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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
CLASS affect CHARACTER LOOK
Sapiverenus
Member
Level 50 fighter should look more muscular than a level 1.
Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.
It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.
Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.
If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.
Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.
Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.
Actually one of the reasons I like the idea of 'Exhaustion' in the game is how it can specifically affect the way the player gains stats and changes their appearance. Closer to exhaustion and more often, with more food, the greater muscle gain; since that's how muscle increases.
It should boil down to whether your head is big enough to be a level 50 Wizard, and whether your muscles are big enough to be a level 50 Fighter. Minimum thresholds.
Unarmed fighter? Big hands. Carrying big backpack everywhere with 100 lbs in it? Larger frame.
If you start with an anorexic Fighter or Tank and another person starts with the buffest possible Fighter or Tank; the buffest should become buffer probably through definition and ridiculous levels of buff; while the anorexic person reaches good but not crazy levels of buff.
Haven't eaten in days while hiking marathons with 200 lbs of stuff on? Lose some weight.
Wizard? Big head, facial hair. Ranger? well-rounded and broad back, broad waist too. Rogue? Lean and mean. Darker or more 'charismatic' look. Necromancer? Pale. Cleric? More balanced features I guess. Bard? Warm complexion.
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Comments
The ideas you are talking about here need to be a part of a game from inception, not shoehorned in after a few years of development. These ideas also dont mesh overly well with a game that has you purchase your characters looks - they need to be a part of a game where your characters look is purely a product of in game activities.
Much of the look would still be there. The face would be similar. The level of change can be tuned.
In fact, you can preview what the level 50 char is going to look like and 'steer' the proportions, easily.
The point is you slowly become your class (class becomes part of character).
Your skeleton Fighter doesn't have to become an Orc leveling to 50. But there should be some significant change.
If information is hidden for PvP it is better to have a sense of what class someone probably is as they approach you or before you approach them.
It's more organic and makes the World more real than seeing goofy shit all the time. It's worth it, over cheap gags.
The Character Creator makes it easy to have this kind of "Character Progression".
If you tie appearance to stats, people will minmax it to the point where you only see a handful of template characters for any given role. You can even see this effect in the real world just by pure selection pressure, imagine how bad it would be in a world where you can choose your appearance.
I don't mind the idea of your character physically changing based on what they do, in fact I think that's a really cool idea, but it should definitely be optional and purely visual.
Ahhhhh, HoMM3 flashbacks from your username
Good times
1) define your look
2) define part of the build.
To take example everyone will easily see... Dnd3.5 (or currently, pathfinder)
with moon elf, you get +2 dex -2 con, and with shield dwarf... +2 con and -2 dext.
Both could be good with bow, but elf far better... while the dwarf is more fitted for front line spot.
And to follow what customers asked... most games now, including pen&paper RPG reduced the impact of the race in builds... The race restriction on classes is now see as a flaw for games. And wizard of the coast, in oneD&D (the 6th edition) will allow to have any base racial bonus with any race.
The global tendency so is... decorelate the character look with the character role. This is not what us here on this forum ask, this is what majority of RPG enjoyers (be it on video game or pen&paper) asked. . . I admit myself not fan of this, this is another reason for me to prefer dd3.5/pathfinder to dd5... but after speaking with lot of people clearly, "the liberty to chose the character look without have it to impact the character build" is clearly what majority wants, explaining this choice from game creators. . .
You idea is worse than the race choice for the build. I mean, you consider fighter to have big muscle... what about swashbuckler ? those are more on fighter side than rogue side but are not based on strength. maybe there will be good fighter build using dagger which, in people's mind is bind to... dext not str
So your idea has 2 flaws :
It is against what most people wants (so push the game in a niche... and you dislike niche)
It reduce the character customisation and not make it grow.
I feel like this doesn't represent real life very well, only a shallow and possibly misguided perception of it.
We used to think that a lot of these things were VERY tied to physical traits, now we mostly know that they're not, particularly in a game with magic and lots of well made martial weaponry, and, as with most MMOs, minimal grappling/ability to knock down the opponent and fight on the ground.
This just leads into weird things similar to genderlocked games too.
You say 'Wizard, big head, facial hair', but then what's 'Witch'?
