Dev Discussion #43 - World Map Discovery

hazoR · July 2022

Mixed feelings too! I guess we all would love to have an innovative way to see world maps and explore the game world. But it comes with some side effects, right?

My point on Classic maps:

I don't think we necessarily need to have a dynamic world map (erasing what you have seen to make you go there again) to afford exploration. I guess the game will have other systems to enhance the exploration and create its dynamics, alongside with the need to travel to gather resources, trade routes, cities, encounters, etc.

My point is that: Maps are supposed to give us information about stuff, what's happening, where to go, and plan our routes, so we kinda can control and decide what to do easier. One point that is in my mind is that, if it doesn't have this kind of information would it still be useful as its best? Or will it just create a trigger to visit an area that is now hidden on the map?

My point on some kind of dynamic world map:

I would love to see some dynamics in world maps, but I guess it would work best with some specific exploration system to really motivate people and create importance to the Information that a World Map is supposed to give us. Even then, this kind of information can be passed through a "metagame" (chat, discord, forum, interactive map, etc.) too, so tough question haha. There is no way to escape the meta, maybe delay it sometimes, but this kind of information will always be there

Summing up, I would love to see a dynamic map with constant change and the need to gather information, but I see it always becoming obsolete with the metagame information. Classic Maps with some small fog of war would already work really well with all the awesome and cool systems that are already planned.

Tough one, hope I could help

froustysnoman · July 2022

So many deep, well thought out suggestions! though personally, i don't think it should be a profession.
I would like to see map discovery be personal, with fog of war that appears over it as soon as your latest known info is outdated, this would actually lead the player to re-explore a location that was nearby, hyped on curiosity to the change. i think sharing map data with your 'family' or guild could be a cool feature too, but i would want it to be at least a little restricted so that you couldn't just take map data from every single person you see in a town.

an alternative thought, is that a node could construct a building, that would allow players to purchase a currently accurate map, that includes the whole ZOI of that node

Emykus · July 2022

That's quite the tough question. Having the map update automatically would be quite the quality of life thing to have. However, if players were required to update the map themselves by either investigating a zone or receiving news from others would open up some pretty interesting situations with the Node system. Seeing as I assume most Majors will be Guild Leaders, Nodes will be owned by Guilds, and not knowing who overtook who, where, and why and who's fighting who and for what would feel more immersive.

maouw · July 2022

I'd love something more interactive, but I have some reservations:

Will cartographers be able to "scry" areas?
Will scouts have summons/familiars that they can use to remotely explore areas?
Will there be counter-play to the above? In what form? (Would scouts automatically detect when they are being spied on? can we cast illusions to fool potential scryers? Can we "back ping" the scryer to find their location? Can we hunt/destroy summons/familiars?)
Would it be possible for a group of scouts to get together, and via their combined effort host a public website with a live-updated map of Verra for their server? (thus undermine the entire cartography market)

I think there's real potential for intelligence warfare here

EDIT: Also be aware that very clever people have generated maps of the entire world (like the coordinate exploit on the minecraft server 2b2t)via packet sniffing traffic to/from their client. If cryptography becomes a highly-contested mechanic of the game, this has potential to be a sore point for the game's security team.
Ashes doesn't have secret bases where people are stashing all their goods, but imagine how valuable a map of all active caravans would be?

Oddjob · July 2022

I think the fog of war concept it good for unexplored areas... Once discovered it becomes visible but with the constant changes to the world I also think players would need to revisit these areas for it to be updated.

So if they visited the area early in their adventure it would reflect the first time they visited not the current stage of the map unless they go back and revisit the area.

darthaden · July 2022

One feature I'd love to see the map have is the ability for the player to add points of interest to their map. Sometimes places a player wants to come back to aren't specific named locations. Maybe it's a spot with resources, maybe a hidden path for your caravan later down the line, maybe a spot with more density of a mob you're farming, or maybe you just like the view from a location.

