I played through Alpha 1 and I was really hoping you guys kept the hybrid target system after all the debate about it so glad you chose to keep it.
While watching the ranger gameplay on stream just now it makes me wish there was some type of incentive to play in action combat mode as I feel like it won't be utilized unless incentivized. I mean I prefer it as I enjoy the challenge, heck I'd even like to be able to take the aim assist off. And with that being said I wish there was a way to take the aim assist off and have actual damaged areas of the mob...headshots/bodyshots/etc.
Also, ofc I have to ask like everyone else, but when is alpha 2? lol.
Yea, I agree with this sentiment. I think that a cool solution would be to have hard locking limited in range, so that you get the benefit of the tab-target style in close quarters group combat, but that you have essentially unlimited range for unlocked pure action-based bow attacks. That way the ranger has this ability to really snipe things at a distance, pull mobs from further away than anyone else, etc. but the range is practically limited by the skill of player. You could of course have abilities that 'focus' or zoom in for these long range action shots, and the hawkeye could zoom in further than any sub-archetype. You could also add ballistics (arched arrow trajectories) and even be able to adjust the strength or speed of long distance shots so that you could lob them long range at a group in siege combat, for example. There are a lot of cool possibilities, but I think as of right now it's not clear what the benefit of action combat is.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
For me the most important feature is probably weapon differentiation. Steven highlighted this with the longbow/shortbow. However, judging from the video, it seems like these differences could be made more impactful (maybe different sound effect or stances). I had a hard time telling the difference between the bows at a glance.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I think the original ranger archetype is probably Aragorn from LotR. He was able to switch between swords and bows in combat. I would like to see the AoC ranger archetype be able to lean into or away from this tradition by utilizing the secondary archetypes when players choose their ranger class. For example, I would want the ranger/tank to emphasize swordplay and the ranger/rogue to emphasize archery. I am not really interested in ranger/tanks having high mobility, range, and defense.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Honestly, not really. I think balance is a huge issue for ranged attacks in MMOs. As mobility and auto lock increases, melee becomes almost meaningless. As these decrease you end up in FPS or looter shooter territory where most players just default to easier weapon types because they would play an FPS if that was their preference.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I was excited about the hybrid features with soft targeting assist and tab hard lock. I know I saw a ton of complaints that this was not hybrid or action enough, but I love it. It is exactly what I was hoping for.
I was a bit concerned that the ranger's kit seems a bit redundant to the bow, but this was probably selected on purpose for the ranged attack reveal (so take this concern with a grain of salt).
My larger concern is with balancing. As I mentioned above, I really like the AoC hybrid approach. However, the shortbow makes every other weapon seem like a waste of time. Full mobility, full range, no charge shot, and possible status effects - Yes Please! The wand had a similar feel in the Alpha 1 test. It was just easier to sit back and auto attack enemies when the base weapon is over-tuned.
Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.
Just my guess from basic ranged video and my time in Alpha 1, but I think with AoC current hybrid strategy, basic ranged weapon damage will need to be dialed down. Longbow should have a greater range or other benefit to make up for the lack of mobility. Finally, I think there should be a heavy ranged magic weapon type. Something that compares to the wand the way the longbow compares to the shortbow (I seem to remember staves are melee?)
Overall, I love the direction, and I look forward to the tweaks made throughout alpha 2. Keep up the great work!
This looks pretty good so far I like the 2 bow types. There does need to be penalties for long bow versus short of course. Higher skill allows to draw heavier bow resulting in further distance to target.
Long Bow: Movement restrictions, perhaps even climbing and or jumping impaired by small degree.
Slower reload, slightly higher player fatigue. Cannot shoot or aim very well while moving
or running.
Farther range on long bow perhaps different arrows.
Longer training time. More cost to purchase.
Harder to use when running and not able to use while mounted.
Bleed damage or DOT(damage over time) per shot perhaps stackable.
Mob slower movement after arrow hit.
Skilled at disarm mob by hitting arms or shoulder shot.
Slow mob with skilled shot at hitting legs.
Short Bow: See skills above. Also perhaps short bow can be used running or shooting while running
backward. Less accuracy penalty shooting while moving. Perhaps can be used while
mounted while Long Bow cannot. Shooting a fleeing shot. Can be used in cover or
crouched position.
Much faster recovery between shots. This puts more wear on bow strings, better strings
can be crafted.