No need to make a character's physical features change based on your experience/class/level/whatever else. One thing I would be a fan of is for hair to grow and in case it doesn't grow I hope you can change your hair color/size and add/remove tattoos if you go to a magical hairdresser NPC.
So, at least for now, any other physical appearance changes are unnecessary and one should be able to get the appearance they want during character creation.
I didn't mean that appearance affects stats, but that stats affects appearance.
Character customization in itself is a gimmick and people ask for dumb stuff all the time.
The REAL trend is to lose spine and bend to every whim of customers once the money starts rolling in LMAO
Based on attributes is what I intended and I don't intend for initial appearance to really affect stats, but there be a limit to how extreme your character visually can deviate from your attribute.
Nothing should really be detracting from the world.
Gimmick Goofy Jokes can lie in their Grave.
Again: People complain, say, ask for, hate, dumb shit all the time.
People who start a company have spine and that softens over-time as money and ### of customers start going up.
When they have no profits and small ## of customers -> spine is intact because it's less intimidating.
I'd like to keep range and look for a large pool of examples.
Muscle and such still impacts strength and definitely injury prevention. Someone 'gifted' in powerlifting can be pretty scrawny but usually have the bone/limb/torso structure for it and use minimal range of motion. Strength, Agility, Stamina, and Constitution is still very much tied to standard muscle.
For those that are scrawny and running ultra-marathons: they are doing everything to keep their weight minimal. If you increase the weight on their body slightly their endurance suffers greatly. They only have endurance at a very low level of strength.
For strength athletes: Look at Strongman competitions.
For agility: Agile people have a minimum of musculature or are quite small. Even basketball players, being tall and 'lanky' are more muscular. Sprinters have a decent amount of leg musculature (definition & size).
Combining any physical attributes, expanding the range of motion, increasing variability; you get muscle. Through extreme focus, extremely focusing one's 'ability', you get deviations from such.
So general physicality boils down to muscle. Very important for injury prevention as well.
Muscle growth generally boils down to pushing close to strength failure then using less weight and pushing close to failure again (which can be done by doing a different exercise that uses that muscle somewhat).
So if a person never pushes to muscular exhaustion they are taking a long long long road to the goal, and will, all else equal, have a worse baseline fitness compared to someone who simply pushed to failure on exercises.
Strength, Agility, and even Stamina and Constitution are partially 'skill' though. That 'skill' can help one target specific areas they want to improve as well.
So yes it has some layers to it.
As for Mages, Summoners, Bards and Clerics -->> who knows lol. It would have to be tied to their magic more than something physical. But Wizards probably strain their brain pretty hard all the time, similar to PUSHING TO THE LIMIT for muscle growth so Big Head makes perfect sense. I can relate, my head is big and so are my muscles, and I know why LMAO. Same push to exhaustion for my brain as well.
Right but there's a difference between:
"I have a naturally large head and brain."
and
"I have so many ideas and think so much of them that I have a swelled head."
The difference doesn't need to be elaborated upon. Both can exist; and I am pretty sure anyone with a big head pushes their brain (reality here). Unless their skull is extremely thick or something and/or there's a lot of tissue wrapped around it.
Those that push their mind may not have a big brain but sharp features instead though; just like one can have definition rather than size with muscle.
Features as in, facial features?
I'm really not too versed in the morphology of the brain-to-facial-structure connection, so I'm not sure if you mean something else.
Face tends to express a person's mind and brain as well. Eyes formed by pinching a piece of brain while in the womb, something with that would make sense too.
Test out level 10 versions of each race and class, with their unique attributes before creating a character.
Max level is planned to be 50 btw.
Race: Different stats! Different skills!
Class: Different stats! Different skills!
So feel how fast, strong, slow, weak, powerful, et cetera they all are in a quick 'switch between' test mode.
Instead of having the option to spawn enemies and switch between races and classes in the standard way, have a physical map that changes your race and class based on where you are! Fuck menus!
In fact, character creator could start there! Game could just be ->
Basically you move through the small branching map to pick your race and class. Each is like a microcosm representative of the 'choice' you're picking.
then 9 paths/ tunnels/ hallways/ trails/ whatever leading out of the starting area to pick your race (however many there are)
then 8 paths or whatever for each class.