Lord_Marshal · July 2022

For me, I think it would be better that the areas of the world map that we have uncovered get recovered when they change. That would show us something has changed, but not what has changed prompting us to go there and see what is going on. This is a bit more realistic than automatically knowing events as they happen.

Zayoosh · July 2022

Don't make the map a hassle, alot of people in this forum are suggesting manual markers and map crafting and while that IS immersive it is annoying for a majority of people. Let my character map, let people have waypoints and quest markers an inconvenience as large as a lack of reliable map is destined to drive away a large sect of the potential playerbase as novel as it is. additionally in the lifespan of the game eventually players will create a map for other players to simply copy or reference off the internet which is by far the most immersion breaking process I could think of, if you don't give quest markers for quest at all people will look up Youtube videos to show them where to go, while you could argue the core playerbase wouldn't and would even enjoy and appreciate these systems an mmo needs more then just the core and hardcore fans to feel alive.
tldr: just don't make the mapping or questing inconvenient id rather have a little marker then be forced to google a quest or dungeon location, as that is the single biggest immersion break that you can give.

Iridianny · July 2022

I would like maps to be required to be re-discovered as if your character is updating it. Along with that, you being able to share or sell updated maps to other players would be cool, too!

Asgerr · July 2022

I think an interesting option for the leveling of cartography as a skill and how it would affect the discovery of the world, would be to have initial maps be inaccurate.

You get the general outline of the area, but the details are rough and you may be off by a few hundred meters.

Then as more and more people map the area and your own skill evolves, then the map becomes more detailed and accurate, until you have a perfect map depicting the area exactly like it is.

Further increase of the map detail could indicate the types of mobs in that area, making it valuable for those in need of farming them.

Outrigger · July 2022

Could cartography dovetail into a caravan skill tree? Essentially an exploration skill. Not sure how the mechanics of this would work, but it could make for some players being very efficient at transporting trade goods.

NodeStone · July 2022

Asking if we wanna see different world exploration? Well that's interesting... *Actually, it may be possible to make a new craft... Cartographer*. Just don't update the world map, and instead let individual players explore it like an RTS with fog of war. Could then maybe *craft* maps and sell them. These crafted maps, when used, will be copies of what the crafter explored of certain areas, dungeons, biomes, etc at the time of exploration and will have time stamps of when they last visited that place. The player that uses these crafted maps will have their personal map updated as if they themselves explored the area at the time of the creator's experience there. Older maps will prove more unreliable as seasons pass, dungeons open/close (I think that's a thing), houses are built, and nodes are destroyed/built up. Maybe later levels of the craft let you make different maps, apparently there's like, 8. Political, physical, topographic, climatic, economic, scale, and symbol. I'd imagine a handful of economic maps would be especially valuable to aspiring craftsmen. The best maps may magically reveal where some secrets are if the season or other conditions are right.

Honestly the thought personally excites me because I LOVE the thought of exploration gameplay. Doing something valuable and adventurous without constantly fighting something? Sounds pretty awesome! This would also give many players an excuse to move away from their parent node, and make high-seas exploration seem more viable. If this was implemented, this skill could be VITAL for many large organized groups, and information is power.

This all could fall apart very easily though, as many players may just wiki-search the world map and get the general information they are looking for. Nodes, mobs, and dungeons may change with local node levels and what world server you're in, but certain resources and overall topography will always be the same.

DayzGone · July 2022

I think having a traditional map would get pretty dull after a while, especially with a living, breathing world. However, if the system is too complicated I think it would get very tedious, very quickly.

