Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Intrepid should be careful on taking everyone's feedback and here is why

LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited July 30 in General Discussion
Gamers don't usually know what they are talking about or what they want. Most people that are happy with something don't bother saying they are happy - Everyone that doesn't like something will complain about it - and this can be an issue when they open threads asking for feedback.

A few months back some people complained about the Orcs, Intrepid changed it, now other people are complaining about it saying they liked the old ones more, if they change it again (I hope not, it's looking amazing) I guarantee there will still be people complaining about it.

People don't understand that green is not the only skin only - that the face is just a base model - that the body will be customizable or that intrepid is planning to have a Solid character creator... yet they give feedback asking for changes.

I believe Intrepid can make a good game, but I have no faith in gamers, everyone wants something different, this goes for all the other design aspects, especially combat, I want Intrepid to just pick something and move forward, I would hate to see Ashes end up being a Frankenstein of a game that tried to make everyone happy but ended up making no one happy.
oficial-baner2.png
Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
«1

Comments

  • VurrghVurrgh Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    This is quite a strange post. All excellent products are a mix between what customers say they want and what do they need. The job of the creator is to find the best possible balance between the two. On one hand, it seems you doubt Intrepid is able to do that, on the other hand it sounds like you already gave your feedback and now you are trying to prevent others from doing so as well.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vurrgh wrote: »
    This is quite a strange post. All excellent products are a mix between what customers say they want and what do they need. The job of the creator is to find the best possible balance between the two. On one hand, it seems you doubt Intrepid is able to do that, on the other hand it sounds like you already gave your feedback and now you are trying to prevent others from doing so as well.

    New World is a mix of what customers said they want, they tried to make everyone happy, look how that project ended up being. We are 6 years into development and we are giving feedback on basic attacks and race appearance.

    I was OK with the first version of the orcs, I'm ok with this one as well - my concern is that intrepid doesn't know what They want, and they are just throwing things at the wall trying to see what sticks based on feedback from players that also don't know what they want.
    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • The job of a product developer is to obtain the desires of their target audience, and through their professional experience with the reception similar products have had in the past, realistic understanding of their production capacity, and holistic perspective of the product systems and intended functions, exercise appropriate judgement to maximize customer satisfaction.

    This is not the same as looking at every forum post and mashing them all together to try and please everyone. Whether or not Intrepid is able to stand by a functional product that performs well in a holistic way and offers an optimal degree of player choice while not stepping on its own toes will come down to the strength of Steven's convictions about the mission of the project and the development team's ability to execute that mission as a collective.

    Everything I've seen from this team over the past five years suggests that those elements are well beyond any threshold of concern. You are, of course, entitled to believe otherwise. But I wouldn't worry yourself.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sometimes... the answer is, "No."
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Intrepid has a clear vision for its games and its systems. The feedback on the look of certain races and the feel of the combat is a mandatory step for the game to meet the player's needs and desires.

    Every other feedback from Dev Discussions, forums and reddit are taken, dissected and distilled into essential issues and qualms which the team at Intrepid then decides whether to act on or not, and how so.

    Intrepid knows what they want. My concern is that it sounds like they thought some of the feedback you disagree on, and are acting like Intrepid are some vacuous entity just doing what everyone else tells them to.

    You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

    Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
    The focus on PvP
    The alienation of single player PvErs
    The node system
    The open world vs instancing debate
    The sieges
    Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
    Monetization and cosmetics

    Etc.

    So as you can see, these are all core systems that Intrepid has a clear direction on. The look of the Ren'Kai is the least of the concerns and issues, and right now the new concept art for them looks vastly better than what the old 3D model showed (especially in the nose department)
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The New World alpha players I know say that the devs ignored what the testers asked for.
    The former New World dev I know says the same thing.

    The original plan for a PvP game was more of a gankfest than anticipated, so someone told them to implement PvE quests at the last minute. But, the quest designers did not even have decent tools for that.
    And, still the devs did not listen much to PvE quest feedback, either.
    That's what I was told.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Sometimes... the answer is, "No."

    @Dygz We all know that in order to get a "yes" from you, I'd have to open a thread saying I want some carebear PvE Solo Noob friendly RP content with some oversexualized bikini armor :D
    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Asking for feedback is good.

    AoC has an ideal vision of what the game should feel like. The main concepts and ideas are all explained in the wiki. There are points that Steven has been clear won't be compromised: crafted gear is best; no class can do everything; legendaries should feel legendary.

