hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
1- it deters people from being assholes. as i said mainy times, green pve players can grief too
2- if you are being an ass and someone decides to kill you, you will probably think about going purple to have half the chance of dropping your stuff. it also encourages pvp.
3- since going red multiplies your chance to drop by 4, dying becomes huge now. so a 10% chance if you are green becomes 40% if you are red.
4- it adds a risk to dying, pvp or pve. in other games, you die and you are like ok whatever and come back and keep doing what you were doing. if there is a risk, you will think it twice before you try to fuck someone up or do something stupid.
5- tbh there is no point in hunting gatherers. they wont be farmed like people think they will xD they will mostly just be killed by pvp players who also want to gather in the same area. you wont be dying as much as you think. alpha 2 will give intrepid the opportunity to adjust the base % chance to drop items while green.
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
Depraved
1- it deters people from being assholes. as i said mainy times, green pve players can grief too
2- if you are being an ass and someone decides to kill you, you will probably think about going purple to have half the chance of dropping your stuff. it also encourages pvp.
3- since going red multiplies your chance to drop by 4, dying becomes huge now. so a 10% chance if you are green becomes 40% if you are red.
4- it adds a risk to dying, pvp or pve. in other games, you die and you are like ok whatever and come back and keep doing what you were doing. if there is a risk, you will think it twice before you try to fuck someone up or do something stupid.
5- tbh there is no point in hunting gatherers. they wont be farmed like people think they will xD they will mostly just be killed by pvp players who also want to gather in the same area. you wont be dying as much as you think. alpha 2 will give intrepid the opportunity to adjust the base % chance to drop items while green.
[/quote]
1- How? You can kill people and loot their stuff - it is direct encouragement of bad behaviour. if you imply, for example, that if green player ninjaloot something in raid, you can kill him and loot his stuff and this a good thing, you are wrong. If droop chance is low, this mechanic isn't stopping anybody and if chance is high it's frustrating to regular players. Honestly, it's gonna be frustrating even when with a low chance of dropping - people hate, and i mean HATE, backwards progression, it's a main reason why hardcore full loot PVP MMOs have a ridiculously low online
2- You are strait up wrong, if my chance of loosing loot becomes lower if i respond to aggression, its FORCING me to fight back, if i fight back i become a combatant, if i become a combatant, person who kill me don't get a corruption, if person who kill me don't gen a corruption he's not been punished for bad behaviour, if people not being punished for bad behaviour, bad behavior starts being a norm and game dies.
Imagine I'm level 20 gatherer who just wants to chop some wood, suddenly level 35 rouge starts attacking me, what choices do i have? if i not respond to aggression, i risk to loose chunk of my progress, if i respond to aggression i have way lower chance too lose my materials, but this rouge not get a corruption and continue being a ass. Such a wonderful system! (no) Yah... imagine if that chance doesn't exist at all, what a crazy idea.
3- Why it has to be multiplies of somethings? Green dying 0% chance to droop something, red dying 20% chance to droop something. It's that easy.
4- Do something stupid is a main reason why people play games in a first place. If i see a big cool mob in the open who is 5lvls above me, i want to try and kill him. If he is too strong he kills me, but i at least tried. Chance to droop something on death just deletes a curiosity that gives MMO games a huge chunk of their value.
5- Yeah! And this type of PVP can flawlessly exist whiteout frustrating lose of progression in any other game. Why you advocating for the thing that reduce you enjoyment of the game and make the most boring aspect of any MMO (gathering resources) that much more painful and frustrating, i literally don't understand.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
No, it is not frustrating. It is fun
You want a boring game.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
No, it is not frustrating. It is fun
You want a boring game.
It is fun for a winning side, for a loosing side its extremely frustrating, sometimes frustrating enough to quit the game. Just look on any full loot MMO and their pathetic online.
ok, please do not change the system for the carebears, that's what new world did, and it didn't work!
I'm a harvester and a crafter, when i play these type of games i really love the risk factor that comes from harvesting the materials that i need to craft, it's what makes these games fun.
This game is supposed to be a guild game, group up and make friends doing stuff that you all like to enjoy and that's why when harvesting you should always bring a friend or 2 to make it safer and more enjoyable.
I totally enjoyed the New World system, and I would argue that in reference to voluntary flagging or unflagging for PvP it worked great...exactly as they intended it to!
It got an update. ^^
You have no reason not to play it a few years.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
No, it is not frustrating. It is fun
You want a boring game.
It is fun for a winning side, for a loosing side its extremely frustrating, sometimes frustrating enough to quit the game. Just look on any full loot MMO and their pathetic online.
