"Artisan gatherers will be prime targets for combatant players. With that said, what tools or activities would gatherers like to see to help protect their hard-earned materials while adventuring in Verra?"
Tools:
Counter Play Anti-Stealth Mechanics– With the potential for rouge subclasses to have access to stealth (i.e., ranged + stealth) in conjunction to guaranteed stealth for rouge primary class, I believe there needs to be active and passive methods for stealth detection.
• Active - Consumables/deployable such as elixirs and flares
• Passive – Stealth detection added to some abilities of rogue subclasses (i.e., mage light also grants
enhanced detection in a radius)
Bounty System – Should be robust enough to be an effective community policing tool. I do have concerns the system could be abused.
• Ability to unmask a player if masking is implemented. No bounty system will work if players can
reliably hide their name plate. (i.e., break mask after x% dmg)
Effective Chat System – Communication and coordination supports healthy game play.
Activities:
Quest based gathering skills – A gatherer may need to complete a quest or task in order to gain the knowledge necessary to identify and harvest more uncommon materials. What is a “magic mushroom” to the trained gatherer may only look like a “strange mushroom” to the untrained player that just looted a corpse. The looting player would need to find an appropriately skilled gatherer to identify.
steven has said that archers will be able to detect stealth. if you give the ability to everybody, that just ruines rogues, and archers lose utility.
also have you considered that the gatherer who is the target of a pk might want to use stealth to escape if he is a rogue? the ganker could use the flare to take the gatherer out of stealth and kill him...
ok, please do not change the system for the carebears, that's what new world did, and it didn't work!
I'm a harvester and a crafter, when i play these type of games i really love the risk factor that comes from harvesting the materials that i need to craft, it's what makes these games fun.
This game is supposed to be a guild game, group up and make friends doing stuff that you all like to enjoy and that's why when harvesting you should always bring a friend or 2 to make it safer and more enjoyable.
I think having a choice on how you want to play the game you purchased each day depending on your mood doesn't make you a carebear. This language always seems to originate with Pvp'ers who can't seem to understand or get it through their big ego's that people aren't monolithic, and they can enjoy different things at different times. Your way of playing isn't always the best for everyone else all the time. In turn, because someone isn't participating in your way of playing 24/7, it doesn't make that person's game-play less/weak/carebear, etc..., it just makes it their play-style that day. The behind the scenes mindset is that PvE gatherer players somehow need to be present & gankable to be your content, and I'm pretty sure those type of players didn't pay the same $ for the game that you did, so; they could be your entertainment. To me, that's a weak game design system.
I totally enjoyed the New World system, and I would argue that in reference to voluntary flagging or unflagging for PvP it worked great...exactly as they intended it to! When I wanted to gather in peace after a long day, I could totally do that, and enjoy it There was absolutely no stress of being ganked, and I had a blast doing it. Personally, I don't need constant risk to have fun. On the other hand, when I was ready to engage in PvP or felt like taking the risk gathering, I could simply turn it on, and enjoy that game play experience! I had some really fun times doing that, as well
Also, Steven has said that this game is supposed to have game play open to single players, as well as group or guild players. I don't think the assertion that Ashes is supposed to be solely a group/guild game is accurate. I think that's totally fine if you like to play that way, but not everyone enjoys that type of play.
Bottom line: The PvP will go down drastically, as the player base fades away, if all the PvE'ers are constantly ganked. It's happened before...it'll happen here, if this isn't balanced correctly. At the end of the day, for me, the tech is there(New World), let it be each person's choice.
Bottom line: The PvP will go down drastically, as the player base fades away, if all the PvE'ers are constantly ganked. It's happened before...it'll happen here, if this isn't balanced correctly. At the end of the day, for me, the tech is there(New World), let it be each person's choice.
it happened before but it also didnt happen before. games with the same system have survived for 10-20 years. pvpers can also gather. as you said, not everybody plays the same every day. populations drop anyways over time, even if you gank them or not. doesnt mean the game dies.
people only focus on how the "evil pvper" can ruin the day of the "innocent pver", but guess what? pvers are griefers too and they can ruin the day of pvp players as well (or even other pvers). so why should you get special treatment and have the game remove the risk from your prefered activity but i cant get the same treatment as a non pure pver?
People only focus on how the "evil pvper" can ruin the day of the "innocent pver", but guess what? pvers are griefers too and they can ruin the day of pvp players as well (or even other pvers). so why should you get special treatment and have the game remove the risk from your prefered activity but i cant get the same treatment as a non pure pver?
I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm saying each person should be able to pve or pvp at their choice. You are asking that my choice be eliminated:so, I have to participate in your pvp experience. Big difference.
Personally, I haven't been griefed by a pve player in the last decade or so. I was griefed back in the day when there weren't very many harvest nodes, and they weren't instanced. So not sure what type of griefing you are actually referring to here?
People only focus on how the "evil pvper" can ruin the day of the "innocent pver", but guess what? pvers are griefers too and they can ruin the day of pvp players as well (or even other pvers). so why should you get special treatment and have the game remove the risk from your prefered activity but i cant get the same treatment as a non pure pver?
I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm saying each person should be able to pve or pvp at their choice. You are asking that my choice be eliminated:so, I have to participate in your pvp experience. Big difference.
