DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
How the hell am I exaggrating TIME??
I didn't say anything about time.
I said that W is literally a 2nd button when it comes to summoning a mount and escaping.
If you hit 1 button to summon a mount, you have to hit a 2nd button to escape.
Summoning a mount does not immediately cause you to escape anything.
LMAO
Now you are trying to move the goalpoast from flow of combat to flow of game.
Mounted combat is part of the flow of the game. Whatever else that will be.
An opponent hopping onto a mount does not interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s).
Fleeing might interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s). That's true whether the opponent runs away on foot or runs away on a mount.
Opponents might also prefer to use the attacks of their combat mounts. No point in having combat mounts if they aren't going to be useful.
And, yeah, if I'm going to use a mount to run away from combat as a Non-Combatant... I shouldn't need to wait 5 seconds.
If you want to add a 5 second delay for Combatants to escape after hopping on a mount... I'm not necessarily against that, but... I think PvPers will complain that it gives too much advantage for Non-Combatants to escape.
How the hell am I exaggrating TIME??
I didn't say anything about time.
I said that W is literally a 2nd button when it comes to summoning a mount and escaping.
If you hit 1 button to summon a mount, you have to hit a 2nd button to escape.
Summoning a mount does not immediately cause you to escape anything.
LMAO
Now you are trying to move the goalpoast from flow of combat to flow of game.
Mounted combat is part of the flow of the game. Whatever else that will be.
An opponent hopping onto a mount does not interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s).
Fleeing might interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s). That's true whether the opponent runs away on foot or runs away on a mount.
Opponents might also prefer to use the attacks of their combat mounts. No point in having combat mounts if they aren't going to be useful.
And, yeah, if I'm going to use a mount to run away from combat as a Non-Combatant... I shouldn't need to wait 5 seconds.
If you want to add a 5 second delay for Combatants to escape after hopping on a mount... I'm not necessarily against that, but... I think PvPers will complain that it gives too much advantage for Non-Combatants to escape.
What are you talking about, why are you talking about irrelevant things everyone fully understands summon a amount and its speed gets you out of combat. You think people don't know you need to press movement keys to move, what the hell does that have to do with time frame of people talking about getting on a mount. If anything if the mount of a jump or speed skill you hit that button and instantly get away from an attacker.
No if I'm saying flow of game I'm talking about in context to the combat which is still flow of combat. Yes you should need to wait for 5 seconds and not be able to jump on mount in one second in the middle of combat and run away that is utter nonsense. Then combat is you jump on amount anytime someone is doing something tot run away and then attack and rinse and repeat.
Pretty much our of your own selfishness to want to run away from pvp you want to support bad mechanics that can add terrible metas for PvP combat. No pvper is going to complain when you can interrupt them from getting on the mount or choose to get on your own mount as well.
I mean... the way it worked in Alpha One...
We summoned the mount near us and then auto-mounted.
It's not really one-button, in any case, because it's still a second button to actually move. You don't just start speeding away simply because you summoned your mount.
Of course, there will be mount specializations due to Animal Husbandry and Combat Mounts.
This is the quote im focusing on when i say its not a single button escape.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What are you talking about, why are you talking about irrelevant things everyone fully understands summon a amount and its speed gets you out of combat. You think people don't know you need to press movement keys to move, what the hell does that have to do with time frame of people talking about getting on a mount. If anything if the mount of a jump or speed skill you hit that button and instantly get away from an attacker.
I understand that it is difficult for you to follow the flow of conversations, so I will spell it out for you...again:
I dont think time involved in summoning the mount is a big deal if its a 2 step system. Summon, then mount. I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action.
It's not really one-button, in any case, because it's still a second button to actually move. You don't just start speeding away simply because you summoned your mount.
Pressing W is literally a second button if you are going to escape.
1 button to mount will not have you escaping. You will just be staying where you are until you hit a 2nd button.
So, escape by summoning a mount cannot be a 1-button action, in any case.
