Intrepid should be careful on taking everyone's feedback and here is why

Gamers don't usually know what they are talking about or what they want. Most people that are happy with something don't bother saying they are happy - Everyone that doesn't like something will complain about it - and this can be an issue when they open threads asking for feedback.

A few months back some people complained about the Orcs, Intrepid changed it, now other people are complaining about it saying they liked the old ones more, if they change it again (I hope not, it's looking amazing) I guarantee there will still be people complaining about it.

People don't understand that green is not the only skin only - that the face is just a base model - that the body will be customizable or that intrepid is planning to have a Solid character creator... yet they give feedback asking for changes.

I believe Intrepid can make a good game, but I have no faith in gamers, everyone wants something different, this goes for all the other design aspects, especially combat, I want Intrepid to just pick something and move forward, I would hate to see Ashes end up being a Frankenstein of a game that tried to make everyone happy but ended up making no one happy.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

apparat

This is quite a strange post. All excellent products are a mix between what customers say they want and what do they need. The job of the creator is to find the best possible balance between the two. On one hand, it seems you doubt Intrepid is able to do that, on the other hand it sounds like you already gave your feedback and now you are trying to prevent others from doing so as well.

Liniker

Vurrgh wrote: »

This is quite a strange post. All excellent products are a mix between what customers say they want and what do they need. The job of the creator is to find the best possible balance between the two. On one hand, it seems you doubt Intrepid is able to do that, on the other hand it sounds like you already gave your feedback and now you are trying to prevent others from doing so as well.

New World is a mix of what customers said they want, they tried to make everyone happy, look how that project ended up being. We are 6 years into development and we are giving feedback on basic attacks and race appearance.

I was OK with the first version of the orcs, I'm ok with this one as well - my concern is that intrepid doesn't know what They want, and they are just throwing things at the wall trying to see what sticks based on feedback from players that also don't know what they want.

Sengarden

The job of a product developer is to obtain the desires of their target audience, and through their professional experience with the reception similar products have had in the past, realistic understanding of their production capacity, and holistic perspective of the product systems and intended functions, exercise appropriate judgement to maximize customer satisfaction.

This is not the same as looking at every forum post and mashing them all together to try and please everyone. Whether or not Intrepid is able to stand by a functional product that performs well in a holistic way and offers an optimal degree of player choice while not stepping on its own toes will come down to the strength of Steven's convictions about the mission of the project and the development team's ability to execute that mission as a collective.

Everything I've seen from this team over the past five years suggests that those elements are well beyond any threshold of concern. You are, of course, entitled to believe otherwise. But I wouldn't worry yourself.

Dygz

Sometimes... the answer is, "No."

Asgerr

Intrepid has a clear vision for its games and its systems. The feedback on the look of certain races and the feel of the combat is a mandatory step for the game to meet the player's needs and desires.

Every other feedback from Dev Discussions, forums and reddit are taken, dissected and distilled into essential issues and qualms which the team at Intrepid then decides whether to act on or not, and how so.

Intrepid knows what they want. My concern is that it sounds like they thought some of the feedback you disagree on, and are acting like Intrepid are some vacuous entity just doing what everyone else tells them to.

You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
The focus on PvP
The alienation of single player PvErs
The node system
The open world vs instancing debate
The sieges
Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
Monetization and cosmetics

Etc.

So as you can see, these are all core systems that Intrepid has a clear direction on. The look of the Ren'Kai is the least of the concerns and issues, and right now the new concept art for them looks vastly better than what the old 3D model showed (especially in the nose department)

Dygz

The New World alpha players I know say that the devs ignored what the testers asked for.
The former New World dev I know says the same thing.

The original plan for a PvP game was more of a gankfest than anticipated, so someone told them to implement PvE quests at the last minute. But, the quest designers did not even have decent tools for that.
And, still the devs did not listen much to PvE quest feedback, either.
That's what I was told.

Liniker

Dygz wrote: »

Sometimes... the answer is, "No."

@Dygz We all know that in order to get a "yes" from you, I'd have to open a thread saying I want some carebear PvE Solo Noob friendly RP content with some oversexualized bikini armor

MaiWaifu

Asking for feedback is good.