All of them should be like their own microcosm, think "Caverns of Time" world of warcraft except much better, much more style, and some ON POINT thematic stuff. Bit of Alice in Wonderland, Caverns of Time, even optical illusion (through the looking glass alice in wonderland) type stuff.
For each race + class, there is a safe area and a dark place to go to to fight enemies!
This permits playtesting before committing; tryout of level 10
Kill the enemies reach the end of the cave and go through the portal to enter a small underground chamber with a faintly illuminescent pool of water at the opposite end with some sort of arches around it seemingly chiseled from the rough cave stone! Enter the pool of water then suddenly --> the player can't move! the water turns into a solid and starts climbing up the player and dragging it down! Translucent star and galaxy speckled purple cosmic goop???? With a spinning flow [vortex] starting from the edges rather than the center?
Then: CHARACTER CUSTOMIZATION MODE!
Devs, Make the character customization background look good and reflect one's race and class choice and the fact they're portaling through the cosmos, rather than be a blank slate or simply "thematic" to their race/class.
Have the face make expressions characteristic of the race and class, and the situation they're in -> some sort of DESCENT INTO THE MATERIAL PLANE.
Then: VERRA!
Easy win, Intrepid.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/Rt8G3sNYac
"Would ruin the whole point of it"
The point of it is customization. You still would get customization. And PoE doesn't provide any individual nuanced customization (beyond class) whatsoever.
You make no point through BS exaggeration LMAO it's just whining.
The beard thing is somewhat of a joke but there's a reason people look the way they do and for the physical traits tied to Physical classes there is ample evidence, experience, and basic reasoning to determine it; it is easy to assess.
For Magic classes there is research and examples that can be studied, but something simply thematic like looking a bit more aligned to the magic you use can be nuanced and effective at conveying the influence of their practice.
Who thinks cheap gags are fun? Better question: Who cares if people complain they can't pull cheap gags?
Everyone else (and probably you after you stop complaining about it) appreciate playing an RPG in a 'World' where your choices fuckin' matter. You choose Rogue? That has an impact. Rather than no impact and your cheap lazy c u s t o m joke character having 999x the visual impact than how your character actually works and how you play the game.
- the character creator is the nuanced customization. That is all that's needed. Also if you are going to quote someone at least use the full sentence in context. I said "..forcing conformity in aesthetic for classes would ruin the whole point of customization.. You cannot give people customization and also say but if your character doesn't appear nimble your rogue build is impacted.
I'm not exaggerating I'm stating facts the system you propose is mutually exclusive and forcibly creates a meta for character creation and your class. This system is stupid.
Yes, irl a strong muscled figure would be able to carry more than a smaller thinner built character no one disputes this, it's still shit game design, having carrying capacity or damage potential forces the meta, where if you play a rogue and are tall you lose stealth potential makes having the ability to be a tall rogue in the first place dumb hence my comment about then reducing down to an archetypical character similar to PoE or Diablo.
No there are no real life examples to study because magic isn't real, theres no reason your magician can't be toned, young and strong like Gambit, or Harry Dresden. Rather than using magic determining your look, you can solve this by having gear buff certain actions and if your a fire mage your gonna want the fire gear, but I also support a transmog system so if you want to firemage while looking like a rogue or tank I think you should be able to.
Choosing rogue already has impact on how I play I equally do not care that you would find it immersion breaking for a giant rogue to drop stealth behind you when your character clearly should have been able to see them since they are so big.
Gear can and should in most instances resolve what you want forcing a meta for your character look is a terrible idea. There is no reason for a complex character creator if how you look can break your preferred play style. Again if that's what you want they would be better off giving Rogue 1, Rogue 2 character templates because the meta would inevitably reduce to that anyways.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/Rt8G3sNYac
No one said the class build is heavily impacted working within appropriate ranges.
I am saying there should be limits to customization but a range should still exist.
If you're referring to racials then yeah that should have an impact. Choose a different race. Cry that you were born as a Dwarf and will never be as nimble a Rogue as a max level Rogue Elf, or play a Mage or something.
Another word for "forcing the meta" is "choosing your class and race". jfc. They're basic decisions you make for yourself. They are obvious and clear. They make sense. Gimp yourself if you really feel so compelled to bleed victimhood everywhere you go.
