Overall, i think the combat displayed was fantastic. I have 1 complaint that, to me, is a bit of a turn off. To me, the combat seemed almost too fast paced on the characters end. I would like to see the attack speed maybe tuned down to a bit of a slower pace. Maybe its just me but i feel a 2 handed heavy weapon shouldnt swing that fast, even the daggers seemed a bit ultra fast paced for my liking as well, though i know they are obviously going to be faster than a 2 handed weapon. I genuinely think a tune down in attack speed/pace would be aloy better, for my tastes at the very least. Another small gripe is the yellow/goldish effects off the swinging. Very happy even through my personal preferences on the speed. Thanks Steven and the rest of the team for all you guys are doing.
I found the attack speed of the great sword today (06/30/2022) to be lower compared to alpha1 (I would like it to be at least 2x faster), the ground splitting animation causes a delay in the fluidity of the basic attack, making it seem like it slows down at the end of the sequence of basic blows, I think it doesn't need realism in a fantasy mmorpg, that simulate fatigue at the end of a blow execution, one thing I hope is freedom to customize the character's status, because not Being able to distribute my stats manually is very irritating and it's discouraging to be held hostage by random stats of equipment (armors, accessories, etc), however intrepid is to be congratulated for the development.
Steven said for those who have been following for a few years to please comment where it was and where it is and is it the right direction?
I would say yes, my friends and I had a watch-party and we were in love with what we saw, the abilities teased look great, the heaviness of the Greatsword was pretty much there. As far as the action combat goes, yes this is a MASSIVE improvement and you guys are headed in the right direction.
Everyone is going to tell you what they liked, and I will REITERATE that you guys did an AMAZING job and I am so impressed, so cool seeing it all 3 years later. So, let me tell you what I fear with this direction.
All of the abilities shown were action combat abilities, I am very curious if this is the direction it is headed (more action combat oriented, 75/25.) and is there any room for tab target, and how does it balance? What about ranged basic attacks? - If I have to aim at a dashing-zipping target, and I hit my shot, I'm going to do big damage, right? What are the balance implications, how can you make something higher skill curve (aiming bow shots on a moving target) as powerful and as strong as the guy who just dashed in three times and is spamming left click?
These are all surface level thoughts, I am very excited for the future and the copium is real. My friends and I have been drooling for a new mmo for 10 years and we are waiting for the day.
Edit: Seeing something, and playing something, are two incredibly different experiences. I am not just saying this because I want to play Alpha 2, but I think when you guys are ready you should really let a spot test open and let people get in there and swing stuff around and get a feel for it - a lot was riding on you guys today and you absolutely nailed it.
Everyone seems to be WAY too positive here, so I have to take this upon myself I guess.
Before I start the rant, here's the legit feedback:
The differences between the greatsword and the daggers are basically non-existent. The heavier weapons need to be far slower, which also needs to impact the animation speed of the abilities where it makes sense (for example the magical overhead swing shouldn't be impacted, but the spinning should).
There is basically 0 feedback from the player and the enemies on getting hit. For daggers that's maybe fine, but again, not for the heavier weapons.
Also, there needs to be feedback on the weapon itself after a hit. This is most commonly done by slowing down the swing while inside of the enemy's hitbox, but not regaining 100% of its speed afterwards. This, yet again, needs to differ between the weapon types.
The animations look like the player character is the most unskilled greatsword wielder in existence. I highly recommend you do actual research on historical martial arts. I know "games aren't real dude", but if you want to be better than everyone else, then you can start with this, because 99.99% of developers completely ignore this.
The last point, which is not really a combat related thing, but. If you know that you're going to be showcasing something particular, please just work on it a little bit more. There are GLARING issues here that don't take much work to fix. Stop hiding behind the "work in progress" label. People don't care. People want to see a good showcase and preaching about "work in progress" for 15 minutes before you make a single basic attack creates a feeling that the showcase will suck.
Now for the rant:
Guys... You're seasoned developers and designers. It has been almost a year since we last saw the combat. Why is the greatsword like 90% as fast as the daggers? A toddler could point this out.
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but holy moly. When you have a presentation coming up, why not actually prepare for it. Adjust the animation speed is like 1 man day worth of work. You know Steve will showcase the greatsword mainly, why not work on the f***ing greatsword? This is why so many people don't take this project seriously. This is legit amateur behaviour. You can spend 15 minutes on the stream saying "please don't make fun of this, it's work in progress", nobody cares. If I come to a showcase meeting with obviously unpolished work, even if it's work in progress, my boss is OBVIOUSLY not going to be happy. Why do you think you can get away with this? "muh work in progress" will not save you anymore. This game is in development for like 6 years or so, and from the looks of it will remain in development for like another 2+ years.
Customizable damage numbers are cute and all, but I would rather have a polished combat showcase without them. That is really not a feature that makes or breaks the game. I have no idea why are your priorities so backwards, but the team leaders need to look into the mirror for a second.
There are so many things wrong with this showcase. Steve please for the love of god, when you say 50 times "guys this is work in progress", that automatically makes people think the showcase will f***ing suck. Stop hiding behind that label. The worst thing is the combination of those disclaimers AND the showcase actually not being very convincing.
I'm seriously concerned about a lack of a person who has an eye for polishing things in the combat team. There problems are not hard to fix, and definitelly aren't hard to spot. You've got a good base, but if you can't build off of it properly, the game will suck.
Greatsword
-In my opinion the normal attack looks a bit floaty, which could still have some added weight to the start and end of the 3 hit combo, foot stance could also help here.
- The whirlwind skill feels like it lasts a bit too long, I think 3 spins with the upward swing is more than enough, the longer it lasts the more boring combat with it feels. The very last upward swing needs a heavy step forward into a very heavy looking upward swing(like in elden ring with ASH OF WAR: STAMP (UPWARD CUT))
- The hammer slam skill, should come from over the shoulder from the side with a heavy step forward, it does not look good completely vertical, looks very static and lacks any depth to the animation.
Dagger
- A 4 part normal attack(with the same time frame of the 3-hit) Would look much nicer, the 3 hit looks very clunky especially between the 2nd and 3rd hit. a swing from left/right/left/then both (or vice versa) I think would feel a little better and since heavy weapons have 3 hits, having a faster 4 swing combo with daggers makes sense.
Normal Attacks
- A side moving dodge/dash/spin attack when moving sideways would help combat look less static and add a bit of animation while moving sideways and attacking, the movment distance can just be the same as if you were just moving normally and is aesthically pleasing but also adds depth and feeling to movement as a whole.
Other
- A slider for weight of attacks would be a great idea that was suggested in the video, which can really change user interface and how all different people want to play and how they like to play.
Pro's to this month
- The sound queues to monsters being aggro'd is perfect. 10/10
- The way monsters are hiding and there isn't a million of them on screen as you run around is a really good take on how things should be done in any game and how I visioned how nature etc. should be. 10/10
- Mount's and monsters again look absolutely amazing. The earth elementals are AWESOME. 10/10
- Characters look great and I can't wait to spend days in the character creation. 10/10
- Crafter's making the best gear and not being made redundant by a randomly added dungeon or raid. 10/10
- Progress of combat is monumental, still needs some work but it is definitely heading in the right direction 7/10
LOVED IT! Can’t wait to see more but the bits we got to see I really enjoyed. The animations for abilities looked incredible. And the detail to the environment when attacking was very impressive.
Really love the direction you've taken for it. I don't mind the flashy spell effects on the attacks as it's a fantasy game afterall and who knows, that might be something to customise with various enchants on the weapons or something like that. Great baseline for basic attacks and very much looking forwards to seeing how those animations weave with class abilities.
Would be interesting to know what mix of basic attack vs class ability damage you plan for an average rotation break down. For example, if the basic attack makes up 60 or 70% or more of our characters damage, then I can see some RSI setting in and people wearing out Q keys on a monthly basis.
Guys... You're seasoned developers and designers. It has been almost a year since we last saw the combat. Why is the greatsword like 90% as fast as the daggers? A toddler could point this out.
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but holy moly. When you have a presentation coming up, why not actually prepare for it. Adjust the animation speed is like 1 man day worth of work.
But you ARE being an asshole? You didn't offer anything constructive you literally just word vomited Insults for multiple paragraphs, are you sure polish takes one day of work? Are you an Engineer / Designer? Why haven't you applied?
only thing i didnt like is that mobs still hit you after you already dashed away. Same happens in super old tab target games all the time. However i hope thats just a hitreg desync thing you can fix on the line
This was probably the one stream you have done which left with me with more questions! I also have been discussing with other people which has given me other food for thought but here goes:
Overall - I would say I am feeling positive about the showcase. It looks much closer to what I think the majority wanted and the weight in some cases is there and it looks great. The UI stuff was actually arguably the most faultless part of the video (second only to that ship getting closer and closer each video! Naval video next month *cough*?).