AoC has an ideal vision of what the game should feel like. The main concepts and ideas are all explained in the wiki. There are points that Steven has been clear won't be compromised: crafted gear is best; no class can do everything; legendaries should feel legendary.

Getting feedback to make sure the way they are implementing features to reach this vision should be encouraged.

Liniker

Asgerr wrote: »

You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
The focus on PvP
The alienation of single player PvErs
The node system
The open world vs instancing debate
The sieges
Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
Monetization and cosmetics

That's a good point, and that's why I'm still here following the project, I just want to express my concerns so If things ever go south, at least I know I tried

after watching train wreck in New World when the players and their feedback turned a promising survival game into a freak of an MMORPG... it's hard not to worry about it

AidanKD

Tbh with the renkai example the overall concensus is still positive i would say. You just do some scraping for the common positive and negative occurrences and combine with your own design goals to try and make the optimal product.

You wont always smash it but we have learnt that when intrepid asks for feedback and acts on it, for the most part they have honestly nailed it!

Dygz

Liniker wrote: »

I was OK with the first version of the orcs, I'm ok with this one as well - my concern is that intrepid doesn't know what They want, and they are just throwing things at the wall trying to see what sticks based on feedback from players that also don't know what they want.

LMAO
Last year, when people were whining about the appearance of the Dunir and how they needed to be changed to be wider and more stout, I said they should not expect them to get much wider because that means they will also have to adjust the gear they've already modeled. They will also have to adjust how they relate to furniture and mounts, etc.
I said if they do make them significantly wider - expect a significant delay for Alpha 2. And, if they go ahead and make changes to these changes to the Dunir, expect them to be making a bunch of other changes as well. So... think about how changing the Dunir is going to delay the release.

And... we see that, yes, people are happy with the changes to the Dunir. (Although, I have a feeling they are still tiny in height - we need to see them in game next to other races.)
But, they've also switched to UE5 and taken time to signifcantly change all the other races as well.

So, yes, while the devs want to create their game based on the feedback of their fans during development... people should keep in mind that making significant changes will also delay the release.
And Steven is horrible at anticipating delays to the schedule. Especially because he's a perfectionist.
(Which is why we still don't have Nodes 3. And also why, 3 years later, we still don't even have the final two articles for Know Your Nodes.)

Dygz

Liniker wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Sometimes... the answer is, "No."

@Dygz We all know that in order to get a "yes" from you, I'd have to open a thread saying I want some carebear PvE Solo Noob friendly RP content with some oversexualized bikini armor

LMAO
Has nothing to do with getting a yes from me.
I said the exact same thing as Sendgarden... in just 5 words.
http://www.daily-bible-study-tips.com/Prayer No.htm

Warth

Asgerr wrote: »

Intrepid has a clear vision for its games and its systems. The feedback on the look of certain races and the feel of the combat is a mandatory step for the game to meet the player's needs and desires.

Every other feedback from Dev Discussions, forums and reddit are taken, dissected and distilled into essential issues and qualms which the team at Intrepid then decides whether to act on or not, and how so.

Intrepid knows what they want. My concern is that it sounds like they thought some of the feedback you disagree on, and are acting like Intrepid are some vacuous entity just doing what everyone else tells them to.

You have a forum-worth of threads of things people dislike about the direction of the game, and yet Intrepid has stayed the course and isn't interested in changing directions over the comments of certain players. Such topics include but are not limited to:

Name of archetypes (poor Tank can't catch a break)
The focus on PvP
The alienation of single player PvErs
The node system
The open world vs instancing debate
The sieges
Fast travel and flying mounts being rare if not inexistant
Monetization and cosmetics

Etc.

So as you can see, these are all core systems that Intrepid has a clear direction on. The look of the Ren'Kai is the least of the concerns and issues, and right now the new concept art for them looks vastly better than what the old 3D model showed (especially in the nose department)

@Asgerr
you forgot Family Summoning,
DPS Meters,
and the inability to equip 2 shields

CROW3

Liniker wrote: »

Gamers don't usually know what they are talking about or what they want.

If I assume you’re a gamer, can you see how your opening statement is self-defeating? 🤪

As with any product, there is an art to blending where the team wants to go, where your customer wants to go, and where the market is today and trending tomorrow. You’re not going to nail it every single time - which is why iterative development is incredibly powerful to make adjustments as you learn more in each of those dimensions.

