We were all set to have no fast travel, then we got the node diaries and news that Scientific Node will have a fast travel. Then out of the blue the Family Summons system was announced. All you need is 8 people in a group who are all part of a different family. Even if there was a long cooldown shared between all family members, a group of 8 could rapidly deploy 16 vs 8 when required.
@Neurath that's not correct.
The family summon, by the last information we received, would allow you to summon your entire family within the spawn of a 60 second cast.
Yeah, I was going by the previous posters calculations, not the official calculations. I'm against family summons in any form. If summoning was linked to the Mage or Warlock I would have less of an issue, but, its not linked to class or the game at all, its just tacked on for anyone to utilise. If it was a utility skill I would probably allow the feature because one could group up with the class in question when needed. Yet, the vast majority of players will not have access to full family summons - only those in guilds most likely.
I believe that the worry regarding Family Summon is justified, albeit too early. I absolutely agree that this system shouldn't exist, but I also understand why Steven wants to cater to a certain player type and add this feature. Steven is aware of the "abusability" of this feature, so I really hope he won't be bamboozled.
Steven and all of us know for a fact that especially tryhard groups, but anyone really, will abuse this system to gain advantages in a variety of ways if they can. The easiest way to visualize the abuse is this: imagine a guild has 96 members. This guild will have 12 different families with 8 guild members in each. What they will do is travel in a group of 12 people, each of them from a different family, and when they reach their destination they'll summon the remaining 84 players in a matter of minutes. And this number can go as high as you want. If a guild has 400 players, all they need is 50 "efficient families". Go somewhere in a group of 50, summon the other 350 people and proceed to do whatever you wanted to do.
If Steven does not want to give up the Family Summon, then they absolutely must nerf it and make it as useless as possible for any goal other than what was intended: "My concern is that the divide that's present in having a largely non-fast travel based traversal for the world might be a very significant encumbrance for more casual oriented players".
Simple ideas to nerf the Family Summon so that it's not so easily abusable by people with "tryhard" intentions but still useful for people who just want to meet up and play the game:
Both players being summoned must be in the capital/dominant Node of a ZoI. If that ZoI doesn't have a dominant Node yet, then any Node is fine.
The summon cast time is 5 minutes: you can move around, trade, craft, etc. but you cannot leave the city.
The account wide cooldown for summoning someone using the Family Summon is 30+ minutes.
The account wide cooldown for being summoned by the Family Summon is 48+ hours.
After successfully summoning or being summoned, you get a "pacifist" buff: unable to attack mobs or creatures for 10 minutes, but still able to get killed.
Will zergs still able to teleport any number of players they want to a city on the other side of the world? Yep, but at least now it's harder to be sneaky about it. And they'll be stuck there for 48 hours unless they run back to wherever they came from.
The system is intended for casual players to rejoin your friends easily instead of travelling for 60% of their daily online time.
I'm fine with that and i understand where he is coming from. As you said, it will mostly be used by the most active/dedicated guilds with optimized families...
I think there is one restriction that would shut this down completely and ensure that its only used for the intended design:
players can only be summoned if they, have played less than (TBD) 10 hours during the previous week.
Everybody can summon
Easy way to ensure those that want to abuse it won't be able to
You may even scale that so players who just exceeded it have a feelbad experience:
Another possible tweak to weaken family summons could be to make it that you cannot leave your family, ever. Just like irl, your family is your family for life. Once guilds form, disband, reform and so forth, the family summon ability will become less and less useful for zerging.
However, if someone joins a family through marriage, then that individual can divorce and leave the family. Some reasonable cool down for remarriage ought to apply.
After thinking about it in this thread I know what I'd want instead of Family Summon.
"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.
If the main 'problem' the Family summon is meant to solve (people not being able to catch up with their friends when they don't have as much time to play and wanting to form up in group quickly), but this 'solution' also creates a bunch of problems, I'd settle for this.
1) I can still be killed but if rep is good in the area or the area is safe/secure for my Family in the first place, there's much less risk
2) The time to travel is not negated, only the player's need to pay close attention at all times to make sure they are going the right way
3) The summoning player would, if sensible, find a safe place to summon family to instead of 'wandering into some dungeon and then pulling everyone else past all the mobs magically'.
I can't speak for all players obviously but I personally don't usually have an issue 'finding the time to turn on the game and autorun somewhere', I just may not have the time to get there manually.
This would also allow for different escort services to work, or for 'having your best PvP player in the family join up with the one that will have to take the most dangerous path' and protect them, or stuff like that. Just make people's lives a LITTLE bit easier on gathering together without as much hassle, but they can keep all the risks.
If your family can manage to Autopath to a Boss location safely in potentially hostile territory, more power to them. Similarly if the whole Node wants to work together to bring down whatever threat, and people start 'summoning' their family, and no one attacks them on the way... great.
"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.
How would you feel if this worked offline as well? As in, you don't need to log into the game, but your character would still run towards the family summoner. This would put even more responsibility on the summoner, because now the summoned char can't fight back (though most likely they wouldn't be able to do that either way, cause the summoned player would most likely be afk), but this would serve a very similar service as the TP summon.
As I see it, the family TP is meant to completely cut out the time required to move from one place to the other. So if just one family member gets to login before the others, they can just summon everyone and they'll all play together once the others get online.
I'd assume guilds wouldn't use this system at all, cause they'd just get murdered by any gw player on their way to the summoner. And this wouldn't be usable to them when they're online, cause at that point they'd be better off running themselves.
"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.
How would you feel if this worked offline as well? As in, you don't need to log into the game, but your character would still run towards the family summoner. This would put even more responsibility on the summoner, because now the summoned char can't fight back (though most likely they wouldn't be able to do that either way, cause the summoned player would most likely be afk), but this would serve a very similar service as the TP summon.