Here are my thoughts for this type of dynamic map system:

1. Have a fog-of-war style map for each major area/biome the player explores.
2. Once a major story beat in that area is completed, or the player explores all areas for that specific biome, the player is rewarded (exp) and given a base-map for that area that persists for them with no fog of war.
3. POI's that were present at the time the player explored the area are noted with icons on their map automatically in the state they were found in (Metropolis icon, cave icon, etc.).
4. The player can, through some system, send the most recent map details they just explored back to their home node. (Sending maps in a caravan/ other message system?)
5. Players have a limit on the number of maps they can send back per week to the NPC library/cartographers.
6. Other players in that home node can talk to the Library NPC to purchase the most updated map information for a specific area.
7. Maps take time to draw back at the home node. The more players that send maps of the same area successfully in a caravan, the quicker the maps are drawn and available for others to use.
8. Other players can attack the caravans, destroying the maps sent, increasing the time the map updates, or removing a map update completely.
9. A percentage of the money paid by other home-node players at the Library NPC is given as a kick-back to the explorer-player for sending updated information to the home-node.
10. All players can see when their specific map was last updated (date / time in the corner) and perhaps a vague indication that some change may have occurred since they last visited. For example, icons for certain POI's lose opacity or saturation over time (to a minimum of ~30%) until re-visited, indicating a change may have occurred. That way, players can make the choice to either go to an area with the knowledge they have, or head to the home-node library to purchase a map update.
11. As a player re-explores the map, the POI icons automatically regain opacity back to 100% if they have not changed, or update to new icons if the node has changed since the last visit.
12. Map-update costs will scale based on how many changes there have been since a player's map was last updated and how old/incomplete their map was. Players can only purchase map updates for base-maps they have unlocked.

I think having a map completed that then goes back to fog-of-war after a change won't feel great, since it feels like we're being forced to re-explore and it takes away from the completionists.

I also think this would give a pretty decent balance to folks who want to go out and explore the world to earn a little extra cash, as well as perhaps create a spy-network for keeping tabs on other nodes. It might be a good opportunity for some PVP, since some nodes may want to keep their progress hidden or off other's maps entirely. Such as a collapsed cave that a group of players have managed to excavate for new materials.

This would create a nice cash-sync (besides reparability of weapons) since only a small kick-back percentage is given to the explorer-player. You could cap how many times they are given this kick-back per map purchase.

It also gives the option for folks who don't want to purchase new maps to just go out and explore for themselves. This can be risky of course, due to other players or world-bosses they may not know are present there.

Balrog21 · July 2022

I really don't want a re-fogged map that I have to go explore again to see the changes. I've already been there and know the region. That is pigeon holing me to do something I don't want to do.
Instead, what if the player has to go a library in a metropolis to pay to get the map upgraded or buy a magical map(very pricey) that auto updates with the changes? Either way it fuels money into the economy.
Making a profession map maker is a VERY nice idea, but one for a later expansion I would guess, no scope creep!
One thing I would love to have for our map is the ability to make notes on it, not a full blown essay, but say maybe like 100 characters max per note. I think this would be very hand addition to the map and make life a lot easier for us players.
Anywho, can't wait to see what you all come up with!

Cooller · July 2022

I do not like the self-updated map. Force us to do something instead, re-discover or exchange info via science or market for golds or something.

PenguinPaladin · July 2022

Cooller wrote: »

I do not like the self-updated map. Force us to do something instead, re-discover or exchange info via science or market for golds or something.

Or for social interaction.... why do i have to walk all the way back to the node to uodate my map, when jimmy with an updated map is right here. Ill just check his map and make some notes on mine about the changes.

Yulago · July 2022

One mechanic that it is still to be developed in MMOs for exploration and world maps is a Cartography system. Maybe it is not feasible or reliable enough to be implemented in a game, but given the amount of innovations you guys are considering, maybe you could give it a tought. I envision it as a fadable world map, where the places you visited slowly fade away based on the last time you visted them. You could also develop a world map in layers where details get faded away faster them more general features on the region, which remain longer in the character "memory". It would integrate with the crafting system where characters could become Cartographers, and with a few materials like inks and parchments, they could create maps to sell and trade, and them creating a more permanent version of the world map. Thos maps could include the cartographers notes for treasures, events or rare spawns. Thus, each map from the same area would be unique, and one could "collect" different maps from different players. Thus the community could build a world map full of details by themselves, and that could also driven conflict among players, with "guilds" stealing secrets from each other, while players try to get access to their maps. Or something like that.