Yes, other MMOs where each gatherer gets an instance of the ore, wood, drop from NPC is boring. You just waste your time doing those mindless activities. Doing dailies and gathering achievements. No risk, no emotions. Only the greedy gatherers who want to have more and more and they feel immense pain when they lose a little bit enjoy those games.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
'Profession Backpacks' (for lack of a better name) that only store resources from professions you are mastered in and don't drop any resources when you are killed. Or perhaps you at least drop even less that normal.
Edit: to clarify I'm only talking about storing loot such as herbs or minerals (nothing else goes in the bag, including resources from professions you aren't mastered in), you can still drop other things you are carrying when you die. I'm not sure how the backpack system works in AoC but I was thinking of WoW where you collect multiple backpacks.
To help stimulate the economy but also not screw over both PvP and Gatherers, I would make these consumable upon death. So you can store whatever rarity of resources the tier of Profession Backpack you have allots, and then whenever you do get PK’d those resources are sent to your settlements bank and all other resources are lost to whomever PK’d you.
Making these consumable would mean that crafters would be able to sell them at lower cost as it’s not a permanent boon for the harvester, and I would think five-ten slots for an average tier bag. Idk how big stacks will be but if we assume stacks of 100 for standard resources, I would think being able to safely gather 500-1000 of a resource without fear of loss would be adequate.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
This is actually incorrect. You only have a chance to drop gear if you are killed while you are corrupted. If you are killed as a non-combatant, you are hit with the normal penalty, with a guarantee of dropping the set percentage of gatherables/processed goods.
Experience debt (negative experience).[66]
Skill and stat dampening.[13]
Lower health and mana.[13]
Lower gear proficiency.[13]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[67]
Durability loss.[68][69][13] Dropping a percentage of carried gatherables and processed goods.[64][13]
If you are killed as a combatant(purple) you suffer these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.
If you die as a corrupted player, you suffer penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and have a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on your current corruption score. This includes
dropping weapons and gear. Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained. The higher the corruption score, the higher chance of dropping of carried raw materials and gear (Weapons and Armor) when the corrupted player dies.
Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Another suggestion is maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm just used to different game styles. What ever happened to like "zoned PvP"? I want to PvP so I go into the PvP zone and capture points or run around and gank other people who have entered the zone? I'm thinking of Dark Age of Camelot in this example but there have been other games that have done this well. Or World of Warcraft (Yep, I said it) where you have to join a battle in order to PvP?
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
The CURRENT and PROPOSED system doesn't work like this though.
You just drop 50% of everything you gathered. Mob or not.
So if you for some reason gathered for 4 hours and got 10,000 herbs you will drop 5000 herbs.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
No, it is not frustrating. It is fun
You want a boring game.
It is fun for a winning side, for a loosing side its extremely frustrating, sometimes frustrating enough to quit the game. Just look on any full loot MMO and their pathetic online.
Yes, other MMOs where each gatherer gets an instance of the ore, wood, drop from NPC is boring. You just waste your time doing those mindless activities. Doing dailies and gathering achievements. No risk, no emotions. Only the greedy gatherers who want to have more and more and they feel immense pain when they lose a little bit enjoy those games.
Well, if the fruits of your labors that you have accumulated over several hours suddenly goes to ashes because some gay decided to have fun doesn't bother you, i'm honestly impressed. But most people respect their time and not depressed enough to ignore that.
What does not bother me is seeing other players having more than I have.
I do not need to be the strongest and richest on the server.
I will have as much as I can get and deserve based on my skills and risk I can handle.
And the process of going and getting what I can brings me fun. So I can have fun continuously.
If the game offers no danger and the drops are safe and guaranteed, then the only satisfaction I could have is the illusion of being... what? Being able to do quests and tasks? That is a test of patience and I do not need to spend time to complete it.
By the way, this is a typical view of solo players. When working in team, things change. Each has a role and if some players have no patience to gather, they might be fit to protect.
But then, this again works if the gatherer is not that greedy and is willing to share with the other team members.
The greedy ones would argue that they "pay for protection".
Of course the same can happen with caravans. If those who can defend them see players trying to transport goods by themselves, the protectors might become bandits.
@MixaZavr it is the process not the purpose which is important. If you play for a goal, not being able to reach it will of course ruin your fun. But if the goal is to be with other players, part of an ecosystem, then you reach the goal as soon as you start playing.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
Depraved
1- it deters people from being assholes. as i said mainy times, green pve players can grief too
2- if you are being an ass and someone decides to kill you, you will probably think about going purple to have half the chance of dropping your stuff. it also encourages pvp.
3- since going red multiplies your chance to drop by 4, dying becomes huge now. so a 10% chance if you are green becomes 40% if you are red.
4- it adds a risk to dying, pvp or pve. in other games, you die and you are like ok whatever and come back and keep doing what you were doing. if there is a risk, you will think it twice before you try to fuck someone up or do something stupid.
