Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I'm obviously basing this purely on my experience in L2, where the majority of people would just run past the lower lvl parts of a location w/o disturbing the people who were farming them. While there were definitely cases where if someone saw a flagged player there they'd immediately attack them, in my experience those were somewhat rare purely because that'd be a loss of resources (hp/mana/cd/pots) or it would just be more dangerous to be flagged when you finally reach your preferred spot.
And like you said, considering that those fields will probably be quite barren, I really don't see why people would care about the weaklings that populate them.
Fear not! For I am here!
Note, I do not speak Korean, I have a language deconstructor though.
The word used is closer to 'plains' in the standard understanding, for those who care.
I would figure they would care about the ability of a target opponent to 'escape into a Safe Zone'.
I always thought this was the thing people cared about in this case. 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction' (as opposed to just having a consequence or penalty).
But yeah, I definitely see how that might be an issue, though I think its severity would depend on how far you gotta go from a POI to reach the safe zone. If it's right outside the dungeon entrance or the open world POI is super small then there definitely might be some issues with that.
Well, from the video, they really leaned into the verticality. The dungeon they showed seemed to be at least 7 'full levels' deep. No way you're getting to a fully safe zone from anywhere deeper than level 2 without someone being able to stop you, bird transformation or not.
Also seriously? Hours?
I guess I shouldn't be surprised given my FG opponents though, so nvm...
Here's even a stream of nearly 2 hours of pvping there
There are tons of great ideas in TL. But keep in mind that on this forum there is a minority of talkative people who will enjoy automatically rejecting any proposal. It is the childish culture of contradiction.
I love the idea of varying levels of corruption depending on whether it's day or night. I made a post about it.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54781/free-pk-corruption-night-in-game#latest
I was really hoping it would be much closer to Ashes than what that dev video showed. It might still be an ok game to pass the time with, if NCSOFT doesn't kill it with P2W and P2Convenience (I am pressing X here), but I truly don't see this game being any sort of competition to people who want Ashes, or just crave a fix from a game with similar features. That makes me a little sad.
Things i liked:
*Their already spoken environment adaptability system.
*Few frames Active Defense with different outcomes depending on the weapon, very nice tool with potential for skill expression.
Things i disliked:
*Few skills Weapon-Bound Classes (No True Classes)[New World Flashbacks intensifies]
*Not a true Open World PvP, game, as the most of the places are straight up safe zones. alongside the statement "There is no chance for players to fall into unexpected pvp situations" makes me believe not even clan war situation will overcome the safe zone ruleset other than possession stones.
Thing i felt indifferent about:
*Possession stones, a.k.a Lineage 2 Essense version (NA Aden version) Strongholds, basically another Clan conflict motivator alongside the confront over the mentioned timed region events and bosses, considering the game's majority safe zones, such a thing will prove to be necessary to stir things up.
I truly was expecting some information regarding monetization even if superficial, even tho their "A game for everyone and "PLAY FOR ALL" moto leads me to a firmer believe in the expect F2P P2W model...
Still a game that seems worth checking out in my eyes if they don't mess up the monetization model...
But we talking about NCsoft....
Aren't we all sinners?
Now this one's interesting, since I would have expected you and NiKr to have SOMEWHAT similar perspectives on the OWPvP game aspect.
And I don't think it can be ArcheAge related... so what's the difference here? You're the one who can explain to me the best, probably 'why it is important that there are no safe zones', assuming that's even what you meant.
(If willing, see above for the discussion between NiKr and myself for framing)
Oh you have already understood why i dislike safe zones other than towns:
'constant feeling of danger' or 'the ability to gank others at random' and 'Encountering someone they want to fight/kill and not being able to do it because of a game-mechanic restriction'
Those are things i find important but not complete deal breakers for me as i've experienced Archeage's rulesets where all land in the game (other than Sungold fields, Exeloch, Marcala, Heedmar, Nuimari and Calmlands) would become completely peaceful and chaotic from time to time in cycles.