You are really exaggerating the time it takes to press W....
Show me where I said anything about TIME.
All I said is that summoning a mount and escaping is not a 1-button action. You have to, at least, press a 2nd button to escape.
How can that be an exaggeration of anything? What am I exaggerating??
I'm against in-combat mounting overall. However, i'm fine with it if mounting takes a considerable amount of time mid-combat and every source of damage cancels out the attempt.
Makes it Risk vs. Reward. You think you can get it done? Good for you. You don't get it done? You just wasted 1-3 sec doing nothing.
Im not really against or for it.... i think it needs to be tested. If every fight starts with every party member summoning all their mounts every time, it could be.... weird. At the very least. Need to see exactly where mounts fit in combat.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If I'm saying flow of game I'm talking about in context to the combat which is still flow of combat. Yes you should need to wait for 5 seconds and not be able to jump on mount in one second in the middle of combat and run away that is utter nonsense. Then combat is you jump on amount anytime someone is doing something to run away and then attack and rinse and repeat.
Just because you think flow of combat is synonymous with flow of the game does not make it so.
The game is not only about combat.
Escaping from combat is part of the flow of the game. Breaking the flow of combat is also part of the flow of the game.
Again, who says that hopping on a mount means that you only do so to escape?
People will hop on a mount in order to engage in mounted combat.
I've already said several times that I'm not against giving Combatants a 5 second delay for fleeing once they've summoned a mount. But, I believe PvPers will perceive that to be unfair, compared to Non-Combatants who have no delay.
Pretty much our of your own selfishness to want to run away from pvp you want to support bad mechanics that can add terrible metas for PvP combat. No pvper is going to complain when you can interrupt them from getting on the mount or choose to get on your own mount as well.
LMFAO
Of course, I am looking at the issue from the PvE perspective first.
If I summon a mount to escape mobs I don't want to fight, why should there be a 5 second delay? 5 second delay for that is absurd. And, yes, the same is true for Non-Combatants avoiding PvP combat. That's part of Ashes being a PvX game.
If you wish to mitigate a Non-Combatant fleeing via a mount, you always have the option of initiating PvP from your combat mount.
But, sure, if you wish to put a delay for Combatants to flee after summoning a mount - as part of the risk of flagging - I'm probably OK with that. I don't know that PvPers will be OK with that...
But, like I said, if they think it's too much of an advantage for Non-Combatants to flee, they can just initiate PvP from a combat mount and then the delay effectively won't exist for them either.
What are you talking about, why are you talking about irrelevant things everyone fully understands summon a amount and its speed gets you out of combat. You think people don't know you need to press movement keys to move, what the hell does that have to do with time frame of people talking about getting on a mount. If anything if the mount of a jump or speed skill you hit that button and instantly get away from an attacker.
I understand that it is difficult for you to follow the flow of conversations, so I will spell it out for you...again:
I dont think time involved in summoning the mount is a big deal if its a 2 step system. Summon, then mount. I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action.
It's not really one-button, in any case, because it's still a second button to actually move. You don't just start speeding away simply because you summoned your mount.
Pressing W is literally a second button if you are going to escape.
1 button to mount will not have you escaping. You will just be staying where you are until you hit a 2nd button.
So, escape by summoning a mount cannot be a 1-button action, in any case.
You are really exaggerating the time it takes to press W....
Show me where I said anything about TIME.
All I said is that summoning a mount and escaping is not a 1-button action. You have to, at least, press a 2nd button to escape.
How can that be an exaggeration of anything? What am I exaggerating??
So you are saying you need to press WASD to move, ok...
This is the quote i'm focusing on when i say it's not a single button escape.
Well, what you said was:
" I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action."
It's already not that.
What's the effective difference between already having your mount summoned when you're attacked and the way it was in Alpha-One?
If you already have your mount following you around when you're attacked, it's still one button to mount and another button to flee.
The PvPer can target your mount first in the hope that they get a headstart on killing your mount before you notice the attack.