5- tbh there is no point in hunting gatherers. they wont be farmed like people think they will xD they will mostly just be killed by pvp players who also want to gather in the same area. you wont be dying as much as you think. alpha 2 will give intrepid the opportunity to adjust the base % chance to drop items while green.
1- How? You can kill people and loot their stuff - it is direct encouragement of bad behaviour. if you imply, for example, that if green player ninjaloot something in raid, you can kill him and loot his stuff and this a good thing, you are wrong. If droop chance is low, this mechanic isn't stopping anybody and if chance is high it's frustrating to regular players. Honestly, it's gonna be frustrating even when with a low chance of dropping - people hate, and i mean HATE, backwards progression, it's a main reason why hardcore full loot PVP MMOs have a ridiculously low online
2- You are strait up wrong, if my chance of loosing loot becomes lower if i respond to aggression, its FORCING me to fight back, if i fight back i become a combatant, if i become a combatant, person who kill me don't get a corruption, if person who kill me don't gen a corruption he's not been punished for bad behaviour, if people not being punished for bad behaviour, bad behavior starts being a norm and game dies.
Imagine I'm level 20 gatherer who just wants to chop some wood, suddenly level 35 rouge starts attacking me, what choices do i have? if i not respond to aggression, i risk to loose chunk of my progress, if i respond to aggression i have way lower chance too lose my materials, but this rouge not get a corruption and continue being a ass. Such a wonderful system! (no) Yah... imagine if that chance doesn't exist at all, what a crazy idea.
3- Why it has to be multiplies of somethings? Green dying 0% chance to droop something, red dying 20% chance to droop something. It's that easy.
4- Do something stupid is a main reason why people play games in a first place. If i see a big cool mob in the open who is 5lvls above me, i want to try and kill him. If he is too strong he kills me, but i at least tried. Chance to droop something on death just deletes a curiosity that gives MMO games a huge chunk of their value.
5- Yeah! And this type of PVP can flawlessly exist whiteout frustrating lose of progression in any other game. Why you advocating for the thing that reduce you enjoyment of the game and make the most boring aspect of any MMO (gathering resources) that much more painful and frustrating, i literally don't understand.[/quote]
1- there are severe punishments though. you can only drop raw and processed materials, not finished items. and do you really think someone will be stupid enough that, if you are all doing a raid with random people and you get a rare material drop, you will be killed by some guy while you are green? do you know what will happen to him? he will go red and die instantly 2 seconds later and drop his gear plus the raw and processed materials. no one wants to risk that for a chance of getting the item that you just got, he probably wont even be able to get close to your corpse and loot you lmao
2- you can play with your freinds and deter gankers. you could also have some awareness and run away from someone who will try to attack you before they do. you could fight back too... what if someone tries to mob drop you? they will think it twice because you could stun them and have the mobs kill him and he has a higher chance to dropping items while green. the system works in your favor if you know how to use it.
also, if you are level 20 and a level 35 kills you in a level 20 zone, they have to be really stupid. they will never be able to cleanse the massive amounts of corruption he will get for killing a lowbie by killing low level mobs, and there will be people attacking him. his stats will dampen and he wont be able to fight back. he will probably have to delete his character lmao. do you think someone is gonna do that over a few herbs?
3- because it removes the risk. the game philosophy is risk vs reward. why do you get to have a 0 risk activity and other people dont? 0 risk means green players will be able to grief with no consequence.
4- or you can try and kill him, then run away when you realize you cant, before you die.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
This is actually incorrect. You only have a chance to drop gear if you are killed while you are corrupted. If you are killed as a non-combatant, you are hit with the normal penalty, with a guarantee of dropping the set percentage of gatherables/processed goods.
Experience debt (negative experience).[66]
Skill and stat dampening.[13]
Lower health and mana.[13]
Lower gear proficiency.[13]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[67]
Durability loss.[68][69][13] Dropping a percentage of carried gatherables and processed goods.[64][13]
If you are killed as a combatant(purple) you suffer these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.
If you die as a corrupted player, you suffer penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and have a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on your current corruption score. This includes
dropping weapons and gear. Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained. The higher the corruption score, the higher chance of dropping of carried raw materials and gear (Weapons and Armor) when the corrupted player dies.
Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.
i never said you can drop gear if you die as a green or purple player. i said you can drop items. herbs count as items. raw and processed materials are items too, not just your sword and helmet.
Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm just used to different game styles. What ever happened to like "zoned PvP"? I want to PvP so I go into the PvP zone and capture points or run around and gank other people who have entered the zone? I'm thinking of Dark Age of Camelot in this example but there have been other games that have done this well. Or World of Warcraft (Yep, I said it) where you have to join a battle in order to PvP?
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
The CURRENT and PROPOSED system doesn't work like this though.
You just drop 50% of everything you gathered. Mob or not.
So if you for some reason gathered for 4 hours and got 10,000 herbs you will drop 5000 herbs.