A lot of people like the feel of action combat, and I agree it feels 100% better and more immersive in combat. However I feel that action combat does not work in MMORPG's, especially ones with large scale PvP like Ashes of Creation.
I think one of the most important things for an MMO is that it needs to be accessible. I think the best way to get the most players into your game is to make it easy to get in and play. Action combat presents a barrier to entry, in that you would actually need some skill or practice to hit targets. It would make players avoid classes that require aiming in favor of easier classes or melee, especially given how many movement / blink / dodge mechanics there are. There is a lot more to an MMO than just combat, and it really alienates all the players who are not combat focused. I agree action combat makes good players really shine, but you need merchants, traders, and combatants to fill out the game world.
Ashes of Creation's PvP is not balanced for 1v1 fights. I think it's fair to say the developers want epic large scale PvP battles, and action combat doesn't work well for large scale PvP. Action combat is great for 1v1 fights or small battles, but in 100 v 100 battles it gets really messy. There is no good way to aim into a crowd or choke point, and it will just lead to spamming abilities in the general vicinity. There is a good argument that tanks should be able to make a front line, and action combat would make it so you can't just tab target and ignore the tank. However I don't think combat will ever play out like this and instead players will just use jerky animation cancelling and spamming dodge rolls to get a clear shot, and it makes combat look awful and floaty.
I don't think action combat has ever really been done well on a large scale basis. Everyone has already pointed out ESO and New World, but even BDO is not the best (it's an aoe grind fest, very rarely are you actually taking skill shots). I don't think it is because action combat can't be done well, it's that action combat does not work well in an MMORPG. Dark Souls feels great because it's you (the hero) fighting against impossible odds by skillfully dodging death and killing giant enemies. When it's you and 100 other players who are all "the hero" rolling around dodging attacks and animation canceling it looks like a bad fight scene in a movie. Aiming the bow to take a few quick shots at charging enemies feels cool, but holding the cursor in one spot over a boss for 10 minutes is not fun and just enforces tunnel vision.
I think there are a lot of reasons mechanics from FPS games and MMORPGS don't always mix well. Ammo management makes sense in a shooter, but is just cumbersome and adds nothing in an MMO. Weapons having different stats and damage is great for item progression, but in an FPS everyone would meta game and just use the same weapon with the most damage. Combat in an MMORPG involves tanks, healers, support, and dps, so item stats and variety have a purpose. FPS are obviously first person, which is much more immersive and feels more in control than third person. But no one would ever play an MMO in first person, you lose so much information about your surroundings. Most FPS games don't have a boss with a ton of health (or if they do you fight the boss in multiple stages), because a bullet sponge feels bad, breaks immersion, and is not very high octane action. Like wise most MMOs don't have a lot of mobs you can kill in under a second because that makes combat all the same. I feel action combat is one of those things that does not fit into RPG games with a lot of people on the screen at once.
Edit: Reading through the comments, it seems like everyone against tab target and in favor of action combat has the same complaint. That (1) it makes range PvP trivial, (2) melee is at a huge disadvantage and can’t dodge or block, and (3) makes the range boring auto-aim.
1) Like I said above, MMO’s need to be accessible, and this includes making combat start on a level playing field. I think these people are just being PvP Andy’s: Everything needs to be a competition so others can see how big their epeen is. I think these kinds of people are ruining modern MMOs because the only reason they play a game with other people is so they can show off. There are plenty of other sword and bow action combat games (For Honor, Chivalry, Mount and Blade, Kingdom Come: Deliverance), so why are you playing an MMORPG and not one of these games?
2) Not sure why people are saying melee is screwed in PvP. Not sure if I missed something in a livestream, but I’m sure they will have dodge mechanics and a charge like ability to close the gap. If melee could just dodge ranged shots the game would be a rolling spam fest and melee could effectively be immune to range in PvE (see New World). Spamming dodge is not something that should be in an MMO, and latency issues mean hitboxes are terribly unreliable in an MMO.
3) If this were a single player or small scale PvP game I would agree. However this is a game with massive PvP combat and multiple fights going one at once. This game is not, and never was, balanced around 1v1 or small scale PvP. Action combat works poorly in large scale battles with higher latency, and doesn’t add anything to PvE (making it so you can miss a shot if you don’t stare directly at the boss is not interesting). This is an MMO not an FPS, combat is supposed to highlight teamwork not ganking 1v1 using meta builds. I think Narc puts it really well saying that the action combat crowd is a bunch of New World FPS andys. I think modern lootbox mentality makes people think they need constant dopamine hits, to such a degree that they need the rush of being able to miss a shot to feel anything.
