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Dev Discussion #45 - Gathering and PvP



  • I don't know what the lore behind the percentage of materials dropped is. Why is not 100% dropped?
    I'll assume that this percentage is somehow influenced by the Gods through the Essence.

    Then the gatherer who is afraid by a certain class could bring some gifts or do quests to the corresponding religion in order to lower the percentage dropped if is defeated by that class.
    But the overall percentage over all classes must remain the same or increase.
    There are 8 classes and only 7 religions so maybe the gap could consider that the player is not supposed to influence the % dropped when fighting against it's own class.

    So if the gatherer is afraid or wants to defend against the Rogue class, it would have to increase the percentage against some other class, for example Cleric.
    This correspondence should be decided by the developers, depending how the classes are designed (the rock paper scissor relationship between them)
    If the gatherer would like to lower the percentage against both Rogue and Cleric, then he would have to do more more things with more religions.

    Eventually the gatherer could reduce the percentage against those who is afraid of but also sacrificing some percentage against the classes he is confident he can defeat.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • GutzgoreGutzgore Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    -From this perspective, your goal is to find the most plump target. That is, the one with the most materials to drop and of the materials the most rare and also a target you know or believe you can take down. Of course as a combatant your not going to know what they have to drop, but you can do some reasoning based on the area they are gathering in, their gear, who they are with and behaviors etc. The risk obviously would be, is the target worth attacking for a reward I believe they have? (if your actually evaluating and not just killing to do so).
    I feel like this portion of the gameplay is fine. I don't think Combatants should get any extra help here.

    On the other hand, I do think that some forgiveness to a gatherer should be warranted.
    I do not think that gatherers should be overly protected though.

    If I'm a gatherer and spent 2-3 hours getting rare materials. It could be extremely frustrating to loose everything. That in mind, I would be good with the gatherer having at least some means to mitigate losses. As a gatherer, you are taking a larger risk than a combatant. Its likely why you are a target to begin with. You have spent time and effort out in the world that isn't to be minimalized and something like that could make people just log off. Especially if your gameplay is to just do profession type stuff and your not doing other gameplay loops. I know if was personally doing some gathering, I would like to prepare a little bit before I go out so that I can mitigate some losses if I die.

    Here are maybe some ideas.

    -A combatant with each kill begins to loose a certain parentage of loot that drops from the target, like -3% each kill or something like that and stacks to a certain point (12%) for a certain amount of time. (though I'd prefer the next idea over this one)
    -A gatherer who has been recently killed only looses a certain percentage of loot. Again maybe only -3% each time they die. Maybe this stacks up to a certain point (12%) for a certain amount of time if you just get this crazy run of bad luck and are killed over and over (not necessarily by the same player)
    -A gatherer has a magical bag that is very, very limited but can store materials gathered in here that are safe from being looted. This bag would have to be crafted by a profession and maybe only has 1 charge to it and over time the bag will degrade and break. This way it provides another game loop for crafters to remake these bags and the magical charges to go with it. It should be semi difficult to get these.
    -Maybe you can pray to your god and get a loot drop buff.
    -Maybe there are potions or other items that can modify how much loot is dropped. Again, this should be somewhat difficult to get.
    -There could be an ability that you would need to spec in, that can give them a loot drop buff percentage.

    One thing though, this shouldn't become a chore to prep to go out and gather. Not sure how that could be balanced, but again just some thoughts.

    Oh and I really would like to see gathering similar to New World where you can cut down any tree you see, almost any rocks and plants everywhere... the gathering in that game was so satisfying the way it works along with their sound effects. Please make AoC so that I can just go start grabbing up stuff. Feels really good this way.

  • In regards to some recent comments downplaying the risk that gankers receive in the given prompt scenario. Its more than "just a little corruption", and nobody here has any idea how hard or easy any amount will be to work off. 2 or 3 percent experience at max level could be several hours to work off as far as we know.
    And here are the risks/punishments for becoming corrupted, since most here seem to think it is merely a slap on the wrist.

