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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Jail and bounty hunter as punishment for corrupted players
Sophisticus
Member
I love all the concepts of AOC. It seems to me to be the MMORPG that the players give the freedom, possibility, responsibility and social interactions back that are missing in almost all today's MMORPG.
The only system, as far as I inform me, is the PvP Flagged system (non-combat, combat, corrupted). It will probably be a good system to punish Ganker, but I am against that the system itself (by debuffs, gradation of equipment, half-loot drop) punishes the Corrupted players. This would be an automated system, similar to BDO, that players would take responsibility and possibility to solve such problems.
Instead, I would like the punishment to be shifted to the Bounty Hunter System with the addition of a player driven jail system (similar to Archeage).
The Corrupted Player would not only have the Bounty Hunter as a punishment, but also the prison, depending on the severity of his crime.
This would bring significantly more responsibility and social interactions to the players than a currupt system that weakens you with debuffs and bounty hunters who kill you. After that there would be no consequences.
In order for all of this to work, the bounty hunters must also be rewarded very well, so that there are more bounty hunters than Ganker.
What do u guys think about that?
The only system, as far as I inform me, is the PvP Flagged system (non-combat, combat, corrupted). It will probably be a good system to punish Ganker, but I am against that the system itself (by debuffs, gradation of equipment, half-loot drop) punishes the Corrupted players. This would be an automated system, similar to BDO, that players would take responsibility and possibility to solve such problems.
Instead, I would like the punishment to be shifted to the Bounty Hunter System with the addition of a player driven jail system (similar to Archeage).
The Corrupted Player would not only have the Bounty Hunter as a punishment, but also the prison, depending on the severity of his crime.
This would bring significantly more responsibility and social interactions to the players than a currupt system that weakens you with debuffs and bounty hunters who kill you. After that there would be no consequences.
In order for all of this to work, the bounty hunters must also be rewarded very well, so that there are more bounty hunters than Ganker.
What do u guys think about that?
1
Comments
And as for BHs, yes, I'm waiting for them to reveal more about their mechanic because I definitely want them to have more impact on the overall system.
Bounty Hunting the Corrupted is a feature - yes.
It's another to have the game forcibly stop you from playing for a duration. You're paying a sub. You shouldn't be prevented from being able to play the game, just because you played the game .
I like the proposed AoC much much more.
As a jury, you can send the criminal to prison for up to 350min. Once in prison, you can either break out, do work to reduce or wait.
Most who want to continue playing would probably do work in prison. It works quickly in AA. From 350 min to 30min, for example. I think this would be sufficient punishment. Hunted by bounty hunters, killed and put into prison, where you work out his crime.
I like this idea much more than being punished automatically by a system.
A bot that can track a player's whereabouts and also manages to find and kill it? Have never heard of such good bots. Most bots access game data that are fixed. But no idea. I'm not an expert.
I hope that Intrepid would bann most of the bot and RMT users. I also think that it is not a good argument to say that you shouldn't add an idea that can be abused form bots or other exploits. Then you can also remove player-to-player trading as in BDO. This would completely prevent RMT. But AOC takes the risk, which I think is great.
Then I am right. The prison is apparently sufficient for you as a deterrent, so that you think about three times whether you kill a low lvl player ^^
Joking aside. As I said, you could reduce your time in prison. For example from 300min to 30min. I think a minimum of 30min should be enough to deter it, but at the same time not make open World PvP impossible. In addition, the prison system would only use if, for example, a corrupted player has reached a high degree of corruption.
I agree with that. I also talk more about the idea here. How much it will be punished will be shown when it is added.
If the prison work gives you benefits - you're rewarding killers. If it doesn't give you benefits - you're wasting people's time, on top of having already punished them by the current system. And if you suggest replacing the current punishment with the prison - you're just wasting their time instead of having a tangible punishment. And depending on how prison's gameplay is designed, I'd assume most hardcore PKers will find a way to automate that gameplay and won't even see it as a punishment at all.
