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Dev Discussion #43 - World Map Discovery

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean… my gps has a marker for me on the map.

    In real life, I have 5+ senses to help orient myself.

    Dygz is right. They need to add 5+ senses to the game.

    Well, we've already got wind, with some potential for wind direction...

    But I don't feel most people will be willing to play with controllers or VR-controlled fans for the Touch one...
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Happymeal2415Happymeal2415 Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I mean… my gps has a marker for me on the map.

    In real life, I have 5+ senses to help orient myself.

    Well you still have sight and hearing in game so are you insinuating that your sense of smell is the equivalency of a map marker? :)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Limited sight and limited hearing.
    Touch and balance also help with orientation.
    Mini-maps provide more info than the primary map. New World had a compass that may have visually represented smell.

    But, no, I am explicitly stating that in real life the maps I use have a marker for me on the map.
  • ThatGuyPowersThatGuyPowers Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think having a map that does not track you would be fine you would literally just have to look at the area around you to figure out where you are on the map and would only take a few seconds useless your just bad at reading maps or lazy and need a little red dot that says you are here like a map in a mall :b
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Actually, what would be nice to see would be a Dev note some time down the track that highlights the key suggestions that reached the consideration list..
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    No minimap - but a prompt "You smell a Tulnar nearby."
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  • fetzen13fetzen13 Member, Alpha Two
    i would like when there are certain scenario's that can happen within the progression of the node that change the map so we have to somehow re discover it. Some kind of Cartography mechanic would be awesome but i am really not sure on how to execute it
  • Fog-of-war, while it sounds cool, wouldn't be much fun if it forced people into using third-party sites. My experience in this comes from EVE where the wormhole systems are unmapped. To deal with this, players use sites like https://tripwire.eve-apps.com/.

    I would like fog-of-war only if there was a convenient in-game way to share your map with anyone (or any group). If that's not on the table, then I would recommend a traditional map that, once explored, updates with the world.
  • CraikenCraiken Member
    edited July 2022
    To clarify my earlier comment - I have absolutely no problem with hiding part of the map if it's truly unknown. However, if someone has explored it and wants to share their findings with everyone, please don't make them post pictures of their map on a third-party website to do that.

    Edit: Inversely, if someone has explored part of the map and wants to keep it secret, I'm cool with that.
  • Savic ProsperitySavic Prosperity Member, Alpha Two
    My main problem for this question is usually whenever there is an issue with an in game map, a map outside the game on a website is made by players instead. If you try to combat this by making the in game map have everything you can possibly want to know can ruin the experience at the same time cause then it removes intrinsic exploration

    As for the map live updating or not... it depends on the depth of updating.
    Since I'm assuming the nodes will effect the layout of the map a little bit. should it be a different copy of the map as the node changes? Then what about your effort previously exploring a different tier. There then would need to be some sort of reward structure for exploring an area in each tier of the node (a professional line i've seen some say). Or the reverse issue, the node updating doesnt change anything significantly so then the map doesnt need to change.
    I dont think a fully static map would be a good idea just because then people will just say to use X website instead.


    most helpful is things that i liked about maps in games ->
    • mostly clouded until you've visited the area; can give small reward like character exp or more depending just to reward people for wandering around (having this account wide could be its own reward for example)
    • having some way to have the map tell you about resources you've found in that area because while playing a lot you tend to remember but if you take a break for whichever reason being able to just look at what you've done before helps getting acclimated back into the game. Easy display with the seasons it can just have "item, season" even if its found in all seasons just proof you found it during said time frame.
    • general enemy faction/race/creature type you have fought in the area. I never liked where you need an item from a monster but good luck if you remember where you found that enemy you've killed before. Basing it off an encyclopedia for things you've killed in game that links to the zone can be a good in-between
    • some sort of progress % to let you know if you're missing anything... although i think that fits single player experiences better than mmos this can be made to work if used for specific things rather than everything
    • filters, lots of filters so you can customize the map for what you want at said times


    Thus my conclusion is i have no idea what the best way to approach map vs exploration since it depends on what's in the game so there is not enough information for a hard answer.


    If you got down here through my long winded answer have a good day :blush:
  • GetPentadGetPentad Member, Alpha Two
    Looking up maps on the Wiki will kill most of the ideas here :( (Its very tragic and I don't know how to combat this, but with that being said...)

    A.) Someone else touched on the idea of Cartography as a skill that people can spec into and use to create better maps. I think that this idea is a very interesting one, albeit I have no idea how it would pan out in actually game play. But I love the idea that people can spec into the skill of mapping.