But, from the perspective of mounting and fleeing, it would still be 1 button to mount and a 2nd button to flee.
This is the quote i'm focusing on when i say it's not a single button escape.
Well, what you said was:
" I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action."
It's already not that.
What's the effective difference between already having your mount summoned when you're attacked and the way it was in Alpha-One?
If you already have your mount following you around when you're attacked, it's still one button to mount and another button to flee.
The PvPer can target your mount first in the hope that they get a headstart on killing your mount before you notice the attack.
But, from the perspective of mounting and fleeing, it would still be 1 button to mount and a 2nd button to flee.
The difference is the attackers being able to target an existing mount, but not being able to target a non-existing mount.
I see the value in threat assessment. I can decide if i want to attack you, based on your mount as well. And if you have to summon your mount, and then mount it, i get a split second to react, and target your mount.
To go further into this. You're really focusing on the wording of my thought. "I dont want escape to be a single button"...
The point is more, i dont want escape to be "easy" or "feel unfair" you should be able to run. Yes. I think "risk reward" of being prepared to run should be having your mount already summoned. And as an attacker i have to manage to then "defeat" your, mount and run away.
This is the quote i'm focusing on when i say it's not a single button escape.
Well, what you said was:
" I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action."
It's already not that.
What's the effective difference between already having your mount summoned when you're attacked and the way it was in Alpha-One?
If you already have your mount following you around when you're attacked, it's still one button to mount and another button to flee.
The PvPer can target your mount first in the hope that they get a headstart on killing your mount before you notice the attack.
But, from the perspective of mounting and fleeing, it would still be 1 button to mount and a 2nd button to flee.
The difference is the attackers being able to target an existing mount, but not being able to target a non-existing mount.
i can agree with that. If you want to have the possibility of mounting in combat, then you should have the mount out and attack-able from the beginning rather than summoning it on a when-needed basis.
That, or make the summoning process take significantly longer during combat.
The difference is the attackers being able to target an existing mount, but not being able to target a non-existing mount.
I see the value in threat assessment. I can decide if i want to attack you, based on your mount as well. And if you have to summon your mount, and then mount it, i get a split second to react, and target your mount.
I think that's not really going to be a thing.
The advantage you get won't be in the split seconds a Non-Combatant summons a mount, mounts and flees.
You also won't have much advantage with a Non-Combatant summoning a mount, mounting and attacking you.
You may have significant advantage attacking a mount you spot following around a potential victim.
You may be able to severely disable the mount before your victim notices there is an attack and responds.
Sure.
The difference is the attackers being able to target an existing mount, but not being able to target a non-existing mount.
I see the value in threat assessment. I can decide if i want to attack you, based on your mount as well. And if you have to summon your mount, and then mount it, i get a split second to react, and target your mount.
I think that's not really going to be a thing.
The advantage you get won't be in the split seconds a Non-Combatant summons a mount, mounts and flees.
You also won't have much advantage with a Non-Combatant summoning a mount, mounting and attacking you.
You may have significant advantage attacking a mount you spot following around a potential victim.
You may be able to severely disable the mount before your victim notices there is an attack and responds.
Sure.
With the mount existing, and being targetable. Im fine with mount and run away.
With the mount not existing, auto mount run away, seems unfairly balanced to the fleeing party.
And i dont say this to target greens. I just feel that way in general. Fighting over material is a large part of the pvx experience. People should have to at least think preemptively if escape is all they want.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
haha
Commas are your friend.
But, I mean.
It will likely be more common that people will not have their mounts out and following them around.
Attacking Non-Combatants is not going to be significantly different with regard to summoning mounts in order to flee.
I think we still have to see what it will be like for Combatants.
I think summon mount, auto-mount and flee already felt like too much of a delay for me to try that in Alpha One.
With the mount existing, and being targetable. Im fine woth mount and run away.
