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Talking about Mounting before Combat, during Combat and after Combat.

JawjakJawjak Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I've seen older videos of people fighting, then during a fight, they would mount up and run away. As much as I love to get out of a sticky situation, it is frustrating fighting someone then they just run off during combat. I do enjoy the mounts and how they feel, but I feel like being able to fight then mount, dismount, fight, mount repeat is sort of annoying mechanics.

The other argument is lets say you are fighting a small group when your team from far away needs your squad to rotate. Then you'd want to get out of that situation you are currently in so you can help your team. If mount timer is added, then you have to deal with the current situation before going over.

I would like to make sure the current mounting system is and discussions on what are the best approaches to this. I also am wondering if some weapons/skills can offer disabling of mounts or dismount abilities. (This is from UO where you can have a crossbow knock someone off their mount and they have to take some time before remounting).
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Comments

  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In Darkfall we had to spawn the mount then you could just kill it.
  • I think similar to WoW should be okay. Mounting out of combat is a normal cast. No mounting during combat, and there needs to be a suitable period of non-combat activity to leave combat. Give people the opportunity to escape but only through suitable means.
  • A good case for persistent mounts - you'd have to physically get on it which would leave you pretty vulnerable, or your mount could get killed prior.. Different saddles and creatures could offer an advtange of mounting speed with a trade off of other traits.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Depends on if it's a combat mount.

    I'm not sure what no mounting during combat means.
    If I'm out picking flowers, get ambushed and want to escape without flagging as Combatant, does that mean I'm stuck on foot while I'm being attacked?
    I have to be able to run x distance without being hit before I can summon my mount??
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Some combat mounts should have Snare. Especially Spiders.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    So mounts are killable and if they are killed, they are not easily re-summoned. There are also ways to knock people off their mounts. Mounts have abilities, some of which are combat related.

    What you have seen of mounts isn't the final system. From what we have heard, the mount system sounds similar to Archeage's if you are familiar.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Depends on if it's a combat mount.

    I'm not sure what no mounting during combat means.
    If I'm out picking flowers, get ambushed and want to escape without flagging as combatant, does that mean I'm stuck on foot while I'm being attacked?
    I have to be able to run x distance without being hit before I can summon my mount??

    I think that if we afford non-combatants some sort of protection then that may steers the system towards being a bit more defender-friendly. I guess you always have to balance how you want this weight between attacker/defender to feel (regardless of their combatant status).

    I think that in a pvp game, even if I am picking flowers I expect to need to be overly aware of the constant risk of danger like an animal in the wild. I think that we should afford the same rules for attacker/defender. I.e. A defender can't just mount to escape if they get pulled into combat, however an attacker cannot mount to close the distance either if you manage to break off.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    You still have to be aware of the risk even with combat mounts available - but...

    What this seems to suggest is that if I'm picking flowers and get attacked by someone on a combat mount, I can only run on foot. I can't also hop on a combat mount or flee on a mount while I'm being attacked.

    Seems to me a Non-Combatant should be able to summon a mount, whenever.
    Maybe a Combatant should not be able to summon a mount after flagging for PvP. Obviously, if they initiated combat while on a mount, the Combatant doesn't need to summon a mount.

    A Non-Combatant is not a defender.
    Ashes is a PvX game.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    You still have to be aware of the risk even with combat mounts available - but...

    What this seems to suggest is that if I'm picking flowers and get attacked by someone on a combat mount, I can only run on foot. I can't also hop on a combat mount or flee on a mount while I'm being attacked.

    Seems to me a Non-Combatant should be able to summon a mount, whenever.
    Maybe a Combatant should not be able to summon a mount after flagging for PvP. Obviously, if they initiated combat while on a mount, the Combatant doesn't need to summon a mount.

    A Non-Combatant is not a defender.
    Ashes is a PvX game.

    I disagree that a non-combatant should have pvp protection in particular due to the game being PvX, perhaps we just don't see eye to eye here. I feel then we are steering to the argument that as the game will entice alot of "pve" players who don't want to engage in PvP, that they need protecting. The design seems to strongly go in the direction of there being risk in just about anything and I think that yes, even flower picking should have some risk.

    And that is from someone who will not be one of the avid pvpers and will very likely be outclassed in most cases. But I believe that's how the system will work. Rather than using other mechanics to protect non-combatants should we be perhaps seeing how the corruption system works when fleshed out, and work on developing Corruption as the over-arching solution to trying to prevent "griefing"?

  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    I don't think we should be able to just hop on our mount in the middle of combat and ride off into the sunset.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Non-Combatants don't have PvP protection simply because they can hop on a mount.
    Combatants can be on mounts. Combatants can be on mounts that have Snare abilities.
    It's just that Combatants would want to initiate combat from a mount, if they expect their target(s) will summon a mount to flee or fight.