And then, if you decide to have something like a "3 strikes and you're out" system, where the more kills you have - the higher the prison time, you're pretty much removing owPK potential. Especially if the jury can be controlled in any way (which, I assume, is the case).
In the current system, becoming a PKer means you'll either have to grind mobs while being on the run or die 1+ times and just do what you would've been doing either way to remove the XP debt. It doesn't take you out of the game and, for those people who enjoy living on the edge, it even gives more depth to the gameplay. Having a prison system would either not influence PKing at all, while just annoying people with meaningless non-gameplay tasks (if the prison time is short), or it would lead to potential removal of PKing for some people, while others do it w/o any punishment (depending on how jury is selected).
As I see it, a system-based arbitration of punishment is much better than potential abuse of the system.
The only advantage of working in prison is that you reduce your time.
Yes, it "wastes" the time of the players. And just that is the punishment that seems to all already ensure that it is a deterrent here in the forum ^^ How long you are minimally in prison can be clarified. For my standards, 30 minutes to 1 hour are daunting enough. Depending on how bad the jury looks at your crime (or how high your corruption is). If you have a very high value and the jury can be explained by the criminal and then the victim, then it is due to the jury to question eyewitnesses. This is how it is done in AA. Most of the time, the jury receives descriptions via global chat. If there are no eyewitnesses, the jury has to decide who they believe. This then leads to really entertaining discussions and communications between the players.
This system would replace the other punishments (debuffs, dropping loot).
And as I said above i so think that it is not a good argument to say that you shouldn't add an idea that can be abused or exploited from players. A Lot of Ideas in AOC Can Be Abused. Then you can thus remove player-to-player trading as in BDO. This would complete. But Aoc Takes the Risk, which I think is great.
You would have to balance the minimum and maximum time that you spend in prison. Of course. Ultimately, I am concerned with replacing this automated punishment system with a more socially interactive.
This enables the players to punish the context, which means significantly more communication and responsibility. This is a concept that fits perfectly in AOC.
Non-Combatants get the normal death penalties when they are killed in in PvP. Same death penalties as when killed by a mob.
i love this idea
But if he is then killed instead of being brought to prison, then you would have to work with debuffs and dropping loot because I think its just don't be enough as a deterrent.
I have not written this sentence that you quote. I don't know exactly how it works with quoting. Is my first post here.
Or does the criminal get auto-caught the very second they're done with their crime?
Also, how long does the jury process take and how random is the picking of said jury? What about afk people who get caught by the system? How are witnesses chosen?
To me, those all sound like a waste of my in-game time, no matter which side of the issue I'm on.
Overall, this system seem so much more flawed to me, than a simple "you did the crime and didn't get away with it? You're fairly severely punished". And if the BH system is well-designed on top of that, then you won't even get away with your crime.
The "wasted" time in prison is punishment. After you have killed some low level players, then being marked as a corrupted player, hunted by bounty hunters and being stuck in prison for, for example, minimum for 30 minutes, is there no punishment for you? Especially today, when many have little time to play an MMORPG, such a time robbery seems to me to be a very big punishment.
No, a bounty hunter would have to catch or kill you so that the bounty hunter system would be installed. Then you would be placed in front of the jury.
The length of the process depends on the jury. The faster they make a judgment, the faster the process is finished.
The jury selection is very random in AA. Every player can go to the judge Halle and register as a jury. As soon as a process starts, you are asked by the game whether you want to participate as a jury. If you accept the invitation, you will be teleported into the hall.
The jury has to decide on AFK players. That is the whole meaning behind this idea. The players should decide. Based on the amount of the corruption, the jury could decide or based on statements by the witnesses if there are any. Then the criminal missed his chance to defend himself.
In AA, the jury is looking for witnesses in the judgment chat that everyone can see on the server. Like a global chat. Sometimes there are some and sometimes not. On the basis of these statements (criminal, victims and witnesses), the jury then decides. Of course, they must weigh whether the statements are credible or not. That is all the fun for Roleplayer.