Exactly. There's that balance for risk and reward. Yes, you can call your mount while in combat, but that doesn't mean that you and/or your mount will survive to escape.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Haha. I agree with that if what you mean by "while in combat" means you are flagged as a Combatant when you call your mount.
With the mount existing, and being targetable. Im fine woth mount and run away.
Exactly. There's that balance for risk and reward. Yes, you can call your mount while in combat, but that doesn't mean that you and/or your mount will survive to escape.
Haha. I agree with that if what you mean by "while in combat" means you are flagged as a Combatant when you call your mount.
Now thats a question for a livestream. Am i "in combat" if im green and a player is attacking me. Most would probably say yes, i mean just think about single player games... "you cant fast travel with enemies nearby" just because its combat you dont want, doesnt mean you arent in it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That's subjective to the poster, I think.
In which game can you not fast travel if there are enemies nearby?
If you invest in the system, you’ll be granted flexibility in combat on or off a mount.
As was mentioned before, some mounts will run faster but likely have less health and attack power than others. The counter to this, as I think Dygz said, would be a mount with snares or slows. The speedier mount, if it’s a high enough quality (reward granted to player investment) could then potentially have some escape abilities to evade those.
Your mount build will hopefully have just as much relevance in engaging in or avoiding combat as your player combat build. From that perspective, I don’t believe any of us should be scared of mounting in combat.
Should there be a brief delay for the sake of realism? Yes. Blow a whistle, it runs up to you, and you mount your steed. What’s that, three seconds? You’re vulnerable the whole time, and I think your whistle should be able to be silenced / you should be able to be stunned while mounting. If you’re smart, you’ll keep your mount with you so you don’t have to call for it and can cut that vulnerable time in half.
I like the idea that was mentioned of having a mount ability for signaling you when a flagged combatant is within a certain range. That should give you ample time to flee, if, again, you’ve invested time into the system and have a mount that can do all these things.
2
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ha!
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
Ha!
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
It makes sense though! Animals in our own world that are large enough to ride upon are generally pretty intelligent creatures. Even dogs, for instance, have varieties that have been selectively bred to exhibit greater social and emotional intelligence. Both for offensive purposes (hunting, military, etc) and defensive purposes (guarding) separately. In a system where we're selectively breeding large, intelligent creatures, I should think at least this much should be theoretically possible.
Ha!
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
You really want a notification whenever another player is near you? Seems rather distracting and immersion breaking when your stag growls 20 times an hour just because there is passer-bys.
Ha!
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
You really want a notification whenever another player is near you? Seems rather distracting and immersion breaking when your stag growls 40 times an hour just because there is passer-bys.
Ha!
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
You really want a notification whenever another player is near you? Seems rather distracting and immersion breaking when your stag growls 40 times an hour just because there is passer-bys.
Well, like most video game abilities, it should be something you can toggle. Obviously you wouldn’t want to have it on in the middle of town or during a node siege.
As for the obedience of mounted creatures, yes, they’re obedient and aren’t going to throw a total fit at the slightest suggestion of danger, but if you learn to read your mount’s language, you can come to decipher those things. Like when a pack of bandits are creeping around the woods beyond your earshot while you’re next to a crackling campfire. The horse can still hear them and may become a bit restless. It’s an animal, not a robot. Just because it’s trained to be obedient as a mount doesn’t mean it can’t express feelings of unease. You just have to be trained and acquainted with each other well enough to read the signs.
Comments
I didn't say anything about time.
I said that W is literally a 2nd button when it comes to summoning a mount and escaping.
If you hit 1 button to summon a mount, you have to hit a 2nd button to escape.
Summoning a mount does not immediately cause you to escape anything.
LMAO
Now you are trying to move the goalpoast from flow of combat to flow of game.
Mounted combat is part of the flow of the game. Whatever else that will be.
An opponent hopping onto a mount does not interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s).
Fleeing might interrupt the combat flow of the attacker(s). That's true whether the opponent runs away on foot or runs away on a mount.
