kit.
I think the Weapons Skills wil be showcased in a future Dev Livestream.
Sorry I forgot to add that the impact of weapons when you hit an enemy(the killing animation was great) needs to be there. The huge hammer after it hit them did nothing which is hard to look past. I am sure this was early combat and you will add it in.(one suggestion I think is necessary is animation not to stagger so you can't permi stun.
What about a slider in options where we can fade the intensity or transparency of weapon attacks effects?
For me the effects are bit too high. :-)
Others may like it.
Or do it like Path of Exile and put different skill animations in shop?
So my solution to that, is make some presets...
Keep up with the amazing work!
Excited for the polishing.
On another note, It seems a bit jarring to watch a quick agile dagger fighter to light up a giant blazing hammer of light on their foes. I hope the classes will have more theme'ing as they are developed
That aside, I dare say the two-handed sword's attacks felt too fast. If it really is the heaviest/slowest weapon class, then it's a bit too quick. Speed was rather comparable to the daggers, and they're supposed to be the lightest/fastest.
I liked how the animations look, but I'm at odds with how the upper body sort of freezes for a second mid-swing. Idk if that's intended or just a product of it being a work in progress. I don't hate it, but assuming it's intended, I at least don't think it should underscore every hit. Might be interesting if it occurred during something like a crit, though.
The options about UI didn't appeal to me much because I'm always overwhelmed by that sort of thing, but in no way do I think a comprehensively customizable UI is a bad idea. It's great!
I was most excited by the question about the ORB TANK, though. I've been having heated debates with a few members of a discord group about it. I genuinely felt that weapons couldn't be used by all classes, because some of the combinations made no sense at face value. I wasn't sure how weapons worked across different classes, or how a weapon's stats factored in. I started joking about Orb Tank soon after because I believed, of all combinations of class and weapon, a tank wielding an orb would be the least likely to be seen and the most likely to just not work. But Steven said weapons, especially when crafted by an artisan, can be made to benefit any class the artisan chooses, which makes ORB TANK a viable choice! I'm really glad there's genuine, unilateral freedom in how you build your character! No clue how orbs work yet, but still. WOO! ORB TANK!!
when the player got knocked back by the enemies that looked really floaty and lifeless...like it didn't feel like the player should have gotten knocked back because there was no "impact"...maybe have the player come off the ground a bit more as well during that scenario....
the greatsword seemed a little fast, unless that was meant to represent endgame top tier type of gear kind of thing with haste...we should be slower with the weapons starting out and grow into that speed...
the daggers seemed fine to me, looked good and as i mentioned above about "impact" that shouldn't apply much to the dagger since smaller fast slashes don't feel like they should have much impact...just maybe big stabs should have that affect.
the "weapon skill" like the big hammer thing didn't feel right...things like that need to be looked at...just seems weird using a 2h sword and then swinging a magic giant hammer but the swing with the sword during that was great...ok, now for examples of this...in the video if you are using a 2h sword and you use that attack it should be a large sword effect and maybe have them different attack types...like if you are using a 2h hammer the fx you had during that skill would be fine, although i would like them a bit softer and more "magicky" hard to explain...like the current effect seems like a Green Lantern solid construct...maybe use a light magical "mist" with a more transparent "construct"...ugh i could explain this verbally with you asking questions, but really hard for me to describe it here...if want to discuss it just hit me up on discord @Wizard Beard....oh also on the topic of that skill effect. can the colors of that be changed to accommodate a character's theme? like if i've went a build to make a "dark knight" could those effects be changed to red, purple, shadowy gray/black, etc.?
not sure if the "dash" was a dodge or what, but if it was a dodge and not some kind of just movement specific skill the distance needs to be much shorter...now if it's a movement skill from a tree meant to cover distance i think it's fine.
i know the video didn't cover a lot of these things and was just about the weapon swings and couple of skills, but just wanted to plant the seeds of these thoughts (which you may very well have already thought about, just not implemented or tested yet)
all in all it looked like a really good foundation to build off of...
oh, one more thing, about the little aiming dot...will it be possible to customize it's type and location? like will i be able to move my character a tad to the left of that reticle so it feels more over their shoulder?
Loved it, it was the best route to take and the best direction to step in. All from the way the movement looked to the new mobs and their mechanics. I loved the fact that it is still Hybrid. I believe guild wars 2 has it right and you are just improving upon that and fixing the flaws apart of their system. I think allowed modification to thing's such as camera shake and depth of field will really improve this system as well.
My thoughts on some in the community:
A bit disappointed with how some are acting obviously we know a system won't appeal to everyone. But to think people still truly believe that a game should be only tab targeting... is beyond me. Its 2022. If you want to play a tab targeting only game, go play WoW, or Final Fantasy. I mean really guys are you that stubborn that you can't accept a Hybrid combat that gives you the choice. I feel bad for Steven and Team who have to pick a side in that relation however I do hope they choose and stick with the correct side. I think a lot of WoW players are expecting WoW 2.0 and mad that they can't relive their teenage lives. If this game was tab targeting only not only would it not appeal to the newer audience to MMORPG's it would kill the game. It would be just another game that falls under the large shadow of the games that have been out for years and are using tab targeting.
Finally:
What ashes of creation needs to do, and is doing greatly is carving its own path and sticking to their guns. I love and appreciate how Steven is when it comes to development. He has his plans and he doesn't plan on changing them. His ideas and concepts are wonderful and will lead ashes of creation to a unique spot in the MMORPG category similar to where Guild Wars 2 stands. We can't keep repeating the same destruction of games every other mmorpg does which is try to appeal to one or the other. The one or the other is already out and already better then the mmorpg trying to mimic it. Hybrid is the best option to put ashes of creation in a class of its own. I truly hope that some of the negative feedback doesn't get under Steven or the Teams skin because that is the sole thing that will kill this game. STICK TO YOUR GUT STEVEN, FOLLOW THIS DIRECTION AND BE CONFIDENT. Keep improving and keep being bad ass.
Thank you for coming to Gragis's Ted Talk
~Gragis
The new attack animations with the split body looks really good. I am excited to play this type of combat.
The UI was good, and I like the idea of being able to customize it.
I am looking forward to testing this game
Likes:
Dislikes:
Random:
movement ingrained into using attacks or abilities is essential to making combat feel smooth. As mentioned today the speed at which you move can vary depending on a few factors like how impactful an ability is as well as the weight of the attack but keeping the focus on player movement and fluidity is so important.
Overall This was actually better than I expected I think this was a very smooth showcasing of what combat quality could look like in the future and I think we are all hoping that is the case. While there were minor improvements that could be made with refining the look of effects and animations it was overall really good.