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Open world Raid/Boss Possible problems
Kardin
Member
Hi everyone, I state that I am new to the game and I have recently been interested in it so I do not know if this has been discussed previously or if information has already been provided to circumvent any problems that could arise in the scenarios I am imagining , in case if someone could provide me the link of the post I would be grateful.
But no more chatter and let's get into the heart of my question!
As the title suggests, everything specifically concerns the bosses and dungeons Open World, being that those instantiated I do not think they can be influenced by the PVP.
Exactly, my concern is PVP during these events, or rather the griefing and monopolization that larger guilds can have on this content. (And don't tell me this won't happen, because it can and surely will)
Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.
Obviously the game was thought of as the old Linege and the like, and being that it seems interesting to me I am also willing to accept the mixing of these features.
However being that the PVE endgame content should be the one that drops the best gear (from what I have understood at least) I see countless possibilities for griefing and trolling, I think that creating a type of activity that is blocked by other players, and therefore automatically excludes part of the server population, not because that population does not have the requirements, but only because there are stronger or more numerous players to block them out seems to me a fallacious system towards the community and the gameplay in general.
So my question is the following, how do the developers think to prevent the bad behaviors that will surely be created?
(We don't even have to wonder, 100% people will do this).
I wanted to thank those who decided to take the time to read the whole post and I hope to receive some interesting answers, perhaps even from a developer or CM himself who can clarify or give ideas to avoid problems.
But no more chatter and let's get into the heart of my question!
As the title suggests, everything specifically concerns the bosses and dungeons Open World, being that those instantiated I do not think they can be influenced by the PVP.
Exactly, my concern is PVP during these events, or rather the griefing and monopolization that larger guilds can have on this content. (And don't tell me this won't happen, because it can and surely will)
Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.
Obviously the game was thought of as the old Linege and the like, and being that it seems interesting to me I am also willing to accept the mixing of these features.
However being that the PVE endgame content should be the one that drops the best gear (from what I have understood at least) I see countless possibilities for griefing and trolling, I think that creating a type of activity that is blocked by other players, and therefore automatically excludes part of the server population, not because that population does not have the requirements, but only because there are stronger or more numerous players to block them out seems to me a fallacious system towards the community and the gameplay in general.
So my question is the following, how do the developers think to prevent the bad behaviors that will surely be created?
(We don't even have to wonder, 100% people will do this).
I wanted to thank those who decided to take the time to read the whole post and I hope to receive some interesting answers, perhaps even from a developer or CM himself who can clarify or give ideas to avoid problems.
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The most recent discussion was in this topic.
It is recent, so it is probably okay to add your discussion points to that topic to continue it.
Otherwise griefing other raid groups is expected and accepted. Of course not all raids and dungeons will be open world, some 20% of them will be instanced.
Alternatively some groups can hire other players to run interference against griefers, whilst they focus on the raid.
If another group comes in to attack the same boss, the loot will be granted to the those who tagged it and/or dealt over X% of damage. After that, it's a free for all PvP scenario either way.
This sort of player conflict is at the core of the game and the devs don't seem intent on preventing it, save for the odd high level player deciding to kill low level players for shits and giggles.
And I personally completely disagree with you on that. I hate how modern MMOs separate PvE and PvP into two separate areas instead of intertwining the systems as they should be.
Intrepid don't plan to stop people from monopolising bosses. They've answered it before that if a guild does monopolise bosses, then other guilds should band together to stop them. It's a player run world after all.
I think it more of a: what if someone comes in and kills you, to prevent you from killing the boss. Not so much a case of: I'm coming in and trying to steal the kill.
All in all, I still wouldn't count it as griefing. The very words used in the OP shows that the OP just isn't suited to PvX.
I'm hoping smaller more casual guilds can hang out in a quiet corner of the map and summon a boss to play with.
It seems i did not explain myself well, if a open world boss need, for example, 40 ppl do to it, and another 80 ppl (all from another guild) come to fight for it, i think is ok, BUT if 700 ppl camp the boss on respawn just to not let other do it (with "other" i dont mean the enemy of their guild, i mean literally every other ppl on the server) that is a bad choise of design, we are not kid anymore and we are not in L2, i personally work 8h a day (normal timework i think), sleep 8h (otherwise i will not perform at work) and in general i can play maybe 1h to 3h a day, and like me probably 70% of the world, if I (like any other person) need to rally 700 ppl from all across the server all from different guilds and probably from different timezone just to fight for something that at least a try on it should be guaranteed, that will be super difficoult to pull off and even if you manage to do it, only a certain amount of ppl can loot the boss (I think I have read 8/16/40 based on the content).
Personally I think that a good solution could be for example to make the loot collectible 1 time a week per character and maybe the boss have it spawn 3 to 6 times a day, so that there are no incentives to camp the boss if not to prevent your own enemies to do it. This will reduce the ppl that will stay there since they can gain nothing to do so and will help ppl with less time to play, like me.