    -Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained.[11] The higher the corruption score:
    The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[2][12][13] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[14]

    -A corrupt (red player) suffers penalties at four times[7] the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes:[7][13]
    Dropping weapons and gear.[7][16]

    Any amount of corruption allows a player to drop equipped gear upon death. The higher the corruption the greater the chances.[72] – Steven Sharif
    These dropped items may be looted by other players.[73]

    -Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.[74]
    Non-corrupt players always respawn at the closest active respawn point (to their death).[75]

    -Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained (not just at death).[11]

    -Corrupted players can be attacked regardless of other affiliations. This is something that will be tested during Alpha-2.[17]

    -If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant.[18]
    -Non-combatants who heal, buff, or otherwise assist combatants or corrupted players will be flagged as combatants.[19][20]

    -A corrupt player’s location is revealed to bounty hunters on their world map.[7][4]

    -Player to player trading and the ability to store items in public warehouses is disabled for corrupt players.[23

    -Corruption has a visible effect on a player’s appearance.[27]

    -NPC guards will kill corrupted players on sight.[44]

    -Experience debt will scale to approximately 2 or 3 percent of the total XP for a max level player. These numbers are subject to change based on testing.[77]

    -There is a 60 second timer to logout while corrupt.[56]

    Do you still believe that corruption isn't harsh enough to provide the proper amount of risk for killing a gatherer?
  • I think if corruption is properly tuned, that would be adequate protection for gatherers. For example, if a player decides to kill a similar level player to take some of their gatherables, knowing that they will be on the run for the next hour or so, and with all the potential penalties that come along with corruption, then it shouldn't be so common an occurence that gatherers are constantly being griefed. Killing masses of lower level players should make the PKer so corrupted that they will be red for the next 24 - 48 hours, and weakened to the point that they will likely lose to most bounty hunters that find them, so that this kind of behavior is virtually unheard of.

    My big concern would be that there would be some way to exploit the corruption away, for example by using an alt to kill your corrupted player until the corruption is gone. I know there is an xp debt associated with that, but will max level players care?

    Archeage had the interesting sounding idea of putting toxic players in jail for their crimes after a trial with player jurors, but on the fresh start servers I've played on in the past few years, all they have to do is glitch their way out of jail and get a new trial over and over until a more sympathetic jury let's them go. If players in AoC can find a similar method of avoiding the penalties from corruption, the system will be a failure.
  • mrboingymrboingy Member
    edited October 2022
    Well there are many aspects to this.. but i will try and make this as simple as it gets.
    Ashes of creation strives to bring back those old days where the mmo genre had a social aspect in it, people actually played together, they needed to play together and that did all the difference.. together is better.

    In my opinion you should incentivize warriors to protect and escort gatherers while they are gathering, by somehow benefiting from it.. this way gatherers can feel a bit more safe and it will also give more social meaning to the game. Its a win win situation.
  • HazardousHazardous Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    Have similar thought as @ShinyBubbles, with a craftable lockbox. Maybe different levels of craftabel boxes. With limited storages for recourse material. When killed the box drops and can't be picked up by other players, but the lock must be picked to access the recourses.
    Well crafted boxes will be harder to pick.
    Then it will be a decision by the player if they want the trade off by taking the time to picking the lock and reap the reward.
    But then risk that the player they killed will respawn and get back to the area to protect their loot.
  • I think gankers who are over-leveled or in groups attacking single players ruin the PvP & PvE experience for everyone. I've seen it, and experienced it in a number of mmo's. They are basically just online asshats who aren't fighting on any sort of fair playing field. No honor or skill, just higher stats, gear, numbers, etc... There are a number of people that seem to always argue for full loot, no penalty systems, that fall into that category.

    I think to help mitigate this type of toxic game play with regard to these types of people ganking gatherers you could lessen the drop rate from the gatherers they kill by a percentage for every level they are above the player they just ganked, and, in addition, for every number of players exceeding the number of gatherers present. For example, if one player was gathering, and he or she is jumped by a gang of four players near the same level (let's say there is +5 level buffer/no penalty zone), then the rate of the goods dropped would decrease by 3x of whatever percentage you set as the penalty. If there were 2 gatherers present, then the drop penalty would reduce to 2x, and so on. For one vs. one, no penalty. Now, say these four losers were ten levels above the gatherer(s) they are ripping off. Then, the amount of materials dropped by the gatherer would be reduced by the 3x penalty multiplier for the excessive players plus a 5x over-level penalty per player (10 levels over less the +5 levels over no penalty buffer = 5 levels of charged penalty).