As I see it, the family TP is meant to completely cut out the time required to move from one place to the other. So if just one family member gets to login before the others, they can just summon everyone and they'll all play together once the others get online.
I'd assume guilds wouldn't use this system at all, cause they'd just get murdered by any gw player on their way to the summoner. And this wouldn't be usable to them when they're online, cause at that point they'd be better off running themselves.
I wouldn't hate it, assuming all the same restrictions, but I feel it might get a little weird to have characters 'moving in game without actually being online'.
If that's what it takes, though, then I'm all for it. Heck if you REALLY want to make it helpful to the players I feel this is targeted at, make it so that if they die while autopathing during the call they respawn at the spawnpoint nearest to their own forward path, or if within a certain range, at the one nearest to their Calling family member.
Will some people use that to bloodport to family? Sure. But assuming that you don't WANT to take the exp loss from dying when you don't have to, still works. No worse than 'vanishing from the safety of my Freehold to appear wherever my Rogue is'.
From what you have said about family summon, I can say 100% that if they don't put limitations or controls on it, something like that will destroy the game, even the fact that fast travel is something almost impossible to achieve (only the the top-tier science city can have it) it won't make any sense. At this point, just put in fast travel so that the solo player can do what guilds do too.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
Looking around the previous information, I can already see how we, even as a solo player, can exploit/troll/grief almost everything and I don't think it's a good way to start the game with this mindset especially because, in the end they will have to fix and create systems to prevent these things from their side, we cannot expect the players themselves to solve these things, we are not in 2000 where technology does not allow many things to be done, and the fact that no one is talking of this it really worry me.
OLD = \ = GOOD
Now a lot can be done, and you can innovate in aspects that in the days of L2, Metin and the others of the time could not.
I personally have many good memories of those games and also of Wow, but looking at the past NOW with a CRITICAL EYE towards the gameplay and the contents I can say that they were all shitty games, maybe innovative and beautiful for their period but now not anymore.
Just take for example what happened with New World, to date it is 13k players, the peak at the release of the game was over 1 Million, in less than 6 months it has reduced for two simple reasons:
1. No endgame content
2. Wrong and poorly implemented systems and functions.
Some of you might say "Eh all the bugs in pvp, pve; The 7 or 8 bugs of duplicating items via auction, etc. etc." let me tell you if the game was nice and above all fun even with these bugs it would still have been played.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is what they are supposed to do.
It's their right to take it, that's the game. Only one group will be able to claim the resources from a world boss and everyone has the right to contest. This scenario isn't a bad thing, it's different from the experience some games provide but is intended.
I think it's important to point out that this wont be the only content in the game and if you can't compete, there will be other activities for you to focus on to progress your character.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is always the problem for MMOs and the one that I feel devs need to tackle first.
You have to throw out any concept of 'consequences' that mimic RL ones. Everything in an MMO can be solved with 'persistence that a living human could not have'.
Your character never gets so hungry that they can't function. They can stand in the middle of a swamp, fight monsters for 40 hours straight (their time) and not get sick. Even if they did get sick, they could theoretically go jump off a cliff take some exp debt and respawn healthy. They practically can't be punished for being bad other than effectively griefing the player out of the account.
You can't put 'good rewards' at the end of paths that people would take irl if they were all Wolverine. You can't even put 'deterrent punishments' on the bad paths they'd take and expect them to work as much anymore now that 'killing people on streams and laughing about it' can get fame.
Would any of us even accept it if the droprates for World Bosses were also influenced by: Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
From the wiki? I mean, we might have no choice, but if someone can stop you from getting the loot from the Boss just by killing you enough times during your attempt, and we assume that either 'side' starts off this way, now they've 'both lost' already. If the fight was even, now both sides have 'droprate reduction' and for many, their biggest interest would be 'prevent anyone else from killing it either, or if they can't prevent it, at least mess with their drop rate'.
You wouldn't even have much incentive to come to an alliance, you've already poisoned the well. The only thing the alliance would form to do probably is kill anyone ELSE who showed up.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is what they are supposed to do.
It's their right to take it, that's the game. Only one group will be able to claim the resources from a world boss and everyone has the right to contest. This scenario isn't a bad thing, it's different from the experience some games provide but is intended.
I think it's important to point out that this wont be the only content in the game and if you can't compete, there will be other activities for you to focus on to progress your character.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is always the problem for MMOs and the one that I feel devs need to tackle first.
You have to throw out any concept of 'consequences' that mimic RL ones. Everything in an MMO can be solved with 'persistence that a living human could not have'.
Your character never gets so hungry that they can't function. They can stand in the middle of a swamp, fight monsters for 40 hours straight (their time) and not get sick. Even if they did get sick, they could theoretically go jump off a cliff take some exp debt and respawn healthy. They practically can't be punished for being bad other than effectively griefing the player out of the account.
You can't put 'good rewards' at the end of paths that people would take irl if they were all Wolverine. You can't even put 'deterrent punishments' on the bad paths they'd take and expect them to work as much anymore now that 'killing people on streams and laughing about it' can get fame.
Would any of us even accept it if the droprates for World Bosses were also influenced by: Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
From the wiki? I mean, we might have no choice, but if someone can stop you from getting the loot from the Boss just by killing you enough times during your attempt, and we assume that either 'side' starts off this way, now they've 'both lost' already. If the fight was even, now both sides have 'droprate reduction' and for many, their biggest interest would be 'prevent anyone else from killing it either, or if they can't prevent it, at least mess with their drop rate'.