Personally, I haven't been griefed by a pve player in the last decade or so. I was griefed back in the day when there weren't very many harvest nodes, and they weren't instanced. So not sure what type of griefing you are actually referring to here?
it is special treatment. although to be fair, that was the point of this thread made by vaknar, even though i think his wording wasnt accurate saying gatherers will be the primary targets.
when i say you, i dont mean you specifically, i mean people who advocate for a similar thing. if you have an inconvenience with the system, you can always go gather in a lower level zone (steven said that all mats will be useful, even low level mats iirc) and you most likely wont be killed there. you can also play with friends and protect each other when someone ganks you. or people can simply find excuses and then ask in the forum for a perfectly good system to be changed, and the sad thing is, when lots of people cry, systems tend to be changed.
if you are telling me that your choice is eliminated and you have to participate in pvp, i can argue the same thing as a pvper. why do i need to pve to be able to be pvp ready? (gear, potions, etc) the game is forcing me to do something i dont want to do. also, by you mining the few orchicalcum ores that exist on the map, you are forcing me to not play the game the way i want to play and not do the activity i want to do. i come back home from work, i wanna relax and farm some orichalcum so that i can craft my gear, but there are no nodes because you took them all! so now my choice of gathering is eliminated. you see how we can apply the same argument to everything? at least, with pvp on, we can fight for the right of farming the orchicalcum ore.
pvers grief too. although i expect the forums to be filled with posts of people crying after the game is released, i dont want to give anybody ideas. but ill say that mob dropping comes to mind since its probably the most obvious one.
People only focus on how the "evil pvper" can ruin the day of the "innocent pver", but guess what? pvers are griefers too and they can ruin the day of pvp players as well (or even other pvers). so why should you get special treatment and have the game remove the risk from your prefered activity but i cant get the same treatment as a non pure pver?
I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm saying each person should be able to pve or pvp at their choice. You are asking that my choice be eliminated:so, I have to participate in your pvp experience. Big difference.
Personally, I haven't been griefed by a pve player in the last decade or so. I was griefed back in the day when there weren't very many harvest nodes, and they weren't instanced. So not sure what type of griefing you are actually referring to here?
When people have a choice to set the flag on or off, people will rather keep it off even if they are the kind of players who ask on forums for PvP servers.
This will transform the game into a PvE game because the majority of players are like so.
But will also make the game like the other MMOs, where developers chase revenue and make the game solo friendly and boring. The risk vs reward will be present in a much lower amount. That is not the objective of these developers.
But as an alternative to being able to turn on/off the PvP flag, there is another way too, where you turn it on by entering into some areas and turn it off when you leave. How do you feel about that?
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
if you are telling me that your choice is eliminated and you have to participate in pvp, i can argue the same thing as a pvper. why do i need to pve to be able to be pvp ready? (gear, potions, etc) the game is forcing me to do something i dont want to do. also, by you mining the few orchicalcum ores that exist on the map, you are forcing me to not play the game the way i want to play and not do the activity i want to do. i come back home from work, i wanna relax and farm some orichalcum so that i can craft my gear, but there are no nodes because you took them all! so now my choice of gathering is eliminated. you see how we can apply the same argument to everything? at least, with pvp on, we can fight for the right of farming the orchicalcum ore.
pvers grief too. although i expect the forums to be filled with posts of people crying after the game is released, i dont want to give anybody ideas. but ill say that mob dropping comes to mind since its probably the most obvious one.
First, I don't think PvPers in general are evil. However, I have seen my share of gankers who I think aren't the best people, as it seems like you have seen on the Pve side.
Second, I totally hear what you are saying. I think using tech like instanced nodes, and game design with Pvp specific gear that you get from pvp activities without crafting could address that issue. With those type of systems you wouldn't be griefed, and you wouldn't have to spend time crafting if that's not your thing. Personally, I know the tech exists to solve these problems, and I think that systems can be designed so that people can play to a certain degree how they want without being forced into game play they don't enjoy.
Now, this might just not be the game for options like these. If so, at launch, people, including me, will just have to decide if they want to purchase or invest time in the game with the design that they choose to incorporate. I'll make my final decision at that point.
But as an alternative to being able to turn on/off the PvP flag, there is another way too, where you turn it on by entering into some areas and turn it off when you leave. How do you feel about that?
When I played Archeage, there were certain zones that were always PvE, ones that were always PvP, and some that alternated between depending on the war/peace cycle. Honestly, I didn't mind the system, because you kind of knew before going into a region what you were committing to. If you didn't feel like Pvping that day, you could always go craft or harvest stuff in the peace zones. if you did or you were open to the risk, you could go to the other places. Although, the questline did force you through all the zones at some point.
But as an alternative to being able to turn on/off the PvP flag, there is another way too, where you turn it on by entering into some areas and turn it off when you leave. How do you feel about that?
When I played Archeage, there were certain zones that were always PvE, ones that were always PvP, and some that alternated between depending on the war/peace cycle. Honestly, I didn't mind the system, because you kind of knew before going into a region what you were committing to. If you didn't feel like Pvping that day, you could always go craft or harvest stuff in the peace zones. if you did or you were open to the risk, you could go to the other places. Although, the questline did force you through all the zones at some point.
Nice!