Optics2134 · July 2022

Goalid wrote: »

Here's my ideal for a MMORPG fog of war. I would like the library to be a big part of personal map updates. You visit an area, your personal map updates. But if you want, you can go to a scientific node library building, and update that library to more recent information you've collected. Then, others can go to that library building to update their maps as well. Or maybe you can exchange this kind of update at a tavern with another player.

For example. I go to node "X" and discover it's a level four node on June 14th at 4 pm. I know there are tier 4 minerals there as well, at quality 80%. My map then updates to tell me this information. I then leave that node, and don't visit it for over a month. My map doesn't change in its information, but unbeknownst to me there was a siege there, and it has been demolished. The minerals have also switched over to tier 3 at 60% quality. My map doesn't automatically update, but another player has been to that area recently. They generously update my local scientific node's library, and that map is now updated. Now I go to the library and can update my map for a fee, or for free if I'm a citizen. Player exploration is more important, and there's an element of imperfect information in the game that lends to the enjoyment of resource-gathering exploration. You can gain a bit of renown for updating the library maps as well, and there's a community effort to keep these community maps updated. Maybe it's even an unspoken rule that caravans must update your local maps to trade there.

I think that would be inline with what Steven has previously said he's wanted for a fog of war map system.

This is a GREAT idea!!! information is power and knowing a regions map detail is a very real-world thing.

raeyik · August 2022

I think for me the question comes down to: is the map a product of convenience or world building and immersion?

Maps of convenience are your typical map - POI become marked automatically once discovered, terrain detail becomes more detailed once explored, and event markers become known on the map. This is very user friendly and most people are probably seeking this type of thing.

World Building style maps are maps with an initial fog of war, where you yourself have to add the POI to your map, and it's a map that is NOT automatically updated with events, world boss spawns, etc. This is the type of map that leads to really cool interactions like a cartography class or information brokers who can sell "map data" like in sword art online.

I think the later would be absolutely amazing. Allowing players to create maps and have a cartography skill that gives better detail or greater tools for marking and even allowing topography eventually would be incredible. So would giving players the ability to create FALSE data points, thus allowing for reputations and subterfuge to grow as part of the dynamic world. Alas, I'm not sure if this is possible in a world where we have so much access to websites that could mine for data or players who can put together maps like in mortal online or conan exiles.

Ultimately, whatever you decide to go with, please allow for custom markers, with lots of color and shape options, even layers we can turn on or off would be a huge QOL convenience feature if the play is a map of convenience style system.

KapStoan · August 2022

Vaknar wrote: »

Dev Discussion - World Map Discovery
Would you like to see a traditional MMO world map that, once explored, updates with the ever-changing state of the world, or would you prefer to see more innovative ways of keeping maps up-to-date?

Static Map Elements:

Each account should have fog, but uncovered map areas should be uncovered account wide for all characters
Custom map Pins should be allowed with brief names / colors (no fancy iconography needed). Pins should be account wide.
In open world - map and mini-map should give terrain indicators (mountains, buildings, seasonal weather and major alterations to terrain based on seasons) and personal pins for points of interest I'm tracking, but not full corridors and travel routes
In an interior - map and mini-map should show all corridors once explored and boss rooms

Dynamic Map Elements:

Nodes should show level and Mayor
Castles should show owner and siege status
Points of interest will be published somewhere on the internet for each server, but the question will always be whether those are up to date or not. I think you may need to change your map strategy after the game is live for 6 months and you see what happens and how much information is predictable.
Since the general user base will go get maps on the internet if the information is available, might as well put this information inside the game. It is much more useful to have the information on your in-game map than having to have another screen, alt-tabbing etc.
Perhaps you can have any tavern in any node offer a purchasable map that reveals that node and the surrounding nodes and is kept up to date for 3 months. So to keep your map up to date you'll need to travel regularly. And at that point it would show all housing and dynamic elements at some high level view.
Maps could also be purchasable in bulk, and so a traveler could bring those back home and sell or give to their guildies to help them expand their maps.