    With this type of system, the risk is still there for a gatherer who is legitimately engaged by another single player of at or near (within +5 levels) the same level. However, the toxic high level or multiplayer ganking becomes less profitable, especially coupled with the corruption system. That's my 2 cents.
  • Has there been any discussion about limiting characters to push socialization in the game?

  • I still can't believe people aren't thinking about the social aspect of killing a gatherer – their guild and node having a dedicated blacklist of bandits to not associate with and/or kill on sight.

    And also, there's a whole lot of discussion that paints gatherers as walking lootboxes that are incapable of sending an attacking idiot to goddess in a closed casket.

    It's not EVE or FFXIV, you guys – gathering gear will be in separate slots.
  • I think protection of your loot should come via other players/npcs like City guards or maybe a hired mercenary.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited October 2022
    Temkkey wrote: »
    I think protection of your loot should come via other players/npcs like City guards or maybe a hired mercenary.
    City guards, only if the mayor allows it and that only if citizens pay taxes as those guards deserve a wage too, food, gear... and should not go too far, like to the other side of the map.

    Hired mercenary is ok. Attackers can hire too. But those should be less skilled compared to the city guards.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Sorry if this has already been suggested.

    How about artisan gatherer's have access to (from player crafting, purchasing from high level NPCs, or questing for) a magical container of sorts, that holds their gathered materials and requires additional effort on behalf of the person who killed them, to open and collect a limited amount of the contents?
  • Hallo. I love the concept so far. There are three things important to me in regard of the Topic (gathering and PvP). First: please do not change the System after release. Huge changes in that System will be emotionally stressful. Second: please keep in mind that gathering people hate to get robbed all the time, so may consider a cool down for loosing collected things (some minutes for example) And Third: The amount must be big but not to big. 8% with fighting back and 16% for not defending is for a gatherer a lot. 25% for fighting back and 50% for not defending your self is sure to much for gathering people.Please consider that It's like in real life, whoever starts the fight already has an advantage. Thank you for your attention :-)
  • NaaruOracleNaaruOracle Member
    edited October 2022
    Probably the biggest concern I have without proper balancing is no one wanting to be a gatherer and those players who choose to attack spending their time guarding high cost resource areas waiting for people to gather and then stealing all the loot every time.

    Something that I think would be cool for mitigating the attacks of other players would be the ability of gatherers to hire a bodyguard or possibly bodyguards depending on the dangers in the area. Having other players who can accept a quest and protect you sounds like a fun in world scenario. There could also be skills of invisibility when gathering and protective shields that you can maintain while running away. I like crafting but have stayed away from it a lot because it's so separated from the main story and other aspects of gameplay. If gathering became a social event with other players and the danger of being attacked it would be a lot more thrilling and interesting to play. Getting ganked can be super annoying but with the corruption system and some of the ideas I have read and am suggesting I would be a lot less pissed when it happens if I felt I truly was able to fight back or had the possibility of an escape route.
  • SoggyBandaidSoggyBandaid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't have much experience in the realm of open world MMO PVP. So, I'm not sure if any of these ideas are outside AoC mission or unbalanced, but the ideas that stick out to me are:
    - Implementing some sort of system or social support to allow solo gatherers to recruit body guards without needing to be part of a formal guild or alliance. There are a ton of possibilities, but anything a bit more streamlined than spamming chat would be great.
    - Gathering bags with lower percent drop than normal loot. This option could potentially scale with higher gatherers having access to more secure bags.
    - A lock box item for storing high value items with a timer to unlock. The idea here is that a gatherer could put rare drops into a lock box that would drop on death. However, the ganker would need a specified time out of combat to pick the lock. I think this could be a great addition to the risk/reward structure because thieves would need to return to safety to lock pick loot, and it could provide interesting dynamics around really valuable loot such as raid materials.