I like that you are not like those PvE players who demand the right to have access to the entire map safely.
This game seems to go in this direction too. Pure PvP areas which will allow the corruption to be easier to be balanced toward offering more protection. Might end up this protection to be strong enough (like Steven said) to protect PvE players and at the same time the game to remain a PvP game.
The only thing they have to take care of is to not protect when the PvE player gets a very valuable resource/material, either by RNG or because he entered for 5 minutes into some area and grabbed fast a rare/epic resource and managed to leave that area.
If this player's path back to the chest is long, there should be danger associated with this trip. Just like if he would try to transport it from a node to another one.
I associate corruption with greed.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
if there are very rarly drops from dungeons it would be nice (for the gatherer) if there was a way to store it in an extra bag so it needs some time to loot from there, so you have an chance to recover it BUT it need to placed manualy there. so your hard work wouldn't wasted in some seconds by and overpowered pvp ganker.
gaterers need some sort of protection, otherways its like in albion where big pvp clanes rule the server, set there own pvp rules and have own gatherers that have to deliver most there raw materials.
Or there is a NPC someone can summon to store things only temporarly (like 10 minutes or so).
So Even if its payed with real money - player could "sell" this service to others or they betrey you and run with it, or Ganker act as they would sell this service to steal your stuff but it was just a deception to lure them out and kill. So many possibilities
I think that in the end it will come down finances/player base. Will it matter if a good percentage of players fade away because of the PVP? A niche game? As long as that keeps the game viable, okay. If devs call it that, then they need to stick by it. Be happy raking in less money. I am not very good at PVP though I try my best. Never have I quit an MMORPG because of it. But I do get frustrated if I get killed for someone's shits-and-giggles every time I am just trying to pick a flower. If I start getting robbed of my valued possessions, well, I am not sure how I will feel. None of the MMOs I have played were like that. And I do think that is risky for the health of the game.
I liked how SWG, admittedly my first MMORPG, did PVP. Flagging by choice for PVP, or being foolish and wandering into the wrong territory etc. that would trigger it. Then having to make a journey to get unflagged. It added a different level of challenge and fun to the game.
just out of curiosity, what do you propose that the devs do to to help us pvp players who dont wanna get griefed by pve players? because let me tell you that pvers are the biggest griefers that ive encountered in many games. sure, you might have an asshole every now and then who uses a high level alt to kill lowbies in a lowbie area for whatever reason, maybe he isnt good enough to kill high level players. only he knows why...but for each guy like that, ive encountered 10 pve griefers that dont even need to attack u to grief you.
also, what should we do about pvers griefing other pvers?
the game is pvpve but people only focus, in every thread, on the big bad meanie pvper who wants to kill the innocent gatherer.
also what do you, or anybody else, propose we do against gatherers who get ganked by another gatherer, then come back to the same spot to kill their ganker? they were midning their own business, but now they are the agressor?
and if 9/10 non pvpers can hide and avoid the pvpers, then whats the point of the system anyways? theres no risk, it goes against the overall design of risk and reward
Not sure how a PvEer can grief a PvPer, but if that is a thing I'm sure I could give you some suggestions to fix it.
Look, all I want is to be able to flag myself as "Not interested in PvP" and be given some tools to reduce the opportunity of being successfully ganked. All I'm proposing is:
--a PvPer/Bandit proximity alert
--consumables like an Invisibility potion or an item that makes me untrackable
--a means to purchase a guard/follower that protects me or 'my gathered items upon death'
It's a PvP environment. So it seems only fair that if I want to be left alone (to PvE freely), I have to go through the extra steps to attain that safety.
--If I have to respec my subclass to attain speed/stealth abilities for a while that's fine.
--If I have to purchase those kinds of consumables that's fine too.
--If I have to Flag myself at a Node as "Non-combative" (being only able to attack someone who attacked me first) that's totally okay with me.
"Prey should get away 9 times out of 10 from their Predator". A 10% success reflects real world statistics of Sharks, Lions and other predatory animals.
PvEers (PvP-prey) will make up most of your community. If you want your PvP-world to thrive, you drastically need to reduce the chances of a 'successful gank'. Because I've played in games where the Gankers succeeds 9/10 times... and in those games I've quit or transfered to a PvE realm. If AoC offers a PvE realm I'll just go there; but I haven't heard the Devs talking about making that available yet.
I look forward to seeing what the developers come up with.
The only thing that comes to mind, is having some kind of gathering cart or companion, that, when full, could be sent back to town to empty. While the cart is being filled up it is vulnerable to the player losing some/all of the items. Once sent back to town, the materials then become deposited and safe.
I think that in the end it will come down finances/player base. Will it matter if a good percentage of players fade away because of the PVP? A niche game? As long as that keeps the game viable, okay. If devs call it that, then they need to stick by it. Be happy raking in less money. I am not very good at PVP though I try my best. Never have I quit an MMORPG because of it. But I do get frustrated if I get killed for someone's shits-and-giggles every time I am just trying to pick a flower. If I start getting robbed of my valued possessions, well, I am not sure how I will feel. None of the MMOs I have played were like that. And I do think that is risky for the health of the game.