    Further dive into the functionality the skill: Cartography could work well if Cartographers would auto-fill a handful of maps as they explore (the detail and amount of the maps would vary based on cartography skill). These maps can be sold/trade to other players.

    B.) Self-Updating/Deteriorating maps would also be a fun way to use mapping. When visiting new places areas will populate with details and upon leaving, areas will gray out indicating that they might not be up-to-date. After a given amount of time (this can be played around with to get something that feels satisfying) the map will unpopulated those things that grayed, maybe 2 weeks or so. This time could also vary based on the notoriety of the map detail specifically. EG. Towns/Cities maybe be populated on the map for twice as long as a Bandit Camp, which might be there twice as long as Elite NPC in a cave, etc.
  • TatianaTatiana Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Honestly this is one of those things that I would prefer stay pretty traditional, I don't really like the idea of making maps overly complicated, there's already a great deal of depth for players in this game, navigation shouldn't be one of those things, IMO.
  • axellanselaxellansel Member
    edited July 2022
    For the map updates I think it would be kind of interesting if you actually had to visit/proxy visit to see all the updates. For example Team A is in control when you visit at a 5% tax for goods. You then head back to home node and begin to set up a route. Goes good until siege battle for the node and Team B takes over while you are away and raises it to cap of 10%. Your latest shipment gets delivered at that rate and updates information (i.e type of node whose in control, various taxes, quests in the area) on arrival. This is gives the opportunity after initial shipment to break/change trade routes. Alternatively if you're not trading, you or a fellow guildmate goes and upon arrival to the node it updates for the guild. Encourages a bit of expansion/exploration/and trade.
  • MoowellMoowell Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think a cartography skill tree is an excellent solution for a game like Ashes of Creation. Here's my train of thought for why:

    1) Realistically speaking, having a basic map of the world already exist is reasonable. There have been outposts developed in several different places before the players arrive, so it makes sense that at the very least, the topography has been explored.

    2) Basic world maps should not change because geography does not change on a less than geological time scale without serious intervention. Coastlines stay coastlines, rivers follow the path of least resistance, and mountains will probably still be there after a volcanic eruption.

    3) Anything more than that should be discovered/recorded by players. If a dungeon pops up, players should find it and update their map. If a village develops somewhere, then players should update their map. This will lead to engagement with the world.

    4) Having players set personal markers on their maps could lead to misinformation, especially if they are capable of spreading it. However, automatic updating would mean less social interaction and less personal investment in the world. Having a cartography system somewhere in the middle encourages players to pause and update the map without fear of getting something very wrong.

    5) If there is a system in place to help guide a player's cartography, there can be ways to improve the system for the player the same way they would improve any other crafting profession. For example, using better inks, paper, and pens should make a higher quality map given an equal skill level.

    6) Maps can be improved with better resolution and more detailed information. Both of these traits can be adjusted by a cartographer's level and skills during the process of making a map. This means the best maps will be made by the best crafters.

    7) Higher quality maps mean better information for the people using them. Better information leads to better decision making. For example, which route to take on a caravan. This leads to a demand for high quality maps, which leads to a demand for high tier cartographers, which leads to more people engaging in, or even specializing in, cartography as a system.

    8) If people engage in or specialize in a system, then engaging with the system should be worthwhile and have the same amount of depth as any other system where players can specialize, specifically professions in this case.
  • GimlogGimlog Member, Alpha Two
    Based on the possibility to have cartographer as job in game , I'll prefer to have the geographic area being discovered by the player and once discovered you keep it , but the localizations that in AoC can change should need a active update by buying the last map to a cartographer or updating it your self.

    I'll go further with a difference between range at which you discover land and localizations. This way cartographers could have a upgrade on there localizations range, ect.
  • SgubbySgubby Member
    edited July 2022
    Personally I prefer map to be in the game as basic. Have it be undiscovered, fild in fog of war. But when you explore the aria you remove the fog of war from the map. Like its in classic wow. However I would highly suggest you make the map discovering progress account wide. Not character wide. Make it more alt friendly.


    If players will make maps throw a profession and sell it to other players or share it knowledge with science guild within the city or something similar.:
    -One exempla where map was not part in game unless you found a map piece. Like in DayZ standalone.
    The map was hidden unless you had the map item. Players was really confused about their
    whereabout, unless you had put ton of playtime in game. You would not really recognize the land or
    aria you was in. The standard norm with the players then would just tab out of the game and use a
    world map on the website instead and totally side gate the developers intent.