You wouldn't even have much incentive to come to an alliance, you've already poisoned the well. The only thing the alliance would form to do probably is kill anyone ELSE who showed up.
IF they want to mimic IRL letting the game be driven by the player they NEED TO BECOME THE STATE and put in some rules otherwise WE will kill the game ourself, it already happened and will happen again, is easy to do it, and a that point only a miracle can bring a dead back to life. Humans without rules are nothing more than beast
And in any case what i fear is not a pvp 40vs40 for a boss, that i fear is the possibility of 1kvs40 for all bosses, with the addition of the summon and possibly many others way is plausible to say that the big gaming community (the biggest that i know are from russia and china) will dominate over everthing and NO, even if they are 10k, have 24h a day for 7 days a week, they dont deserve to own every single spot on the map, If the devs want a healty game they NEED TO PUT RULES.
Another example i can give you is Atlas, maybe you know it, maybe dont, doesnt matter, the game had 225 server on EU and one of the biggest community that i remember owend more that 1/3 of the map, around 85 server, every server had multiple island, they were everywere with a total of more than 20k player, with the other 2 big guild they played for around 3 to 6 month and then the game died. The devs are doing their best to update and bring the game back, and in some cases they are doing a good work but still is many years before can become a "good game"
Mega Guilds have been discussed before. We can't do anything about Mega Guilds. The saving grace will be the server will just grow and never be disrupted except by the Mega Guilds. Some of us would fight these Mega Guilds but we are a niche. Most people will swap server instead.
With all that said, some of the best PvP fights can be had around Bosses and top PvE areas. We are already limited by Corruption and we do not also want to be limited by instanced world bosses. A world boss should cater to the world and pvp players are part of the world too.
We were all set to have no fast travel, then we got the node diaries and news that Scientific Node will have a fast travel. Then out of the blue the Family Summons system was announced. All you need is 8 people in a group who are all part of a different family. Even if there was a long cooldown shared between all family members, a group of 8 could rapidly deploy 16 vs 8 when required.
@Neurath that's not correct.
The family summon, by the last information we received, would allow you to summon your entire family within the spawn of a 60 second cast.
So itcwouldn't be a 16 v. 8, but a 64 v. 8
I did not know that but im sure thing are open to change to balance it out lmao. That is a instant zerg.
Mega Guilds have been discussed before. We can't do anything about Mega Guilds. The saving grace will be the server will just grow and never be disrupted except by the Mega Guilds. Some of us would fight these Mega Guilds but we are a niche. Most people will swap server instead.
With all that said, some of the best PvP fights can be had around Bosses and top PvE areas. We are already limited by Corruption and we do not also want to be limited by instanced world bosses. A world boss should cater to the world and pvp players are part of the world too.
I'll repeat it another time, I AM NOT AGAINST THE CONTESTED WORLD BOSS PVP, but it needs to be balanced so that it is not a guaranteed win for whoever has more free people to bring.
A good example would be that only X number of people can enter the area limited to X number of different guilds. If for example a boss requires 40 people, the first 40 enter and start the boss, that guild cannot let anyone else in and not even members of an alliance can enter, let's say then guild 2 arrives at that point the members of guild 2 they can enter, always 40 maximum, with the same rules applied above, they can enter up to X guilds/alliances, at which point it would be balanced and the mega guilds would have no way to win with numbers. I don't think it's technically difficult to perform considering all the other systems in the game. Obviously it took me two minutes to think of such a thing, so it is neither accurate nor exploit proof but it certainly can be refined and probably made quite safe and efficient leaving the space and feeling of the world boss as it is now.
Another rule could be that if you dont fight the one that started the boss you are locked out from that boss for the rest of the week, so if you go in and lock all the spot to let another guild do the boss for free you lose more that what you will gain if you play properly
There is no way you can stop someone bringing more people unless you have an instance. As the world bosses aren't instanced it won't be possible. Less than 20% of the bosses will be instanced. The only saving you have is a timed attack. Locked outs, guild limitations, and personnel limitations are all against the very nature of the PvX game. Its not like the world bosses will even be the epitome of loot - they will just give comparative loot. If we yield to these demands on World Bosses we'll soon have no leg to stand on for the 80+% of the other bosses that will all see the same possibilities occur.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is what they are supposed to do.
It's their right to take it, that's the game. Only one group will be able to claim the resources from a world boss and everyone has the right to contest. This scenario isn't a bad thing, it's different from the experience some games provide but is intended.
I think it's important to point out that this wont be the only content in the game and if you can't compete, there will be other activities for you to focus on to progress your character.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
This is always the problem for MMOs and the one that I feel devs need to tackle first.
You have to throw out any concept of 'consequences' that mimic RL ones. Everything in an MMO can be solved with 'persistence that a living human could not have'.
Your character never gets so hungry that they can't function. They can stand in the middle of a swamp, fight monsters for 40 hours straight (their time) and not get sick. Even if they did get sick, they could theoretically go jump off a cliff take some exp debt and respawn healthy. They practically can't be punished for being bad other than effectively griefing the player out of the account.
You can't put 'good rewards' at the end of paths that people would take irl if they were all Wolverine. You can't even put 'deterrent punishments' on the bad paths they'd take and expect them to work as much anymore now that 'killing people on streams and laughing about it' can get fame.
Would any of us even accept it if the droprates for World Bosses were also influenced by: Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
From the wiki? I mean, we might have no choice, but if someone can stop you from getting the loot from the Boss just by killing you enough times during your attempt, and we assume that either 'side' starts off this way, now they've 'both lost' already. If the fight was even, now both sides have 'droprate reduction' and for many, their biggest interest would be 'prevent anyone else from killing it either, or if they can't prevent it, at least mess with their drop rate'.