I liked how SWG, admittedly my first MMORPG, did PVP. Flagging by choice for PVP, or being foolish and wandering into the wrong territory etc. that would trigger it. Then having to make a journey to get unflagged. It added a different level of challenge and fun to the game.
remember that the person who killed you will be way worse than you. honestly, i dont see gatherers being targetted too often, unless you are in an area where theres a specific resource that only spawns there and the big guilds want it, in which case, you can always join one of them
also consider that there will be other people in the vecinity trying to help if someone attacks you. friends, guildies, random people who will attack anybody who goes purple, and most people arent dumb enough to go corrupted with other players nearby . also, remember that there are stat penalties for players who gain too much corruption, this will keep you safe from high levels (unless you are in a locked down area). there will always be areas to gather where people wont attack you, or not very often.
just out of curiosity, what do you propose that the devs do to to help us pvp players who dont wanna get griefed by pve players? because let me tell you that pvers are the biggest griefers that ive encountered in many games. sure, you might have an asshole every now and then who uses a high level alt to kill lowbies in a lowbie area for whatever reason, maybe he isnt good enough to kill high level players. only he knows why...but for each guy like that, ive encountered 10 pve griefers that dont even need to attack u to grief you.
also, what should we do about pvers griefing other pvers?
the game is pvpve but people only focus, in every thread, on the big bad meanie pvper who wants to kill the innocent gatherer.
also what do you, or anybody else, propose we do against gatherers who get ganked by another gatherer, then come back to the same spot to kill their ganker? they were midning their own business, but now they are the agressor?
and if 9/10 non pvpers can hide and avoid the pvpers, then whats the point of the system anyways? theres no risk, it goes against the overall design of risk and reward
Not sure how a PvEer can grief a PvPer, but if that is a thing I'm sure I could give you some suggestions to fix it.
Look, all I want is to be able to flag myself as "Not interested in PvP" and be given some tools to reduce the opportunity of being successfully ganked. All I'm proposing is:
--a PvPer/Bandit proximity alert
--consumables like an Invisibility potion or an item that makes me untrackable
--a means to purchase a guard/follower that protects me or 'my gathered items upon death'
It's a PvP environment. So it seems only fair that if I want to be left alone (to PvE freely), I have to go through the extra steps to attain that safety.
--If I have to respec my subclass to attain speed/stealth abilities for a while that's fine.
--If I have to purchase those kinds of consumables that's fine too.
--If I have to Flag myself at a Node as "Non-combative" (being only able to attack someone who attacked me first) that's totally okay with me.
"Prey should get away 9 times out of 10 from their Predator". A 10% success reflects real world statistics of Sharks, Lions and other predatory animals.
PvEers (PvP-prey) will make up most of your community. If you want your PvP-world to thrive, you drastically need to reduce the chances of a 'successful gank'. Because I've played in games where the Gankers succeeds 9/10 times... and in those games I've quit or transfered to a PvE realm. If AoC offers a PvE realm I'll just go there; but I haven't heard the Devs talking about making that available yet.
there are many ways you can grief someone, or even kill them without even manually attacking them. i dont wanna give people ideas, but im not going to suggest how to fix it, since it doesnt need fixing. the greatness of the current system allows me to deal with it however i see fit. something i would be unable to do if players could remove their pvp flag like they can in other games.
you can flag as "not interested in pvp" by just staying green and not attacking purples . also if you could add a label or whatever to your name as "not interested in pvp" you can abuse it by getting close to people and suddenly hitting them (like a warrior getting close to a ranger to have an immediate advantage). normally, if you saw someone running towards you, you would be on your toes so they cant get the jump on you or first hit, etc.
also, if you get tools that allow you to avoid pvp, this goes against the design philosophy of risk vs reward. why should you get to do an activity with basically 0 risk while getting a high reward? low risk = low reward and high risk = high reward. you cant have high risk = low reward or no one will do it. you cant have low risk = high reward, because whats the point of having a risk then or the whole system? if 9/10 times you can avoid the pvper, then might as well remove the whole open world pvp system.
btw 9/10 times you can tell if someone will try to attack you even before they come close to you, when you learn to spot that, you will be able to run away for your life, no problem
also dont you think that invisibility potins can be used by a ganker to get right next to you and kill you?
also, there are multiple ways someone can kill you without oing purple or red...at least the current system gives you a chance to deal with that.
you can also go gather tier 1 materials at a low level zone with 0 risk of dying. and tbh most people will leave you alone unless you annoy them or they want the nodes you are after, or you go into a locked down area.
also, remember there are penalties for going red in aoc. i believe the game you were talking about was wow where you can kill the opposite faction with 0 penalties. this is a different game
Only loosely related to this, but would it be possible to restrict who can buy items you put on the marketplace. My thinking is if someone is constantly attacking a gatherer, then that gatherers guild could refuse to sell their items to that guild.
The idea being to maintain the consequences of your actions , if you upset enough people then you get less options to buy stuff.
Only loosely related to this, but would it be possible to restrict who can buy items you put on the marketplace. My thinking is if someone is constantly attacking a gatherer, then that gatherers guild could refuse to sell their items to that guild.
The idea being to maintain the consequences of your actions , if you upset enough people then you get less options to buy stuff.
why punish their whole guild? why cant the gatherer call his guild for help in pvp ?_?
You can do that too, but why can't I decide who I sell my products too?