You can do that. Then u have to yield to a bounty hunter and then go to prison for a certain time. And to reduce your time in prison, you can broken a few stones or collect rat feces
You are really very focused to save time. You just don't like the idea. Just say it. It is not because the idea has weaknesses, but that you simply don't like the idea of wasting ur time. If you would like the pure idea, then you would help to think of this system instead of talking all the time of wasting time. You don't see the fun of it, so you look at it as a waste of time. Otherwise you do not have to report in the judgment chat and do not give the jury a statement. As a witness, you are not obliged to do anything.
The game cannot know whether the witness and criminals work together And it doesn't need to know either. The jury has to find out. This is all the fun. It is definitely fun for many Roleplayers and at the same time punishes criminals. It's great.
Any players who follow the jury and the judgment chat will know. At least the victim will know that something doesn't go properly. Other juries will then come (for example the victim itself) to make honest judgments themselves. So it was in AA. This system could also be built into the political system, where the mayor of a node has an eye on it and can bann players from the jury in his node. Sure, the mayor of the node could also work with the jury and the criminal, perhaps the whole guild from a node, maybe even the whole server
Q: How will you stop big mafia guilds from owning all the good dungeons and world bosses by camping them?
A: The real answer to that is going to be what traditionally happens in a non-faction-based game where politics drive player interaction... Over time you have betrayals in the mafia guild and they splinter off into two groups and join the other side or it's like weird things that can occur in that regard. So I think that's the important way that will solve itself. I don't think the developer necessarily has to step in there and say no, let's railroad this politics or let's hand hold this aspect. I think that any time you have a bully, you're going to have a counter bully and that's something that we try to encourage as part of the politics process. – Steven Sharif
Again this focus on time ^^ just play the game and have fun
In AA, every player, even those who were not part of the process, could go into the judges Halle and experience the process, or you have followed it through the jury chat.
More freedom, responsibility and possibilities in MMORPGs. We have enough automated MMORPGs that decrease the last freedom and responsibility for our own decisions. And I want this vision to be expressed in every system of AOC.
It is not "flawed ", its unpredictable. Is a huge difference.
At that point you're literally giving those "mafia" guilds the power to control who gets punished and who doesn't. The "RPers love this mechanic" is cool and all, but when a huge hardcore guild is abusing said mechanic it's no longer just an RP thing.
And I know what exactly Steven is talking about in that quote. I've been on the both sides of the "big guild crumbles under its own weight" situation, but that usually happens when there's limited resources in the game or if some party in the guild feels like they were fucked over. But I really don't see how a "sign up as a juror and keep saying everyone's innocent" order from the GL could destroy a guild But what that order would destroy is any casual's existence on the server, because the whole system would be flawed.
Afaik AA had a faction-based pvp system and you could only PK people on your own side in particular circumstances (correct me if I'm wrong), while in Ashes literally anyone can kill literally anyone else. It's not like you'd be going against your own people, but instead you could just kill whoever and then walk free because your huge guild took up the majority of jury signups.
As for time wasting, going to jail for 30 minutes is literally nothing to me if it allows me to kill dozens of people w/o any punishment. The current system is in place to minimize those exact situations, while this prison system doesn't seem to do that at all, unless you somehow control who exactly gets on the jury instead of it being purely random. And the "witness" part is still flawed because, as I said, the criminal's friends could just support him always.
As I have said several times: If you throw away any idea and system in AoC because it is susceptible to exploit or abuses, then we probably would not have a MMORPG like AoC, but again an MMORPG like any other.
Maybe there are opportunities to realize this idea, maybe not. Perhaps the players just have to stick together if such a guild are mafias. You have to fight them and take there influence. That is something that will be possible in AoC. For example: only members of the guild who own a node can become a jury. As soon as the guild loses its influence in the node, there will also bea new guild, new jury members who hopefully will not be so corrupted. I think its all up to the players. The game only has to give the players the opportunity.
Only desire for this system so you can mass pvp kill people and if you out gear people no one can stop you. And when you go to jail you just get some food, take a break for a bit and come back and do it again.