Pros
I actually like the general speed of the Greatsword. I don't know how much slower you really want it, as we don't know what kind of damage numbers to expect. If this is going to be the slowest weapon in our arsenal, then perhaps it's about right. I am not really sure how slow I want it!
The dash looked pretty cool. I don't know if it felt too quick, or just right. I would have actually liked to have a showcase with two players fighting each other, as we would get to not only see it from a player perspective but from the perspective of receiving the attack (which given the PvP element, I feel is something we should be seeing simultaneously.
The directional animation overall is solid. It's nice that the effort has gone into that so we have full freedom of movement.
The UI section was IMO standout. Love the flexibility you are giving and given you have had some newish recruits I am certain that the results are going to speak for themselves.
Cons
It wasn't always the case, but the speed of the dual dagger combo seemed to vary. When you didn't have an enemy in front of you, the timing was just about perfect. But when you were attacking an enemy (possibly when moving forward) - the movement of lifting the daggers up, to cross slashing them down, *seemed* a little stiff/robotic. But when you were stationary the movement was slower and it looked better. It's possible this happens in a particular motion/axis but it looked better stationary than in combat.
General consensus seems to be that the yellow lines in the 2h sword animation are a bit much. I need a bit more information to really have an opinion - such as how much of our damage will come from basic attacks (given that we have a weapon talent tree) - and how much from abilities? In games like WoW melee damage can be very low, 5-15% - and also what kind of ability cooldowns are we looking at? If I knew what % of damage the sword is inflicting of my arsenal, I would have an idea of how I think it should look. What I might suggest similar to the daggers like others have said, just have a "wind" effect of the sword cutting through the air, grey animation a bit softer.
I don't know if our perception of audio was because we had a voice over, but I agree that there are some areas it can be improved. With the greatsword (at risk of sounding like that friends episode) - we have more of a "vwhish, vwhish" - but really with a big heavy sound you want a "whooosh, whooosh" - a deeper sound to carry that weight and the idea it's a slow but heavy weapon. Perhaps we could slow down the 2h a little bit to help accentuate that impact.
Continuing on Audio - agree with others we need a bit more receptiveness when monsters die - perhaps we could have "death noises" for types of monsters that can be used i.e. rock monster? Rock noise. Plant? Plant noise. I would want all "bosses" to have a unique one if possible but it doesn't really matter so much.
Feedback from monsters for hits. I am not sure if for an MMO we want to limit the stutter effects when getting hit by weapon attacks/monsters, but the impact of the hit was definitely missing a resulting impact on the monster. Whether it be a small visual with a sound, I am trying to limit how much "animation budget" is needed to have a reaction from every monster. And we really need to know all the systems with attacks that are going to be in place. New World had a stagger system, is this something you will have? If not, I don't really want micro stutters in place. And given we will probably have more abilities than New World, I don't think we necessarily need their system given basic attacks will have its own tree with modifications that we still don't know about.
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Questions for you:
Dash - was that an ability, was it baseline for all classes (with different animations?). If it's an ability, is it an example of something that can be augmented like the blink? Did it have charges on a cd, or does it use a stamina bar system? Is it an iFrame? (I don't play enough action games to have an opinion on this others could chime in better).
Block system - assume it will use some sort of stamina bar? Will the bar be shared with dash or will they have their own resource? With blocking, how do you change its modifiers? I.e. at baseline I would expect a shield to have superior blocking, i.e. I can block for longer, I also mitigate more damage. I would expect weapons to "parry" rather than "block" and be mechanically slightly different/weaker.
Then, how do we further modify? "Waterfall stats" which make our block/parry more effective? Or is it a case that we can get more of the "stamina" resource for our character?
it would be good if the 1h/shield weapon skill tree could branch into more offensive/defense options but not push you into one OR the other. Find a way for people to mix up offensive/defensive talents. make block more effective, allow block to also effect spells at a weaker effect, but maybe not at all by default (depending on balance, maybe spells will need to be blockable).
Since abilities are CLASS related, but weapons are usable for anyone. Will animations for class abilities be changed depending on your weapon choice? We saw the dagger using a huge swing animation which looked a bit out of place. And leading on to that, will abilities actually CHANGE depending on the weapon? I.e. will daggers have a smaller range aoe, perhaps higher damage output?
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Action/Tab - I know that you kind of worked around using the exact words, but when you were talking about us being happy with your "design direction" I feel like this is what you were asking. I personally think that your choice to call this the "Basic Melee Weapon Attack" video is telling that there will be differences between melee/ranged options. There is a clear divide between action/tab but the saving grace was always you saying that there will be a mix of tab or action. The community really does need to know even conceptually, where the current direction is going to be leading towards.
To give an example, if I were to be a bow user, am I going to have to be good at fps games to use the bow i.e. I need to have fairly good aim with all my basic attacks, or will you use a tab-styled lock on explicitly for basic attacks for ranged weapons? It's very difficult to miss the cone attacks of the melee in that kind of range so in a way I understand why you can have that be Action style. I do feel that as a less skilled player myself, in a game like WoW I can play hunter and be less skilled than a skilled player, but at least I am not at a mechanical disadvantage just in terms of aim.
If you could at least have a black and white answer for the community on how you are balancing weapons/skills in terms of what will use Tab/Action even conceptually - I think you will at least give people an answer they are eager to get.
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I just want to close off - this seems like there is more criticism but I actually really liked this showcase and felt a lot better than I make out. It's easy to say something is good. But I think if we can answer a few of the questions that have come from this showcase then it will further show how receptive you guys are to feedback; so honestly just good job everyone on the work the game is really fleshing out.
Imo you nailed the animations even when they seem not to be done yet (sword seemingly teleporting between swings / missing fps) i really liked the animations maybe i am the only one who thought that but the hitting animation of the GS looked like they were out of the game Hades and i really loved their style.
customisation is key and i am so happy that you are willing to give this key into players hands.
the only thing i didnt like was the block mechanic i am really worried about its place in an mmo and think it isnt the right way to go.
At last unreleated to the combat huge compliments to the people that designed the Golems from appareance > animation they were just soooo amazing thanks for that stream and your hard work.
Thank you very much for the update. It looks so good already and I love the improvements you made.
Just one thing bothers me a little bit:
- While showcasing the attack it looked like every attack has like this colorized blink animation. With the big sword it hat this yellow/orange color. I wonder why though? Especially with the attack from above the head down it kinda was too much visible for my taste. However this might be subjective.
Skimmed through a few posts, so may have obviously been already covered but here goes.
I think it's a step in the right direction, but still needs some work/polishing. I know this is just a first pass, and will be worked on, so not worrying too much about it.
- Greatsword attack animation seems a bit too fast for heavy swings. Especially the cyclone spin attack. Would probably be better to slow them down by a third, or maybe even half. If quick. medium, and strong attacks are to be a thing in the game, as mentioned during the live stream presentation, it is currently too fast for the great sword. Tera had some great animations that made everything have a feel of weight and impact which was great, might want to use the slayer animations as a reference point for the speed. The attack animation reveal today was on the right track that's for sure. But needs some tweaking.
- Hope for some more variation in the dagger attacks, as it's way too repeatable, need a couple more animations weaved in to make it more fluid and pleasing to look at. ATM, my brain constantly notices the repeating 3 swipes in a negative manner. Know it's early pass, but hope this is on the books.
-. The animations for both are a bit clunky in certain aspects. If you play the youtube video at .25x, You will notice the animation literally freezes for a several frames, then picks up again, or even teleports to a different position in a unnatural manner. There isn't a smooth transition between them, I knew something was weird when I watched the dev update live, watching the youtube vid at slow speeds confirmed the results.
I know it's an early pass, and this will hopefully get sorted out, but wanted to bring it up just incase, as some can miss it easily...
- I know it's a WIP, but hope block has some weight to it. Right now it doesn't affect the character model at all,
would be nice to see the upper body absorb the weight of frontal attack, have their arms compress a little, etc. Probably jumping the gun here, as its most likely on the docket. But would love to see an absorption of force, which can also be applied to shield blocking.
Conclusion-
Overall, step in the right direction. I am a bit sad at the fact there won't be race specific animations, as an old fan of Lineage 2 from back in the day, and Steven drawing big inspiration from it, was hoping for it to be implemented. It added a very nice tough to the feel for Lineage 2, although I understand why it's not...As it would be a lot of work, especially with the separate kinematics between lower and upper body. Hoping this will eventually get added on though, as I think it's a very nice touch....But not a deal breaker if it isn't, great progress this month.