I say guild because individuals I think would be too tricky, but blacklisting people would be good too
0
Options
AlusiMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Not sure if this has been mentioned by another post already, dont have time to read through all these right now sorry.
Respawns and Ganking. In other MMORPG's I have played being spawn camped and ganked over and over was a thing. Not sure how Ashes will deal with this but a gatherer perhaps wont mind being ganked once but 20 times in a row for example when spawn camped. They will probably log and go and play something else.
However open world PvP turns out with of course ganking gatherers some balance needs to be sort. If no one has any incentive to gather as being ganked while gathering happens too often then no one will gather. This will also kill the game as its design requires these materials to be gathered by somebody willing to put in the time to gather.
If the balance is to only ever gather in large organised groups for protection then so be it just dont then tell people that solo play gathering is an option as most likely it wont be realistically.
You can do that too, but why can't I decide who I sell my products too?
I say guild because individuals I think would be too tricky, but blacklisting people would be good too
yeah you can decide who you sell to. i thought you meant an in game functionality that did that
Maybe have two type of resources, one being only gathered while in non PVP mode. example general gear and potions and another that's only gatherable when you are in PVP mode.
For example crafting mats for siege equipment or PVP potions.
0
Options
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
How about, if you are fully kitted out in resource specific gathering gear, then your mini-map radar increases.
If you are pk`ed the radius further increases for a period of time.
Subsequent pk`s well a little more.
Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm just used to different game styles. What ever happened to like "zoned PvP"? I want to PvP so I go into the PvP zone and capture points or run around and gank other people who have entered the zone? I'm thinking of Dark Age of Camelot in this example but there have been other games that have done this well. Or World of Warcraft (Yep, I said it) where you have to join a battle in order to PvP?
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
I'm going to talk about this from my experience of gathering and PvP in three games: RuneScape, New World, and ArcheAge.
From my experience, the worst gathering moments weren't from being PK'd by others, and losing materials and time from that. The worst moments were when I was trying to gather something, and I was essentially griefed by a bot or someone with more movement skills than me, and took all the mining nodes. And because the bots could just not be flagged for PvP or were in a peace zone, I couldn't even fight over the nodes. That's the worst experience I've had, not PvP.
I'm adding a second post to this discussion because I really think this needs to be talked about more. Gatherers griefing Gatherers, what systems are in place to prevent it?
Maybe gathering nodes are personal? Like I can grab the flower but you can also grab the flower? Or I can mine the ore and you can also mine the ore? IIRC, there are rare and finite resources too right? I'm not sure how that can work with finite resources... Maybe it works on everything but the super rare stuff?
Maybe have two type of resources, one being only gathered while in non PVP mode. example general gear and potions and another that's only gatherable when you are in PVP mode.
For example crafting mats for siege equipment or PVP potions
PvP specific loot created from PvP specific gathering? PvE specific loot created from PvE specific gathering?
Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm just used to different game styles. What ever happened to like "zoned PvP"? I want to PvP so I go into the PvP zone and capture points or run around and gank other people who have entered the zone? I'm thinking of Dark Age of Camelot in this example but there have been other games that have done this well. Or World of Warcraft (Yep, I said it) where you have to join a battle in order to PvP?
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
I mean this a prime example where I would say “this game just isn’t for you”. The systems are built around pvp and removing it in any chase changes the game.
I think the only real solution is to give you a PvE server and call good but once again mechanics revolve around PvP.
PvP needs to exist with some risk/reward to combat botting as well as just adding a threat other then shitty AI into a game.
You can do that too, but why can't I decide who I sell my products too?
I say guild because individuals I think would be too tricky, but blacklisting people would be good too
yeah, you can decide who you sell to. i thought you meant an in game functionality that did that
Well, I mean a system to allow me to blacklist people on the marketplace, so my stuff won't be sold to them, with option for the guild to do the same thing, I'm thinking in a guild war situation do you want to be supplying your enemy?
You could try to convince other guilds to not supply your enemy in return for some other service. It feels like it could drive positive social interaction and give a real impact for people's actions.
"Artisan gatherers will be prime targets for combatant players."
- Gatherers should not be punished for gathering, only for transport goods via ships or caravans. Non corrupt players should not droop ANY loot at all. Why is that? Well, its easy question to answer - its overall net negative for enjoyment of the playerbase. PK player, who saw a walking by gatherer and kill him, gets ego boost from the kill and some enjoyment from the loot. Gatherer who gets killed gets nothing but frustration and anger. Anger - because he lost possibly hours of work, and frustration because he is powerless to do anything about that, some guy just decided to kill him. And no, he could NOT fight back, because attacker only attacks if he is sure in his victory. Fight like this ALWAYS be rigged in favor of PKeer.
- As for caravans, well - caravans are quite large and can be armed. For example something like a scorpion on top of a wagon or a small cannon would greatly balance the battlefield. After all, as in the previous example, the players attacking the caravan, in most cases, will decide to attack only if they think they will win. Players attacking a caravan, will almost always outnumber the defenders of the caravan, because they know the number of defenders. And if they know the number of defenders, they can easily understand how many people need to guarantee a win. So caravans musts have something to defend themselves outside of number or level of the defenders.
P.S. Sorry for sloppy english, its not my first language.