Opponents might also prefer to use the attacks of their combat mounts. No point in having combat mounts if they aren't going to be useful.
And, yeah, if I'm going to use a mount to run away from combat as a Non-Combatant... I shouldn't need to wait 5 seconds.
If you want to add a 5 second delay for Combatants to escape after hopping on a mount... I'm not necessarily against that, but... I think PvPers will complain that it gives too much advantage for Non-Combatants to escape.
What are you talking about, why are you talking about irrelevant things everyone fully understands summon a amount and its speed gets you out of combat. You think people don't know you need to press movement keys to move, what the hell does that have to do with time frame of people talking about getting on a mount. If anything if the mount of a jump or speed skill you hit that button and instantly get away from an attacker.
No if I'm saying flow of game I'm talking about in context to the combat which is still flow of combat. Yes you should need to wait for 5 seconds and not be able to jump on mount in one second in the middle of combat and run away that is utter nonsense. Then combat is you jump on amount anytime someone is doing something tot run away and then attack and rinse and repeat.
Pretty much our of your own selfishness to want to run away from pvp you want to support bad mechanics that can add terrible metas for PvP combat. No pvper is going to complain when you can interrupt them from getting on the mount or choose to get on your own mount as well.
This is the quote im focusing on when i say its not a single button escape.
Show me where I said anything about TIME.
All I said is that summoning a mount and escaping is not a 1-button action. You have to, at least, press a 2nd button to escape.
How can that be an exaggeration of anything? What am I exaggerating??
Makes it Risk vs. Reward. You think you can get it done? Good for you. You don't get it done? You just wasted 1-3 sec doing nothing.
The game is not only about combat.
Escaping from combat is part of the flow of the game. Breaking the flow of combat is also part of the flow of the game.
Again, who says that hopping on a mount means that you only do so to escape?
People will hop on a mount in order to engage in mounted combat.
I've already said several times that I'm not against giving Combatants a 5 second delay for fleeing once they've summoned a mount. But, I believe PvPers will perceive that to be unfair, compared to Non-Combatants who have no delay.
LMFAO
Of course, I am looking at the issue from the PvE perspective first.
If I summon a mount to escape mobs I don't want to fight, why should there be a 5 second delay? 5 second delay for that is absurd. And, yes, the same is true for Non-Combatants avoiding PvP combat. That's part of Ashes being a PvX game.
If you wish to mitigate a Non-Combatant fleeing via a mount, you always have the option of initiating PvP from your combat mount.
But, sure, if you wish to put a delay for Combatants to flee after summoning a mount - as part of the risk of flagging - I'm probably OK with that. I don't know that PvPers will be OK with that...
But, like I said, if they think it's too much of an advantage for Non-Combatants to flee, they can just initiate PvP from a combat mount and then the delay effectively won't exist for them either.
So you are saying you need to press WASD to move, ok...
Can we keep the pointless arguing with mag7spy, on the argue with mag7spy thread please?
" I just dont think escape should be a simple one button action."
It's already not that.
What's the effective difference between already having your mount summoned when you're attacked and the way it was in Alpha-One?
If you already have your mount following you around when you're attacked, it's still one button to mount and another button to flee.
The PvPer can target your mount first in the hope that they get a headstart on killing your mount before you notice the attack.
But, from the perspective of mounting and fleeing, it would still be 1 button to mount and a 2nd button to flee.
The difference is the attackers being able to target an existing mount, but not being able to target a non-existing mount.
I see the value in threat assessment. I can decide if i want to attack you, based on your mount as well. And if you have to summon your mount, and then mount it, i get a split second to react, and target your mount.
To go further into this. You're really focusing on the wording of my thought. "I dont want escape to be a single button"...
The point is more, i dont want escape to be "easy" or "feel unfair" you should be able to run. Yes. I think "risk reward" of being prepared to run should be having your mount already summoned. And as an attacker i have to manage to then "defeat" your, mount and run away.
i can agree with that. If you want to have the possibility of mounting in combat, then you should have the mount out and attack-able from the beginning rather than summoning it on a when-needed basis.