One thing Lineage 2 did very well, was execute successfully on immersive combat in a point and click mmo with very basic combat systems. The sound was impeccable, the attack animations were satisfying, sounds for basic attacks were impactful, and critical hits gave you a sense of weight and satisfaction. Tera on the other hands succeeded in great action combat, great weight, and an overall enjoyable experience (Too bad the game had nothing else to offer). I'm just hoping that Ashes finds a nice semblance between the two.
I do hope that the combat doesn't follow a bdo'esque style. It was just too fast paced, and there was no weight to certain aspects. Yes the movement felt good, at the expense of making it too fast paced and annoying for PVP. It did have great transitional movement through attacks which felt good, but the combat was so fast paced it was impossible to add any weight to the finishing animation, as well as upon the target you hit...Just a cluster f of movement without an impact on both sides. Was literally just being hit with a swing of a weapon and dying, without any feeling of impact.
Basically what I'm saying. Hoping Ashes can follow a direction that pulls from what made L2 and Tera successful in their overall presentation of combat....While pulling a tiny bit of inspiration for BDO. I saw that inspiration today in the teleport movement, and the transitional movement during auto attacks, which was good....Just hope it isn't pushed further to emulate BDO, as that combat did have problems imo.
Here's to crafting out a nice balance, and making something that feels polished in all regards, and not just a few areas like the games mentioned above. I do hope for some combat skills that marry rooted movement + sudden movement. Such as a dagger animation similar to L2 for deadly blow. Would picture it as rooting yourself for one second during a wind up animation, then small forward burst of movement throwing all the characters weight and direction to a dagger thrust, propelling them forward and making up for the rooted time + a meter or so. Would be a real nice touch.
Got so many combat ideas for skills floating around in my head...lol.
The only thing I really noticed that felt a bit weird was the mob collision. Specifically you can see one of the small rock mobs just slowly rolling while waiting for one of the other mobs to die. I think the best way to go about solving this would either be just not letting mobs collide and letting them stack on each other like in WoW or FF14.
This does also bring up the discussion of allowing mass AOE pulls of mobs to happen, but there are many ways to solve that that isn't letting mobs collide with each other. (mob reset/leash ranges come to mind mainly.) I am of the opinion that it really doesn't matter if you can or cannot pull 100 mobs at a time the only thing that matters is if its challenging. If pulling 2 mobs isn't challenging the player will in most cases look to pull 3 or 4 instead or more. Most people will tend towards pulling as much as they possibly can before they are overwhelmed in a sort of mishmash of trying to maximize efficiency, but also trying to challenge themselves. This is shown in both WoW and FF14 in their dungeon environments.
Now the question is, are mass AOE pulls good, bad, or somewhere in between? My opinion is that they have their place and can be enjoyable, but need to be challenging. If the mass AOE pulls occur because who we are fighting is massively under tuned with no mechanics and isn't a threat at all, that is a problem. However, I do find enjoyment in just massive cleave damage and seeing a TON of numbers flying across my screen in a diablo or lost ark style. So I think there can be a balance struck, massive aoe pulls can (and in my opinion should) be a thing if done right.
Guys... You're seasoned developers and designers. It has been almost a year since we last saw the combat. Why is the greatsword like 90% as fast as the daggers? A toddler could point this out.
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but holy moly. When you have a presentation coming up, why not actually prepare for it. Adjust the animation speed is like 1 man day worth of work.
But you ARE being an asshole? You didn't offer anything constructive you literally just word vomited Insults for multiple paragraphs, are you sure polish takes one day of work? Are you an Engineer / Designer? Why haven't you applied?
Calm down brother.
Good job skipping through the entire first section of the comment to convenietly ignore all the "constructive feedback".
Yes, polish for one weapon type for like 6 different attack animations DOES take 1 day when you know what you're doing. They clearly didn't care enough to do the work, or (what I'm suspecting for a very long time) they don't know what they're doing.
And yes, I am in fact a software engineer. And I did not apply, because unlike you, I already have a job.
This combat update has given me the confidence I needed in the game to become a backer, good direction, keep it up!
The team you have is amazing, I have full faith you will go headstrong into the combat direction that you want, and ignore the heavy bias and negativity around this style of combat.
Love the little things like the footsteps and weapons cut in the ground.
Things I'm looking out for, More reaction from being hit/ humanoid mobs being hit, sparks and recoil from blocking attacks.
The effects on the swings look good, not an overwhelming amount that you can't see what's going on, and not too little where it would be hard to see what you're opponent is doing.
Keep smashing It out, you know what you want and you know what we want!
I find it very difficult to give proper feedback on whether the direction you're with this is good or bad because you did not address the tab-target/action/hybrid issue when showing the video. To me, it heavily looks like pure action combat, which is not what we were promised when you did the Kickstarter.
I do like the active blocking aspect of combat, I despise the idea of having to aim at every enemy for every attack. I want to tell my character which enemy to attack and then he should aim for it by himself.
Apart from that: The visuals were great, the effect an attack has on your movement seems good (but you really can't judge that until you've tried that out yourself), the swing animation for the 2-hander looks a bit off to me, but maybe that has to do with other restrictions like how long the animation may take at maximum. Basically, the 2-handed-swing accelerates too fast and stops too fast.
Here's what a proper 2-handed swing looks like:
(1) your weapon points *away* from the enemy you want to attack.
(2) you drag the sword towards the enemy, you want to attack
(3) you adjust the drag direction slightly, allowing the sword to rotate forwards.
(4) after the impact you drag the sword backward, allowing gravity to help you swing it back, so it points away from the enemy.
The important part is here that you never actively try to rotate the sword, you just drag it behind your hand and let it rotate around your hand based on that.
Having re-watched the animation at x0.025 speed, this is mostly done correctly, except for when you set up the character for an attack. Then he moves the sword as if it was made of paper. Unfortunately, those slower movements are the ones you can recognize best, so I think it's important to find a more fluid motion here.
just my quick thoughts about the melee combat.
The difference between the slow, and fast combat did not feel that great. It might be a different story when playing, but from the visual and audio cues, the sword attacks felt relatively fast. Often, the third attack came really quickly in the video, to the point where I was curious if it was meant to be that fast. Additionally, and I'm not sure if we just weren't getting the full audio, but the sword attacks did not sound that... weighty. It honestly sounded like, at least to me, what I'd imagine a short sword or a one-handed long sword would sound like. Honestly, while I personally do not really enjoy slow weapons, I do appreciate how they are to play and play against. what most notably comes to mind, for me, is in dark souls with the greatswords. The difference in speed and weight between that, and say a dagger, is night and day, and truly gives off the feeling of power and speed respectively.
And regarding the daggers... it felt a bit much. Specifically, it looked like every single auto-attack, the character was giving it his all. A few attacks between them that are maybe slightly slower and more methodical? at least for the animation.
I loved the update, and am honestly excited to see where the game goes. I personally don't usually find myself playing MMORPGs, as I find single-player RPGs a lot more interesting, but this game has caught my attention. If it lives up to the ambition, in the aspects that I am most interested in, I will definitely be playing this after it releases
Love what you have so far, but for me, it would seem to make more sense if the heavy weapon's self-snare was condensed near the end of the swing, as that's when your trying to stop and change the momentum of the heavy weapon.
Also maybe:
Jump attack.
Smooth transition attack after dashing/sprinting.
Enemies get staggered longer when hit with a heavier weapon to sell the weight of it.
Steven's comment on Tab/Hybrid style combat. I will also post this here just to that people coming in/out concerned about the lack of tab in the showcase can be a little reassured.
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DeliaszMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Combat update thoughts :
I need to put emphasis on one thing. Combat in Ashes for me was never the main thing.
It’s important to many players for various reasons, known only for them.
I’ve played many different games with combat mmog, arpg, rpg and for some combat feeling (animation, sound, visuals) was a main theme for other titles it was a mean to get more levels or loot.
I’ve watched a few videos about the differences between TAB, ACTION and HYBRID and I think, I know where are you going now. You need to evolve.
I don’t want to see BDO style action (combos..combos), it’s not a Street Fighter game. I don’t want to see WoW style targeting as well.
Actions without too much manual skill cap + some Tab for CC’s, Heal stuff or active Block from Tab target spell.
It’s an open-world PvP and you need that Action combat freedom to roam inside of the battlefield. I remember L2 PvP where most of the classes would be rooted to the place spamming arrows or spells. Also, you need to do sword aoe damage to people around you not just to one person and others are not affected standing 1 feet from each other.
I like this approach.
Now,
Thank you for an in depth introduction to how the combat system works and how the tools are being created for the title.