•Hold/charge arrow shots? Big dislike. Never feels good when you can't optimise damage to time, release too early you waste damage, release too late(after it's fully charged) you waste time and damage.
Would much rather just have longer cast time or some kind of build up/combo system for bigger hits.
Regarding the basic shot:
I agree that the hold for more damage is probably not that great. What might be considered is "hold-to-crit" on the basic shot, where your crit chance increases...capped, of course.
The snipe charge makes sense. Maybe consider damage drop over distance too, making the long bow better for longer ranged combat. Have a minimum distance for use as well. Maybe for the short bow, there's little to no minimum distance.
I'm a sniper I'm a sniper!
(My thoughts here are utilizing a small amount of first hand experience with a compound bow, D & D, as well as other MMOs)
I like that the player has the choice between the two weapon types and that there are completely different abilities for each weapon type. The difference is there on paper but as I watched the gameplay it didn't Feel like there was a difference between the two.
Shortbow
You are sacrificing damage and accuracy for mobility and speed. This seemed on par with what I saw in the gameplay. The character is less focused on aiming and more on putting as many arrows in the target as quickly as possible. This is all very well represented.
Longbow
A character with a Long bow has sacrificed mobility so that they can hit targets Much further away. (This is the character that has taken the time to find a good vantage point high up to pick off targets in an area before they even reach it.) When you pull this bow up you want to feel like you've made that mobility sacrifice for a difference in range that you can See. The shots like 'Snipe' should also feel that power in exchange for movement as the character pulls the bow up, focuses, waits for that moment between breathes, and then lets loose the arrow.
Ideas that may help rectify the lack of distinction:
Slow down the longbow attacks
Make the power of each shot apparent and count. Taking down an enemy with a longbow should require fewer shots...a lot fewer.
Add a visual and sounds that allow the player to Feel their character taking aim and making these shots.
Small examples:
When you pull up a longbow there is a slight 'Focus' on the reticle as the ranger looks down the sight at their target.
As mentioned above the players breathing becomes apparent as they focus on it to make the shot.
I would like to point out that making these types of changes means that a player utilizing the weapons incorrectly will struggle. They will fail or struggle to hit long range targets with a shortbow and taking out close range targets with a longbow...well the punches to the face will hurt. On the flipside using them correctly and optimizing their potential would make their ranger very lethal.
Watched the video. One question I have, for you guys, is about the animation time between switching weapons.
Usually finding the edge in combat in PvP terms there is usually people finding that certain animations provide an advantage. Will hot swapping between any weapon have the same amount of time between animations? or will the animations be different for each weapon swap depending on size, race, mounted, un-mounted, flying, etc?
Ranged combat systems where there is an option for your basic shots to get a temporary power up in exchange for a wind up where you can't move, a bit like the snipe skill shown but for a while with normal attacks, feel incredibly satisfying to pull off. In general having the option to build a ranger to augment the basic attacks in various ways makes the marksman/sentinel/marksman class fantasy feel great. It might not be the best for a pure ranger, but having the option would be great.
I get wanting to make moving while attacking smooth, but having the choice of choosing the spot, you will not leave for 5< seconds but everyone outside of it is in major danger, is an amazing risk/reward feeling.
I don't like playing over mobile ranged classes so I can't comment on that. and putting timestamps on the Youtube uploads of monthly updates would help in scouring the videos for the specifics.
I really liked everything I saw about the Ranger and a question that goes around my head is if the Ashes of Creation Ranger will have pets to help him in combat. If so I would love to see one day how this mechanic will work in the game, for example if you need to feed it, if you can heal it in combat, if it will be a specialization like beastmaster or come by default in the main class of Ranger etc ...
If there's still a chance we can have one, unified way of playing, without having a mode switch button which potentially handicaps the player who prefers one mode over the other, then I hope the devs go that route.
Splitting up modes is just not the way in my opinion, that's not really "hybrid", but rather one or the other. I had hoped that it'd be more akin to some actions/abilities being actiony (melee attacks for example), while ranged single target or even cone attacks could simply be tab targetting because AoC is not a precise shooter like New World. And that's it, no actual mode switching because we'd only have one: hybrid.
We have WASD movement, which is action-y and not "click the ground to move your character over there".
We have dodges, which to my understanding move you in a direction relative to your camera - this is also action-y.