    I tend to make the game easier for the overall player base with build in map and to get the feeling of exploring the would you could put in vistas / jump puzels like in gw2 and maybe even some hidden treasure/portal events like in final fantasy and lost ark instead to keep the exploring factor high. But thats just my personal view.
    Either way on what path Intrepid Studios takes. I think it will great regardless.
  • I like the traditional stuff, but I also like the innovative nature you guys have. So here's my innovative thoughts.

    It would be cool to have a map become explored based on where you go but also based on what level of cartography skill you have. Don't make it so that you enter a zone and suddenly know where everything in the zone is, rather, make it so that you enter the 'center' or 'focal point' of the zone to give you access to the zone updating your map. This could be a high vantage point, a town/village, or an npc. Npc's could also give you parts of a map (either bought or gained through conversation).

    The cartography skill would change how much detail would be in the map based on what you've seen/zone clearance. You would level this up passively or actively (5 sec skill) through exploration of the world, giving you small basic map markings at first, then becoming more fledged out with subsequent levels. Eventually, your own exploration would be more detailed than a regular map update given to you by the focal points.

    I also think it would be really cool to see cities/towns have areas in marketplaces/barracks/libraries to buy maps that are either pre generated or player generated (most up to date). Smaller zones can have just their zone's map available to buy but if you go to the main city of the zone, you could buy all the smaller pieces there. If you go to a city to update the current map and pc's buy that map, you should get some royalties as a the owner. I also think some interesting titles would have to be added to the game based on cartography.

    OK. Onto maps automatically updating once explored... I don' think that they should be unless it really is a major event that's happening/happened. For example, if you're in a town that becomes a city with you in it, that should be automatically updated. But if you're outside of the town and it becomes a city, it shouldn't be updated until you receive that information from another town/city or from an npc in the zone. And when you do receive that information, I don' think it should just fill out the city on the map for you, you should still have to go explore it yourself or buy that map in that city. I think small details like that really help drive the sense of a living, breathing, changing world to the player and makes the overall experience better.

    As for how this affects the macro of the game with it's changing nodes, I think it complements it. It doesn't give people power by just exploring everything and then always knowing what's happening in the world from then on. It creates an importance on information, which can then be managed in the game with people going around, mapping, and selling maps in hubs or just keeping that information to themselves/their guild. As for other limited time events that are core to the game, you could have those stay relevant on the map of where they are after people have 'explored' the zone, even if the zone has changed since they've been there.

    ya
  • HandOfUnityHandOfUnity Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    The general consensus from our community is that players feel the want to have the map change dynamically as part of the game, with the option to possibly interact with various areas of the map and influence their own view of the world according to what quests / achievements they have completed. Many have given examples from games which allow the player to explore the map and gain rewards, thus making the world feel more alive and possibly giving Scribes within AoC a much larger and more important role.

    In summary, A interactive map that players require effort to fully explore is preferred rather than a map which is fixed and once explored is permanently available with all the information a player would need.
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  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    please put me in the "auto-update" category
  • BreezewayBreezeway Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think it would be an amazing feature if you only knew exactly what “you know”. I think you should see the map how areas were when you discovered them, and it should only be updated either by revisiting the location, or by going to a cartographer with knowledge you gained (either from word of mouth or any other source). You would pay a small fee (to avoid people just randomly guessing things) and say you heard that a small village you past through a few days ago is now a city with a level 3 blacksmith or something like that, you could select that area and choose that it’s now a city and then other options show up for everything that could be there, i.e. jeweler, weapon smith, blacksmith, etc. and of course you would select blacksmith and the level it is. If you are correct the map updates and if you’re wrong it doesn’t.
  • Given we live in an age where everything can be googled, I would prefer for the maps to be updated in-game without me re-discovering said locations. That being said, maybe there could be a time period like an hour or so when the location would be in a "fog of war". This time period would mitigate 3rd party websites from being too useful/efficient and keep an interesting dynamic for guilds to have their members figure out what is going on in a "fog of war" location.
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think it would be cool if nodes raised to a certain level have NPCs sell different tiers of maps depending on node progress:

    Tier 1 map: 2-3 major landmarks with the centre of the town / node in the middle
    Tier 2 map: 5-6 major landmarks, general areas where certain enemy types might be found, increased range
    Tier 3 map: 7-10 major landmarks, height maps, mob locations and gathering locations, increased range
    Tier 4 map: 10 major landmarks, height maps, mobs, gathering, increased range
    Tier 5 map: all major land marks, and all previous info detailed, and some information on neighbouring nodes

    You can obviously choose to not buy the maps and just explore yourself. But I think the town hubs where information is gathered and shared would be the main place that players can go to get information. I also think making map information tied to node progress builds more of a community to work together.