If you think the corruption system is too strong, voice your thoughts on that and through testing hopefully there will be a good balance in allowing pks and reducing griefing to the extent devs want.
The problem with BDO and AA Jails system is that it wasn't hard enough. The karma system in BDO (from which AOC's flagged system is inspired) is also not punishing enough. The idea itself can be daunting enough, you just have to implement it well.
In AA, every player had a criminal record. The jury could see how often and why this player was put into prison. So if someone kept killing innocent people, the jury has increased their time in prison. From me you can also make it 1 day in prison.
I don't think the punishments are too high. I think it's just boring to be punished in this way.
As for removal of exploitable systems, we don't necessarily need to remove them, but we should minimize the potential of those exploits. Or at least decrease their severity to the minimum. The currently proposed system already has a fairly low number of exploits, which can be minimized even further with just a few balancing touches.
The jail system seems to have much greater potential for abuse and exploitation, while providing much lesser punishment to the criminals, on top of the punishment itself being bad. The current punishment is just a multiplier on the death penalty. It doesn't change gameplay, it just provides a deterrent against those who want to go on killing sprees. The jail system would put a complete halt on any meaningful gameplay for those who PK rarely, while not being strong enough against those who want to PK often, on top of being way more abusable.
Both systems "waste" PKer's time. Except one does it in a non-gameplay-changing way, while the other just removes the player from the game. Though in the case of the latter, the removal would most likely be way more lax than the former's. Depending on balancing, the current system could set the PKer back by days worth of XP and potentially remove some of their gear, if they had enough corruption. If you had days' worth of jail time on a character - you've effectively banned a player for doing smth that the game allowed them to do. And if you give them a way to shorten that punishment greatly - you've now hasn't deterred them from doing such a thing again, because the punishment wasn't big enough.
My main point here is this: removing a player from meaningful gameplay is bad. And if you don't want your players to do smth that would warrant removal from gameplay - just don't allow them to do that thing at all.
No one:....
The whole point of jail was to give a short time period where the person wouldn't be able to grind in the zone as the zone space and amount of areas were limited so they didn't want people flagging every second. As when you flag in BDO the respawn point is like 30 seconds max from where you die.
If you want a jail for roleplaying purposes then maybe something like jailing temporarily banned accounts might be more appropriate. Although that's still unnecessary IMO.
Maybe they leave, maybe not. It depends on the players and other guilds who want to prevent Mafia Guilds influence.
Here I agree with you. The jail system have much more potential for abuse and exploitation and the current punishment not. Ultimately, it depends on whether it is worth adding such a system for the developers and players. In this case it would be worth it to me. It is even welcome by me that it is exploited. This creates the social dynamics that I want. Hopefully it will regulate itself through the players and guilds. It will of course be a constant up and down, but that is part of the vision of AOC. The current system is very static and automated. Something that does not match AoC´s conception imo.
Apart from that, I don't think such a jail system is less punishing. Depending on how long you are in jail, it is very punishing. It ultimately depends on the player-type. One feels more punished when he is taken away, the other feels more punished when he loses an item.
I also agree with this. The current system is punishing enough. I never said anything else. I just want to be punished in a different way.
You rationalize the matter too much ^^ I want the players become criminals. The jail system is there for that. Otherwise you could stay with the current system. For many players, this system could become a content that is fun while it is punishing the criminals. Win-win i guess. And just because the game is allowed to make such things that don't mean that they have to do it. We would not have to punish them either.
There are death penalties for dying.
Combatants get half the normal death penalties.
Non-combatants get normal death penalties.
Corrupted get 4x the normal death penalties.
I dunno why you are referring to a player who attacks another player as a criminal. What is criminal about that? That is fair play.
A player character who kills a Non-Combatant is a criminal punished with Corruption and 4x the normal death penalty. Sure.
We don't pee or poop or vomit in Ashes - and that's not how real life works, either.
There is no reason to have a prison system in Ashes. Steven wants us to be actively doing stuff, rather than not doing stuff. Player agency is a high values in Ashes.