Just making sure it's clear.
wait, where does it say its 50% of your stuff? if it was 50% as green, then that means you would have a 50 x 4 = 200% chance to drop items as a corrupted player? O_O like if you have 10,000 herbs you gonna drop 20,000? you gonna be in herbs debt? next 10,000 herbs you pick will dissapear?
where does it say its 50% T_T
also, even if it was 50%, that number will be adjusted during alpha 2
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
1. You keep saying "slight inventory loot drop" but almost exactly after throw in some crazy number like 30-50%. When loose of 50% of your shit is start to consider "slight"? Maybe if you are aoe farming some mobs with high rate droop of low value loot it's not a big deal. But if you spend like 8-10 hours farming some fat and high damage mob with a 10% drop chance of the shit you want, and then some 2-5 dudes shows up and just kill you with no chance for you to protect yourself and steal 5 hours of you life is a BIG deal. For very large numbers of people it is a "drop this shit game'' moment.
2. Yes, i can argue "they aren't mmos'' and i right - they aren't. MMO is a very specific, and VERY time consuming genre, average gamer plays games around 8 hours.... PER WEEK. AoC time investment is 5 hours PER DAY for 35 days to rich max lvl. You really think everybody just gonna drop they action pact 1 hour in Hunt:Showdown or in any other game to farm like 1/175 of a way to endgame content? If so you are naive.
3.It's not and any way shape or form tiny. It's a very big deal to 95% of the gaming population, and big deal for like 80% of MMO players.
4 But tbh, this issue is may be not so big of a deal in AoC or be a very big issue, i just speculate. But it's definitely a not good thing, how bad it gets in AoC is mystery, but it is bad.
5. "'There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed'' - i think there should be no reason why an individual has to loose his time because some dude decided to kill him. it's a game, not a job or real life, games are supposed to be fun.
But ok, lets say i wrong and lose yours loot on dead it's good thing for the game. i have a two questions to you:
1. What you think about this suggestion - maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
2. What you think about losing you EXP on dead? Because i personally think this is the worst shit in history of mankind, if you think that is good to, we are will be unable to find common ground until heat death of the universe.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
1. You keep saying "slight inventory loot drop" but almost exactly after throw in some crazy number like 30-50%. When loose of 50% of your shit is start to consider "slight"? Maybe if you are aoe farming some mobs with high rate droop of low value loot it's not a big deal. But if you spend like 8-10 hours farming some fat and high damage mob with a 10% drop chance of the shit you want, and then some 2-5 dudes shows up and just kill you with no chance for you to protect yourself and steal 5 hours of you life is a BIG deal. For very large numbers of people it is a "drop this shit game'' moment.
2. Yes, i can argue "they aren't mmos'' and i right - they aren't. MMO is a very specific, and VERY time consuming genre, average gamer plays games around 8 hours.... PER WEEK. AoC time investment is 5 hours PER DAY for 35 days to rich max lvl. You really think everybody just gonna drop they action pact 1 hour in Hunt:Showdown or in any other game to farm like 1/175 of a way to endgame content? If so you are naive.
3.It's not and any way shape or form tiny. It's a very big deal to 95% of the gaming population, and big deal for like 80% of MMO players.
4 But tbh, this issue is may be not so big of a deal in AoC or be a very big issue, i just speculate. But it's definitely a not good thing, how bad it gets in AoC is mystery, but it is bad.
5. "'There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed'' - i think there should be no reason why an individual has to loose his time because some dude decided to kill him. it's a game, not a job or real life, games are supposed to be fun.
But ok, lets say i wrong and lose yours loot on dead it's good thing for the game. i have a two questions to you:
1. What you think about this suggestion - maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
2. What you think about losing you EXP on dead? Because i personally think this is the worst shit in history of mankind, if you think that is good to, we are will be unable to find common ground until heat death of the universe.
just group up, jesus, its not that hard.
you also keep looking at only one side. you are only concerned about how you were farming for several horus then someone kills you, because thats what is inconvenient to you. you arent seeing the system as a whole and also all the benefits of it.
you wont get pked that often, unless you constantly try to go to a locked down area.
where did you see that? it only says you have a chance to drop stuff on the wiki, but it doesnt show any number, only that is half for purple and 4 times higher for red
also, 100% to drop 50% doesnt make sense. that means 400% chance to drop 50% items or 100% chance to drop 200% chance when you are red? unless the 4 times higher when you are red is referring to the other death penalties, and not the drop chance
where did you see that? it only says you have a chance to drop stuff on the wiki, but it doesnt show any number, only that is half for purple and 4 times higher for red
also, 100% to drop 50% doesnt make sense. that means 400% chance to drop 50% items or 100% chance to drop 200% chance when you are red? unless the 4 times higher when you are red is referring to the other death penalties, and not the drop chance
Other death penalties, yes.