You wouldn't even have much incentive to come to an alliance, you've already poisoned the well. The only thing the alliance would form to do probably is kill anyone ELSE who showed up.
IF they want to mimic IRL letting the game be driven by the player they NEED TO BECOME THE STATE and put in some rules otherwise WE will kill the game ourself, it already happened and will happen again, is easy to do it, and a that point only a miracle can bring a dead back to life. Humans without rules are nothing more than beast
And in any case what i fear is not a pvp 40vs40 for a boss, that i fear is the possibility of 1kvs40 for all bosses, with the addition of the summon and possibly many others way is plausible to say that the big gaming community (the biggest that i know are from russia and china) will dominate over everthing and NO, even if they are 10k, have 24h a day for 7 days a week, they dont deserve to own every single spot on the map, If the devs want a healty game they NEED TO PUT RULES.
Another example i can give you is Atlas, maybe you know it, maybe dont, doesnt matter, the game had 225 server on EU and one of the biggest community that i remember owend more that 1/3 of the map, around 85 server, every server had multiple island, they were everywere with a total of more than 20k player, with the other 2 big guild they played for around 3 to 6 month and then the game died. The devs are doing their best to update and bring the game back, and in some cases they are doing a good work but still is many years before can become a "good game"
If they are 10k then they are basically the whole server at that point and pretty much own the whole map wither they like it or not.
I also disagree to some extent. If a group of people own something, then they deserve to own it. Doesn't matter if they are part of a bigger group or not.
To me, this is one of those things you need to see how it happens first, the advantages being gained, and the options the others on the server. Yes, this has happened in games but it also hasn't happened in others, so understanding the differences is key to countering it.
Some things to note is in ashes, the are guild member limits which will force them to separate. Even if they can still coordinate, it can have tribal effects on people.
There is also limited resources in ashes so the bigger the zerg, the more people who will be giving up resources. Since progression is a part of the game, these people will be giving up an aspect of the game for the group. This will increase the chance that they might want to separate since as a part of the group, they have no chance but apart, they can at least fight.
Lastly, something i have noticed is in games with a high amount of skill expression, skilled players will want to test their skill, which they cant in a zerg. These players will leave for more competitive fights.
Not saying what you described won't happen but it hasn't yet and in every game it could happen, it doesn't. As i said, i think the best way to deal with it is to see how it happens to understand it first.
There is no way you can stop someone bringing more people unless you have an instance. As the world bosses aren't instanced it won't be possible. Less than 20% of the bosses will be instanced. The only saving you have is a timed attack. Locked outs, guild limitations, and personnel limitations are all against the very nature of the PvX game. Its not like the world bosses will even be the epitome of loot - they will just give comparative loot. If we yield to these demands on World Bosses we'll soon have no leg to stand on for the 80+% of the other bosses that will all see the same possibilities occur.
Another solution i talked about at the start of the post is to simply make the boss spawn multiple times a day and make it so that everybody know in advance, and make it in a way that you can loot it only one per week, at that point all the player can have the chance to engage in the pvp open world to contest that and the stronger will do it only once since there are no reward for doing it multiple times.
You say that the boss will give comparative loot, and the best gear is crafted, im ok with that, but how will i craft that gear? I will need rare material i suppose, so where do i get that material? Maybe world boss, maybe will drop from special or unique mob/resource, and if there are only a few place where i can farm that resource/mob we will be at the same situation, mega guild will camp that spot and the other player will not have even the chance to do something like that, at that point mega guild will stop the progression of the entire sever, the player from the server will move to another server, at some point the mega guild will move to because there are no one except them in said server and here we have a dead server and the cycle continue in another untill the game itself dies.
All i wish is and answer from the devs where they say that understand this concern and:
1. "we dont care, you deal with it, is part of how we want the game to be"
2. "we are still looking in ways to address this kind of things"
3. "we have system that can prevent this and they are:......"
An answer is all i want, doent matter what the anwer are.
I don't think you grasp the competitive nature of the beast. Even if you could only loot the world boss once a week people won't stand and wave you on as you prepare to get loot with which to battle these people at a later point. The point i keep trying to make is, these things you are trying to address are not griefing, they are valid PvP tactics. Don't get confused by the PvX tag, the main facet here is the PvP. Not just PvP, but, competitive PvP.
I don't think you grasp the competitive nature of the beast. Even if you could only loot the world boss once a week people won't stand and wave you on as you prepare to get loot with which to battle these people at a later point. The point i keep trying to make is, these things you are trying to address are not griefing, they are valid PvP tactics. Don't get confused by the PvX tag, the main facet here is the PvP. Not just PvP, but, competitive PvP.
then let me ask you this, are you willing to stay 24/7 in front of the boss just to fight again all the server? I dont mean your archnemesis, i get that, i mean vs all the server. If so ok good, but you have to be penalized in other areas and you must not be allowed to do so just because you are in a mega guild and there are others who do the same and others who farm for you.
A good game have to be good for every one, both small guilds and big guilds, you cant let the zerg win otherwise the game will die.
And dont forget, the launch window of AoC should be the same of League's MMO so if AoC want to have a slice of the pie need to be better then the others.
And onestly the point that ppl even think to do "competitive pvp" in a mmo is something that it dont understand, competitive pvp is based on skills, not gear/farm, the worst place where you can show how good you are and how you can dominate everybody because you are so good is an mmo. I respect their opinion when they say "copetitive pvp mmo" dont get me wrong, but i cant share the same way of thinking.
There is a 60% 40% split whereby people don't even have to pvp they could just nuke the boss harder than the first people to attend. If they do 60% of the damage they will get the loot. There will be times when there will be pvp during, times when there will be pvp before and times when there will be pvp afterwards. There will also be times when there is no pvp.