Two hand heavy sword was/is:
- Too fast
- When you do spinning attack motion it should start slow and slow down at the end of it. Looks like it’s just a
helicopter effect at the moment
- There is no feeling of this 2h sword is a heave thing beside 2 animations
- I do understand that if you do combo you can gain a momentum and gain speed but at the end you should
be left with sudden “being stuck”
- Hammer skill was nice due need to predict where the enemy will be
- Dodge/Dash skill was making this 2h sword character even more fast
- Basic attack movement lack versatility (front thrust, uppercut, back swing after block)
Daggers:
- Speed is fine for the basic attacks
- Block looks nice but no reason to block so high only (work in progress)
- I love the visual aspect of daggers move that fast to distort visuals
- No stab, no parry or cut
The Two handed sword seems a little too fast, the Daggers seemed about right IMO. Looking forward to seeing how magic weapons, bows and medium melee weapons turn out. So far we have seen damaging abilities but no CC abilities yet.
The thing that bothered me the most was when you get hit by a mob from a direction that isn't the front it still showed the blood splatter decal from the front of the body and you flinched like you were being hit from the front instead of the actual direction you were being hit from. (see 16:54 in the video to see what I mean https://youtu.be/t3LydR8VssY?t=1014 )
Overall I am very happy with the progress since the last combat showcase, the minute details really add to the combat experience (sounds, decals being applied to floor, particle effects, outer vision effects etc...)
I saw a fair amount of people comparing the combat to being somewhere between GW2 and BDO which is pretty good. I don't think it will surpass BDO's level of action combat as that is super in depth. With BDO you had to use key combinations to perform skills, with some skills requiring others to be performed prior to do the next one in the chain.
I believe melee combat being mostly action based is probably the best it can be but ranged weaponry would definitely benefit from single tab target stuff, AOE ground abilities should probably be manually aimed though.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
The feeling of impact & fluidity. When my attacks or abilities truly feel like they have the player character behind the attack it creates a really immersive environment. The fluidity of the attacks for basic weapon attacks is equally important (this also goes for skills later.) Overall I think what was display is quite well done, and I hope the same standards are met for everything beyond the basic attack.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
No, actually. It follows a simple combo string that isn't overexaggerated, and is very fluid.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Most of my time was spent in TERA which had an amazing combat system. Without playing, it seems the combo string follows a similar formula, and I hope it continues to follow this path of Guild Wars, BDO, and TERA (Among others I may not know of.) Again, the combo strings are simple, fluid, repeat well, and feel like they have an impact.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
Depth. While we got to see a few weapon skills I believe, I am worried the skill trees will be very shallow and have few options. I do not want the combat to be focused around basic attacks alone (which I dont believe it will.) The basic attacks were extremely well done, but I dont want that to be the only thing well done. I have really enjoyed the progress of this game so far, but I will always remain critical and skeptical.
Overall I think this update truly snagged my attention more. The combat is promising, and intense, immersive action combat is pretty much the only reason I play. I wish the team the best of luck, and I am quietly awaiting future updates. Well done you guys!
My biggest critique is that the impact of the player’s attacks dont seem to have much stagger on the enemy, and vice versa. I would like to see clearer indications of when Im taking damage and when the enemy takes damage. As it stands the sword just seems to phase through the rock golem.
Reflecting on souls-like combat youll notice that hits stun. Thats extremely valuable for a vision of “kinetic” combat. Even if the stun is extremely brief, limited to a slow, or purely in animation.
I also believe there is room for a slower weapon. The designers mentioned that they are defining the upper and lower bounds of the speed for weapon kits. The greatsword showcased shouldnt be that upper bound of weightiness. I want to see a giant hunk of guts tier steel that can hit somebody with the force of a meteor.
I tend to prefer action over tab target, that being said I've yet to invest my time into an MMO that has caught my eye and isn't tab target.
Overall melee
It is a step towards a better action combat, whether action combat is the right direction for ashes is debatable.
I would like to see parrying, block, evade etc. be static stats rather than a manual action.
The phase of the basic attack combat seems fitting for PVP and PVE, but would love to see alternative slight changes to the phase be tested in alpha 2.
I would like to see a weapon slower and heavier than what we saw with the two-handed sword... Two-handed axes ought to be in the lowest end of the spectrum.
Personally I would've liked to see more of thrust type animations alongside with the swing type animations.
Pros: Approach to player agency, seems to have that feel good feeling when landing hits, appropriate amount of cleave.
Cons: Still frames, animations rough on the edges(understandably they're not the final pass of the animations), lack of variation in attacks especially with daggers.
Two-handed Sword
Pros: Significantly heavier in comparison to daggers, beautiful impact effects, lowered agency due to heaviness.
Cons: Lack of variation (would like to see 1 more attack in the combo, the attack that leaves a mark behind the character should get forwarded into another swing), fluidity in animation transitions.
Daggers
Pros: The footwork, clearly distinct playstyle in comparison to the two-handed swords, cleave amount regardless of the size of the weapon, varying attack animation when walking backwards.
Cons: Lack of combo attacks (Would like to see 5 or more) and variability (left-2, right-2, left, right, finisher into right-2, left-2, right, left, finisher).
Numbers
The more customization the player has the better.
Abilities
Pros: Impactful, hammer attack requires planning and accuracy, a penalty for missing targets or not using the ability selectively.
Cons: Abilities didn't scale to fit with the daggers (I assume the abilities were only tuned for the two-handed sword thus far).
VFX
The basic attack VFX have a cartoon like appearance, personally I would prefer if the VFX were a bit more selective with its flare. The arts done with the VFX is masterful, but in contrast to the game graphics the cartoonish look isn't fitting.
The flashiness of the abilities is appropriate at least for single player gameplay, though I worry about having 40 people casting similar abilities at once.
I am overall impressed by what you showed us yesterday, can't wait to see more!
All basic combat that u've shown i really liked, BUTT
there are 2 things that needs improvement imo:
- Enemy impact on hit, u dont feel like u hit enemies with super heavy sword, u can for sure add some impact effects like particles and sound effects
- When u kill enemy it gets a force from the player direction, imo it would be better to add them force from the direction of the sword. So when u slice horizontaly from the right, enemy's body will fly to the left. It will improve feeling of weight in killing and also imagine how would it look in this spin ability
Everything you showcased with the 2 hand sword was great. Swings, the Cracks in the floor, the animations, there's literally nothing to say negative on it for the most part a GREAT job and you all deserve a Raise
All Dagger animations and autos look great again knocked it out of the park.
--Cons--
2h Sword doesn't sound like a metal weapon unless the plan is to just make it a hit noise (the only real negative I heard/seen.)
Daggers - The third hit seems to much because its like a finisher to save time id just make that a spell animation it looks good.
The Hammer slam ability is for sure to large of a radius in pvp i see that being an issue based on how far it goes and radius of the slam.
-Side Notes-
-I'm guessing blocking isn't completed yet so i have no comments
-I Love the Dodge it makes me think that combat will be fast pace in pvp.
-New World autos feel very good, All of there melee weapons feel good to use and fluent to be honest
-My biggest issue with the "combat" is going to just be the tediousness of it all spamming my left click to do attacks on a boss fight that last 5min-13min (based on wow times) is rough and i would ask that you guys spend the time to test how it feels spamming left click threw dungeons and now long can you do this without crossing an issue or carpal tunnel which ever comes first. Example--
-I played NW in the best West coast company arguably and top 5 melee on the West and within pvp my left clicking didn't bother me but in dungeons after run number 20+ it just felt unnecessary but its my main form of damage so I'm forced to actively focus on the fights that are on farm. Hours in game if it helps 1300 and 500 on beta ALOT of left clicks lmao.
"Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks."
-I would love to see ability animation cancels so for example mid "basic melee swing" I can cast a spell that will stop the animation and cast the spell to allow there to be timings. So the swing lands and i click my button to immediately cancel the rest of the animation and increase my DPS.
-The dash should cancel ability cast/channels to have the ability to dodge damage or gap close instead of finishing an animation that will not do damage.
- With there being a dash/dodge will there be targeted/non target charges for classes and would this lead to, to much mobility?
- ---- BIG FOCUS PLZ---- New world did a TERRIBLE job with unit collision i don't know if you plan to keep unit collision but just take ALOT of time to get this right towards the end. How NW solved this was to get rid of it all together for players which i think is ok in PVE/Towns but in PVP it feels a lot better and i never ran into a situation where i wanted it turned off because i walked into a teammate i LOVE the feeling of teammates being a real entity in Wars/sieges open world battles.
- Don't let charges/blinks be body blocked by teammates its really shitty.