You can't drop gear if you aren't red. But you gain the chance to drop gear when Red, which is separate from all of that. That's why the thread is about gatherers.
100% chance to drop 50% of Gatherables and Processed Goods, at this time.
This doesn't change when Red, that we KNOW OF, that's separate, an entirely different system for 'Do you drop gear?' is applied then.
Maybe have two type of resources, one being only gathered while in non PVP mode. example general gear and potions and another that's only gatherable when you are in PVP mode.
For example crafting mats for siege equipment or PVP potions
PvP specific loot created from PvP specific gathering? PvE specific loot created from PvE specific gathering?
yes, so you would only lose mats that help in PVP so the other side would want to target them to help there side.
would also make the solo players and or non pvp player be left alone.
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
1. You keep saying "slight inventory loot drop" but almost exactly after throw in some crazy number like 30-50%. When loose of 50% of your shit is start to consider "slight"? Maybe if you are aoe farming some mobs with high rate droop of low value loot it's not a big deal. But if you spend like 8-10 hours farming some fat and high damage mob with a 10% drop chance of the shit you want, and then some 2-5 dudes shows up and just kill you with no chance for you to protect yourself and steal 5 hours of you life is a BIG deal. For very large numbers of people it is a "drop this shit game'' moment.
2. Yes, i can argue "they aren't mmos'' and i right - they aren't. MMO is a very specific, and VERY time consuming genre, average gamer plays games around 8 hours.... PER WEEK. AoC time investment is 5 hours PER DAY for 35 days to rich max lvl. You really think everybody just gonna drop they action pact 1 hour in Hunt:Showdown or in any other game to farm like 1/175 of a way to endgame content? If so you are naive.
3.It's not and any way shape or form tiny. It's a very big deal to 95% of the gaming population, and big deal for like 80% of MMO players.
4 But tbh, this issue is may be not so big of a deal in AoC or be a very big issue, i just speculate. But it's definitely a not good thing, how bad it gets in AoC is mystery, but it is bad.
5. "'There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed'' - i think there should be no reason why an individual has to loose his time because some dude decided to kill him. it's a game, not a job or real life, games are supposed to be fun.
But ok, lets say i wrong and lose yours loot on dead it's good thing for the game. i have a two questions to you:
1. What you think about this suggestion - maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
2. What you think about losing you EXP on dead? Because i personally think this is the worst shit in history of mankind, if you think that is good to, we are will be unable to find common ground until heat death of the universe.
Just going to answer your 2 questions:
1. It’s not a terrible idea but like I said before test our current system and then build off of it…Maybe more loot drop maybe less…maybe it’s a safe 30 minutes. So you can closer to safety, anything is possible and could work when tested.
2. This is hit or miss for me and I’ll tell you why. Losing EXP and stat dampening are two different things. If we look at loss of EXP for reds I think that makes sense and discourages crazy griefing. But I also think slight loss of exp for everyone else isn’t terrible. My thought process is we want people to try to work together and achieve as a group, it’s an MMO for a reason, I think if someone blindly runs into a mob for hours and hours to get lucky once just doesn’t make sense. It’s better incentivize group play to make the game feel alive.
2A. Back to stat dampening, I personally think even if we don’t do EXP loss we should do a death stat dampening. So that people cannot come back into a fight over and over again with no penalty. For example your 1v 2ing and you kill one and now it’s a fair 1 v 1 but the first guy you killed runs all the way back full HP and kills you…that shit is tilting and imo super shitty/low skill. So I guess to round out your question, I think exp loss for reds and slightly for purple/green isn’t the end of the world but stat dampening on death (only for a certain duration 10 min maybe) I think rewards fair fights.
It got an update. ^^
You have no reason not to play it a few years.
Maybe? However, I think I'm going to play Ashes whenever it comes out, and walk around harvesting bullshit. Then, when I'm ganked, the ganker will just get a big pile of crap
but then, there is no risk for the gatherer...it goes against the design philosophy.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
but then, there is no risk for the gatherer...it goes against the design philosophy.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
so everytime you arent flagged for pvp, theres 0 risk for you, only rewards.
but then, there is no risk for the gatherer...it goes against the design philosophy.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
so everytime you arent flagged for pvp, theres 0 risk for you, only rewards.
fyi i suck at explaining..
so if you are flagged for PVP you can get special Mat eg ones that help only in PVP.
if you arent flagged for PVP youy cant gather those mats and you can only get mats that are basic or have little to no help in PVP crafting.
maybe go as far as if you have gathered PVP mats you cant un-toggle yourself from PVP mode til you use it for crafting or put in bank.
so attacking a non PVP player wont be worth as much in collecting mats then a PVP player.
also the whole different amount of mats that can be taken if you are in PVP mode or not.