Now as for general combat gameplay, both perspectives are okay in my opinion, so going with either wouldn't be a miss, just choose one and work with it. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by having 2 options and having to maintain their viability. If we want free firing, then the "reticle" option might be better suited, but it could be a button, otherwise you'd shoot your hardlocked target even if your crosshair's not anywhere near them (though I'd say it should be a requirement to face the general direction of your target).
If the arrows are projectile based, an incentive to use action or free aim combat would be sniping at longer ranges which assumes that tab target will eventually de-lock at a certain distance, so this would be beneficial for castle sieges with archers on the walls or certain puzzles and mechanics require you to hit a button on the wall. perhaps longbows can have further projectile fall off than short bows which would help bring identity and domain to both
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I quite like what you are doing here. I had no plans to play a ranger build but will most definitely at minimum play test during alpha 2.
I like the blend of tab and action combat. This is a matter of preference and as such one shouldn't get any form of advantage over the other. I do agree with those that wish to have no soft or hard lock to be to turn that off. But it would also appear that those targets are required for some of the skills so I doubt this will be offered.
I also really like the talk about how we can switch from melee to range for skills and vice versa without difficulty. This is going to make solo gameplay feel extra sweet. Bow to start and finish them off up close.
I am super interested to see two builds. First I would like to see a classic EQ ranger build, perhaps with a healer class as the secondary. Second I am very interested in seeing the rogue class as a secondary as well.
Lastly, the decision to remove arrows gets a standing ovation. Those systems never made sense in the long run.
After watching the showcase a few times id like to leave the following thoughts.
Likes:
The direction is great, and i think it will appeal to the majority of people as Hybrid game play. This is important to note as there are Camps on both side of the spectrum that will have their dislikes. The tab target portion was well done seems very fluid and easy enough to pick out targets in a group. Switching to the more action based looked good and from what i can tell would play much like a hybrid style game would play imo. I like that the projectiles when coming into contact with something stop and i think that is a good direction to go as it gives the amazing environment the opportunity to be the "x" factor in both PVE and PVP. It will really make the game feel alive and immersive. The skills look as if they are what id think of a range class to have and I'm sure there will be some differences in all builds. Most of all again i think this direction is the way to be headed and is a good mix and a true or close to true hybrid combat set up. Also enjoyed that Steven and guests took time to explain things in the showcase more in detail rather then a " here lets show you" it was a "here lets show you and explain stuff also".
Dislikes:
I don't have any true dislikes as of yet that i can voice with the showcase as its intended feedback is around ranged combat and the RNG showcase.
UI feed back is i was not a fan of the player info, ei health and such being top left, but I'm guessing this is all part of the amazing UI customization players can do come A2 and launch.
Overall great direction and information as its compared to Melee showcase. The combat Direction still have me very hooked and my worries of certain types of combat creeping in as "the only action combat type" and "the only tab target type" are slowly fading and I'm very happy with where the team is headed.
The bow wielding ranger is one of my favourite fantasy archetypes, and this showcase really excited me about the prospect of playing one in Ashes.
The two things that I loved were the moving and jumping while shooting (the animation team has done a fantastic job of blending movement and the shooting animations), and the possibility of drawing back longer for more powerful shots.
One thing that I didn't necessarily dislike, but I was on the fence about was the mix of the sound effects for firing the bow. The sound effects themselves were high quality and satisfying, but the draw sound effect sometimes felt like it was disproportionately loud. I realise this is a matter of taste, but personally, the most satisfying part of using the bow is the 'thonk' of a direct hit, not the firing of the bow itself. So in my mind, the hit sound ought to be the most prominent part of the mix.
One thing I did not like was the tracing of the shot and the general idea of how loud the bow is. The reason why I didn't like this is because it seems like your position in a PVP scenario would immediately be given away after your first shot. I like the idea of being a part of a caravan raid where players can't locate an archer's position immediately, and therefore players are rewarded for finding themselves a sneaky position and setting up a well-planned ambush. It also suits the image I have of the ranger playstyle of being self-dependent by allowing for a more successful solo position. Where a clash of melee might be happening in one area, the ranger could be standing off on a flank laying down fire without drawing too much attention to themselves. While the tracing and volume is great for players who have no interest in PVP, I do hope this sneaky playstyle gets some love through maybe a feature of a rogue/ranger class mix, or through one of these unique weapon buffs that Steven mentioned.