I can't possibly state what I will and won't do in each eventuality because it purely depends on the circumstances in question. PvP players are generally masochists who are willing to fight for whatever they want. The amount of time it will take to reach the World Boss means few people are going to simply walk off and leave the world boss to someone else.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't think you grasp the competitive nature of the beast. Even if you could only loot the world boss once a week people won't stand and wave you on as you prepare to get loot with which to battle these people at a later point. The point i keep trying to make is, these things you are trying to address are not griefing, they are valid PvP tactics. Don't get confused by the PvX tag, the main facet here is the PvP. Not just PvP, but, competitive PvP.
then let me ask you this, are you willing to stay 24/7 in front of the boss just to fight again all the server? I dont mean your archnemesis, i get that, i mean vs all the server. If so ok good, but you have to be penalized in other areas and you must not be allowed to do so just because you are in a mega guild and there are others who do the same and others who farm for you.
A good game have to be good for every one, both small guilds and big guilds, you cant let the zerg win otherwise the game will die.
And dont forget, the launch window of AoC should be the same of League's MMO so if AoC want to have a slice of the pie need to be better then the others.
And onestly the point that ppl even think to do "competitive pvp" in a mmo is something that it dont understand, competitive pvp is based on skills, not gear/farm, the worst place where you can show how good you are and how you can dominate everybody because you are so good is an mmo. I respect their opinion when they say "copetitive pvp mmo" dont get me wrong, but i cant share the same way of thinking.
I think you are too focused on the world boss which aren't only content. If a group has it locked down, go do something else.
It's funny you bring up the League MMO since in League, farming and gear play a large roll in the game's outcome and you secure pve objectives with tactics other than player skill.
Just because a game has pvp, doesn't mean it needs to be considered competitive to be fun.
I don't think you grasp the competitive nature of the beast. Even if you could only loot the world boss once a week people won't stand and wave you on as you prepare to get loot with which to battle these people at a later point. The point i keep trying to make is, these things you are trying to address are not griefing, they are valid PvP tactics. Don't get confused by the PvX tag, the main facet here is the PvP. Not just PvP, but, competitive PvP.
then let me ask you this, are you willing to stay 24/7 in front of the boss just to fight again all the server? I dont mean your archnemesis, i get that, i mean vs all the server. If so ok good, but you have to be penalized in other areas and you must not be allowed to do so just because you are in a mega guild and there are others who do the same and others who farm for you.
A good game have to be good for every one, both small guilds and big guilds, you cant let the zerg win otherwise the game will die.
And dont forget, the launch window of AoC should be the same of League's MMO so if AoC want to have a slice of the pie need to be better then the others.
And onestly the point that ppl even think to do "competitive pvp" in a mmo is something that it dont understand, competitive pvp is based on skills, not gear/farm, the worst place where you can show how good you are and how you can dominate everybody because you are so good is an mmo. I respect their opinion when they say "copetitive pvp mmo" dont get me wrong, but i cant share the same way of thinking.
You should probably expect Ashes to be more competitive in terms of crafting and economy than PvP or boss kills. Lots of players who play similar games have basically assured me that the PvP itself and contested bosses situation doesn't exist in the same way as in those games.
PvP is probably going to end up being more of a side-thing, particularly if corruption penalties are harsh.
Sometimes I wonder whether people yank too many cranks. How can pvp be a side show when we can literally delevel nodes and the ability to craft high grade gear through pvp?
Sometimes I wonder whether people yank too many cranks. How can pvp be a side show when we can literally delevel nodes and the ability to craft high grade gear through pvp?
You're right, my bad.
I specifically meant, and should have said, Open World PvP.
Objective Based PvP will be one of the biggest catalysts of change in Ashes.
Open World PvP will probably mostly be a distraction from influential content such as what you mentioned, and at 'worst' OwPvP encounters will be an obstacle you could just disengage from if you needed to, or jump in on for fun and to create chaos (which appears to be the OP's perception of a problem).
If no one can kill the boss because it's completely a chaotic deathzone, the people moving their caravans while others are clustered around the boss will be the ones that determine things.
Thank you for reaffirming my beliefs. Even so, I'm not sure how effective it will all be. If you can't fast travel with resources, and, at worst can lose 25% of resources if you don't go combatant, it's still not clear who will be sending the caravans for those people on the highway to waylay.
I mean we are very focused on the world boss in this thread but we must not lose sight of all the other pvp opportunities which don't run the risk of corruption.
Seeing as we can also clear corruption from any PvE entity these days, the best start would be the world boss after a lovely little scrap.
I don't think you grasp the competitive nature of the beast. Even if you could only loot the world boss once a week people won't stand and wave you on as you prepare to get loot with which to battle these people at a later point. The point i keep trying to make is, these things you are trying to address are not griefing, they are valid PvP tactics. Don't get confused by the PvX tag, the main facet here is the PvP. Not just PvP, but, competitive PvP.
then let me ask you this, are you willing to stay 24/7 in front of the boss just to fight again all the server? I dont mean your archnemesis, i get that, i mean vs all the server. If so ok good, but you have to be penalized in other areas and you must not be allowed to do so just because you are in a mega guild and there are others who do the same and others who farm for you.
A good game have to be good for every one, both small guilds and big guilds, you cant let the zerg win otherwise the game will die.
And dont forget, the launch window of AoC should be the same of League's MMO so if AoC want to have a slice of the pie need to be better then the others.