BobigNasty · August 2022

A dynamic map could be a pretty neat. I like the idea of buying them at taverns. Maybe a traveler stops in at a tavern and gets paid if his map is more up to date than what’s on sale at the tavern.

It could be fun logging in and stepping into the local tavern to find out all the local gossip, map updates, bounty’s placed on players, wars declared etc..

Or maybe there’s an bulletin board posted at a crossroads, villages, town etc.. where you check for updated maps

Eradal · August 2022

The less barrier to enjoyment, the better. It should unlock automatically, but only on the character that discovers it.

PherPhur · August 2022

I'd like to see a big map that can be placed in nodes or freeholds that a guild uses to update what's changed.

What I mean is that when a player interacts with the guild map map, not only does it update that players map, it updates the guild map with things that that player discovered.

Also, if you are in a party with someone, standing next to them, and you open your map, it should update both players maps with each other. Either that or it updates both players map if they are next to each other and they both open their map.

This way guilds can have scouts, or just players who spend a lot of time exploring, be of extra value to the community. It's an opportunity to make a persons individual way of playing with systems that are already in the game, a benefit to the group, without breaking balance, immersion(it actually adds to it) or any other systems already in place, I say go for it. It also ties systems together(crafting and exploration) and adds to the actual world which is always great.

I thinkkkkk most people would consider that fun, but idk.

"have you updated your map today?"

"yea i stopped by the guild map like 30 minutes ago"

"sweet, mind if I update my map real quick"

"sure"

"oh wow, did you happen to see what was going on in the badlands when you were over there, it looks like they upgraded their node".

"no i just skimmed through the area"

"we should go check it out, if they've got a new crafting bench I want to see if I can trade someone for maple planks"

MacAttacks · August 2022

I would like to see Intrepid adopt or more dynamic minimap. My thinking is to use a standard minimap as we are used to (and hopefully in a customizable UI, if Intrepid are adamant about not allowing mods) from other MMOs but making it more dynamic and able to rely information to the player depending on where the player is, the direction the player is facing, and the elevation of the player. Use the real world mechanics of weather and FoW to relay the available information to you on the minimap.

So say I am on the plains looking over an area and spot something in the distance like a heard of elephants, and the icon pops up on the minimap and you are able to gauge the distance, from your position on the minimap to the heard of elephants or a settlement. if you change the direction you are facing and your FoW no longer can see the heard of elephants than thee icon should disappears from the minimap.

The dynamic part would come into effect if it is raining or foggy thereby limiting your FoW so the icon would then not appear until you got closer. Same with elevation. If I am on a mountain in clear weather, I should be able to extend my FoW to see more of what is going around me and be able to spot things further away.

I think that this would make great use of the in-game real world mechanics that would give a sense of scale and scope. The minimap is an important feature giving the player a sense of scale, but a static minimap where all icon are visible at all times would I feel take away the sense of immersion.

Falkath · August 2022

Having the map auto updating is the best way to keep end game interesting with guilds contesting others, pushing a zone toward an event shouldn't have to be sneaky and let other players know there might be activity over there without having to explore it or pay someone who did explore it.
The bigger down side of having to update your own map by exploring or buying maps update will be that a group of players could always avoid contest by "not telling there is an event" as soon as it starts, do it for themselves, finish it and move on to a different location to push another event while nobody is watching. For the sake of PvP and end game content don't make us run around endlessly to look for content

Taiphee · August 2022

I like the idea of having a map making skill tree.... I think it also follows what I think intrepid studios want in their game i.e. Players depending on each other to achieve a goal. In my opinion pvp/pve would be thrilling that way.... One doesn't always have to be told by the system whatever is happening in the world. But I don't mind either way.

