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Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
That's why we need to stay vocal on here and not let them change the system. This game clearly won't be as brutal as Eve, Ark, or Rust.
But if we can at least take some farmed material and stop players from "free farming" with no risk will actually have a proper game economy *cough New World cough*.
As many have said we need the risk vs reward. But we need processors and crafters have to risk vs reward as well. Either a chance to fail the crafting or fail the processing. 10% failure rate and the higher your proficiency the less the chance. (same chance it will fail as the chance someone will PK you).
** Do not include completed items like weapons armor etc can permanently break or be lotted** This will make many many players not want to play or quit playing. However, if the item is on the caravan that is a different story and that is a free game.
Ideas/Tools to Limit Risk:
- Do not include gear that helps you gather. If I am wearing gathering gear I will most likely lose a PVP battle when someone is going to try and PK me.
- Fighting back reduces loot drop chance or quantity. If someone is trying to PK me and I fight back then I drop less lot.
- Religion or Node Blessing: Either if you pray or have some bonus achieved then for a limited time 1hr you cant drop loot or you drop less loot for a limited time.
- Hire Protectors. Either be part of a guild or hire mercenaries/adventures to protect you on your gathering missions if you don't want to be part of a guild.
Once it drops you still have to walk back to the spot it dropped....but the area could still be lurking with the people that killed you.
After mulling on this for some time further, with regards to risk vs rewards, I think the most significant thing to note is that attackers are not there just to be a risk to gatherers. They are a part of the whole risk-reward scheme too.
And I think that the potentially biggest difference between a gatherer and an attacker here lies in time spent.
And from that perspective you will have a balanced system when the amount of time an attacker needs to spend to find, kill their target, loot and get rid corruption is roughly equal to the amount of time the gatherer had to spend to get the amount of materials dropped and looted.
I say roughly, because with corrupted risk of dropping gear there is a random/luck variable to it.
This does tie in with the green/purple as well. If they fight back, you get less, but you dont have to spend time to get rid of corruption.
With the difference between dying as a purple/green being 25% of the total materials carried, we can conclude that the effort required to get rid of your corruption needs to be somewhat equal to the effort spent in gathering that amount of loot.
So if you spent 1 hour gathering, it should take 15 minutes of active effort to find, kill and loot you. If you spent 3 hours, it should take 45 minutes. How to actually tweak/control this? I dont know.
If they dont fight back, you get another chunk of loot, but have to deal with corruption. Getting rid of corruption for loot from 1 hours gathering should also be 15 minutes of active effort. And for 3 hours, 45 minutes. Or equivalent effort in risk...
The Point
With this in mind, I cant help but feel that the total market value of things lost and looted should somehow affect corruption. Less corruption if you dont bother taking the stuff, and if someone else loots it instead(if they can?) they get that corruption instead.
Disclaimer:
With this I am clearly treating the loot as the ingame reasoning for attacking. I'm not really going to consider "for fun" a valid ingame reason to do so, since the potential toxicity from that being too common is far too high. The game should ideally provide enough ingame reasons to get into a fight with people that you shouldnt need "for fun" to get by.
I don't like this idea. I think the proposed drop of gathered materials should be implemented. I don't think just killing the gatherer is a good enough reward for a successful PvPer.
That said, I think a gatherer would either be better off working in packs or hiring a PvP dedicated guard. I come from ESO so I am familiar with ball groups. If you want to solo as a gatherer, that is high risk and it might be sub-optimal. A rogue class gathering might be able to gather stealthily?
I also love the idea of some gathering tools being dual purposed. A pickaxe for example is potentially slow, but can rip through armor like the 'beak' of a war hammer. But they are also heavy like a felling axe. Weapons of war are slimmed down for the sake of being able to swing them faster.
So maybe PvPers could do the opposite of what ESO does, where they are sustain rather than burst? Or break away from that formula entirely and sustained and burst damage is all dependent on class & skills. Still, I like the idea of using your gathering tools as impromptu weapons. Sickles could cause bleeding damage, but have an actual battle\war variant. Scythes are very sub optimal for fighting until you straighten it into a war-scythe like the Polish did... Those were very effective slashy stabby weapons! ^.^
I would give gathering tools such as axes, hammers, and picks a much slower swing time, but a higher damage output or just have them ignore a certain % of armor. They are sub-optimal, but if you successfully get hit by one you are going to be in a world of hurting.