Comments
1- it deters people from being assholes. as i said mainy times, green pve players can grief too
2- if you are being an ass and someone decides to kill you, you will probably think about going purple to have half the chance of dropping your stuff. it also encourages pvp.
3- since going red multiplies your chance to drop by 4, dying becomes huge now. so a 10% chance if you are green becomes 40% if you are red.
4- it adds a risk to dying, pvp or pve. in other games, you die and you are like ok whatever and come back and keep doing what you were doing. if there is a risk, you will think it twice before you try to fuck someone up or do something stupid.
5- tbh there is no point in hunting gatherers. they wont be farmed like people think they will xD they will mostly just be killed by pvp players who also want to gather in the same area. you wont be dying as much as you think. alpha 2 will give intrepid the opportunity to adjust the base % chance to drop items while green.
1- How? You can kill people and loot their stuff - it is direct encouragement of bad behaviour. if you imply, for example, that if green player ninjaloot something in raid, you can kill him and loot his stuff and this a good thing, you are wrong. If droop chance is low, this mechanic isn't stopping anybody and if chance is high it's frustrating to regular players. Honestly, it's gonna be frustrating even when with a low chance of dropping - people hate, and i mean HATE, backwards progression, it's a main reason why hardcore full loot PVP MMOs have a ridiculously low online
2- You are strait up wrong, if my chance of loosing loot becomes lower if i respond to aggression, its FORCING me to fight back, if i fight back i become a combatant, if i become a combatant, person who kill me don't get a corruption, if person who kill me don't gen a corruption he's not been punished for bad behaviour, if people not being punished for bad behaviour, bad behavior starts being a norm and game dies.
Imagine I'm level 20 gatherer who just wants to chop some wood, suddenly level 35 rouge starts attacking me, what choices do i have? if i not respond to aggression, i risk to loose chunk of my progress, if i respond to aggression i have way lower chance too lose my materials, but this rouge not get a corruption and continue being a ass. Such a wonderful system! (no) Yah... imagine if that chance doesn't exist at all, what a crazy idea.
3- Why it has to be multiplies of somethings? Green dying 0% chance to droop something, red dying 20% chance to droop something. It's that easy.
4- Do something stupid is a main reason why people play games in a first place. If i see a big cool mob in the open who is 5lvls above me, i want to try and kill him. If he is too strong he kills me, but i at least tried. Chance to droop something on death just deletes a curiosity that gives MMO games a huge chunk of their value.
5- Yeah! And this type of PVP can flawlessly exist whiteout frustrating lose of progression in any other game. Why you advocating for the thing that reduce you enjoyment of the game and make the most boring aspect of any MMO (gathering resources) that much more painful and frustrating, i literally don't understand.
No, it is not frustrating. It is fun
You want a boring game.
It is fun for a winning side, for a loosing side its extremely frustrating, sometimes frustrating enough to quit the game. Just look on any full loot MMO and their pathetic online.
It got an update. ^^
You have no reason not to play it a few years.
Yes, other MMOs where each gatherer gets an instance of the ore, wood, drop from NPC is boring. You just waste your time doing those mindless activities. Doing dailies and gathering achievements. No risk, no emotions. Only the greedy gatherers who want to have more and more and they feel immense pain when they lose a little bit enjoy those games.
To help stimulate the economy but also not screw over both PvP and Gatherers, I would make these consumable upon death. So you can store whatever rarity of resources the tier of Profession Backpack you have allots, and then whenever you do get PK’d those resources are sent to your settlements bank and all other resources are lost to whomever PK’d you.
Making these consumable would mean that crafters would be able to sell them at lower cost as it’s not a permanent boon for the harvester, and I would think five-ten slots for an average tier bag. Idk how big stacks will be but if we assume stacks of 100 for standard resources, I would think being able to safely gather 500-1000 of a resource without fear of loss would be adequate.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
This is actually incorrect. You only have a chance to drop gear if you are killed while you are corrupted. If you are killed as a non-combatant, you are hit with the normal penalty, with a guarantee of dropping the set percentage of gatherables/processed goods.
Experience debt (negative experience).[66]
Skill and stat dampening.[13]
Lower health and mana.[13]
Lower gear proficiency.[13]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[67]
Durability loss.[68][69][13]
Dropping a percentage of carried gatherables and processed goods.[64][13]
If you are killed as a combatant(purple) you suffer these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.
If you die as a corrupted player, you suffer penalties at four times the rate of a non-combatant, and have a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on your current corruption score. This includes
dropping weapons and gear. Corruption penalties occur as the corruption is gained. The higher the corruption score, the higher chance of dropping of carried raw materials and gear (Weapons and Armor) when the corrupted player dies.
Players do not lose gold upon death, no matter their corruption level.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
The CURRENT and PROPOSED system doesn't work like this though.
You just drop 50% of everything you gathered. Mob or not.