Aren't we all sinners?
How far the cash shop will be a thing.
We don't have information of monetization yet, and probably because things are not totally set up with western publisher, The rumor of amazon...
This is the problem with NCsoft game : good one, even excellent one, but bad overall management.
For the thing similar to AOC, i think that it was before AOC was an idea the road MMORPG were going to take. Solo game manage to do wonderfull openworld, so mmorpg have to find new ways to have specificity. Even more with a casualised genre where they all know that money = coop more than MMO. So being close to solo RPG. Eve online was already kind of example of those with a fully sandbox system. and just needed time to get it thru change of "grounded" worlds. And think will continue this way.
The "close to AOC" will also vary from one to another base on what feels the most important. Some people claiming "no class so not same" and i would say "who cares?". Because for me it is more about "create the character" than class system i look for. Be it the class system like D&D/pathfinder or a free system as there are lot of other RPG as savage world... i am always fine so don't see it as difference.
It definitely looks like the player wears any gear. Which makes sense for this design type. You won't know if a player who grabs Longsword + Staff is 'trying to be a Priest/Mage', 'trying to be a Fighter', or both, and they would choose their non-weapon gear accordingly. There's no indication so far of 'quickswap' or 'gearset' (I'll hope for none).
If this is true, while I am quite excited for the Ashes 'use any weapon and any gear' option, the result doesn't feel like it will be VERY different if there are no weapon related Active Skills in Ashes. Procs may have some effect, but we don't know yet.
The other aspect of it is the relative quickswap of it.
To me, there's little difference between 'I am a Cleric with Daggers because I like Dagger Procs' and 'I am a Healer that switches to Daggers suddenly because I like Dagger skills too' except that technically there's a higher chance that in the SECOND case I'm having more fun. I still have to make a build/gear loadout that compliments both, I HOPE. And I have to do this in both games.
For those who have expectations of 'Classes' that diverge from 'Weapons', what are those? (I totally get 'wanting more weapon variety' generally, so may not need to address that, TL's glaring lack of Hammer/Mace and Spear is definitely a notable slight on that end).
Basically, if you assume 'Cleric with a Longsword' is going to work in Ashes, any specific reason why you think "Healer Main Longsword User Secondary" won't feel similar in TL?
Now, before you ask, what do you have against Asian MMOs, I don't really have anything against them. I mean, I play BDO, TERA Online, and Lost Ark. I clearly don't hate them. I've dumped plenty of time and money into them.
But, at the same time, I eat pizza and popcorn, but they're not going to compare to lobster thermidor or filet mignon. Asian MMOs without fail lean heavily on tropes that kill any longterm emotional investment in them. A focus on grind, cutesy characters out of Hello Kitty, cosmetics that look like swimsuits or giant popsicle weapons or whatever, and heavy P2W monetization.
They are pretty, they often have cool combat action, and they are fun to play in short doses. But they never, ever suck me in. Never. I've never played one that lasts too long. They're like junk food or a dessert. Nice to have every now and then.
But they might as well be a completely different genre from a western MMO. It's like comparing Ashes of Creation to League of Legends. They are both fun to play individually but they're just not going to scratch the same gaming itch.
I'm not even saying one is superior to the other. They are just too different.
Maybe so, but since the thread was primarily about Systems, and even NiKr's latest revival of the thread was again, about 'the concept of comparing or seeing the similarities of the systems', I was hoping that we might be able to look past that toward the implementation.
(I'm not particularly curious about the 'tropes' or similar, so you need not explain anything of that nature, but if we were to imagine that TL did not contain... whatever it is that you're thinking of, and used Battle Pass instead of general heavy P2W, what then?)
I don't really mind if the general response is 'Asian MMO eww' since that, at least, is a clean 'conversation break', so if that's all you have to say, please ignore me.
System-wise I really dislike the "free gankfest at night" thing. That's a complete deal-breaker for me. As far as I can see it, that means I can only play the game half the time. Gangs of griefers roaming around to ruin other players' fun for their own jollies is not fun for me at all.