Tall Rogues can simply squat lower or crawl if they need to hide in some grasses. They might blend into a tree better.
You're exaggerating some things here.
A tough Dwarf Rogue has some use; figure out its use.
Surviving AoE? OK. Surviving someone's Burst? OK. Within a limited scope they already have some use.
Something else good about being a Dwarf? Crafting?
I think a Dwarf Rogue should become a bit lankier, shorter torso perhaps, by level 50 if they aren't already customized that way. In fact, it should go beyond the limited ranges of the character creator; the changes that come from Progressing as a Rogue.
If you want a soft-lock on customization then take the temporary low-level Gimp then transform into a lanky shadowy bearded short fellow.
When you're a level 50 something you should appear ARCHETYPICAL
You simply do not have a free choice if the system you want is implemented, your last statement exemplifies this even if you keep pretending it doesn't, your choice is conform to the dev built meta or "Gimp yourself. That isn't a choice.
Honestly the more you go the more inane the idea seems. No I do not want a soft-lock on character customization, I do not want a low-level gimp to transform, and if I did create a character that looks gimped I wouldn't want them to suddenly start looking differently outside of my control. I'm all for unlocking cosmetic items like hairstyles or tattoos / scars based on in game achievements. Developers changing my character is and will continue to be a bad idea.
The Wolves of Verra
are recruiting: https://discord.gg/Rt8G3sNYac
So the Lore is deeply inspired by pathfinder... right ?
There, comes the problem about "archetypal" for magic... "mage" speaks often about magicien and... sorcerer. main difference being one is based on intelligence, other on... charisma (intuitiv spellcaster)
in another way to say it : we don't know how the magic work in the case of vera (inspired does not avoid to have lot of change) but "intuitiv magic" not being based on INT but CHA is really a thing...
Charisma being not really on the "skin" but also lot thru global behaviour, how to speak...
Or you would say that the higher level the female inuitiv mage is, the bigger her cup is ? :-°
So, here's the problem.
You are talking about generalizations, and suggesting that the game force these on to everyone. The problem with this (even just in real life) is that there are always exceptions.
In the scientific world (the closest analogy to magic users if magic is research/intellect based), we obviously have Einstein. The thing is, we also have a Oliver Sacks - a Neurologist, who happened to also be a bit of a body builder.
Now sure, Oliver grew a bit of a beard in later life, but then we could also look at Professor Brian Cox. Do an image search of him and tell me how he fits in with forcing a look on characters based on class.
Even in sports this doesnt work. Sure, basketball has people like Shaq, and Tacko Fall, but it also has/had people like Muggsy Bouges - 5'3", and played 14 seasons.
The problem with generalizations is that there are always exceptions. People PREFER to play as these exceptions rather than the generalization, so forcing that generalization on to people will never go well.
That's actually good because then the devs, or anyone really, are actually able to see how many shit ideas exist and that not every player/player type needs to be catered to.
WoW player? Cash whale?
You start with no character then let a dev give you choices; and then let yourself play a game entirely made by, balanced by, planned by, filled with features by, the dev. You let the dev kill your character. The dev decides difficulty, and how powerful your class is. You let the dev decide what is available to your character. You are given the character by the dev.
And most MMOs before this did not have much of any customization yet people talk about "ruining the game". Clearly no one gave a shit when they dumped 1000 hours into Runescape, Everquest, WoW, et cetera.
Most people don't care about playing Barbie's Dressup or whatever.
@Aerlana
Whatever makes sense
@BaSkA13
Same can be said to you.
But at the end of the day Sharif is not God and God does not give a shit if you jump into a septic tank and go wild with excitement; nothing cares if a Good or Shit game is made or whether you gleefully eat Shit or Dirt.
Or whether you rage and become abyssmally depressed because Sharif doesn't make the game you want.
Whatever is made, I have better uses of my time.
Hakunamatata
If you work out in real life and everything including your face changes, are you going to complain because you love to be miserable for your warped Ego's sake, and would have to confront the reality that you are mentally and were physically flawed if you decide to change and appreciate the changes?
Or just appreciate the changes?
Priorities. Maturity.