Or another solution for caravans, which will be way easier to implement - buffs for defenders. Something like X% more HP and damage for players who decided to join the defense of the caravan or any other form of buff.
Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm just used to different game styles. What ever happened to like "zoned PvP"? I want to PvP so I go into the PvP zone and capture points or run around and gank other people who have entered the zone? I'm thinking of Dark Age of Camelot in this example but there have been other games that have done this well. Or World of Warcraft (Yep, I said it) where you have to join a battle in order to PvP?
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.
Comments
steven has said that archers will be able to detect stealth. if you give the ability to everybody, that just ruines rogues, and archers lose utility.
also have you considered that the gatherer who is the target of a pk might want to use stealth to escape if he is a rogue? the ganker could use the flare to take the gatherer out of stealth and kill him...
I think having a choice on how you want to play the game you purchased each day depending on your mood doesn't make you a carebear. This language always seems to originate with Pvp'ers who can't seem to understand or get it through their big ego's that people aren't monolithic, and they can enjoy different things at different times. Your way of playing isn't always the best for everyone else all the time. In turn, because someone isn't participating in your way of playing 24/7, it doesn't make that person's game-play less/weak/carebear, etc..., it just makes it their play-style that day. The behind the scenes mindset is that PvE gatherer players somehow need to be present & gankable to be your content, and I'm pretty sure those type of players didn't pay the same $ for the game that you did, so; they could be your entertainment. To me, that's a weak game design system.
I totally enjoyed the New World system, and I would argue that in reference to voluntary flagging or unflagging for PvP it worked great...exactly as they intended it to! When I wanted to gather in peace after a long day, I could totally do that, and enjoy it
Also, Steven has said that this game is supposed to have game play open to single players, as well as group or guild players. I don't think the assertion that Ashes is supposed to be solely a group/guild game is accurate. I think that's totally fine if you like to play that way, but not everyone enjoys that type of play.
Bottom line: The PvP will go down drastically, as the player base fades away, if all the PvE'ers are constantly ganked. It's happened before...it'll happen here, if this isn't balanced correctly. At the end of the day, for me, the tech is there(New World), let it be each person's choice.
it happened before but it also didnt happen before. games with the same system have survived for 10-20 years. pvpers can also gather. as you said, not everybody plays the same every day. populations drop anyways over time, even if you gank them or not. doesnt mean the game dies.
people only focus on how the "evil pvper" can ruin the day of the "innocent pver", but guess what? pvers are griefers too and they can ruin the day of pvp players as well (or even other pvers). so why should you get special treatment and have the game remove the risk from your prefered activity but i cant get the same treatment as a non pure pver?
it is special treatment. although to be fair, that was the point of this thread made by vaknar, even though i think his wording wasnt accurate saying gatherers will be the primary targets.
when i say you, i dont mean you specifically, i mean people who advocate for a similar thing. if you have an inconvenience with the system, you can always go gather in a lower level zone (steven said that all mats will be useful, even low level mats iirc) and you most likely wont be killed there. you can also play with friends and protect each other when someone ganks you. or people can simply find excuses and then ask in the forum for a perfectly good system to be changed, and the sad thing is, when lots of people cry, systems tend to be changed.
if you are telling me that your choice is eliminated and you have to participate in pvp, i can argue the same thing as a pvper. why do i need to pve to be able to be pvp ready? (gear, potions, etc) the game is forcing me to do something i dont want to do. also, by you mining the few orchicalcum ores that exist on the map, you are forcing me to not play the game the way i want to play and not do the activity i want to do. i come back home from work, i wanna relax and farm some orichalcum so that i can craft my gear, but there are no nodes because you took them all! so now my choice of gathering is eliminated. you see how we can apply the same argument to everything? at least, with pvp on, we can fight for the right of farming the orchicalcum ore.
pvers grief too. although i expect the forums to be filled with posts of people crying after the game is released, i dont want to give anybody ideas. but ill say that mob dropping comes to mind since its probably the most obvious one.
When people have a choice to set the flag on or off, people will rather keep it off even if they are the kind of players who ask on forums for PvP servers.
This will transform the game into a PvE game because the majority of players are like so.
But will also make the game like the other MMOs, where developers chase revenue and make the game solo friendly and boring. The risk vs reward will be present in a much lower amount. That is not the objective of these developers.
But as an alternative to being able to turn on/off the PvP flag, there is another way too, where you turn it on by entering into some areas and turn it off when you leave. How do you feel about that?
I like that you are not like those PvE players who demand the right to have access to the entire map safely.
This game seems to go in this direction too. Pure PvP areas which will allow the corruption to be easier to be balanced toward offering more protection. Might end up this protection to be strong enough (like Steven said) to protect PvE players and at the same time the game to remain a PvP game.
The only thing they have to take care of is to not protect when the PvE player gets a very valuable resource/material, either by RNG or because he entered for 5 minutes into some area and grabbed fast a rare/epic resource and managed to leave that area.
If this player's path back to the chest is long, there should be danger associated with this trip. Just like if he would try to transport it from a node to another one.
I associate corruption with greed.
gaterers need some sort of protection, otherways its like in albion where big pvp clanes rule the server, set there own pvp rules and have own gatherers that have to deliver most there raw materials.