The next thing is skills for gatherers. Perhaps weapon and class skills and how they could be applied between a dedicated crafter\gatherer\artisan versus a dedicated PvPer.
So where does this leave the PvP versus Gatherer? Player skill. A gatherer could potentially be better at fighting other players than someone who just started to dedicate themselves to PvP. Of course, a dedicated PvPer could body a newbie gatherer. I am not proposing putting the two either on equal footing or nerf\buff one over the other. I propose they be given different fighting styles. And hey maybe PvPers and PvEers could intentionally could spec into specific gatherer skills specifically because they have desirable attack skills that combat skills do not.
Just my 2 cents.
Perhaps higher level gatherers could automatically teleport some resources to the bank as they gather? That way, the amount you can gather increases with level, and a portion of that lot is permanently stored. The rest that you have to carry with you is up for grabs.
Or could it be as simple as putting systems in place that encourage a sort of 'factory line' approach with friends? If one player gathers and there are a couple of messenger friends to pass on to, the gatherer can gather and pass resources down the line all the way to the bank, so they don't have to do both the gathering and the transporting. In a similar teamwork-oriented fashion, perhaps tanks could have a skill that protects allies while they are skilling.
You don't lose gear as a Combatant/greenie. Its only when you attack and kill a Green and gain corruption that gear loss becomes possible.
All they've ever lost is a percentage of resources.
So basicly anyone who loots a killed player must become Corrupted including the killed player if he wants his lost stuff back.
This.
I am autistic and practically unable to deal with unexpected situations requiring split-second decisions and high manual dexterity. Gathering and crafting has been my main gameplay loop in nearly all games I've played. Atm it seems as if I won't be able to gather without being attacked and killed at will. Respawning somewhere and having to find my resource nodes again will already penalize me for my neural shortcomings. If I am forced by the system to cede a portion of my gathered resources to the person willfully attacking me, I will not play this game.
You are lucky that there are many games on the market.
Another option might be to allow free action(s) without penalty on anyone that has one of your stolen items on them.
Ideal solution is to give the gatherers a chance to escape the gank. Break target lock & vanish. Something like that. But it can't be foolproof -- the attacker needs a chance. And there needs to be an equal risk for the attacker.
Maybe allow gatherers to bury/stash items and retrieve them before heading back to their city. This would let them protect any valuable items they've gathered until they're done gathering.
Another idea is to let gatherers keep a "poison pill" in their bags. This would create risk for the attacker. This poison pill would be disguised as a valuable gathered item, but if dropped and looted, would have severe consequences. Maybe it would cause max corruption (regardless of the gatherer's corruption state before the gank), or maybe it would cause a one-hour debuff to health (giving the gatherer a chance to get payback), or maybe it would cause the attacker to die and drop all gear. Something to balance the risk/reward for both the attacker and the gatherer.
However, Ashes, with open world PvP is going to take what is normally a relaxing activity and turn it into a stressful one. This is going to be like playing in the Dark Zone in the Division, or playing Ultima Online. It does not matter to me that they only get a percentage, the incentive is there, and it is always more profitable to let others gather and to kill and steal their resources. People are creative, I do not believe Intrepid can pull this off. I am not sure why it is even being attempted.
Why not let players have their cake and eat it too. Offer different server types. Full world PvP (as is currently intended), and Siege event only PvP (no open world PvP outside of specific events). Let people pay for and play the game in the way they want to play it, service all markets at once and don't force everyone into a compromise that no one truly likes.
I understand the drive towards player engagement, but people play MMO games for different reasons. Not everyone wants an intense and forcefully engaged experience 24/7. Some people like to be in control and write their story, not be the punch line, literally, of another persons story. Creating intense competition in PvP is only going to push people towards meta builds and away from RP activities.