But I gotta say, I think they're doing a public service for the gaming industry, because now those jerks have a place to play and will leave AoC alone.
If relevant, a different information source lately has informed us that the 'Night' portion of the game where this is considered to be available might actually be a 4:1 ratio, time wise. So probably only from like 10:30 to 4:00 game time. Source.
I doubt this changes your perspective, but figured I should add to that, and ofc, there's other stuff at that link that might be relevant to thread/discussion.
I believe that Intrepid has a MUCH better chance of doing that successfully than TL does, as their architecture is built directly for it and their combat style/speed doesn't require as much optimization (so far).
But TL has things like 15-frame sword dashes and 'CC that you have to hit confirm', so they're probably going to be a little less ambitious.
That's the general thing I see for them. They're just 'less ambitious'. They're like 'what Ashes would be if Steven didn't believe in making things the maximum possible'. All Ashes has to do to blow this out of the water is actually DO all of the things that they want to do.
But from the other side, we as the community sometimes end up considering things like 'If Ashes had to cut something, what should they cut', or 'We haven't seen new Nodes things in so long'. Whereas TL can afford to 'release now with the barebones enjoyable product' and add more things later.
From my analyst's perspective, they're almost suspiciously efficient with how precisely and carefully they've trimmed everything to minimum viable. The number of things they could 'add later in expansions' while keeping exactly the same gameplay loops is borderline surgical. At least they're not making BDO's mistakes.
But Ashes theoretically has them beat on every front except 'release date' if we trust that we will get everything promised.
tl;dr maybe they'll expand the servers and are being conservative now, but I'd bet they're just playing it safe. Nothing worse than 'releasing a laggy frame dropping game' when you've spent 10 years on trying to get it to work.
And as long as NCsoft doesn't COMPLETELY FUCK IT ALL UP (highly doubtful), they'd have several years of "going up" from their mvp to what Ashes would have on proper release, except in that case it'd have several years of content and reputation built up, at which point it'd be pretty much a direct competitor for AoC. And there's also AA2, though that's probably even more years off than AoC.
In other words, AoC will definitely have issues with holding their target audience if they fail to deliver on their bigger promises. Though both AA2 and TL will most likely fall prey to heavy P2W, so I think in the end Steven's biggest promise of "no p2w" will play the most crucial role in this competition. Especially if we consider that by the time of its release the world of p2w will be even worse than it is rn, so AoC's impact would be that much bigger if they manage to avoid it and deliver at least a decent game.
I don't think it will be true competition at all though.
There's some pretty clear splits in gaming philosophies between the two camps, what I figure we will get is the same sort of schism from the old days where the 'Eastern MMOs' drew one set of players, and WoW/DAoC got the rest.
Different Combat, different world schema, different aesthetics... All Ashes has to do is move a bit more toward WoW and a bit away from L2/AA in terms of those aspects, which it already has. It's pretty ironic in a certain way to me, but I really hope it works out for both sides, and I REALLY hope they keep up this 'mirror image' thing they have going.
Basically what I meant was... by the time TL 'adds everything Ashes promises to have at launch', I bet Ashes would have launched with all that active already. They'd be the ones in trouble then, 'having to find a way to prevent bleeding off players into a new MMO'. Especially if their Console audience wasn't high.
That was my point as well. They might as well be different genres.
I believe I didn't understand your point because of two things.
None of the things you mentioned are things I generally consider 'guaranteed' or even 'likely' for 'Eastern MMOs', so the connection seemed tenuous. All of the things you mentioned were either (I assume) hyperbole, or 'things that apply to Ashes too' which Intrepid might then need to move moreso away from, which leads into...
Secondly, Ashes was based quite a lot on two 'Eastern MMOs'.
By contrast (for example), I would expect that ArcheAge 2 will be MUCH stronger competition for Ashes despite being much 'more Eastern' in specific ways, since they will be MUCH more similar, I think. That's also why I found it ironic.