    Getting feedback to make sure the way they are implementing features to reach this vision should be encouraged.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Asgerr wrote: »
    You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

    Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
    The focus on PvP
    The alienation of single player PvErs
    The node system
    The open world vs instancing debate
    The sieges
    Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
    Monetization and cosmetics

    That's a good point, and that's why I'm still here following the project, I just want to express my concerns so If things ever go south, at least I know I tried :)

    after watching train wreck in New World when the players and their feedback turned a promising survival game into a freak of an MMORPG... it's hard not to worry about it
    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • AidanKDAidanKD Member
    Tbh with the renkai example the overall concensus is still positive i would say. You just do some scraping for the common positive and negative occurrences and combine with your own design goals to try and make the optimal product.

    You wont always smash it but we have learnt that when intrepid asks for feedback and acts on it, for the most part they have honestly nailed it!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Liniker wrote: »
    I was OK with the first version of the orcs, I'm ok with this one as well - my concern is that intrepid doesn't know what They want, and they are just throwing things at the wall trying to see what sticks based on feedback from players that also don't know what they want.
    LMAO
    Last year, when people were whining about the appearance of the Dunir and how they needed to be changed to be wider and more stout, I said they should not expect them to get much wider because that means they will also have to adjust the gear they've already modeled. They will also have to adjust how they relate to furniture and mounts, etc.
    I said if they do make them significantly wider - expect a significant delay for Alpha 2. And, if they go ahead and make changes to these changes to the Dunir, expect them to be making a bunch of other changes as well. So... think about how changing the Dunir is going to delay the release.

    And... we see that, yes, people are happy with the changes to the Dunir. (Although, I have a feeling they are still tiny in height - we need to see them in game next to other races.)
    But, they've also switched to UE5 and taken time to signifcantly change all the other races as well.

    So, yes, while the devs want to create their game based on the feedback of their fans during development... people should keep in mind that making significant changes will also delay the release.
    And Steven is horrible at anticipating delays to the schedule. Especially because he's a perfectionist.
    (Which is why we still don't have Nodes 3. And also why, 3 years later, we still don't even have the final two articles for Know Your Nodes.)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 30
    Liniker wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Sometimes... the answer is, "No."

    @Dygz We all know that in order to get a "yes" from you, I'd have to open a thread saying I want some carebear PvE Solo Noob friendly RP content with some oversexualized bikini armor :D
    LMAO
    Has nothing to do with getting a yes from me.
    I said the exact same thing as Sendgarden... in just 5 words.
    http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Prayer No.htm
  • WarthWarth Member
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Intrepid has a clear vision for its games and its systems. The feedback on the look of certain races and the feel of the combat is a mandatory step for the game to meet the player's needs and desires.

    Every other feedback from Dev Discussions, forums and reddit are taken, dissected and distilled into essential issues and qualms which the team at Intrepid then decides whether to act on or not, and how so.

    Intrepid knows what they want. My concern is that it sounds like they thought some of the feedback you disagree on, and are acting like Intrepid are some vacuous entity just doing what everyone else tells them to.

    You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

    Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
    The focus on PvP
    The alienation of single player PvErs
    The node system
    The open world vs instancing debate
    The sieges
    Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
    Monetization and cosmetics

    Etc.

    So as you can see, these are all core systems that Intrepid has a clear direction on. The look of the Ren'Kai is the least of the concerns and issues, and right now the new concept art for them looks vastly better than what the old 3D model showed (especially in the nose department)

    @Asgerr
    you forgot Family Summoning,
    DPS Meters,
    and the inability to equip 2 shields
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Liniker wrote: »
    Gamers don't usually know what they are talking about or what they want.

    If I assume you’re a gamer, can you see how your opening statement is self-defeating? 🤪

    As with any product, there is an art to blending where the team wants to go, where your customer wants to go, and where the market is today and trending tomorrow. You’re not going to nail it every single time - which is why iterative development is incredibly powerful to make adjustments as you learn more in each of those dimensions.

    Intrepid doesn’t nail it all the time. But I don’t think the appropriate response is ‘ignore the customer.’