With that said, what tools or activities would gatherers like to see to help protect
their hard-earned materials while adventuring in Verra?
Hey all!
I would not necessarily frame the question this way. I will elaborate later on because in AOC basically everything you do is in some way, shape or form considered risk/reward.
* When you explore.
* When you interact with other players.
* When you interact with the environment.
* When you interact in the designed events.
* When you die.
* When you gather resources, etc... and that is fine.
Also, Open World PVP is not viewed the same as in PVP designated areas. If you love PVP, you have your safe avenue.
In AOC, PVP in the Open World is in some way a coercion tactic and that is where the Player Corruption System comes in.
And I am very eager to see how this system will perform. Will it be a slap on the hand or a burden (a badge-of-dishonor) folks will want to carry. -And- Will the community swiftly bash and stone them as punishment or will they have a blind-eye and wait their turn in line?
Because there are several types of players and they all want to be part of the community in Verra:
* Full PVPer <--- Views the entire gameplay as PVP scenarios
* Full PVEer <--- Avoid participating in PVP scenarios
* Anything in between <--- Interacts in PVP and/or PVE scenarios
In other games you can toggle On/Off flagging yourself as basically a combatant (PVPer- You willingly accept the reward/risk).
In AOC we are all mixed in the same pot of saints and sinners ruled by the law of the land.
All of this said, I agree and accept the reward/risk they are envisioning (at a degree at least).
As many have discussed in the past, this is an MMO, not a survival game or an FPS (You dont lose Ammo, Weapons, Medkits,Currency, etc.. and can acquire them back in the next rumble or match).
You tend to invest way more hours in an MMO setting (gathering,crafting,exploring.. not just in PVP).
I wouldnt mind losing a reasonable % of my inventory.
I know we shoulnt get ahead of ourselves. We still dont know how the Corruption System will actually work, etc... A lot of unknowns until A2 and/or after.
A lot of people have provided suggestions and ideas to try to mitigate item loss. These are my two cents on the matter.
Inventory Design and Mitigating Item Loss:
* Based on item type and quality/rarity (each item type and/or quality has a % that can be dropped) <--- Higher quality items have a reduced % among the dropped items.
* Acquiring a Gatherer Certificate at the Trainer (allows the owner to reduce a % of items dropped. You could improve this by specializing in that
profession). <--- Devs can decide the % amounts and/or the required level.
* Bag utility specs (enchantment/attachment and crafted bags - have reduce % of loot dropped)
I am not worried about BOTS at any level for AOC. I may have high hopes in their promises and goals. They can always implement FWA methods and processes for the detection of these types of activities.
On another note, if someone for some reason wants to attack and steal another Players Loot, that should be okay. You will be flagged as Corrupted (If the player did not attack) and You should DIE and a few times.
But, this shouldnt be the go-to for acquiring resources and/or loot.
In most cases, you can bet they will not be alone .. rather in corrupted search parties. We'll see!
Hey, can a Corrupted Player trade a Non-Combatant? Could a scheme work here? (Lets call it Loot-Ring)
G1 / (G2,G3,G4) <--- Corrupted Player/Group Gank an X amount of people and acquire Loot (Cannot head over to town to deposit due to flagged status).
1st Interaction with G5 <--- Corrupted Player/Group meet in Y location, attacks/kills or trades Non-Combatant friendly.
And/Or
2nd Interaction with G5 <--- Non-Combatant friendly Attacks/kills Corrupted Player/Group at designated location and acquires Loot.
G5 <--- Non-Combatant friendly heads into town and deposits loot in bank and later on shares the wealth.
Can this be worth it? What do you guys think?
I just hope that if its going to be a free-for-all due to work-arounds to the system, the Devs are taking into consideration the amount of resources needed to craft something. Tied to that is the market and how to manage a sustainable, healthy economy. And then ther is the quality of life.
Anyone remember Age of Conan combat? If you were not in a party you would get crushed, oh and dont forget the fatalities... lol
I wonder how many will stand against or for Corruption?