    Like I said, not sure if any of these are fun, but they would be options I would like as a player who gathers more than he ganks.
  • I found the solution!

    It is called the Pareto Principle or the 80/20 rule.
    According to it, both the PvP-er and the Gatherer have to win the conflict 80% of time to be happy and to not leave the game.

    But if that cannot be solved, the fallback solution would be that both the PvP-er and the Gatherer must get/keep 80% of the resources, so that they are both happy. (the gatherer will have his reputation tarnished a bit though)

    Anyway, Steven has to generate some resources for both the winner and the loser.
    Why Steven? Because he came up with the idea of having a large map, no teleportation to town, scarce resources, owPvP and with a demanding mastery... for gathering too.
    Becoming a master Crafter or a master Processor or a master Gatherer should be a significant time investment and resource investment; and because of that it should also be something that when you achieve that status it's like people on the server know who you are.[57] – Steven Sharif

    Of course whoever will spend a significant time gathering, will have less time training in PvP, unless volunteers come to the gathering spot to "offer" this training, so that gatherers can be useful during sieges too.

    Will players abuse this? Of course they'll do that. So what will Steven do? Change the rules? :naughty:
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NavvNavv Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    As talked about on streams, "gathering gear" is an undergarment thus the playing field is even for both parties. So there should be no issues with this system. As long as there are options for engaging or disengaging fights.
    If TTK is not too short it will create good engaging moments for both parties.

    The current system that we know of on how drops and corruption work depending on the player state (green,purple,red) seems to benefit the gatherer in most scenarios. If there will be anything in place to discourage outnumberd fights it would be great as well. (Supposedly the plan is for the gathering to be something mostly done solo)
  • GandalfthegrapeGandalfthegrape Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't think this should be full rust/ minecraft style. Those games are based on regular wiped and resets. Once you get your resources to a city or a specific location like a bank you shouldn't be able to lose them. If I put my money in a bank and the bank burns down I don't lose my money. I just go to a different bank and withdraw it. If i go running and i lose my wallet my money is gone. If a city is sacked you shouldn't lose more than 10-20 of your raw resources non compounding over multiple sieges. This will honestly just ruin the game for over 80% of the player base if you log out for a week because you need to take your kid to the hospital or you need to travel for a funeral. The city is sacked 4 times and all your stuff is gone. This is why games like rust keep adding more and more retention systems like blueprints. You should lose 0 crafted items anytime anywhere. If i get an item drop and i put it in the bank in a city. The city gets raided while im offline and my item is deleted. I'm quitting. It's not like rust where I need to find a rad suit, a water bottle, 80 cloth, and 3 keycards and I can get every item in the game in like 3 hours and the game wipes every week anyway so losing stuff doesn't matter. This is a veeeery long drawn out process taking hundreds of hours to gather and craft. If that can be wiped out while you are offline, or for most people at all, they will quit no second chances. That being said I think raw resources while you are out in the world should be fair game and explode off of you like items in minecraft. If you can lose items during a sack its mandatory to have a large enderchest that has an infinite scaling for every piece of gear you collect and any item that takes a medium+ amount of effort to get excluding something like raw materials. I don't give a shit if lose a black lotus but if i put thunderfury or a binding of the windseeker in the bank or im walking around with it and it gets deleted because someone killed me or the city gets sacked im done. It's ok to lose 10 hours of work in rust because you can very easily rebuild the same amount in 2 or 3 hours because of blueprints. Losing 200 hours of resource gathering because you died a single time will make the majority of people playing quit instantly.

    No one has fun losing their stuff. People don't want to risk everything they want to feel like they are risking everything. You have fun killing people and getting a bunch of stuff.

    Perhaps if you die and lose raw materials you get a buff that increases the amount of resources you gather by 100% for an hour. This will cyclically encourage more and more people to farm while they can and then do more and more caravans. Making the loss seem less relevant.