But this is also probably equally my bias, since the 'things that make Western MMOs' to ME are all things that Ashes is specifically seemingly avoiding, and I'll assume that's because I actually don't understand what makes an MMO 'not Asian' for most people.
We don't know ArcheAge 2 systems yet, but I would bet that any equivalent thread would be almost the exact opposite of this one, we just happen to be discussing TL instead of AA2 right now.
Much more likely I will play TL, rather than Ashes.
A bit more interested in Project E.
They appear more similar than dissimilar.
One strong point in AoC`s favor is maximum population: there is far more capacity for a higher population server to wain in numbers and still maintain a feeling of activity at 2-4x the max possible population than not.
I disagree with this based on the principles that TL seems to be using to achieve their population convergences.
They have a structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content', 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons', and 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'. There is no joke or sarcasm in that last one.
Making an MMO world feel alive is actually only about 50% 'players you actually interact with' in my experience, and it's almost better to use other tricks to cause the effect. TL is full of those tricks, Ashes is by definition not planning to use most of them.
It's also likely that their world size is smaller, but honestly, it's not even required due to their traversal options and their choices in terms of things like 'draw distance' and movement 'styles'.
Many 'open world' MMORPGs spent a bit too MUCH time trying to 'open up their vast world' and ended up making it feel empty. I don't think Ashes will suffer this problem, but I do think that they both have approaches that will likely lead to the same feeling.
TL structure based around 'causing people to come together at certain times for specific content'
AoC structure based around" players actions causing node/region events to bring players together"
TL 'funnelling people through verticality in dungeons'
No idea how AoC will handle circulation in their dungeons.. neither here nor there
TL 'riding around on the back of a giant flying whale'.
TL 'riding around on regular and weird and wonderful mounts.
"Making an MMO world feel alive is actually only about 50% 'players you actually interact with' in my experience, and it's almost better to use other tricks to cause the effect. TL is full of those tricks, Ashes is by definition not planning to use most of them."
> AoC will have to utilize similar tools to make their areas feel active. In early testing and various footage there
looks like there will be spatial disparity perhaps derived from insufficient / inaccurate data estimation of densities.
Not seeing the disparity you see.
Sure, I'll clarify, let me know if you still disagree. For now, only addressing the one thing since I won't be around as much today.
Let's ignore Metropolis nodes and maybe even Cities for a moment because if Ashes 'intends' for outer nodes to be 'boring' and 'peaceful' that's fine, still different, but I'd definitely be wrong then.
In TL, the idea is that at 8:00 PM every day or every other day, there's a contest in Region A, so everyone who wants to compete knows when to log on, knows where to go, knows what the stakes are, can coordinate, and it's probably unrelated to their 'home area'.
In Ashes, at 'some time', an event MIGHT spawn, in a Node that could be quite far from you but also have other 'native people' there, in a region you might not care about, with the 'act of moving to this contest' being unsafe due to lack of ability to travel safely through field zones'.
My understanding is that for Ashes, this SPECIFIC type of dynamism is intentional, whereas for TL it is explicitly not.
So for Ashes, especially if you don't get a lot of 'worldwide announcements of content' to tell you 'report to X node in the Jundark for a cool event that will start in 20m', you're not going to get the same results. People will 'stay around their nodes' or wander semirandomly. Statistically this would result in non-convergence. This will be compounded by the general feeling in Ashes that anyone you encounter on the road that you don't know WELL might just try to kill you, hoping that you have stuff.
This doubles up when those people have to be thinking 'are you running to the other side of the map right now because you are bored but also want to make a profit? Can I kill you, get the items you were hoping to sell at a profit and then profit with MUCH less work?'
Making the act if 'moving to a new event' a matter of gathering your group for travel sometimes.
This is the basis of my perception, please let me know which points you disagree with (as well as if you still disagree in general with the conclusion, but not the basis).