And onestly the point that ppl even think to do "competitive pvp" in a mmo is something that it dont understand, competitive pvp is based on skills, not gear/farm, the worst place where you can show how good you are and how you can dominate everybody because you are so good is an mmo. I respect their opinion when they say "copetitive pvp mmo" dont get me wrong, but i cant share the same way of thinking.
That is where politics come in, if you can't beat a zerg guild that is focusing you, work with other guilds to beat them. I don't understand this mentality of them attacking everyone one, that is borderline grieving, I don't remember a system in place that makes it so you can kill ever other guild on the server.
LoL mmorpg, are you on the payroll, how would you know the release window a that mmorpg? How do you know its even going to release to begin with they said if its not good they aren't releasing it.
It's getting complex. 300 guild members working together could be considered an operational deployment. We've drifted in and out of Mega Guild territories and now the lines are blurred.
7 raid groups could deploy in response to 20 guild members facing steep resistance. It would be blitz tactics and mass deployment tactics. You would soon learn who can deploy masses and who can not.
However, if a small guild gets enough buffs to match a 300 member guild then it is only fair that the 300 member guild is free to deploy all members when required. This is before we even consider the ramifications of 900 players from a full alliance.
It is doubtful these guilds could even mobilise the amount of people stated in my post. It would mean that all 300 players were just sitting around waiting for PvP which PvP guilds do do.
Therefore, you might run across the same guild at all local points of interest and would then only face PvP in specific points of interest dependant on operational needs and past beef.
Thank you for reaffirming my beliefs. Even so, I'm not sure how effective it will all be. If you can't fast travel with resources, and, at worst can lose 25% of resources if you don't go combatant, it's still not clear who will be sending the caravans for those people on the highway to waylay.
Not saying it will be higher or lower, but how did you get to the 25% conclusion?
There hasnt been any values mentioned it and the 25% dont seem logical to me.
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@Neurath that's not correct.
The family summon, by the last information we received, would allow you to summon your entire family within the spawn of a 60 second cast.
So itcwouldn't be a 16 v. 8, but a 64 v. 8
Steven and all of us know for a fact that especially tryhard groups, but anyone really, will abuse this system to gain advantages in a variety of ways if they can. The easiest way to visualize the abuse is this: imagine a guild has 96 members. This guild will have 12 different families with 8 guild members in each. What they will do is travel in a group of 12 people, each of them from a different family, and when they reach their destination they'll summon the remaining 84 players in a matter of minutes. And this number can go as high as you want. If a guild has 400 players, all they need is 50 "efficient families". Go somewhere in a group of 50, summon the other 350 people and proceed to do whatever you wanted to do.
If Steven does not want to give up the Family Summon, then they absolutely must nerf it and make it as useless as possible for any goal other than what was intended: "My concern is that the divide that's present in having a largely non-fast travel based traversal for the world might be a very significant encumbrance for more casual oriented players".
Simple ideas to nerf the Family Summon so that it's not so easily abusable by people with "tryhard" intentions but still useful for people who just want to meet up and play the game:
Will zergs still able to teleport any number of players they want to a city on the other side of the world? Yep, but at least now it's harder to be sneaky about it. And they'll be stuck there for 48 hours unless they run back to wherever they came from.
The system is intended for casual players to rejoin your friends easily instead of travelling for 60% of their daily online time.
I'm fine with that and i understand where he is coming from. As you said, it will mostly be used by the most active/dedicated guilds with optimized families...
I think there is one restriction that would shut this down completely and ensure that its only used for the intended design:
players can only be summoned if they, have played less than (TBD) 10 hours during the previous week.
Everybody can summon
Easy way to ensure those that want to abuse it won't be able to
You may even scale that so players who just exceeded it have a feelbad experience:
10-15h = 1 summon this week
5 - 10h = 3 summons
3 - 5h = 5 summons
1-3h = 7 summons
However, if someone joins a family through marriage, then that individual can divorce and leave the family. Some reasonable cool down for remarriage ought to apply.
"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.
If the main 'problem' the Family summon is meant to solve (people not being able to catch up with their friends when they don't have as much time to play and wanting to form up in group quickly), but this 'solution' also creates a bunch of problems, I'd settle for this.
1) I can still be killed but if rep is good in the area or the area is safe/secure for my Family in the first place, there's much less risk
2) The time to travel is not negated, only the player's need to pay close attention at all times to make sure they are going the right way
3) The summoning player would, if sensible, find a safe place to summon family to instead of 'wandering into some dungeon and then pulling everyone else past all the mobs magically'.
I can't speak for all players obviously but I personally don't usually have an issue 'finding the time to turn on the game and autorun somewhere', I just may not have the time to get there manually.
This would also allow for different escort services to work, or for 'having your best PvP player in the family join up with the one that will have to take the most dangerous path' and protect them, or stuff like that. Just make people's lives a LITTLE bit easier on gathering together without as much hassle, but they can keep all the risks.
If your family can manage to Autopath to a Boss location safely in potentially hostile territory, more power to them. Similarly if the whole Node wants to work together to bring down whatever threat, and people start 'summoning' their family, and no one attacks them on the way... great.
As I see it, the family TP is meant to completely cut out the time required to move from one place to the other. So if just one family member gets to login before the others, they can just summon everyone and they'll all play together once the others get online.
I'd assume guilds wouldn't use this system at all, cause they'd just get murdered by any gw player on their way to the summoner. And this wouldn't be usable to them when they're online, cause at that point they'd be better off running themselves.
I wouldn't hate it, assuming all the same restrictions, but I feel it might get a little weird to have characters 'moving in game without actually being online'.
If that's what it takes, though, then I'm all for it. Heck if you REALLY want to make it helpful to the players I feel this is targeted at, make it so that if they die while autopathing during the call they respawn at the spawnpoint nearest to their own forward path, or if within a certain range, at the one nearest to their Calling family member.