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 30
    They are always asking for our feedback. All the time. That's a good thing that we should reward by giving it to them. If they stop listening to said feedback, players will stop providing it (as much), which will harm the game way more than them not always getting things perfect in the first round of changes.
  • SchmukySchmuky Member
    I dont agree with this post at all. Saying that we don't know what what we want is honestly, childish. I know what my "dream" game is like. I have no idea how to make it, but I can tell which systems are good and which aren't because i spend years playing MMOs.

    A company with your mentally is Blizzard. Thats how they act, as if only they know what is a good system for a game. Which is why WoW went from 10 mil players to 1 mil players.

    The way intrepid is doing it is best. Ask for feedback and do dev discussions, centralize the data and see how much is valid, how much is possible and then implement it.

    The thing is, there are many players that play for many different reasons. Someone that wants to raid everyday will have one point of view, someone that wants heavy RP will have another. And they will disagree a lot. The job of intrepid is to filter out the noise from both and figure out how to make a game that is satisfying for both.

    You gave NW as an example. NW had a fundamental problem bc the devs had no idea what they wanted the game to be. Hardcore PvP with full loot? Relaxed themepark? They changed the core of the game, what, 1 year before launch?

    To fix your "problem", give feedback when you like something and when you don't like something. The more people do it like that, the better the game.
    v47zflw1muw1.jpg
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lots of good points here - I changed the title from "stop" to "be careful" to better reflect the message I am trying to send :)

    My concern remains on how they will keep balancing the amount of feedback they take, as I feel like it's a bit late into development to be taking feedback and making constant changes in things such as race appearance and basic attacks, but as many of you pointed out, I agree that it is positive to listen to your community as well.
    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 30
    Schmuky wrote: »
    I dont agree with this post at all. Saying that we don't know what what we want is honestly, childish. I know what my "dream" game is like. I have no idea how to make it, but I can tell which systems are good and which aren't because i spend years playing MMOs.

    I remember when everyone asked for dungeon finders and flying mounts in WoW - Blizzard added that, and later on people realized those things hurt the game, I could share many other similar examples that goes to show that taking feedback from the majority is Dangerous

    and no, gamers in general don't know what they want and you can read around these forums to see the amount of people with completely wrong information that don't even bother doing some basic research giving feedback asking for changes on systems they don't understand

    and if you think most players Know what they are talking about when giving feedback, maybe you are part of the group of people that say things such as "I want full loot pvp" or "remove pvp" in a pvx game like Ashes.

    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • edited July 30
    OP, did you watch the Livestream yesterday? Steven did say "I always tell my designers to never marry your designs". And I believe he's taking that into account when he asks community for feedback. He doesn't take the feedback to heart and only looking to hear what the community has to say and what they feel about it. No one on this platform is on here bashing designs. Majority of us are giving constructive feedback. :)

    As a creative myself. THE AMOUNT OF TIMES and REVISIONS i've done to clients is insane, to the point i want to pull my hair out. But they are the ones paying for my service.

    So there's nothing wrong with giving feedback to Intrepid, because we are the client they are trying to make happy with the final product. Tbh, the goal is to find that sweetspot of creating a final product that you are proud of, yet a product your client loves too.



    Another note, as someone who plays Elder Scrolls Online A LOT. Zenimax (the company behind the game) is doing the exact opposite of what Intrepid is doing. They ask for feedback from community but completely ignores it and does it their own way. Which is why ESO is a failed product and there's 0 trust from community.
    Empyrean - The Superior Race
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    To me, developers need to be the one that work out how each system functions, and how various systems interact with each other.

    Players are generally not in a position to hold intelligent opinions on things like this, as most people do not consider the impact a change to one system would require on other aspects of the game. All you need to do is glance at tab vs action discussion to see that people dont realize the changes that this decision forces on the rest of the game.

    Once those foundation level decisions are made, it's all good asking players for feedback on things like animations or racial models, because changes to these things literally have no impact at all on any other aspect of the game.

    Basically, if it matters, developers should learn in their knowledge, educations and experience. If a thing is superfluous, by all means ask around for opinions.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Think this kind of thing depends feedback is good as it gives a general idea of what people want and if they are going in the right direction. The people that gives input or want things to change has to be looked at on the types of people and if things are overly like a echo chambers, and the number of people giving said feedback. It is good they push to get more people to give feedback so they can get a larger sample pool though it is difficult to get so many people giving input as most just want to play the final release or it being closer tor release at least. Why own guild might check the forum if i link things every so often but they won't really actively join and talk about things they like or not or give feedback, which is the case for most people.