TLDR
You guys did a great job with melee combat overall 1-2 small issues with both weapons.
Look to new world on how to not do unit collision in action combat
Basic melee attacks are to much and should be able to be turned off in dungeons/raids (instanced based)
because its a lot of clicks after farm run number 20+
Dodges/Dashes i hope stays in the game makes combat look fast paced which i would love but maybe reduce the distance so boss mechanics are harder.
2h Sword hammer animation was to big and to wide based on my experiences in pvp.
You guys are the best, Keep it up, What ever you are doing is working, You guys are the Saviors of the MMO genre we all HOPE. Thank you and sorry for the long format. I don't ever do this I'm a lurker.
Sticking purely to what was shown on the June 30th Stream
The weapon attacks are very fluid and gives a good sense of the weapon being used from Heavy to light weapons.
The floating combat text customization is good from what I could see when it comes to dmg being done but I would like to see more about status effects that could be added to the FCT ie. Health, Healing, stunned.
If the targeted mob via tab targeting could have a more clear indicator for any of our casters as the red circle underneath was very hard to see.
The visual effects of the weapons on the ground and in the arc of the swing were very nice but as said above by many others the speed of the attacks seemed to fast.
The split body animation was throwing me off a bit. Some motion in a swing is good for pvp but to much can cause the attack to look unnatural. Also the rush ability that seemed to be a standard motion could be replaced with a roll as it gives to much avoidance when in pvp.
I am looking forward to the ranged combat showcase and ability showcase as I plan to play a Cleric and Ranger type character and would love to see what you guys did with that. Looking forward to Alpha 2+.
1 Swinging feels too light (no weight behind the sword/movement), which means needs a bit more windup and a bit more acceleration in the animation (not full speed instantly, but like a 0.2-0.3 sec ramp time). This also applies to sword position after last swing. If you swing left to right, you can't instantly swing top to bottom next, you need to bring sword up first.
2 Wish for more variety of basic attacks, and not a fixed "press LMB three times to do single one-two-three basic attack for ANY 2h weapon, and that's it". For example do several combinations of heavy and light swing basic attack combos at least: light swing to the right, heavy swing to the left, into a heavy stab could be an example combo, and 3 light swing attacks, or 2 light swings and 1 heavy stab, or heavy, heavy, and extra heavy block breaker - also combos you can do instead - all with basic attacks.
I know it's not mmorpg style to have more than one basic attack combo, but It's been my pet peeve for as long as I remember and i wish there was someone who could expand on this very limiting limitation in an mmo of my dreams
Comments
I would say yes, my friends and I had a watch-party and we were in love with what we saw, the abilities teased look great, the heaviness of the Greatsword was pretty much there. As far as the action combat goes, yes this is a MASSIVE improvement and you guys are headed in the right direction.
Everyone is going to tell you what they liked, and I will REITERATE that you guys did an AMAZING job and I am so impressed, so cool seeing it all 3 years later. So, let me tell you what I fear with this direction.
All of the abilities shown were action combat abilities, I am very curious if this is the direction it is headed (more action combat oriented, 75/25.) and is there any room for tab target, and how does it balance? What about ranged basic attacks? - If I have to aim at a dashing-zipping target, and I hit my shot, I'm going to do big damage, right? What are the balance implications, how can you make something higher skill curve (aiming bow shots on a moving target) as powerful and as strong as the guy who just dashed in three times and is spamming left click?
These are all surface level thoughts, I am very excited for the future and the copium is real. My friends and I have been drooling for a new mmo for 10 years and we are waiting for the day.
Edit: Seeing something, and playing something, are two incredibly different experiences. I am not just saying this because I want to play Alpha 2, but I think when you guys are ready you should really let a spot test open and let people get in there and swing stuff around and get a feel for it - a lot was riding on you guys today and you absolutely nailed it.
Before I start the rant, here's the legit feedback:
The differences between the greatsword and the daggers are basically non-existent. The heavier weapons need to be far slower, which also needs to impact the animation speed of the abilities where it makes sense (for example the magical overhead swing shouldn't be impacted, but the spinning should).
There is basically 0 feedback from the player and the enemies on getting hit. For daggers that's maybe fine, but again, not for the heavier weapons.
Also, there needs to be feedback on the weapon itself after a hit. This is most commonly done by slowing down the swing while inside of the enemy's hitbox, but not regaining 100% of its speed afterwards. This, yet again, needs to differ between the weapon types.
The animations look like the player character is the most unskilled greatsword wielder in existence. I highly recommend you do actual research on historical martial arts. I know "games aren't real dude", but if you want to be better than everyone else, then you can start with this, because 99.99% of developers completely ignore this.
The last point, which is not really a combat related thing, but. If you know that you're going to be showcasing something particular, please just work on it a little bit more. There are GLARING issues here that don't take much work to fix. Stop hiding behind the "work in progress" label. People don't care. People want to see a good showcase and preaching about "work in progress" for 15 minutes before you make a single basic attack creates a feeling that the showcase will suck.
Now for the rant:
Guys... You're seasoned developers and designers. It has been almost a year since we last saw the combat. Why is the greatsword like 90% as fast as the daggers? A toddler could point this out.
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but holy moly. When you have a presentation coming up, why not actually prepare for it. Adjust the animation speed is like 1 man day worth of work. You know Steve will showcase the greatsword mainly, why not work on the f***ing greatsword? This is why so many people don't take this project seriously. This is legit amateur behaviour. You can spend 15 minutes on the stream saying "please don't make fun of this, it's work in progress", nobody cares. If I come to a showcase meeting with obviously unpolished work, even if it's work in progress, my boss is OBVIOUSLY not going to be happy. Why do you think you can get away with this? "muh work in progress" will not save you anymore. This game is in development for like 6 years or so, and from the looks of it will remain in development for like another 2+ years.
Customizable damage numbers are cute and all, but I would rather have a polished combat showcase without them. That is really not a feature that makes or breaks the game. I have no idea why are your priorities so backwards, but the team leaders need to look into the mirror for a second.
There are so many things wrong with this showcase. Steve please for the love of god, when you say 50 times "guys this is work in progress", that automatically makes people think the showcase will f***ing suck. Stop hiding behind that label. The worst thing is the combination of those disclaimers AND the showcase actually not being very convincing.
I'm seriously concerned about a lack of a person who has an eye for polishing things in the combat team. There problems are not hard to fix, and definitelly aren't hard to spot. You've got a good base, but if you can't build off of it properly, the game will suck.
Greatsword
-In my opinion the normal attack looks a bit floaty, which could still have some added weight to the start and end of the 3 hit combo, foot stance could also help here.
- The whirlwind skill feels like it lasts a bit too long, I think 3 spins with the upward swing is more than enough, the longer it lasts the more boring combat with it feels. The very last upward swing needs a heavy step forward into a very heavy looking upward swing(like in elden ring with ASH OF WAR: STAMP (UPWARD CUT))
- The hammer slam skill, should come from over the shoulder from the side with a heavy step forward, it does not look good completely vertical, looks very static and lacks any depth to the animation.
Dagger
- A 4 part normal attack(with the same time frame of the 3-hit) Would look much nicer, the 3 hit looks very clunky especially between the 2nd and 3rd hit. a swing from left/right/left/then both (or vice versa) I think would feel a little better and since heavy weapons have 3 hits, having a faster 4 swing combo with daggers makes sense.
Normal Attacks
- A side moving dodge/dash/spin attack when moving sideways would help combat look less static and add a bit of animation while moving sideways and attacking, the movment distance can just be the same as if you were just moving normally and is aesthically pleasing but also adds depth and feeling to movement as a whole.
Other
- A slider for weight of attacks would be a great idea that was suggested in the video, which can really change user interface and how all different people want to play and how they like to play.
Pro's to this month
- The sound queues to monsters being aggro'd is perfect. 10/10
- The way monsters are hiding and there isn't a million of them on screen as you run around is a really good take on how things should be done in any game and how I visioned how nature etc. should be. 10/10
- Mount's and monsters again look absolutely amazing. The earth elementals are AWESOME. 10/10
- Characters look great and I can't wait to spend days in the character creation. 10/10
- Crafter's making the best gear and not being made redundant by a randomly added dungeon or raid. 10/10
- Progress of combat is monumental, still needs some work but it is definitely heading in the right direction 7/10
-Naruir
Would be interesting to know what mix of basic attack vs class ability damage you plan for an average rotation break down. For example, if the basic attack makes up 60 or 70% or more of our characters damage, then I can see some RSI setting in and people wearing out Q keys on a monthly basis.