Will some people use that to bloodport to family? Sure. But assuming that you don't WANT to take the exp loss from dying when you don't have to, still works. No worse than 'vanishing from the safety of my Freehold to appear wherever my Rogue is'.
As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.
Looking around the previous information, I can already see how we, even as a solo player, can exploit/troll/grief almost everything and I don't think it's a good way to start the game with this mindset especially because, in the end they will have to fix and create systems to prevent these things from their side, we cannot expect the players themselves to solve these things, we are not in 2000 where technology does not allow many things to be done, and the fact that no one is talking of this it really worry me.
OLD = \ = GOOD
Now a lot can be done, and you can innovate in aspects that in the days of L2, Metin and the others of the time could not.
I personally have many good memories of those games and also of Wow, but looking at the past NOW with a CRITICAL EYE towards the gameplay and the contents I can say that they were all shitty games, maybe innovative and beautiful for their period but now not anymore.
Just take for example what happened with New World, to date it is 13k players, the peak at the release of the game was over 1 Million, in less than 6 months it has reduced for two simple reasons:
1. No endgame content
2. Wrong and poorly implemented systems and functions.
Some of you might say "Eh all the bugs in pvp, pve; The 7 or 8 bugs of duplicating items via auction, etc. etc." let me tell you if the game was nice and above all fun even with these bugs it would still have been played.
This is what they are supposed to do.
It's their right to take it, that's the game. Only one group will be able to claim the resources from a world boss and everyone has the right to contest. This scenario isn't a bad thing, it's different from the experience some games provide but is intended.
I think it's important to point out that this wont be the only content in the game and if you can't compete, there will be other activities for you to focus on to progress your character.
This is always the problem for MMOs and the one that I feel devs need to tackle first.
You have to throw out any concept of 'consequences' that mimic RL ones. Everything in an MMO can be solved with 'persistence that a living human could not have'.
Your character never gets so hungry that they can't function. They can stand in the middle of a swamp, fight monsters for 40 hours straight (their time) and not get sick. Even if they did get sick, they could theoretically go jump off a cliff take some exp debt and respawn healthy. They practically can't be punished for being bad other than effectively griefing the player out of the account.
You can't put 'good rewards' at the end of paths that people would take irl if they were all Wolverine. You can't even put 'deterrent punishments' on the bad paths they'd take and expect them to work as much anymore now that 'killing people on streams and laughing about it' can get fame.
Would any of us even accept it if the droprates for World Bosses were also influenced by:
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
From the wiki? I mean, we might have no choice, but if someone can stop you from getting the loot from the Boss just by killing you enough times during your attempt, and we assume that either 'side' starts off this way, now they've 'both lost' already. If the fight was even, now both sides have 'droprate reduction' and for many, their biggest interest would be 'prevent anyone else from killing it either, or if they can't prevent it, at least mess with their drop rate'.
You wouldn't even have much incentive to come to an alliance, you've already poisoned the well. The only thing the alliance would form to do probably is kill anyone ELSE who showed up.
IF they want to mimic IRL letting the game be driven by the player they NEED TO BECOME THE STATE and put in some rules otherwise WE will kill the game ourself, it already happened and will happen again, is easy to do it, and a that point only a miracle can bring a dead back to life. Humans without rules are nothing more than beast
And in any case what i fear is not a pvp 40vs40 for a boss, that i fear is the possibility of 1kvs40 for all bosses, with the addition of the summon and possibly many others way is plausible to say that the big gaming community (the biggest that i know are from russia and china) will dominate over everthing and NO, even if they are 10k, have 24h a day for 7 days a week, they dont deserve to own every single spot on the map, If the devs want a healty game they NEED TO PUT RULES.
Another example i can give you is Atlas, maybe you know it, maybe dont, doesnt matter, the game had 225 server on EU and one of the biggest community that i remember owend more that 1/3 of the map, around 85 server, every server had multiple island, they were everywere with a total of more than 20k player, with the other 2 big guild they played for around 3 to 6 month and then the game died. The devs are doing their best to update and bring the game back, and in some cases they are doing a good work but still is many years before can become a "good game"
With all that said, some of the best PvP fights can be had around Bosses and top PvE areas. We are already limited by Corruption and we do not also want to be limited by instanced world bosses. A world boss should cater to the world and pvp players are part of the world too.
I did not know that but im sure thing are open to change to balance it out lmao. That is a instant zerg.
I'll repeat it another time, I AM NOT AGAINST THE CONTESTED WORLD BOSS PVP, but it needs to be balanced so that it is not a guaranteed win for whoever has more free people to bring.
A good example would be that only X number of people can enter the area limited to X number of different guilds. If for example a boss requires 40 people, the first 40 enter and start the boss, that guild cannot let anyone else in and not even members of an alliance can enter, let's say then guild 2 arrives at that point the members of guild 2 they can enter, always 40 maximum, with the same rules applied above, they can enter up to X guilds/alliances, at which point it would be balanced and the mega guilds would have no way to win with numbers. I don't think it's technically difficult to perform considering all the other systems in the game. Obviously it took me two minutes to think of such a thing, so it is neither accurate nor exploit proof but it certainly can be refined and probably made quite safe and efficient leaving the space and feeling of the world boss as it is now.
Another rule could be that if you dont fight the one that started the boss you are locked out from that boss for the rest of the week, so if you go in and lock all the spot to let another guild do the boss for free you lose more that what you will gain if you play properly
If they are 10k then they are basically the whole server at that point and pretty much own the whole map wither they like it or not.