    Because the OP also suggests that if I'm picking flowers and I get ambushed by a mounted attacker, I can't summon a combat mount and flag as Combatant while I'm being attacked.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think it's as bad or works as people think. Please, if you haven't played AA, watch some videos because that is most likely how it will work. You don't instantly get mounted when you summon your mount and you are able to get CCed off it. It can also be killed.

    If you summon your mount, you are risking it being killed and you will have to deal with whatever penalty comes with that.

    As an attacker, if you drop all of your CC on someone for no reason and they mount up, then i think they deserve to get away. You will also have your own mount to try to catch them on.
  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    Otr wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    I don't think we should be able to just hop on our mount in the middle of combat and ride off into the sunset.

    In the middle of the combat probably not.
    As @Jawjak said, it can be annoying for the stronger side.

    But for a surprised player, the emotions are higher if it has a chance to escape. Then will try to do that.

    Else, if the flee option is missing in general from the game, the weaker player will be always prepared to let himself killed. That I find unfun for both sides.

    I do think players should be able to escape combat if they desire.
    I just don't think it should be as easy as hopping on your mount and waving bye.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azraya wrote: »
    Otr wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    I don't think we should be able to just hop on our mount in the middle of combat and ride off into the sunset.

    In the middle of the combat probably not.
    As @Jawjak said, it can be annoying for the stronger side.

    But for a surprised player, the emotions are higher if it has a chance to escape. Then will try to do that.

    Else, if the flee option is missing in general from the game, the weaker player will be always prepared to let himself killed. That I find unfun for both sides.

    I do think players should be able to escape combat if they desire.
    I just don't think it should be as easy as hopping on your mount and waving bye.

    it's not that easy.
  • @Azraya players will be able to build a toolkit in a way that can perhaps afford them better means of escape. I will have to focus my augments on defensive/evasive/counters to any potential aggressor. Or perhaps carry certain items that may help. Party up perhaps. Those should be the means of escaping.

    A person conducting an ambush will always have the advantage that is just a matter of fact. But given there shouldn't really be true invisibility, you should at least have a chance to watch your surroundings and determine if you are safe or not, before the ambush takes place.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I think summoning / getting on / riding away in combat would be fine if:
    1. When summoned you are not mounted, you have to get on your horse (think Witcher 3)
    2. When summoned a mount is immediately vulnerable to attacks
    3. Neither summoning cast nor the action of mounting are instantaneous
    4. When dismounted (by choice or being knocked off) a mount stays around for 8-10 seconds (and is attackable)
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  • JawjakJawjak Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Some people want a combat timer before being able to mount up. This is when everyone is in combat (Siege, Caravan Pvp etc). Non Combat shouldn't have a timer if they are chilling and someone tries to attack you. They should have a timer not the non combat.

    I personally want some sort of delay before being able to remount during combat. I know in UO ( I keep referencing UO cause that is my most played MMO) there are pvp factions and there is a statuette that you can have in your bag where it will summon a mount for you to automatically ride on. When people get dismounted, they use this statue to get back on a new mount while they other one goes away. (Some people used scripts for this fyi auto mount if dismounted).

    But just wanting more thoughts on this delay. I really don't want to see someone mount during a fight, but I also don't want to see someone waiting 5-10 seconds after combat before mounting cause you might never be able to mount back up. Trying to find a good median.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think a delay for Combatants, could be OK, but…
    I have a feeling PvP folk won’t like Non-Combatants having an advantage for escaping PvP.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I don't see why you shouldn't be able to mount in combat. You'll still be being attacked, but won't be able to defend yourself. I could see having a Damage Taken increase while you're doing it, but if you make it, then ride for your life!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    AidanKD wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Depends on if it's a combat mount.

    I'm not sure what no mounting during combat means.
    If I'm out picking flowers, get ambushed and want to escape without flagging as combatant, does that mean I'm stuck on foot while I'm being attacked?
    I have to be able to run x distance without being hit before I can summon my mount??

    I think that if we afford non-combatants some sort of protection then that may steers the system towards being a bit more defender-friendly. I guess you always have to balance how you want this weight between attacker/defender to feel (regardless of their combatant status).

    I think that in a pvp game, even if I am picking flowers I expect to need to be overly aware of the constant risk of danger like an animal in the wild. I think that we should afford the same rules for attacker/defender. I.e. A defender can't just mount to escape if they get pulled into combat, however an attacker cannot mount to close the distance either if you manage to break off.