Brewskie · August 2022

I want to see a map AI that i don't need a Add on for, i explore the area, and the map marks the nodes, the mobs, the resources and so on. Having a add on to track notes and all the goodies' sucks and leads to exploits with all the add on coding. So, world map discovery marks the map based on my progression and not to be shared with others.

Farming bots are going to show up, if you make all resource nodes mob nodes and any other type of resource including boss time based.

There needs to be Instance specific to my account, my character to allow me not to fight off the BOTS that will show up and ruing the farming experience. If i catch bots, I'm not going to police this game like i have in other MMOS. Once it becomes apparent that bots get not bans, then I'm gone, and will never come back. So, this needs to be addressed by instances for resources, bots can farm their own resources as they want, but if i see them in my space, and can't kill them to get rid of them, then as I've stated i won't play this game.

Same thing with new character creations, these bots show up in droves and mass and ruin the economy and the server stats, and the economy by posting and undercutting real players without the ability to box their accounts.

This needs to be addressed in world exploration as well.

If the only thought from the DEVS is that players will police and report, an no CSR interaction to control bots, then this game will be a not brainer for me to not play.

I'm sure a bot type player will advocate for less controls than what I'm asking for in the world reveal and exploration, but to date, every mmo that release, the farmer bots show up and ruin the map for boss kills, questing, resource farming, and end game related gear making.

Developers need to control this from the beginning.

in conclusion,
a means to map and mark the map in a UI without an addon or a using a second computer logging onto a map hack site.
a means to collect resources without hinderance from bots, or other players camping a spot for hours.
a way to instance the map for the account im on without dealing with hacks cheats and bots.
CSR interaction to deal with BOT complaints.

If these issues are not addressed, world discovery and advancement and end game farming will be severely impacted and a game breaker.

Thanks for reading this, and addressing thse issues as you see fit.

Brewskie

The_Gaming_Butler · August 2022

I put a lot of thought into this, and read some of the other comments here.

In the end, for me, I'd rather the map not be something I fight with; or something that creates barriers in the game.

I'm also saying this from a place of not knowing what the other options are. Perhaps if presented with these other design ideas, I could offer better input, or render a final judgement. Without knowing more, I have to default to that which is easy to use, and doesn't create resistance to engaging with the game.

Curious to hear more though.

Neskartu · August 2022

This is a great question.

On the one hand, a regular map that auto-updates is a little boring for a game as dynamic as Ashes.

On the other hand, getting too fancy and complicated could hurt the UX of the map system. There are a lot of systems to learn and navigate, so I would love to see integration with other systems, as others have suggested. For example, using Libraries as repositories of map points; guild repositories for sharing discoveries; selling/trading map sections to others in taverns, etc.

Either way, what's most important is that the maps are highly customizable with many options for markers, waypoints, etc. in both permanent and temporary varieties. We need to be able to track every possible thing imaginable on our maps without mods or addons. Bonus points for making our permanent markings look and feel the same as game-generated features. This game will rely heavily on exploration and pathfinding, so we need the tools to label roads, passes through the mountains, peaks with a good vantage point, ambush areas, the future site of our personal home, etc.

Another key point is that the decisions around map design will have a strong impact on how easy it will be to run a BOT that automatically farms resources. Please put careful consideration into how to dissuade/make it harder for the BOTs to navigate and autofarm. Nothing ruins an MMO like BOTs.

Vaknar · August 2022

Ralizek wrote: »

A few things:

If Steven has said several times that Verra is flat, why the constant use of globes?

"The Verran planet is not flat. You may not see a curvature on the horizon in this, but from a lore perspective the universe in Verra does adhere to some basic physics and laws of physics that we experience in the real world, which means it is not flat" - Steven Sharif

Verra is in fact NOT flat, nor has Steven said it was. In-game, you will not see the planet's curvature and there will not be world-wrapping. With that said, in terms of lore, Verra is a planet and similarly to Earth, a globe ^_^ I hope this clears up any misunderstandings!

Dev Discussion #43 - World Map Discovery

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