Or there is a NPC someone can summon to store things only temporarly (like 10 minutes or so).
So Even if its payed with real money - player could "sell" this service to others or they betrey you and run with it, or Ganker act as they would sell this service to steal your stuff but it was just a deception to lure them out and kill. So many possibilities
I liked how SWG, admittedly my first MMORPG, did PVP. Flagging by choice for PVP, or being foolish and wandering into the wrong territory etc. that would trigger it. Then having to make a journey to get unflagged. It added a different level of challenge and fun to the game.
Not sure how a PvEer can grief a PvPer, but if that is a thing I'm sure I could give you some suggestions to fix it.
Look, all I want is to be able to flag myself as "Not interested in PvP" and be given some tools to reduce the opportunity of being successfully ganked. All I'm proposing is:
--a PvPer/Bandit proximity alert
--consumables like an Invisibility potion or an item that makes me untrackable
--a means to purchase a guard/follower that protects me or 'my gathered items upon death'
It's a PvP environment. So it seems only fair that if I want to be left alone (to PvE freely), I have to go through the extra steps to attain that safety.
--If I have to respec my subclass to attain speed/stealth abilities for a while that's fine.
--If I have to purchase those kinds of consumables that's fine too.
--If I have to Flag myself at a Node as "Non-combative" (being only able to attack someone who attacked me first) that's totally okay with me.
"Prey should get away 9 times out of 10 from their Predator". A 10% success reflects real world statistics of Sharks, Lions and other predatory animals.
PvEers (PvP-prey) will make up most of your community. If you want your PvP-world to thrive, you drastically need to reduce the chances of a 'successful gank'. Because I've played in games where the Gankers succeeds 9/10 times... and in those games I've quit or transfered to a PvE realm. If AoC offers a PvE realm I'll just go there; but I haven't heard the Devs talking about making that available yet.
The only thing that comes to mind, is having some kind of gathering cart or companion, that, when full, could be sent back to town to empty. While the cart is being filled up it is vulnerable to the player losing some/all of the items. Once sent back to town, the materials then become deposited and safe.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
remember that the person who killed you will be way worse than you. honestly, i dont see gatherers being targetted too often, unless you are in an area where theres a specific resource that only spawns there and the big guilds want it, in which case, you can always join one of them
also consider that there will be other people in the vecinity trying to help if someone attacks you. friends, guildies, random people who will attack anybody who goes purple, and most people arent dumb enough to go corrupted with other players nearby
there are many ways you can grief someone, or even kill them without even manually attacking them. i dont wanna give people ideas, but im not going to suggest how to fix it, since it doesnt need fixing. the greatness of the current system allows me to deal with it however i see fit. something i would be unable to do if players could remove their pvp flag like they can in other games.
you can flag as "not interested in pvp" by just staying green and not attacking purples
also, if you get tools that allow you to avoid pvp, this goes against the design philosophy of risk vs reward. why should you get to do an activity with basically 0 risk while getting a high reward? low risk = low reward and high risk = high reward. you cant have high risk = low reward or no one will do it. you cant have low risk = high reward, because whats the point of having a risk then or the whole system? if 9/10 times you can avoid the pvper, then might as well remove the whole open world pvp system.
btw 9/10 times you can tell if someone will try to attack you even before they come close to you, when you learn to spot that, you will be able to run away for your life, no problem
also dont you think that invisibility potins can be used by a ganker to get right next to you and kill you?
also, there are multiple ways someone can kill you without oing purple or red...at least the current system gives you a chance to deal with that.
you can also go gather tier 1 materials at a low level zone with 0 risk of dying. and tbh most people will leave you alone unless you annoy them or they want the nodes you are after, or you go into a locked down area.
also, remember there are penalties for going red in aoc. i believe the game you were talking about was wow where you can kill the opposite faction with 0 penalties. this is a different game
If everyone can gather, gatherers can run normal builds for PvP and protect themselves.
The idea being to maintain the consequences of your actions , if you upset enough people then you get less options to buy stuff.
why punish their whole guild? why cant the gatherer call his guild for help in pvp ?_?
I say guild because individuals I think would be too tricky, but blacklisting people would be good too
Respawns and Ganking. In other MMORPG's I have played being spawn camped and ganked over and over was a thing. Not sure how Ashes will deal with this but a gatherer perhaps wont mind being ganked once but 20 times in a row for example when spawn camped. They will probably log and go and play something else.
However open world PvP turns out with of course ganking gatherers some balance needs to be sort. If no one has any incentive to gather as being ganked while gathering happens too often then no one will gather. This will also kill the game as its design requires these materials to be gathered by somebody willing to put in the time to gather.
If the balance is to only ever gather in large organised groups for protection then so be it just dont then tell people that solo play gathering is an option as most likely it wont be realistically.
yeah you can decide who you sell to. i thought you meant an in game functionality that did that
For example crafting mats for siege equipment or PVP potions.
If you are pk`ed the radius further increases for a period of time.
Subsequent pk`s well a little more.
I just don't understand why open world PvP is so popular. I'm a gatherer/crafter in just about every game I play. I love farming, I love gathering resources and will do it for days and days! The idea that I can spend hours lost in the wilderness gathering stuff only to have all that playtime wasted by someone who can gank me just because I happen to be a gatherer fills me with so much apprehension that I doubt I'll ever leave the cities. I hate PvP. I hate it so very much. I hate it so much that I don't play games that force PvP.