Also, anyone know if Non-Combatant and Combatant players will drop equipped and/or BOE gear? If not, equipping every BOE is a must. lol
Attacker:
1- You get the loot , if you succeed.
2- You get higher amounts of exp. than to constantly kill random players (Less penalty)
Trader:
1-Better have insurance via NPC to avoid too much of a loss.
or have a Merc contract.and try to survive the encounter moving from A to B.
2- I would assume they get exp when the trade quest is completed (Win/Lose).
Roles are going to be a major factor in AOC. Also in what communities you engage in...
You either are an Enforcer, Disruptor or Supporter of progress in your area.
You enforce the laws and/or rules or the land.
You disrupt the laws and/or rules or the land.
You support the enforcers and/or the disruptors.
The Devs always have their hands full and in part that is maybe why they call for feedback on various topics. Utilizing the community as a nexus to troubleshoot issues is key in avoiding past or recurring issues. Allows them to make a better experience for the player. Insight is a great resource to have. Lets continue to provide it. If they can find a balance, this game can be fun.
@PapaWhiskey I think the drop chance should depend on how much time was spent. Low quality abundant resources should drop less often as the time investment was high.
High quality rare resources which you randomly pick up or you get from raids should drop easier. Those are skilled hardcore players who should hurry to the nearest node with valuables, not wander hours long with them over the entire map.
From what I've heard, it is obvious that a large portion of AoC game design will be orientated around PvP. I have some suggestions to make it... more bearable for players like me.
1) None-PvP-flagged players should receive a 'Proximity Alert' on their minimap that a Bandit/PvPer is in the area. While the Bandits/PvPers should have to rely on careful scouting, far-sight abilities and the use of high-terrain to notice other players before they themselves would show up on their target's minimap.
--This is to let the None-PvPer be able to respond first (most of the time). Let us weigh our options of: fighting, running or hiding.
--Getting ganked in mid mob fight is lame if all it takes is for the ganker to run up to you with a mount. Mounted Bandits/PvPers should definitely be far more noticeable to surrounding players.
2) Introduce Stealth and Non-Detection mechanics into subclass abilities and/or crafted consumables for None-PvPers.
--Give the None-PvPers some tools to avoid PvP or even get away from a fight.
--Make the stealth mechanics more effective for None-PvPers. That way PvPers can still find each other.
3) Give None-PvPers the option to hire NPC bodyguards at nodes.
--Some sort of temporary buff or an item that will summon guards to net or stun a Bandit/PvPer temporarily. Giving the None-PvPer the opportunity to get away.
--Maybe while the guards are still alive, if the None-PvPers is killed they don't drop/give-up any loot. So if the Bandit/PvPer wants to make the kill worth anything, they have to deal with the summoned guards first.
If you are going to force PvP on us, give us the tools to effectively avoid it. And by 'effectively', I mean 9/10 we should be able to get away or avoid PvP (at least for None-PvPers). Ganking should require skill, patience and persistence.
But at least we have established and possibly agreed that:
* If a player dies (In this case a Gatherer, based on the discussion), will drop a % of their inventory.
- If the Devs are able to come up with a reasonable and just amount of item Loss-Per-death that:
1- Will Not trump or dissuade a player from gathering resources.
2- Will Not grief the player every single time they die and their mule is looted. Lets put a
hypothetical scenario:
The gatherer has the following herb items:
Wir Root x 10 <--- For argument sake, these are low quality and/or abundant - LPD = 50%.
Caletsygia Sepium x 10 <--- For argument sake, these are high quality and/or rare - LPD = 20%.
The Loss-Per-Death droprate is from 50% to 5% for herb types (The Item Manager Spreadsheet should
even include zone, level, etc.. so the percentage could increase or decrease, etc - Devs could play
around with this for a while).
The Gatherer will lose: 5 Wir Root and 2 Caletsygia Sepium. He/She will drop 7 out of the 20 herb type
items they had. A 35% loss. There can be other more complex calculations set in place that would
consider total items and could substract accordingly so there isnt a total loss.
You are telling me a player (gatherer) should lose even more?