There is nothing to stop people from camping a world boss site though. If they want to waste time you can just enter the local dungeons or even the local raid if you know the toughest guild in the region is sat spawn camping the world boss.
You can also mobilise a whole alliance to take on a world boss - maximum 900 players. It will almost be impossible for 900 players to camp a world boss 24/7. It would be far easier for 900 players to turn up and wipe the spawn campers aside.
Your concern sounds like a community concern not an intrepid concern. If someone is capable of holding a mob of 900 people together to guard a world boss 24/7 then more power to them and more world and world bosses for the rest of us.
Verra should feel big and take time to get where your going if 900 people are all standing around in one place waiting for something to spawn let them. That just means there is so many others things they are not competing for as they stand around doing a dance party.
Kidding aside,
Perfect answer Talents.
I don't think i have much to add to this, I'd merely want to point out once more, that what OP proclaims as a problem is indeed an intended possibility by the developers.
If there is a guild locking you out from the boss, then band together and murder that guild. Its that simple. If you can't do that, then you probably don't deserve the boss kill in the first place.
@Kardin also, maybe another thing that might be interesting to you.
Steven mentioned in the Live AMA back in 2020, that there are 12-15 relevant raid bosses planned to be in the world. Regional and Dungeon spawned bosses not included. If some of them are monopolized by a guild, then either contest them or go for another, there is plenty of choice planned. If you can't contest a single one of those bosses, then you might want to surround yourself with better teammates.
doesn't even have to be many just a few people going around killing the healers and the raid will wipe.
- this happened in AA and other pve world bosses where players could pvp.
- if you separate pvp and pve then it kills the need for one of them in the long run.
then bring a second and third raid to protect your healers @Hatham
At what point does it stop being a 'raid' and become a 'zerg' at that point?
This is a genuine question, because I count '3 raids' as between 100 and 120 people.
But I don't know what people consider 'zerg tactics' levels of people, in modern MMOs, I guess.
Obviously you don't want to bring 120 people. Why would you want to preoccupy 120 people, if really only takes 40 people to clear the content. Those 80 won't see much benefit, but it still tops not getting the boss kill at all. That's pretty much the price of a PvX encounter.
The only thing I'd like Intrepid to make sure is, that only 40 people are engaged with the raid boss, while the others have guard duty or even better (from my point of view) -> first do the PvP, and the raid that is left standing may challenge the boss for an attempt. That would be my optimal scenario, which unfortunately Intrepid doesn't seem to consider.
Yes big guilds would camp some times. Then enemy big guilds would attack them and the area would clear for some time. That's life.
You havent addressed anything that hasn't been done many times alrdy. Go to another raid boss if that one is guarded. The map is big. And no, raids wont drop the best gear EXCLUSIVELY. The best gear is crafted.
That's the thing your gonna get people that become aware your raid group -> and attack the group or even randoms that wander into the fight.
Last thing you want is the entire server hearing about the raid and crashing it to steal the kill.
Yes, you've become old, but instead of being selfish and thinking about only your own benefits, try to think about the current younger people who might want to experience the same thing you did back then. If you have 1h to play the game - do so and enjoy that 1h. If you can't enjoy the game w/o getting everything presented to you on a silver platter - mmos are no longer for you.
I can understand why some people want instanced bosses as it is the easier way if you cant find a solution. Though i don't think that should be the norm.
Open world pvp is so different from all the games where you could only interact with other players in raids and BGs.
Irregular respawn timers are needed on top of reduced fast travel capabilities.
If people know the exact time of a respawn, then zergs will indeed form beforehand.
If the boss has a long window of possibly respawns, then forming raids for it will be reactionary and zergs will naturally be less pronounced.
I still worry about the Family Summon System, as i feel like its predicated to form Zergs. The Ability to summon 7 other players in a short amount of time will help zergs more than everybody else and feels generally out of place.
The guild that manages to get enough members to be able to wait for a boss for 10+h, w/o losing the guild's effectiveness for both pve and pvp, will be the one who controls said boss. And imo they'd deserve it.
So, it'll be hard to camp or "grief". But, for sure, you'll have to dedicate 5-8 players in your raid/group only to scout and PvP defense while doing a world boss.
What's the issue ? It's more like an additional mechanic during a boss encounter.
That sounds exactly as ff11 had with its Notorious monsters and hyper notorious monsters where people would wait days at a time for the kill.
That is true, you would want to kill it asap. Unless you have a super guild you won't be able to zerg it or worry about other guilds to Zerg and ruin it for you.
I think family summon is fine as long as it is balanced, If the cooldown is shared between all family members. else you just show up and teleport 40 people instant from a few families.