Just imagine it tho for real, you spend 4 hours running around in the wilderness exploring and gathering useful (or mundane if you prefer) materials. On your way back to your storage place, you are ganked by someone who logged on within the last 5 mins who is more interested in killing you and taking your stuff then running around for 4 hours gathering stuff. Now they have the stuff and they get to make the things and you have to go back to running around for 4 hours. How is this rewarding for the gatherer? How does this gameplay benefit the gatherer? How is this fun for the person getting ganked? Oh sure, the ganked player could go and try and PvP the ganker or beg for someone else to kill the ganker and get their stuff back. So now instead of gathering/crafting/selling or whatever the gatherer intended to do with their stuff, now they have to engage in a style of gameplay they enjoy less so they can recoup their losses? How is this fun? I don't think I'll ever understand it.
Why not have one server, just one, that doesn't allow PvP outside of caravan raids and political overthrowing (raids on capitals or towns or whatever the word is I'm looking for that means changing the node's leaders or type)?
I guess if there HAS to be PvP I would suggest that you don't have full loot drop unless you flag for it, or you have a bounty or corruption or whatever. You could also create a system like FFXIV where the person gathering has a different item/skill set and that set triggers a "safe" bag state where you don't drop YOUR resources but generated ones based on the items in your bag. That way the PvPer has fun and the gatherer hasn't wasted their entire gameplay time.
The only issue with this suggestion is botting... I don't have any meaningful suggestions for mitigating bots. There have been some other good suggestions here tho.
I'm adding a second post to this discussion because I really think this needs to be talked about more. Gatherers griefing Gatherers, what systems are in place to prevent it?
Maybe gathering nodes are personal? Like I can grab the flower but you can also grab the flower? Or I can mine the ore and you can also mine the ore? IIRC, there are rare and finite resources too right? I'm not sure how that can work with finite resources... Maybe it works on everything but the super rare stuff?
PvP specific loot created from PvP specific gathering? PvE specific loot created from PvE specific gathering?
I mean this a prime example where I would say “this game just isn’t for you”. The systems are built around pvp and removing it in any chase changes the game.
I think the only real solution is to give you a PvE server and call good but once again mechanics revolve around PvP.
PvP needs to exist with some risk/reward to combat botting as well as just adding a threat other then shitty AI into a game.
Well, I mean a system to allow me to blacklist people on the marketplace, so my stuff won't be sold to them, with option for the guild to do the same thing, I'm thinking in a guild war situation do you want to be supplying your enemy?
You could try to convince other guilds to not supply your enemy in return for some other service. It feels like it could drive positive social interaction and give a real impact for people's actions.
- Gatherers should not be punished for gathering, only for transport goods via ships or caravans. Non corrupt players should not droop ANY loot at all. Why is that? Well, its easy question to answer - its overall net negative for enjoyment of the playerbase. PK player, who saw a walking by gatherer and kill him, gets ego boost from the kill and some enjoyment from the loot. Gatherer who gets killed gets nothing but frustration and anger. Anger - because he lost possibly hours of work, and frustration because he is powerless to do anything about that, some guy just decided to kill him. And no, he could NOT fight back, because attacker only attacks if he is sure in his victory. Fight like this ALWAYS be rigged in favor of PKeer.
- As for caravans, well - caravans are quite large and can be armed. For example something like a scorpion on top of a wagon or a small cannon would greatly balance the battlefield. After all, as in the previous example, the players attacking the caravan, in most cases, will decide to attack only if they think they will win. Players attacking a caravan, will almost always outnumber the defenders of the caravan, because they know the number of defenders. And if they know the number of defenders, they can easily understand how many people need to guarantee a win. So caravans musts have something to defend themselves outside of number or level of the defenders.
P.S. Sorry for sloppy english, its not my first language.
hey remember that dropping your items on death isnt a 100% chance. also, remember that if mobs kill you, you might still drop items. so if you have been gathering for 4 hours and a mob kills you, then we must punish the mob? or give you invincibility so that the mob doesnt kill you?
afaik all we know about the drop chance is that if you are green you have a chance of dropping items. if you are purple, the chance drops by half and if you are red, the chance is 4 times higher and further increases the more corruption you have. so the chance of dropping items when you are green might as well be 2% or 5 or 1, or 10, we dont know, but i suspect it isnt that big. even at a 10% chance, if you gather 100 herbs, you just gonna drop 10...i highly doubt people are willing to go red and risk losing their gear for 10 herbs.
even if you have been gathering for 4 hours and you got 10,000 herbs, you would only drop 1000 if the chance is 10% 500 if its 5%, 200 if its 2%..not a big deal imo...just pick up a few more herbs than what you need to craft whatever you need to craft in case you die to a player or a monster, if you die, you still have whatever you need when you respawn, and if you dont die, then profit
So, what exactly the reason to existing of a system like that? If chance of a drooping loot on dead is low, there is no point to hunt gatherers. If chance of drooping loot on dead is high - its frustrating. So why not just drop this idea altogether? If game needs a sink for preventing inflation of prices for gatherable materials, just add something what needs maintenance. Its much better solution.