I just want a just and balanced ecosystem that allows players to flourish even with the loss due to harsh and unpredictable conditions.
And please, dont get me wrong here. If two player "Gatherers" reach a particular zone and they both want to harvest the same node or resource... I am all for the conflict of interest in that situation:
* Who will reach and loot it first?
* Will Gatherer B let it slide and continue his search for more else where -or- will he attack in the hopes to win the fight and loot a fraction of the resources Gatherer A had?
* Will Gatherer A be greedy enough to attack Gatherer B and risk losing a fraction of what he has?
* Will they both be considered and share the land?
Based on the feedback from other folks, there even might be another player in the zone, waiting for both Gatherers to finish their conflict and have low HP to have their feast ...
Some might even say that because the system pushes you to be a criminal (self inflicted action), why would you stop there at 1 kill, right?
If that will be the nature of this game, there must be some restrictions and controls set in place to have a fair and just opportunity for progress.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I know that I may be going off topic here, but hopefully there will not be a disadvantage among the types of players. Because coercing full PVE players to react to other players to protect their "interests" is one thing and granting PVPers most of the benefits from PK is another thing that should be considered and addressed at least to some degree. A2 will be very interesting.
There are two main reasons why someone would get Corruption:
1- They love the thrill of the hunt, enjoy killing other players and crave the misery of others.
2- Conflict of Interest.
Maybe 3 reasons then... lol All the above. Because some may want it all. And if a player considers that everything is for the taking because you could have it all based on how the systems are in place, then there must be a limit to what you can have. If this behavior is at your core or something you want and will pursue then you should continue doing it, but at a price. Everyone has the right to do as they please. If you want to be a Criminal in-game, do it. Be a Murderer? Do it. Be a Looter? Do it. Carry with pride what ever persona you wish to embody in Verra and with it, the responsability.
Dont expect the game to provide you with something (resources for example) as if you were a Gatherer. Remember, you choose to be a Criminal, or a Murderer, or a Looter, not a Gatherer.
Thanks for the reply @Strevi. Have a great weekend all!
Steven mentions often the risk vs reward concept. It is a design pillar of the game.
If a player spends time gathering Tier 1 (Common) ore, I expect the game to provide that in abundance.
Tier 2 (Uncommon) should be less abundant but still available in large enough quantities to spend let's say 1-2 hours gathering and transporting them with the mule. Maybe 10 or more trips will be made back to the node being fully loaded with Tier 2 resources.
A player looking for somebody to fight and loot, and observing such activities, will have no reason to gain corruption in order to get Tier 2 materials which he could gather himself too in 10-20 minutes.
Tier 4 (Epic) resources I expect them to be very rare. Not something you can gather many times to load a mule. And will be guarded by high level NPCs. But even if those would drop randomly, once the gatherer gets them, should head fast to the nearest node. Not wander over the map, relaxed that if he dies, he will drop more of the useless stuff.
Why? Low risk to drop Tier 4 would defeat the purpose of risk vs reward. The gatherer is the greedy one, who wants to be rewarded nicely and get lower risk too. And that would allow him to go back to his freehold instead of placing them first safely at the closest node and planning how to transport them with caravans. Or sell them locally at lower price.
The Tier 3 (Rare) resources I expect to be those which will be farmed often by parties, as those will deplete fast and a solo player will be both at high risk alone and also a valuable target worth killing and getting corruption.
If Tier 3 will be less likely to drop, players will gather Tier 3 rather solo, because would be more efficient (no need to share them with others, you optimize and you go where you want).
So for the shake of risk vs reward, a player who has a few pieces of Tier 3 - 4 will have to choose higher risk to stay and get more of them or lower risk and run back to safety with what he got.
The same applies a pure PvP-er. If the gatherer is greedy, will fight back and the PvP-er gets fewer materials.
If the gatherer wants to put more risk onto the attacker, will avoid fighting back, will give him also more resources and also corruption. The corrupt player will be on the run, will not be able to go to the node, his freehold with chests might be too far away, will not be able to kill other green players (not even in self-defense).