Intrepid doesn’t nail it all the time. But I don’t think the appropriate response is ‘ignore the customer.’

Nerror

They are always asking for our feedback. All the time. That's a good thing that we should reward by giving it to them. If they stop listening to said feedback, players will stop providing it (as much), which will harm the game way more than them not always getting things perfect in the first round of changes.

Schmuky

I dont agree with this post at all. Saying that we don't know what what we want is honestly, childish. I know what my "dream" game is like. I have no idea how to make it, but I can tell which systems are good and which aren't because i spend years playing MMOs.

A company with your mentally is Blizzard. Thats how they act, as if only they know what is a good system for a game. Which is why WoW went from 10 mil players to 1 mil players.

The way intrepid is doing it is best. Ask for feedback and do dev discussions, centralize the data and see how much is valid, how much is possible and then implement it.

The thing is, there are many players that play for many different reasons. Someone that wants to raid everyday will have one point of view, someone that wants heavy RP will have another. And they will disagree a lot. The job of intrepid is to filter out the noise from both and figure out how to make a game that is satisfying for both.

You gave NW as an example. NW had a fundamental problem bc the devs had no idea what they wanted the game to be. Hardcore PvP with full loot? Relaxed themepark? They changed the core of the game, what, 1 year before launch?

To fix your "problem", give feedback when you like something and when you don't like something. The more people do it like that, the better the game.

Liniker

Lots of good points here - I changed the title from "stop" to "be careful" to better reflect the message I am trying to send

My concern remains on how they will keep balancing the amount of feedback they take, as I feel like it's a bit late into development to be taking feedback and making constant changes in things such as race appearance and basic attacks, but as many of you pointed out, I agree that it is positive to listen to your community as well.

Liniker

Schmuky wrote: »

I dont agree with this post at all. Saying that we don't know what what we want is honestly, childish. I know what my "dream" game is like. I have no idea how to make it, but I can tell which systems are good and which aren't because i spend years playing MMOs.

I remember when everyone asked for dungeon finders and flying mounts in WoW - Blizzard added that, and later on people realized those things hurt the game, I could share many other similar examples that goes to show that taking feedback from the majority is Dangerous

and no, gamers in general don't know what they want and you can read around these forums to see the amount of people with completely wrong information that don't even bother doing some basic research giving feedback asking for changes on systems they don't understand

and if you think most players Know what they are talking about when giving feedback, maybe you are part of the group of people that say things such as "I want full loot pvp" or "remove pvp" in a pvx game like Ashes.

TheDarkSorcerer

OP, did you watch the Livestream yesterday? Steven did say "I always tell my designers to never marry your designs". And I believe he's taking that into account when he asks community for feedback. He doesn't take the feedback to heart and only looking to hear what the community has to say and what they feel about it. No one on this platform is on here bashing designs. Majority of us are giving constructive feedback.

As a creative myself. THE AMOUNT OF TIMES and REVISIONS i've done to clients is insane, to the point i want to pull my hair out. But they are the ones paying for my service.

So there's nothing wrong with giving feedback to Intrepid, because we are the client they are trying to make happy with the final product. Tbh, the goal is to find that sweetspot of creating a final product that you are proud of, yet a product your client loves too.

Another note, as someone who plays Elder Scrolls Online A LOT. Zenimax (the company behind the game) is doing the exact opposite of what Intrepid is doing. They ask for feedback from community but completely ignores it and does it their own way. Which is why ESO is a failed product and there's 0 trust from community.

Noaani

To me, developers need to be the one that work out how each system functions, and how various systems interact with each other.

Players are generally not in a position to hold intelligent opinions on things like this, as most people do not consider the impact a change to one system would require on other aspects of the game. All you need to do is glance at tab vs action discussion to see that people dont realize the changes that this decision forces on the rest of the game.

Once those foundation level decisions are made, it's all good asking players for feedback on things like animations or racial models, because changes to these things literally have no impact at all on any other aspect of the game.

Basically, if it matters, developers should learn in their knowledge, educations and experience. If a thing is superfluous, by all means ask around for opinions.

Child Item