That, or make the summoning process take significantly longer during combat.
The advantage you get won't be in the split seconds a Non-Combatant summons a mount, mounts and flees.
You also won't have much advantage with a Non-Combatant summoning a mount, mounting and attacking you.
You may have significant advantage attacking a mount you spot following around a potential victim.
You may be able to severely disable the mount before your victim notices there is an attack and responds.
Sure.
With the mount existing, and being targetable. Im fine with mount and run away.
With the mount not existing, auto mount run away, seems unfairly balanced to the fleeing party.
And i dont say this to target greens. I just feel that way in general. Fighting over material is a large part of the pvx experience. People should have to at least think preemptively if escape is all they want.
Commas are your friend.
But, I mean.
It will likely be more common that people will not have their mounts out and following them around.
Attacking Non-Combatants is not going to be significantly different with regard to summoning mounts in order to flee.
I think we still have to see what it will be like for Combatants.
I think summon mount, auto-mount and flee already felt like too much of a delay for me to try that in Alpha One.
Exactly. There's that balance for risk and reward. Yes, you can call your mount while in combat, but that doesn't mean that you and/or your mount will survive to escape.
They quoted my typo... my shame!
Now thats a question for a livestream. Am i "in combat" if im green and a player is attacking me. Most would probably say yes, i mean just think about single player games... "you cant fast travel with enemies nearby" just because its combat you dont want, doesnt mean you arent in it.
In which game can you not fast travel if there are enemies nearby?
Single player rpg's like skyrim and such
As was mentioned before, some mounts will run faster but likely have less health and attack power than others. The counter to this, as I think Dygz said, would be a mount with snares or slows. The speedier mount, if it’s a high enough quality (reward granted to player investment) could then potentially have some escape abilities to evade those.
Your mount build will hopefully have just as much relevance in engaging in or avoiding combat as your player combat build. From that perspective, I don’t believe any of us should be scared of mounting in combat.
Should there be a brief delay for the sake of realism? Yes. Blow a whistle, it runs up to you, and you mount your steed. What’s that, three seconds? You’re vulnerable the whole time, and I think your whistle should be able to be silenced / you should be able to be stunned while mounting. If you’re smart, you’ll keep your mount with you so you don’t have to call for it and can cut that vulnerable time in half.
I like the idea that was mentioned of having a mount ability for signaling you when a flagged combatant is within a certain range. That should give you ample time to flee, if, again, you’ve invested time into the system and have a mount that can do all these things.
In that case, feels like I would want there to be a type of Mount ability we can breed for that signals when strangers enter attack range.
Oh, yes, this is what I referred to, I should probably have been more clear.
Explicitly that you have to breed the mount to have this 'Alertness' or whatever skill.
It makes sense though! Animals in our own world that are large enough to ride upon are generally pretty intelligent creatures. Even dogs, for instance, have varieties that have been selectively bred to exhibit greater social and emotional intelligence. Both for offensive purposes (hunting, military, etc) and defensive purposes (guarding) separately. In a system where we're selectively breeding large, intelligent creatures, I should think at least this much should be theoretically possible.
You really want a notification whenever another player is near you? Seems rather distracting and immersion breaking when your stag growls 20 times an hour just because there is passer-bys.
You really want a notification whenever another player is near you? Seems rather distracting and immersion breaking when your stag growls 40 times an hour just because there is passer-bys.
As for the obedience of mounted creatures, yes, they’re obedient and aren’t going to throw a total fit at the slightest suggestion of danger, but if you learn to read your mount’s language, you can come to decipher those things. Like when a pack of bandits are creeping around the woods beyond your earshot while you’re next to a crackling campfire. The horse can still hear them and may become a bit restless. It’s an animal, not a robot. Just because it’s trained to be obedient as a mount doesn’t mean it can’t express feelings of unease. You just have to be trained and acquainted with each other well enough to read the signs.