I also disagree to some extent. If a group of people own something, then they deserve to own it. Doesn't matter if they are part of a bigger group or not.
To me, this is one of those things you need to see how it happens first, the advantages being gained, and the options the others on the server. Yes, this has happened in games but it also hasn't happened in others, so understanding the differences is key to countering it.
Some things to note is in ashes, the are guild member limits which will force them to separate. Even if they can still coordinate, it can have tribal effects on people.
There is also limited resources in ashes so the bigger the zerg, the more people who will be giving up resources. Since progression is a part of the game, these people will be giving up an aspect of the game for the group. This will increase the chance that they might want to separate since as a part of the group, they have no chance but apart, they can at least fight.
Lastly, something i have noticed is in games with a high amount of skill expression, skilled players will want to test their skill, which they cant in a zerg. These players will leave for more competitive fights.
Not saying what you described won't happen but it hasn't yet and in every game it could happen, it doesn't. As i said, i think the best way to deal with it is to see how it happens to understand it first.
Another solution i talked about at the start of the post is to simply make the boss spawn multiple times a day and make it so that everybody know in advance, and make it in a way that you can loot it only one per week, at that point all the player can have the chance to engage in the pvp open world to contest that and the stronger will do it only once since there are no reward for doing it multiple times.
You say that the boss will give comparative loot, and the best gear is crafted, im ok with that, but how will i craft that gear? I will need rare material i suppose, so where do i get that material? Maybe world boss, maybe will drop from special or unique mob/resource, and if there are only a few place where i can farm that resource/mob we will be at the same situation, mega guild will camp that spot and the other player will not have even the chance to do something like that, at that point mega guild will stop the progression of the entire sever, the player from the server will move to another server, at some point the mega guild will move to because there are no one except them in said server and here we have a dead server and the cycle continue in another untill the game itself dies.
All i wish is and answer from the devs where they say that understand this concern and:
1. "we dont care, you deal with it, is part of how we want the game to be"
2. "we are still looking in ways to address this kind of things"
3. "we have system that can prevent this and they are:......"
An answer is all i want, doent matter what the anwer are.
then let me ask you this, are you willing to stay 24/7 in front of the boss just to fight again all the server? I dont mean your archnemesis, i get that, i mean vs all the server. If so ok good, but you have to be penalized in other areas and you must not be allowed to do so just because you are in a mega guild and there are others who do the same and others who farm for you.
A good game have to be good for every one, both small guilds and big guilds, you cant let the zerg win otherwise the game will die.
And dont forget, the launch window of AoC should be the same of League's MMO so if AoC want to have a slice of the pie need to be better then the others.
And onestly the point that ppl even think to do "competitive pvp" in a mmo is something that it dont understand, competitive pvp is based on skills, not gear/farm, the worst place where you can show how good you are and how you can dominate everybody because you are so good is an mmo. I respect their opinion when they say "copetitive pvp mmo" dont get me wrong, but i cant share the same way of thinking.
I can't possibly state what I will and won't do in each eventuality because it purely depends on the circumstances in question. PvP players are generally masochists who are willing to fight for whatever they want. The amount of time it will take to reach the World Boss means few people are going to simply walk off and leave the world boss to someone else.
I think you are too focused on the world boss which aren't only content. If a group has it locked down, go do something else.
It's funny you bring up the League MMO since in League, farming and gear play a large roll in the game's outcome and you secure pve objectives with tactics other than player skill.
Just because a game has pvp, doesn't mean it needs to be considered competitive to be fun.
You should probably expect Ashes to be more competitive in terms of crafting and economy than PvP or boss kills. Lots of players who play similar games have basically assured me that the PvP itself and contested bosses situation doesn't exist in the same way as in those games.
PvP is probably going to end up being more of a side-thing, particularly if corruption penalties are harsh.
You're right, my bad.
I specifically meant, and should have said, Open World PvP.
Objective Based PvP will be one of the biggest catalysts of change in Ashes.
Open World PvP will probably mostly be a distraction from influential content such as what you mentioned, and at 'worst' OwPvP encounters will be an obstacle you could just disengage from if you needed to, or jump in on for fun and to create chaos (which appears to be the OP's perception of a problem).
If no one can kill the boss because it's completely a chaotic deathzone, the people moving their caravans while others are clustered around the boss will be the ones that determine things.
I mean we are very focused on the world boss in this thread but we must not lose sight of all the other pvp opportunities which don't run the risk of corruption.
Seeing as we can also clear corruption from any PvE entity these days, the best start would be the world boss after a lovely little scrap.
That is where politics come in, if you can't beat a zerg guild that is focusing you, work with other guilds to beat them. I don't understand this mentality of them attacking everyone one, that is borderline grieving, I don't remember a system in place that makes it so you can kill ever other guild on the server.
LoL mmorpg, are you on the payroll, how would you know the release window a that mmorpg? How do you know its even going to release to begin with they said if its not good they aren't releasing it.
7 raid groups could deploy in response to 20 guild members facing steep resistance. It would be blitz tactics and mass deployment tactics. You would soon learn who can deploy masses and who can not.
However, if a small guild gets enough buffs to match a 300 member guild then it is only fair that the 300 member guild is free to deploy all members when required. This is before we even consider the ramifications of 900 players from a full alliance.
It is doubtful these guilds could even mobilise the amount of people stated in my post. It would mean that all 300 players were just sitting around waiting for PvP which PvP guilds do do.
Therefore, you might run across the same guild at all local points of interest and would then only face PvP in specific points of interest dependant on operational needs and past beef.
Not saying it will be higher or lower, but how did you get to the 25% conclusion?
There hasnt been any values mentioned it and the 25% dont seem logical to me.