    I would consider the needed balance in terms of the corruption system. From what we know so far of the settings and balance of the corruption system, it seems to heavily favor consensual PvP and attempts to discourage non-consensual ganking, with repeated non-consensual PvP being heavily punished. So in that light I think allowing a non-combatant who hasn't entered combat yet to run away on their mount an appropriate choice. It seems clear that this would be more in line with Intrepid's design intention.

    Because the other choice is for the flower-picker to decide not to fight back, just stand there and die which makes the player frustrated and then give the attacker corruption and the associated negative effects, which then makes the attacker frustrated. I'd much rather we have a situation with one happy player and one unhappy player, whose unhappiness is purely of their own making, than two unhappy players who are unhappy due to game design choices.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    You should be able to mount in combat, though if you get hit it should reset the bar so you can't just summon a mount int he middle of being hit. Also there should be effective skills for knocking people off mounts as well.
  • ThekoTheko Member, Alpha Two
    There should be chances to get away when you are ambushed ... but there should be counter mechanics as well.

    Things like that should use environmental positioning, timing and reflexes ...
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We still have yet to see mounts become separate entities to the character as well. Id like to see summoning a mount take some time. A few seconds at least. And i would like it to be interruptable. Seeing as the mounts shoukd eventually become their own entity and stay around without the player riding them, and help you fight as well. Unless im wrong, they should stay around after being summoned until dismissed or killed, not just because you get off of them.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't want mounts to take long to summon.

    I don't want mounting to take long explicitly.

    I want 'Quick Mount' or 'Leaping Mount' to be a mount skill for those who wish to have an 'Escape Based' response to sudden PvP challenges.

    And maybe some other skills too for when a mount 'detects a Combatant near it' when summoned in Open World. Alert Owner, Flee Towards Owner, etc.

    I think it would be more interesting to be able to use your Mount as an alarm system for potential threats if you are taking the risk of having it summoned in the Open World to begin with.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't want mounts to take long to summon.

    I don't want mounting to take long explicitly.

    I want 'Quick Mount' or 'Leaping Mount' to be a mount skill for those who wish to have an 'Escape Based' response to sudden PvP challenges.

    And maybe some other skills too for when a mount 'detects a Combatant near it' when summoned in Open World. Alert Owner, Flee Towards Owner, etc.

    I think it would be more interesting to be able to use your Mount as an alarm system for potential threats if you are taking the risk of having it summoned in the Open World to begin with.

    As its currently described in the wiki, your mount will be summoned near you, not with you on it. And you will need to mount it. Mounting is described as a quick and easy action. So i mean. I dont think time involved in summoning the mount is a big deal if its a 2 step system. Summon, then mount. I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action.

    Then it moves on to mount specialization. If you want a fast mount for escaping, its probably weaker/not as useful in combat.

    A group trying to attack someone would probably have members with combat specific mounts, a few individuals with "chaser" mounts to stop people from fleeing.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I mean... the way it worked in Alpha One...
    We summoned the mount near us and then auto-mounted.
    It's not really one-button, in any case, because it's still a second button to actually move. You don't just start speeding away simply because you summoned your mount.

    Of course, there will be mount specializations due to Animal Husbandry and Combat Mounts.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    I agree its something that should be a few buttons, pressing W isn't really a extra button it is just you moving forward.. Flow of combat wouldn't be good if you simply summon your mount quickly and move forward. People will just do that mid fight to evade a bunch of attacks and combat will feel more of a mount game then your actual character. Not to mention mount skills you have and being able to spawn and use it in the middle of a fight. It should be like 5 seconds ish before you are on your mount and using it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Pressing W is literally a second button if you are going to escape.
    1 button to mount will not have you escaping. You will just be staying where you are until you hit a 2nd button.
    So, escape by summoning a mount cannot be a 1-button action, in any case.

    Mounting does not cause you to evade a bunch of attacks. You still have to do something after you mount.
    And you might choose to use your mount's attacks.
    Flow of combat will depend on what people actually choose to do.
    Some players might prefer mounted combat.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    .
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Pressing W is literally a second button if you are going to escape.
    1 button to mount will not have you escaping. You will just be staying where you are until you hit a 2nd button.
    So, escape by summoning a mount cannot be a 1-button action, in any case.

    Mounting does not cause you to evade a bunch of attacks. You still have to do something after you mount.
    And you might choose to use your mount's attacks.
    Flow of combat will depend on what people actually choose to do.
    Some players might prefer mounted combat.

    You are really exaggerating the time it takes to press W....

    Preferring mounted combat and balancing so it doesn't ruin the flow of the game are two different things. I don't think they are putting effort into all the classes to make mounted combat better then everything else and 0 time frame to instantly get on a mount. Pretty sure you want that more to just run away though if you are going to say 5 seconds is too much.

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