    Losing processed materials is fine too if they aren't hard to replace. If all I need to do is go to a forge to smelt copper i don't care if i lose copper bars. If i need to do 6 raids, 9 battle grounds, farm specs of ore for 6 months then walk at -99% movement speed for 50 km to make 1 bar of mithril and I can lose that bar of mithril because I died a single time. That's a quit, uninstall, and go to every forum i can possibly find and ruin the reputation of the game.

    You NEED some sort of comeback mechanic or people simply wont play.
  • I believe the question is what could be added to help protect gatherers from PVP'ers. I think there shouldn't be too much protection. Someone who chooses to PVP takes on alot of risk with the corruption system and bounty system, no need to add more and more barriers to PVP to the point it's not worth it. However, I do see the other side. An immunity time could be used to stop people from being griefed and camped. For example, if someone dies they cannot be damaged for 20 minutes, let's say. The player could also have the option of ending the timer manually so they can go right back out and participate in the PVP. The timer would help people who don't wish to PVP to farm in that 20 minute timer, or BETTER yet leave the area and find a new spot. I think PVP is a core element to the game and should be kept that way and not be watered down with massive safe areas, no loot drops on death, etc. In my experience in playing NEW WORLD I loved the open world PVP, unfortunately you could toggle PVP on and off, mix that with the fact that PVP was not worth it and there you go. I couldn't find anyone with their PVP turned on, that killed the game for me.

  • It would be a good thing to have a mix of methods employed for different resources.

    Soloable gathering and Caravan gathering

    Soloable gathering of certain resources should limit the size/quantity of the resource you can gather, greatly, just due to the nature of what is being gathered.

    Caravan gathering for mining...your mayor(traders guild/whatever) would decide to set up a mine where large deposits are located. Caravans are a must for transportation, and will be used by all players mining in the mine until the Caravan is full....your mayor(traders guild/whatever) could decide to send multiple caravans to load before returning to the node. You may choose to either select soloable or group harvest when mining in a mine. Group harvest produces a larger portion of the resource and can only be picked up if a Caravan is nearby. When the caravan returns to the node, you are given the portion of resources you harvested, in the local storage. You may use the stored ore for node progression, or for personal use...larger pieces may be broken down into smaller quantities.....metals can be combined into larger pieces using small pieces, if a large enough forge is present in the node. The differences in what players can hold in terms of ore should be significant compared to that of caravans.

    Stone quarry - soloable vs caravan gathering....same deal...mayor(or traders guild/whatever) sets up a quarry...different sizes of stone should be required for different things....larger sizes only being able to be moved using a caravan. You cannot combine smaller stones into a larger stones, but larger stones can be broken down into smaller pieces. Large pieces required for foundations and certain building construction. Harvest time for larger pieces takes time.

    Resource piles - if a Caravan is not yet nearby, a pile of resources should be displayed near where the harvesting is occurring, awaiting to be loaded into the Caravan.

    Same principle applied to Lumber Mills and Lumber Yards.... and any resource that weighs a lot in reality...

    Caravan hijacking is a must - if certain items require caravans to transport, then in order to steal those resources, you would need to hijack the caravan and drive it away yourself.

    How does this prevent resource loss and encourage pvp? Players will be forced to use a common Caravan in these instances, encouraged to protect its goods. As most of these items that use a caravan to ship are unable to be transported without a caravan, then the resources aren't lost as easily unless the caravan is successfully stolen. Especially if harvesting occurs in groups. This encourages group interactions.

    Players harvesting from another nodal point they do not belong to should first require permission to do so, with most of what they harvest being taxed(set by mayor), else be flagged as a combatant, and taking faction penalties with that node.

    The usual smaller nodes are scattered around for soloable harvest.

    I would expect herbalists and alchemists, fishers, to be more solo types.
  • I would say that this is a difficult one, but too not mess with the "risk v reward" setup half the drop once u get killed if ONLY you're mastered in that proffesion. Ofc that may seem unfair for looter, but being an artisan should'nt be extremely punished since they are obvious prey/target and it was mentioned by Steven during a stream that as a crafter you will be rewarded for the hard work. I dont know, many different approaches to this, but I would say that cutting the loss in in half would be a good way to go.
  • If a gatherer is pissed off by a PvP-er who frequently shows up in an area, he can set a trap and get a bounty-hunter ready to take that PvP-er down, when he gets corrupted.