So if you for some reason gathered for 4 hours and got 10,000 herbs you will drop 5000 herbs.
Just making sure it's clear.
What does not bother me is seeing other players having more than I have.
I do not need to be the strongest and richest on the server.
I will have as much as I can get and deserve based on my skills and risk I can handle.
And the process of going and getting what I can brings me fun. So I can have fun continuously.
If the game offers no danger and the drops are safe and guaranteed, then the only satisfaction I could have is the illusion of being... what? Being able to do quests and tasks? That is a test of patience and I do not need to spend time to complete it.
By the way, this is a typical view of solo players. When working in team, things change. Each has a role and if some players have no patience to gather, they might be fit to protect.
But then, this again works if the gatherer is not that greedy and is willing to share with the other team members.
The greedy ones would argue that they "pay for protection".
Of course the same can happen with caravans. If those who can defend them see players trying to transport goods by themselves, the protectors might become bandits.
@MixaZavr it is the process not the purpose which is important. If you play for a goal, not being able to reach it will of course ruin your fun. But if the goal is to be with other players, part of an ecosystem, then you reach the goal as soon as you start playing.
1- How? You can kill people and loot their stuff - it is direct encouragement of bad behaviour. if you imply, for example, that if green player ninjaloot something in raid, you can kill him and loot his stuff and this a good thing, you are wrong. If droop chance is low, this mechanic isn't stopping anybody and if chance is high it's frustrating to regular players. Honestly, it's gonna be frustrating even when with a low chance of dropping - people hate, and i mean HATE, backwards progression, it's a main reason why hardcore full loot PVP MMOs have a ridiculously low online
2- You are strait up wrong, if my chance of loosing loot becomes lower if i respond to aggression, its FORCING me to fight back, if i fight back i become a combatant, if i become a combatant, person who kill me don't get a corruption, if person who kill me don't gen a corruption he's not been punished for bad behaviour, if people not being punished for bad behaviour, bad behavior starts being a norm and game dies.
Imagine I'm level 20 gatherer who just wants to chop some wood, suddenly level 35 rouge starts attacking me, what choices do i have? if i not respond to aggression, i risk to loose chunk of my progress, if i respond to aggression i have way lower chance too lose my materials, but this rouge not get a corruption and continue being a ass. Such a wonderful system! (no) Yah... imagine if that chance doesn't exist at all, what a crazy idea.
3- Why it has to be multiplies of somethings? Green dying 0% chance to droop something, red dying 20% chance to droop something. It's that easy.
4- Do something stupid is a main reason why people play games in a first place. If i see a big cool mob in the open who is 5lvls above me, i want to try and kill him. If he is too strong he kills me, but i at least tried. Chance to droop something on death just deletes a curiosity that gives MMO games a huge chunk of their value.
5- Yeah! And this type of PVP can flawlessly exist whiteout frustrating lose of progression in any other game. Why you advocating for the thing that reduce you enjoyment of the game and make the most boring aspect of any MMO (gathering resources) that much more painful and frustrating, i literally don't understand.[/quote]
1- there are severe punishments though. you can only drop raw and processed materials, not finished items. and do you really think someone will be stupid enough that, if you are all doing a raid with random people and you get a rare material drop, you will be killed by some guy while you are green? do you know what will happen to him? he will go red and die instantly 2 seconds later and drop his gear plus the raw and processed materials. no one wants to risk that for a chance of getting the item that you just got, he probably wont even be able to get close to your corpse and loot you lmao
2- you can play with your freinds and deter gankers. you could also have some awareness and run away from someone who will try to attack you before they do. you could fight back too... what if someone tries to mob drop you? they will think it twice because you could stun them and have the mobs kill him and he has a higher chance to dropping items while green. the system works in your favor if you know how to use it.
also, if you are level 20 and a level 35 kills you in a level 20 zone, they have to be really stupid. they will never be able to cleanse the massive amounts of corruption he will get for killing a lowbie by killing low level mobs, and there will be people attacking him. his stats will dampen and he wont be able to fight back. he will probably have to delete his character lmao. do you think someone is gonna do that over a few herbs?
3- because it removes the risk. the game philosophy is risk vs reward. why do you get to have a 0 risk activity and other people dont? 0 risk means green players will be able to grief with no consequence.
4- or you can try and kill him, then run away when you realize you cant, before you die.