The question of the thread is not how to balance the drops but what kind of additional activities players could do.
just out of curiosity, what do you propose that the devs do to to help us pvp players who dont wanna get griefed by pve players? because let me tell you that pvers are the biggest griefers that ive encountered in many games. sure, you might have an asshole every now and then who uses a high level alt to kill lowbies in a lowbie area for whatever reason, maybe he isnt good enough to kill high level players. only he knows why...but for each guy like that, ive encountered 10 pve griefers that dont even need to attack u to grief you.
also, what should we do about pvers griefing other pvers?
the game is pvpve but people only focus, in every thread, on the big bad meanie pvper who wants to kill the innocent gatherer.
also what do you, or anybody else, propose we do against gatherers who get ganked by another gatherer, then come back to the same spot to kill their ganker? they were midning their own business, but now they are the agressor?
and if 9/10 non pvpers can hide and avoid the pvpers, then whats the point of the system anyways? theres no risk, it goes against the overall design of risk and reward
I'm a harvester and a crafter, when i play these type of games i really love the risk factor that comes from harvesting the materials that i need to craft, it's what makes these games fun.
This game is supposed to be a guild game, group up and make friends doing stuff that you all like to enjoy and that's why when harvesting you should always bring a friend or 2 to make it safer and more enjoyable.
I like the route of all inventory items can be looted but attackers have to risk worn items as well, one random item could be looted if they fail the attack, i think that's the fair way, attackers will need to ask themselves Is it worth it? before going in for the gank.
Now i know there will be players out there who just want to harvest without any risk because they hate pvp, these players probably won't be in a guild or in a very small guild with their friends. All they need to do is to join a large guild who owns a town and gather within its territory, every guild will need gatherers and crafters so there will always be pvp players willing to protect them because without them the guild won't get there crafting production going.
Hiding mechanics could be nice, but the constant stress of looking around for pvp'ers seems unenjoyable (its important that the gathering process can at least be somewhat chill if I have to spend hours gathering)
The real question is: When am I even in need of mechanics that provide extra protection? It's definetly not when I am deep within a dungeon and I am just gathering some rare resources. I need protection when I go to an "medium-difficulty" gather spot and tell myself that I want to gather an hour. A spot that gives me enough resources that I am worth to be killed is the one where I want to protect myself.
So, how to do that in a chill manner? Hiding mechanics in a way that don't require me to constantly look around. Players could be made invisible and allowed to reset their timer on that when gathering. Players could have a system where the more gather resources they carry, the more appealing (someway) they become to pvp players. So gatherers, if they want to, can in their cycle of gathering decide to play it safe (run back to the city to stash resources). Here again the idea of risk/reward. Playing it safe wont yield as much resources.
If gathering gets to a point where doing pvp for gathered resources is worth more than gathering yourself => you loose the entire gathering playerbase. Therefore it's really important to get this right.
pvp players will also gather, so nope, you wont lose the entire gathering playerbase xD
the system is already right. you can always go to a lower level area and gather if you dont wanna fight over high level resources and then you will be safe
Tools:
Counter Play Anti-Stealth Mechanics– With the potential for rouge subclasses to have access to stealth (i.e., ranged + stealth) in conjunction to guaranteed stealth for rouge primary class, I believe there needs to be active and passive methods for stealth detection.
• Active - Consumables/deployable such as elixirs and flares
• Passive – Stealth detection added to some abilities of rogue archer subclasses (i.e., mage light also grants
enhanced detection in a radius)
Bounty System – Should be robust enough to be an effective community policing tool. I do have concerns the system could be abused.
• Ability to unmask a player if masking is implemented. No bounty system will work if players can
reliably hide their name plate. (i.e., break mask after x% dmg)
Effective Chat System – Communication and coordination supports healthy game play.
Activities:
Quest based gathering skills – A gatherer may need to complete a quest or task in order to gain the knowledge necessary to identify and harvest more uncommon materials. What is a “magic mushroom” to the trained gatherer may only look like a “strange mushroom” to the untrained player that just looted a corpse. The looting player would need to find an appropriately skilled gatherer to identify.