    As long as they keep to their vision, see the feedback and understand it and know what they need to do to make the game they want without reducing it to meet all random request from people. Something we saw in the combat stream where Steven mentioned things need to work for pvp as well and didn't want to overly slow movement when you are in combat.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Intrepid is mostly doing it right so I don't have any problems either.

    You start from telling the community "This is what we as the planners and developers want, here are our goals and here are the reasons". This is Steven's project, after all, it's not 'a thing that he has to do the way some stakeholders want'.

    Then you take feedback on how much to tweak it, or to figure out if a massive amount of your core audience dislikes something that you took for granted but aren't strongly committed to as a design goal/core.

    Character appearances are unlikely to be a strongly committed design goal/core.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • I think they are going down a good path of taking player feedback seriously since it builds community loyalty. I made a lot of comments about the art style and now they are making changes to it that are finally making me feel excited to play the game.
    It seems they are capable of deciphering what feedback enhances their goals and vision of the game and what doesn't fit it. It doesn't seem like they are going to do something that will go against that vision just to appease one group of players and instead give everyone a game they can enjoy regardless.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You must realize that iteration happens. As they said, the first model never makes it in. Its a step by step process. It always is one.

    First attempt, too "realistic" and not what i want

    Second attempt "too cartoony" and not what others want.

    Its a step by step progression. We're seeing ashes in actual development, not just a port over. Dont assume anything is set in stone you're just going to dissapoint yourself when it changes, even if that change is tiny.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Otr wrote: »
    ... Dont assume anything is set in stone you're just going to disappoint yourself when it changes, even if that change is tiny.
    Hard to follow this advice, when you like something but changes.

    Yes, but its probably going to be some back and forth in the design. This second iteration will get its feed back, people will voice how they liked the old one, and the end design will end up somewhere in between, or something new anyway. Its a base model, as long as the character creator is done right, it shouldnt hold that much weight.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    People need to remember you can heavily adjust the proportions and such.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So, when I say gamers are stupid, don't know what they want and don't research/understand a game before giving feedback - this is what I'm talking about

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/53127/my-guess-is-that-there-is-money-in-the-game#latest
    oficial-baner2.png
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    The New World alpha players I know say that the devs ignored what the testers asked for.
    The former New World dev I know says the same thing.

    The original plan for a PvP game was more of a gankfest than anticipated, so someone told them to implement PvE quests at the last minute. But, the quest designers did not even have decent tools for that.
    And, still the devs did not listen much to PvE quest feedback, either.
    That's what I was told.

    hard to cram an entire game of pve content in the last 2 months of development or something since they already gave a release date before Pve players cried about getting ganked to much i guess but yeah they probaly should of stayed with there sight and they might have more member today than they do now :p
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Liniker wrote: »
    So, when I say gamers are stupid, don't know what they want and don't research/understand a game before giving feedback - this is what I'm talking about.

    Sheesh - that thread is a hot mess. Not sure that's a 'gamer' problem, though. I don't think Intrepid will have a problem seeing the obvious there and ignoring it accordingly.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    So, when I say gamers are stupid, don't know what they want and don't research/understand a game before giving feedback - this is what I'm talking about.

    Sheesh - that thread is a hot mess. Not sure that's a 'gamer' problem, though. I don't think Intrepid will have a problem seeing the obvious there and ignoring it accordingly.

    There's no indication in that thread that the poster didn't research the game (much more indication that they did, more than most do), not a ton of indication that they don't understand the game, and not much that one can consider 'feedback', it's just them complaining that the game is 'going to fail' because things aren't done the way they think solves a problem.

    A real problem, for which they offer a real solution that a lot of people just wouldn't like.

    If you told me that I had a very binary choice between 'this game has zero actual currency' and 'this game has a currency that can be directly converted from time spent and optional currency sinks' I'd definitely have to think about it, and I don't think I'd pick the second one.

    In this case, even if you dislike the way the argument is made, or the basis of it, it doesn't imply either of the things you said, so as usual I consider it better to leave it to Intrepid to decide if they care about anything said by a person who basically goes 'Aww this game doesn't do thing I like/think is necessary, that sucks it's gonna fail'.

    But that's a matter of comparing the person's ideals and goals to Steven's/the team's, not a matter of 'this person is stupid and doesn't know what they want'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
Sign In or Register to comment.