5- enjoyment is sbjective.
i never said you can drop gear if you die as a green or purple player. i said you can drop items. herbs count as items. raw and processed materials are items too, not just your sword and helmet.
wait, where does it say its 50% of your stuff? if it was 50% as green, then that means you would have a 50 x 4 = 200% chance to drop items as a corrupted player? O_O like if you have 10,000 herbs you gonna drop 20,000? you gonna be in herbs debt? next 10,000 herbs you pick will dissapear?
where does it say its 50% T_T
also, even if it was 50%, that number will be adjusted during alpha 2
1. You keep saying "slight inventory loot drop" but almost exactly after throw in some crazy number like 30-50%. When loose of 50% of your shit is start to consider "slight"? Maybe if you are aoe farming some mobs with high rate droop of low value loot it's not a big deal. But if you spend like 8-10 hours farming some fat and high damage mob with a 10% drop chance of the shit you want, and then some 2-5 dudes shows up and just kill you with no chance for you to protect yourself and steal 5 hours of you life is a BIG deal. For very large numbers of people it is a "drop this shit game'' moment.
2. Yes, i can argue "they aren't mmos'' and i right - they aren't. MMO is a very specific, and VERY time consuming genre, average gamer plays games around 8 hours.... PER WEEK. AoC time investment is 5 hours PER DAY for 35 days to rich max lvl. You really think everybody just gonna drop they action pact 1 hour in Hunt:Showdown or in any other game to farm like 1/175 of a way to endgame content? If so you are naive.
3.It's not and any way shape or form tiny. It's a very big deal to 95% of the gaming population, and big deal for like 80% of MMO players.
4 But tbh, this issue is may be not so big of a deal in AoC or be a very big issue, i just speculate. But it's definitely a not good thing, how bad it gets in AoC is mystery, but it is bad.
5. "'There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed'' - i think there should be no reason why an individual has to loose his time because some dude decided to kill him. it's a game, not a job or real life, games are supposed to be fun.
But ok, lets say i wrong and lose yours loot on dead it's good thing for the game. i have a two questions to you:
1. What you think about this suggestion - maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
2. What you think about losing you EXP on dead? Because i personally think this is the worst shit in history of mankind, if you think that is good to, we are will be unable to find common ground until heat death of the universe.
just group up, jesus, its not that hard.
you also keep looking at only one side. you are only concerned about how you were farming for several horus then someone kills you, because thats what is inconvenient to you. you arent seeing the system as a whole and also all the benefits of it.
you wont get pked that often, unless you constantly try to go to a locked down area.
It's not 50% CHANCE to drop some stuff.
It's 100% Chance to drop 50% of your stuff.
where did you see that? it only says you have a chance to drop stuff on the wiki, but it doesnt show any number, only that is half for purple and 4 times higher for red
also, 100% to drop 50% doesnt make sense. that means 400% chance to drop 50% items or 100% chance to drop 200% chance when you are red? unless the 4 times higher when you are red is referring to the other death penalties, and not the drop chance
Other death penalties, yes.
You can't drop gear if you aren't red. But you gain the chance to drop gear when Red, which is separate from all of that. That's why the thread is about gatherers.
100% chance to drop 50% of Gatherables and Processed Goods, at this time.
This doesn't change when Red, that we KNOW OF, that's separate, an entirely different system for 'Do you drop gear?' is applied then.
yes, so you would only lose mats that help in PVP so the other side would want to target them to help there side.
would also make the solo players and or non pvp player be left alone.
Just going to answer your 2 questions:
1. It’s not a terrible idea but like I said before test our current system and then build off of it…Maybe more loot drop maybe less…maybe it’s a safe 30 minutes. So you can closer to safety, anything is possible and could work when tested.
2. This is hit or miss for me and I’ll tell you why. Losing EXP and stat dampening are two different things. If we look at loss of EXP for reds I think that makes sense and discourages crazy griefing. But I also think slight loss of exp for everyone else isn’t terrible. My thought process is we want people to try to work together and achieve as a group, it’s an MMO for a reason, I think if someone blindly runs into a mob for hours and hours to get lucky once just doesn’t make sense. It’s better incentivize group play to make the game feel alive.
2A. Back to stat dampening, I personally think even if we don’t do EXP loss we should do a death stat dampening. So that people cannot come back into a fight over and over again with no penalty. For example your 1v 2ing and you kill one and now it’s a fair 1 v 1 but the first guy you killed runs all the way back full HP and kills you…that shit is tilting and imo super shitty/low skill. So I guess to round out your question, I think exp loss for reds and slightly for purple/green isn’t the end of the world but stat dampening on death (only for a certain duration 10 min maybe) I think rewards fair fights.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
so everytime you arent flagged for pvp, theres 0 risk for you, only rewards.
fyi i suck at explaining..
so if you are flagged for PVP you can get special Mat eg ones that help only in PVP.
if you arent flagged for PVP youy cant gather those mats and you can only get mats that are basic or have little to no help in PVP crafting.
maybe go as far as if you have gathered PVP mats you cant un-toggle yourself from PVP mode til you use it for crafting or put in bank.
so attacking a non PVP player wont be worth as much in collecting mats then a PVP player.
also the whole different amount of mats that can be taken if you are in PVP mode or not.
.....
also, we would lose all the advantages of the open world pvp system. also the corruption system is pointless then...