    To increase the chance of revenge, when the player gets corrupted, should pass some essence in a material form to the killed gatherer. That essence could be a resource too, which artisans may use to craft enhanced invisibility buffs usable by bounty-hunters against that particular character. Preferably those should work only when that character is in corrupted state.
    This would ensure that a player who becomes frequently corrupted to eventually be defeated.
    The enhanced invisibility potion should render the character completely invisible against that specific corrupted player and maybe be dispelled only after the 2nd attack.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • JazeriousJazerious Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    I don't know if its been stated since there are too many post for me to read, but I think we should implement a pinging system for non-combatants who gets killed by combatants. If you remain non-combatant and get killed, a message would come up and ask if you want to ping your location and death to players in a certain radius of you. The message would be red and some icon like skull and bones would pop up with it saying, "A player was killed by (insert player(s) name)" with the death location clickable. We shouldn't display the name of the non-combatant to save them against trolls.

    Everyone in the radius should get the message except the combatants just so they never know whether or not they were reported. If non-combatants never feel safe, so to shouldn't combatants.
  • I support the idea of a secret pocket or secret bag where Gatherers can store a certain amount of gatherables.
    Other than that I don't really think they should get any 'automatic' protection at all. An idea I was thinking about is - similar to hire protection for your caravan - you should be able to hire a player (or NPC) to protect you while gathering, especially when it comes to gathering for rare items in very busy spots.
  • Pking all gatheres, farmers, miners, gold farmers non-stop over and over is important for creating a healthy enviroment.

    Without violence there is opression, the players who are just like drone ants will unbalance the game by hoarding more resources than anyone.

    Gathering without the possibility of losing everything you have is the same as cheating.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • EVE Online has a famously brutal PVP loot system. Half of everything on your ship is destroyed and the rest of it can be looted. Gatherers avoid death by scanning their system for nearby players and avoiding any that look dangerous. Do players appear on your mini-map in AoC? Something like that could give gatherers fair warning.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There are plenty of means already for players to gather in relative peace

    - stay aware of your surroundings
    - get a feel for player habits / routines and note wayward players
    - explore the land and gather where there a less players
    - gather with a friend and both look out for each other
    - gather in a group
    - join a guild (if you want their protection and they are not willing to look after you, change guilds)
    - guild getting picked on (make an alliance)
    - don`t want to be at war with a guild (try some diplomacy)
  • Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    Pking all gatheres, farmers, miners, gold farmers non-stop over and over is important for creating a healthy enviroment.

    Without violence there is opression, the players who are just like drone ants will unbalance the game by hoarding more resources than anyone.

    Gathering without the possibility of losing everything you have is the same as cheating.

    Poe’s law is going strong today
  • I believe that maybe a mechanic that allows a player to carry more than their inventory space should allow could be used to over encumber a non-gatherer player. Gatherers then would have a much greater inventory capacity than a pack of PvPers who are going to want to grab and dash. This could balance a group of gatherers who are going out together as a ripe target, but PvPers will want the juiciest goods and run before backup shows up. Grabbing everything they can is not optimal... Unless they have a gatherer of their own to mule things.

    And in turn, gatherers could have their own guards following them. They might want to spread out to get as much as they can, as quickly as they can... Or they might want to stay close fore safety reasons and take things slowly... Which might end up giving PvPers more time to prep.

    Just some thoughts I had.
  • Craiken wrote: »
    EVE Online has a famously brutal PVP loot system. Half of everything on your ship is destroyed and the rest of it can be looted. Gatherers avoid death by scanning their system for nearby players and avoiding any that look dangerous. Do players appear on your mini-map in AoC? Something like that could give gatherers fair warning.

    You an EVE player too? I am!

    AoC caught my eye, but it appears that this game is too carebear friendly, its full of whiners in this community who believe that ganking all farmers is griefing! It is not!

    Griefing is letting them farm the gold non stop and finnance their war efforts unchallenged!!
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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