But you ARE being an asshole? You didn't offer anything constructive you literally just word vomited Insults for multiple paragraphs, are you sure polish takes one day of work? Are you an Engineer / Designer? Why haven't you applied?
Calm down brother.
Overall - I would say I am feeling positive about the showcase. It looks much closer to what I think the majority wanted and the weight in some cases is there and it looks great. The UI stuff was actually arguably the most faultless part of the video (second only to that ship getting closer and closer each video! Naval video next month *cough*?).
Pros
I actually like the general speed of the Greatsword. I don't know how much slower you really want it, as we don't know what kind of damage numbers to expect. If this is going to be the slowest weapon in our arsenal, then perhaps it's about right. I am not really sure how slow I want it!
The dash looked pretty cool. I don't know if it felt too quick, or just right. I would have actually liked to have a showcase with two players fighting each other, as we would get to not only see it from a player perspective but from the perspective of receiving the attack (which given the PvP element, I feel is something we should be seeing simultaneously.
The directional animation overall is solid. It's nice that the effort has gone into that so we have full freedom of movement.
The UI section was IMO standout. Love the flexibility you are giving and given you have had some newish recruits I am certain that the results are going to speak for themselves.
Cons
It wasn't always the case, but the speed of the dual dagger combo seemed to vary. When you didn't have an enemy in front of you, the timing was just about perfect. But when you were attacking an enemy (possibly when moving forward) - the movement of lifting the daggers up, to cross slashing them down, *seemed* a little stiff/robotic. But when you were stationary the movement was slower and it looked better. It's possible this happens in a particular motion/axis but it looked better stationary than in combat.
General consensus seems to be that the yellow lines in the 2h sword animation are a bit much. I need a bit more information to really have an opinion - such as how much of our damage will come from basic attacks (given that we have a weapon talent tree) - and how much from abilities? In games like WoW melee damage can be very low, 5-15% - and also what kind of ability cooldowns are we looking at? If I knew what % of damage the sword is inflicting of my arsenal, I would have an idea of how I think it should look. What I might suggest similar to the daggers like others have said, just have a "wind" effect of the sword cutting through the air, grey animation a bit softer.
I don't know if our perception of audio was because we had a voice over, but I agree that there are some areas it can be improved. With the greatsword (at risk of sounding like that friends episode) - we have more of a "vwhish, vwhish" - but really with a big heavy sound you want a "whooosh, whooosh" - a deeper sound to carry that weight and the idea it's a slow but heavy weapon. Perhaps we could slow down the 2h a little bit to help accentuate that impact.
Continuing on Audio - agree with others we need a bit more receptiveness when monsters die - perhaps we could have "death noises" for types of monsters that can be used i.e. rock monster? Rock noise. Plant? Plant noise. I would want all "bosses" to have a unique one if possible but it doesn't really matter so much.
Feedback from monsters for hits. I am not sure if for an MMO we want to limit the stutter effects when getting hit by weapon attacks/monsters, but the impact of the hit was definitely missing a resulting impact on the monster. Whether it be a small visual with a sound, I am trying to limit how much "animation budget" is needed to have a reaction from every monster. And we really need to know all the systems with attacks that are going to be in place. New World had a stagger system, is this something you will have? If not, I don't really want micro stutters in place. And given we will probably have more abilities than New World, I don't think we necessarily need their system given basic attacks will have its own tree with modifications that we still don't know about.
--
Questions for you:
Dash - was that an ability, was it baseline for all classes (with different animations?). If it's an ability, is it an example of something that can be augmented like the blink? Did it have charges on a cd, or does it use a stamina bar system? Is it an iFrame? (I don't play enough action games to have an opinion on this others could chime in better).
Block system - assume it will use some sort of stamina bar? Will the bar be shared with dash or will they have their own resource? With blocking, how do you change its modifiers? I.e. at baseline I would expect a shield to have superior blocking, i.e. I can block for longer, I also mitigate more damage. I would expect weapons to "parry" rather than "block" and be mechanically slightly different/weaker.
Then, how do we further modify? "Waterfall stats" which make our block/parry more effective? Or is it a case that we can get more of the "stamina" resource for our character?
it would be good if the 1h/shield weapon skill tree could branch into more offensive/defense options but not push you into one OR the other. Find a way for people to mix up offensive/defensive talents. make block more effective, allow block to also effect spells at a weaker effect, but maybe not at all by default (depending on balance, maybe spells will need to be blockable).
Since abilities are CLASS related, but weapons are usable for anyone. Will animations for class abilities be changed depending on your weapon choice? We saw the dagger using a huge swing animation which looked a bit out of place. And leading on to that, will abilities actually CHANGE depending on the weapon? I.e. will daggers have a smaller range aoe, perhaps higher damage output?
--
Action/Tab - I know that you kind of worked around using the exact words, but when you were talking about us being happy with your "design direction" I feel like this is what you were asking. I personally think that your choice to call this the "Basic Melee Weapon Attack" video is telling that there will be differences between melee/ranged options. There is a clear divide between action/tab but the saving grace was always you saying that there will be a mix of tab or action. The community really does need to know even conceptually, where the current direction is going to be leading towards.
To give an example, if I were to be a bow user, am I going to have to be good at fps games to use the bow i.e. I need to have fairly good aim with all my basic attacks, or will you use a tab-styled lock on explicitly for basic attacks for ranged weapons? It's very difficult to miss the cone attacks of the melee in that kind of range so in a way I understand why you can have that be Action style. I do feel that as a less skilled player myself, in a game like WoW I can play hunter and be less skilled than a skilled player, but at least I am not at a mechanical disadvantage just in terms of aim.
If you could at least have a black and white answer for the community on how you are balancing weapons/skills in terms of what will use Tab/Action even conceptually - I think you will at least give people an answer they are eager to get.
--
I just want to close off - this seems like there is more criticism but I actually really liked this showcase and felt a lot better than I make out. It's easy to say something is good. But I think if we can answer a few of the questions that have come from this showcase then it will further show how receptive you guys are to feedback; so honestly just good job everyone on the work the game is really fleshing out.
Imo you nailed the animations even when they seem not to be done yet (sword seemingly teleporting between swings / missing fps) i really liked the animations maybe i am the only one who thought that but the hitting animation of the GS looked like they were out of the game Hades and i really loved their style.
customisation is key and i am so happy that you are willing to give this key into players hands.
the only thing i didnt like was the block mechanic i am really worried about its place in an mmo and think it isnt the right way to go.
At last unreleated to the combat huge compliments to the people that designed the Golems from appareance > animation they were just soooo amazing thanks for that stream and your hard work.
Just one thing bothers me a little bit:
- While showcasing the attack it looked like every attack has like this colorized blink animation. With the big sword it hat this yellow/orange color. I wonder why though? Especially with the attack from above the head down it kinda was too much visible for my taste. However this might be subjective.
Ohterwise....I'm so looking forward for Alpha2.
I think it's a step in the right direction, but still needs some work/polishing. I know this is just a first pass, and will be worked on, so not worrying too much about it.
- Greatsword attack animation seems a bit too fast for heavy swings. Especially the cyclone spin attack. Would probably be better to slow them down by a third, or maybe even half. If quick. medium, and strong attacks are to be a thing in the game, as mentioned during the live stream presentation, it is currently too fast for the great sword. Tera had some great animations that made everything have a feel of weight and impact which was great, might want to use the slayer animations as a reference point for the speed. The attack animation reveal today was on the right track that's for sure. But needs some tweaking.
- Hope for some more variation in the dagger attacks, as it's way too repeatable, need a couple more animations weaved in to make it more fluid and pleasing to look at. ATM, my brain constantly notices the repeating 3 swipes in a negative manner. Know it's early pass, but hope this is on the books.
-. The animations for both are a bit clunky in certain aspects. If you play the youtube video at .25x, You will notice the animation literally freezes for a several frames, then picks up again, or even teleports to a different position in a unnatural manner. There isn't a smooth transition between them, I knew something was weird when I watched the dev update live, watching the youtube vid at slow speeds confirmed the results.
I know it's an early pass, and this will hopefully get sorted out, but wanted to bring it up just incase, as some can miss it easily...
- I know it's a WIP, but hope block has some weight to it. Right now it doesn't affect the character model at all,
would be nice to see the upper body absorb the weight of frontal attack, have their arms compress a little, etc. Probably jumping the gun here, as its most likely on the docket. But would love to see an absorption of force, which can also be applied to shield blocking.
Conclusion-
Overall, step in the right direction. I am a bit sad at the fact there won't be race specific animations, as an old fan of Lineage 2 from back in the day, and Steven drawing big inspiration from it, was hoping for it to be implemented. It added a very nice tough to the feel for Lineage 2, although I understand why it's not...As it would be a lot of work, especially with the separate kinematics between lower and upper body. Hoping this will eventually get added on though, as I think it's a very nice touch....But not a deal breaker if it isn't, great progress this month.