    If an area has a low node value it means there's less people adventuring here which is more realistic that the information isn't as accurate and gives more feeling of an adventure and exploring the unknown.

    This also means maps can become out of date and need to be re-purchased / re-explored if a node is destroyed and the map information is no longer accurate.
  • CaracarnCaracarn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I like the idea of dynamic map in theory. I have played several games where you could change the landscape completly and always lag issues with those MMO's. I really like the idea of you can actually make some money in trading if you are an explorer. As mention above with markings or even node moving around. For example if those bigger nodes move around abit and stay at same spot for a month so it would be worth marking then and then you have to find them again.
    I first stumble over the mapmaking skill in the theorycrafting of 'Chronicles of Elyria'. I think most of the hype for that not so trustworthy MMO was just they had so many great ideas about the game so you actually wanted to see how they would pull that off. I am glad I didnt join that hype train. Anyway sidetracking. If I have to choose between more dynamic maps with unfortunate lag or stationairy maps on a big world then I would choose the later.
    If Entrepid can pull this dynamic off it opens up many interesting ideas: Special mapped Caravarns routes or even ambush spots. Big rewards for those living in the wild and discovering. Keep the discussion going.
  • loremaster_cerberusloremaster_cerberus Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Azherae wrote: »

    If I find a boss, and I mark the location of that boss and a few other things in the sub-area, I wanna be able to copy/trade/sell that map with the markings to people. Is it a lot of database space? Maybe, but not MORE than any other 'actual map stuff' I could think of that I'd care about.

    You know, this sounds really cool ... but how the heck would the sale of points of interest actually be facilitated? It'd be a no mans land - does mini-boss value go up if the surrounding area is less interesting? How about the accessibility of the terrain? Countless other potential modifiers.
    It'd be really hard to know what you were paying for - unless the price of information was standardized, somehow. Two ways you could go about that:
    #1: Price setting. Standardize note types and highlights - each sells for a set price in a given node, modified by player traffic, node development, world events, etc. Then players can buy those maps or trade them for a specific currency related to discovery and posting of their own stuff.
    #2: Profession. Specific professions for sharing maps and creating them for use by other players. Then the player base standardizes stuff in their own way free market style, with healthy regulation.


    In any case, having your maps fade over time the longer you go without visiting an area would keep the map discovery thing fresh! Node changes shouldn't appear until you buy info or actually go visit.


  • Either have a traditional map that updates itself, or make cartography a thing and make maps & information (discovered POI, "hidden" quest starting points, treasures, insides of dungeons, traps (if any) etc. etc.) tradeable. Add NPC cartographers that sell some~ level of map intel for convenience and also as a currency sink.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think the bottom line for me is that whatever cartography system they come up with has to be pretty damn good, or it's worse than not having a system at all. I've tried, but I can't really come up with a great system that I think nails it, but if Intrepid can do that, I would be all for it. If not, a traditional auto-updating map is perfectly acceptable.
  • ykkykk Member
    Nerror wrote: »
    I think the bottom line for me is that whatever cartography system they come up with has to be pretty damn good, or it's worse than not having a system at all. I've tried, but I can't really come up with a great system that I think nails it, but if Intrepid can do that, I would be all for it. If not, a traditional auto-updating map is perfectly acceptable.

    I agree with this. No reason to reinvent the wheel if all you're doing is making a shit wheel.
    astra mortemque superare gradatim
  • It would be amazing if each guild had a (team of) catographer(s) keeping their guild map up to date.
  • ChaosFactorChaosFactor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think that cartography is an INCREDIBLY fantastical artistry. Perhaps even being a service that players would have to pay for. Skill and exploration could take part in the process of producing updated maps. Those maps can then be sold to other players by the cartographer in order to upkeep their knowledge on the world around them. Changing ore veins, rare spawns, and status of nodes, etc.
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  • nvrsnvrs Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I think that having a map that is customizable and caters to each individual would be ideal. Ideally I would like to see the following.

    - 2nd monitor support for map. No more having to pull up map constantly in-game which "takes you out of game"
    - map that allows me to set my own marks, notes, etc.
    - guild map that can be used in conjunction with your own personal map.
    - unexplored areas to be hidden and areas that are out of date to have a "fog" that shows prev exploration but indicates changes have occurred
    - ability to change color of map via filters? dark mode map ayoooooooo lol

    What would a guild map entail?
    - notes and marks made by guild leader / leadership of guild.
    - this is what provides updates to map such changes on the map as it updates with every guild members movement
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