One thing Lineage 2 did very well, was execute successfully on immersive combat in a point and click mmo with very basic combat systems. The sound was impeccable, the attack animations were satisfying, sounds for basic attacks were impactful, and critical hits gave you a sense of weight and satisfaction. Tera on the other hands succeeded in great action combat, great weight, and an overall enjoyable experience (Too bad the game had nothing else to offer). I'm just hoping that Ashes finds a nice semblance between the two.
I do hope that the combat doesn't follow a bdo'esque style. It was just too fast paced, and there was no weight to certain aspects. Yes the movement felt good, at the expense of making it too fast paced and annoying for PVP. It did have great transitional movement through attacks which felt good, but the combat was so fast paced it was impossible to add any weight to the finishing animation, as well as upon the target you hit...Just a cluster f of movement without an impact on both sides. Was literally just being hit with a swing of a weapon and dying, without any feeling of impact.
Basically what I'm saying. Hoping Ashes can follow a direction that pulls from what made L2 and Tera successful in their overall presentation of combat....While pulling a tiny bit of inspiration for BDO. I saw that inspiration today in the teleport movement, and the transitional movement during auto attacks, which was good....Just hope it isn't pushed further to emulate BDO, as that combat did have problems imo.
Here's to crafting out a nice balance, and making something that feels polished in all regards, and not just a few areas like the games mentioned above. I do hope for some combat skills that marry rooted movement + sudden movement. Such as a dagger animation similar to L2 for deadly blow. Would picture it as rooting yourself for one second during a wind up animation, then small forward burst of movement throwing all the characters weight and direction to a dagger thrust, propelling them forward and making up for the rooted time + a meter or so. Would be a real nice touch.
Got so many combat ideas for skills floating around in my head...lol.
This does also bring up the discussion of allowing mass AOE pulls of mobs to happen, but there are many ways to solve that that isn't letting mobs collide with each other. (mob reset/leash ranges come to mind mainly.) I am of the opinion that it really doesn't matter if you can or cannot pull 100 mobs at a time the only thing that matters is if its challenging. If pulling 2 mobs isn't challenging the player will in most cases look to pull 3 or 4 instead or more. Most people will tend towards pulling as much as they possibly can before they are overwhelmed in a sort of mishmash of trying to maximize efficiency, but also trying to challenge themselves. This is shown in both WoW and FF14 in their dungeon environments.
Now the question is, are mass AOE pulls good, bad, or somewhere in between? My opinion is that they have their place and can be enjoyable, but need to be challenging. If the mass AOE pulls occur because who we are fighting is massively under tuned with no mechanics and isn't a threat at all, that is a problem. However, I do find enjoyment in just massive cleave damage and seeing a TON of numbers flying across my screen in a diablo or lost ark style. So I think there can be a balance struck, massive aoe pulls can (and in my opinion should) be a thing if done right.
Good job skipping through the entire first section of the comment to convenietly ignore all the "constructive feedback".
Yes, polish for one weapon type for like 6 different attack animations DOES take 1 day when you know what you're doing. They clearly didn't care enough to do the work, or (what I'm suspecting for a very long time) they don't know what they're doing.
And yes, I am in fact a software engineer. And I did not apply, because unlike you, I already have a job.
The team you have is amazing, I have full faith you will go headstrong into the combat direction that you want, and ignore the heavy bias and negativity around this style of combat.
Love the little things like the footsteps and weapons cut in the ground.
Things I'm looking out for, More reaction from being hit/ humanoid mobs being hit, sparks and recoil from blocking attacks.
The effects on the swings look good, not an overwhelming amount that you can't see what's going on, and not too little where it would be hard to see what you're opponent is doing.
Keep smashing It out, you know what you want and you know what we want!
I do like the active blocking aspect of combat, I despise the idea of having to aim at every enemy for every attack. I want to tell my character which enemy to attack and then he should aim for it by himself.
Apart from that: The visuals were great, the effect an attack has on your movement seems good (but you really can't judge that until you've tried that out yourself), the swing animation for the 2-hander looks a bit off to me, but maybe that has to do with other restrictions like how long the animation may take at maximum. Basically, the 2-handed-swing accelerates too fast and stops too fast.
Here's what a proper 2-handed swing looks like:
(1) your weapon points *away* from the enemy you want to attack.
(2) you drag the sword towards the enemy, you want to attack
(3) you adjust the drag direction slightly, allowing the sword to rotate forwards.
(4) after the impact you drag the sword backward, allowing gravity to help you swing it back, so it points away from the enemy.
The important part is here that you never actively try to rotate the sword, you just drag it behind your hand and let it rotate around your hand based on that.
Having re-watched the animation at x0.025 speed, this is mostly done correctly, except for when you set up the character for an attack. Then he moves the sword as if it was made of paper. Unfortunately, those slower movements are the ones you can recognize best, so I think it's important to find a more fluid motion here.
The difference between the slow, and fast combat did not feel that great. It might be a different story when playing, but from the visual and audio cues, the sword attacks felt relatively fast. Often, the third attack came really quickly in the video, to the point where I was curious if it was meant to be that fast. Additionally, and I'm not sure if we just weren't getting the full audio, but the sword attacks did not sound that... weighty. It honestly sounded like, at least to me, what I'd imagine a short sword or a one-handed long sword would sound like. Honestly, while I personally do not really enjoy slow weapons, I do appreciate how they are to play and play against. what most notably comes to mind, for me, is in dark souls with the greatswords. The difference in speed and weight between that, and say a dagger, is night and day, and truly gives off the feeling of power and speed respectively.
And regarding the daggers... it felt a bit much. Specifically, it looked like every single auto-attack, the character was giving it his all. A few attacks between them that are maybe slightly slower and more methodical? at least for the animation.
I loved the update, and am honestly excited to see where the game goes. I personally don't usually find myself playing MMORPGs, as I find single-player RPGs a lot more interesting, but this game has caught my attention. If it lives up to the ambition, in the aspects that I am most interested in, I will definitely be playing this after it releases
Also maybe:
Jump attack.
Smooth transition attack after dashing/sprinting.
Enemies get staggered longer when hit with a heavier weapon to sell the weight of it.
Steven's comment on Tab/Hybrid style combat. I will also post this here just to that people coming in/out concerned about the lack of tab in the showcase can be a little reassured.
I need to put emphasis on one thing. Combat in Ashes for me was never the main thing.
It’s important to many players for various reasons, known only for them.
I’ve played many different games with combat mmog, arpg, rpg and for some combat feeling (animation, sound, visuals) was a main theme for other titles it was a mean to get more levels or loot.
I’ve watched a few videos about the differences between TAB, ACTION and HYBRID and I think, I know where are you going now. You need to evolve.
I don’t want to see BDO style action (combos..combos), it’s not a Street Fighter game. I don’t want to see WoW style targeting as well.
Actions without too much manual skill cap + some Tab for CC’s, Heal stuff or active Block from Tab target spell.
It’s an open-world PvP and you need that Action combat freedom to roam inside of the battlefield. I remember L2 PvP where most of the classes would be rooted to the place spamming arrows or spells. Also, you need to do sword aoe damage to people around you not just to one person and others are not affected standing 1 feet from each other.
I like this approach.
Now,
Thank you for an in depth introduction to how the combat system works and how the tools are being created for the title.
Two hand heavy sword was/is:
- Too fast
- When you do spinning attack motion it should start slow and slow down at the end of it. Looks like it’s just a
helicopter effect at the moment
- There is no feeling of this 2h sword is a heave thing beside 2 animations
- I do understand that if you do combo you can gain a momentum and gain speed but at the end you should
be left with sudden “being stuck”
- Hammer skill was nice due need to predict where the enemy will be
- Dodge/Dash skill was making this 2h sword character even more fast
- Basic attack movement lack versatility (front thrust, uppercut, back swing after block)
Daggers:
- Speed is fine for the basic attacks
- Block looks nice but no reason to block so high only (work in progress)
- I love the visual aspect of daggers move that fast to distort visuals
- No stab, no parry or cut
Looking for more.
Thank you for very good work.
The thing that bothered me the most was when you get hit by a mob from a direction that isn't the front it still showed the blood splatter decal from the front of the body and you flinched like you were being hit from the front instead of the actual direction you were being hit from. (see 16:54 in the video to see what I mean https://youtu.be/t3LydR8VssY?t=1014 )
Overall I am very happy with the progress since the last combat showcase, the minute details really add to the combat experience (sounds, decals being applied to floor, particle effects, outer vision effects etc...)
I saw a fair amount of people comparing the combat to being somewhere between GW2 and BDO which is pretty good. I don't think it will surpass BDO's level of action combat as that is super in depth. With BDO you had to use key combinations to perform skills, with some skills requiring others to be performed prior to do the next one in the chain.
I believe melee combat being mostly action based is probably the best it can be but ranged weaponry would definitely benefit from single tab target stuff, AOE ground abilities should probably be manually aimed though.
The feeling of impact & fluidity. When my attacks or abilities truly feel like they have the player character behind the attack it creates a really immersive environment. The fluidity of the attacks for basic weapon attacks is equally important (this also goes for skills later.) Overall I think what was display is quite well done, and I hope the same standards are met for everything beyond the basic attack.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
No, actually. It follows a simple combo string that isn't overexaggerated, and is very fluid.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Most of my time was spent in TERA which had an amazing combat system. Without playing, it seems the combo string follows a similar formula, and I hope it continues to follow this path of Guild Wars, BDO, and TERA (Among others I may not know of.) Again, the combo strings are simple, fluid, repeat well, and feel like they have an impact.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
Depth. While we got to see a few weapon skills I believe, I am worried the skill trees will be very shallow and have few options. I do not want the combat to be focused around basic attacks alone (which I dont believe it will.) The basic attacks were extremely well done, but I dont want that to be the only thing well done. I have really enjoyed the progress of this game so far, but I will always remain critical and skeptical.
Overall I think this update truly snagged my attention more. The combat is promising, and intense, immersive action combat is pretty much the only reason I play. I wish the team the best of luck, and I am quietly awaiting future updates. Well done you guys!
Reflecting on souls-like combat youll notice that hits stun. Thats extremely valuable for a vision of “kinetic” combat. Even if the stun is extremely brief, limited to a slow, or purely in animation.
I also believe there is room for a slower weapon. The designers mentioned that they are defining the upper and lower bounds of the speed for weapon kits. The greatsword showcased shouldnt be that upper bound of weightiness. I want to see a giant hunk of guts tier steel that can hit somebody with the force of a meteor.
Keep up the fantastic work.
Overall melee
It is a step towards a better action combat, whether action combat is the right direction for ashes is debatable.
I would like to see parrying, block, evade etc. be static stats rather than a manual action.
The phase of the basic attack combat seems fitting for PVP and PVE, but would love to see alternative slight changes to the phase be tested in alpha 2.
I would like to see a weapon slower and heavier than what we saw with the two-handed sword... Two-handed axes ought to be in the lowest end of the spectrum.
Personally I would've liked to see more of thrust type animations alongside with the swing type animations.
Pros: Approach to player agency, seems to have that feel good feeling when landing hits, appropriate amount of cleave.
Cons: Still frames, animations rough on the edges(understandably they're not the final pass of the animations), lack of variation in attacks especially with daggers.
Two-handed Sword
Pros: Significantly heavier in comparison to daggers, beautiful impact effects, lowered agency due to heaviness.
Cons: Lack of variation (would like to see 1 more attack in the combo, the attack that leaves a mark behind the character should get forwarded into another swing), fluidity in animation transitions.
Daggers
Pros: The footwork, clearly distinct playstyle in comparison to the two-handed swords, cleave amount regardless of the size of the weapon, varying attack animation when walking backwards.
Cons: Lack of combo attacks (Would like to see 5 or more) and variability (left-2, right-2, left, right, finisher into right-2, left-2, right, left, finisher).
Numbers
The more customization the player has the better.
Abilities
Pros: Impactful, hammer attack requires planning and accuracy, a penalty for missing targets or not using the ability selectively.
Cons: Abilities didn't scale to fit with the daggers (I assume the abilities were only tuned for the two-handed sword thus far).
VFX
The basic attack VFX have a cartoon like appearance, personally I would prefer if the VFX were a bit more selective with its flare. The arts done with the VFX is masterful, but in contrast to the game graphics the cartoonish look isn't fitting.
The flashiness of the abilities is appropriate at least for single player gameplay, though I worry about having 40 people casting similar abilities at once.
I am overall impressed by what you showed us yesterday, can't wait to see more!
there are 2 things that needs improvement imo:
- Enemy impact on hit, u dont feel like u hit enemies with super heavy sword, u can for sure add some impact effects like particles and sound effects
- When u kill enemy it gets a force from the player direction, imo it would be better to add them force from the direction of the sword. So when u slice horizontaly from the right, enemy's body will fly to the left. It will improve feeling of weight in killing and also imagine how would it look in this spin ability
Everything you showcased with the 2 hand sword was great. Swings, the Cracks in the floor, the animations, there's literally nothing to say negative on it for the most part a GREAT job and you all deserve a Raise
All Dagger animations and autos look great again knocked it out of the park.
--Cons--
2h Sword doesn't sound like a metal weapon unless the plan is to just make it a hit noise (the only real negative I heard/seen.)
Daggers - The third hit seems to much because its like a finisher to save time id just make that a spell animation it looks good.
The Hammer slam ability is for sure to large of a radius in pvp i see that being an issue based on how far it goes and radius of the slam.
-Side Notes-
-I'm guessing blocking isn't completed yet so i have no comments
-I Love the Dodge it makes me think that combat will be fast pace in pvp.
-New World autos feel very good, All of there melee weapons feel good to use and fluent to be honest
-My biggest issue with the "combat" is going to just be the tediousness of it all spamming my left click to do attacks on a boss fight that last 5min-13min (based on wow times) is rough and i would ask that you guys spend the time to test how it feels spamming left click threw dungeons and now long can you do this without crossing an issue or carpal tunnel which ever comes first. Example--
-I played NW in the best West coast company arguably and top 5 melee on the West and within pvp my left clicking didn't bother me but in dungeons after run number 20+ it just felt unnecessary but its my main form of damage so I'm forced to actively focus on the fights that are on farm. Hours in game if it helps 1300 and 500 on beta ALOT of left clicks lmao.
"Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks."
-I would love to see ability animation cancels so for example mid "basic melee swing" I can cast a spell that will stop the animation and cast the spell to allow there to be timings. So the swing lands and i click my button to immediately cancel the rest of the animation and increase my DPS.
-The dash should cancel ability cast/channels to have the ability to dodge damage or gap close instead of finishing an animation that will not do damage.
- With there being a dash/dodge will there be targeted/non target charges for classes and would this lead to, to much mobility?
- ---- BIG FOCUS PLZ---- New world did a TERRIBLE job with unit collision i don't know if you plan to keep unit collision but just take ALOT of time to get this right towards the end. How NW solved this was to get rid of it all together for players which i think is ok in PVE/Towns but in PVP it feels a lot better and i never ran into a situation where i wanted it turned off because i walked into a teammate i LOVE the feeling of teammates being a real entity in Wars/sieges open world battles.
- Don't let charges/blinks be body blocked by teammates its really shitty.
TLDR
You guys did a great job with melee combat overall 1-2 small issues with both weapons.
Look to new world on how to not do unit collision in action combat
Basic melee attacks are to much and should be able to be turned off in dungeons/raids (instanced based)
because its a lot of clicks after farm run number 20+
Dodges/Dashes i hope stays in the game makes combat look fast paced which i would love but maybe reduce the distance so boss mechanics are harder.
2h Sword hammer animation was to big and to wide based on my experiences in pvp.
You guys are the best, Keep it up, What ever you are doing is working, You guys are the Saviors of the MMO genre we all HOPE. Thank you and sorry for the long format. I don't ever do this I'm a lurker.
I am looking forward to the ranged combat showcase and ability showcase as I plan to play a Cleric and Ranger type character and would love to see what you guys did with that. Looking forward to Alpha 2+.
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1 Swinging feels too light (no weight behind the sword/movement), which means needs a bit more windup and a bit more acceleration in the animation (not full speed instantly, but like a 0.2-0.3 sec ramp time). This also applies to sword position after last swing. If you swing left to right, you can't instantly swing top to bottom next, you need to bring sword up first.
2 Wish for more variety of basic attacks, and not a fixed "press LMB three times to do single one-two-three basic attack for ANY 2h weapon, and that's it". For example do several combinations of heavy and light swing basic attack combos at least: light swing to the right, heavy swing to the left, into a heavy stab could be an example combo, and 3 light swing attacks, or 2 light swings and 1 heavy stab, or heavy, heavy, and extra heavy block breaker - also combos you can do instead - all with basic attacks.
I know it's not mmorpg style to have more than one basic attack combo, but It's been my pet peeve for as long as I remember and i wish there was someone who could expand on this very limiting limitation in an mmo of my dreams