Tbh I liked pretty much everything that I saw. The sound effects with each draw of the bow and when the arrows hit. The screen shake when drawing the bow and holding it. It all looked like there will be a weighted feel to combat. I love the animations for the abilities. Snipe had that powerful final blow type look to it.
I loved the way the "action" combat of things looked. Having soft lock like in ESO will bring ranged combat to an even playing field against it's melee counterparts. Since melee characters can't really miss do to being right in front of the enemy. I feel like that aspect puts ranged combat at a disadvantage in games like NW and BDO. Also, having the ability to switch selected targets was the icing on the cake. I can't express enough how much I loved this style.
The reason I put the quotes on it though is because it isn't actually action combat. It's a hybrid, like I thought yall were striving for. And you ABOSOLUTELY NAILED IT! But I don't see a reason in using it beside just having fun. I'm personally going to be using it during questing and overall gameplay, but in wars and sieges it's more advantages to just use tab
That's the only thing I'm not to sure about. The full tab target combat mode. With that in the game it's no point in using the hybrid action mode. My biggest concern is having ranged characters be able to still do damage while running around not even paying attention to what they're doing. In melee combat you have to be facing your target and in the hybrid mode you look to have to face the target too. But with tab systems like in WOW you don't even have to face your target. And with full range of mobility and skills like I saw in the showcase, I feel like ranged characters will have all the benefits while in tab mode. Being able to run full sprint away from melee characters while still doing 100% damage and not having to even look at them.
Ultimately, there's a few things to consider w Ranger update for me - (I am an action lover and giga tryhard nerd)
No matter what, as long as the soft-lock isn't sloppy as hell, 'action' cam is still gonna be superior to tab in specific chaotic situations where there are many spread out targets, or when you need to quickly change your FOV to deal with enemy burst movement or whatever. (Huge clumped groups are different ofc, and tab would be best there.)
However, if you can run full speed sideways while kiting, and can still use tab targetting while maintaining that movespeed, then tab is superior for kiting aside from when you need to actually aim specific CC abilities...if they do indeed go that route for Ranger's CC.
The reason is simple ---you save the time from having to constantly move your camera/character orientation. This is 'potentially' insanely broken and obnoxious. But its impossible to know without full kits and numbers. AND we do not really know what the FOV requirements are for tab. Steven isn't exactly an expert pilot, so its hard to learn anything about optimized potential from his streams.
So this possibly creates an environment where 'perfect' play would actually incorporate a keybind of swapping between the two modes on the fly based on each situation. Which in my mind is fairly cool. Initially I malded pretty hard at this reveal, but I'm gonna hold my judgements back until we see the actual CC abilities you have to aim. (edited)
After new insights and perspectives I changed my opinion about the hybrid combat Ashes is going for, positively. Here's my updated feedback on it.
I like the direction Ashes is going with the hybrid combat.
- I do hope there'll be damaging action/aimed abilities (skillshots), other than just non-damaging and AoE ones. Switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode. An idea for this is to also be able to fire the skillshots from the tab targeting camera mode in the form of a ground decal that moves with your cursor, similar to skillshots in League of Legends.
- I hope the difference between tab target combat and action combat will be balanced, this including ranged combat vs melee combat, but also the ranged basic attack tab target camera mode vs reticle camera mode. Normally this is done by giving the action combat a slight damage bonus.
- I also hope we're able to block/dodge shots even when they're locked on to with tab target.
- Miss chance (evasion & accuracy). There will be RNG involved regarding these stats, atleast for tab targeted combat. To not completely disregard these stats for action combat, this is an idea from @Noaani I agree with; the higher the discrepancy between one player or mob's accuracy stat and their target's evasion stat, the further away you need to dodge for it to miss, and/or the earlier you need to get your block up in order to successfully block it. This gives both players a reason to increase their stats (key in an MMO), but means the player with more dodge/block skill is in a position to not increase that stat as high, rely on their skill as a player a little more, and focus their gear selection in other areas.
Also, the birds not ending up moving when Steven seemed to build up to it
Sorry if it's a little out of topic, or rather too broad but just an idea to even the balance between Tab Camera and Action Camera :
Give the Action Camera mode a key to take a look behind us. It's something Tab Camera can easily do but would mean slowing down in Action Camera in the current state of its implementation.
Given how important the PvP (or even maybe some advanced PvE mechanics) is in this game, this might become an important gap between the two Camera mode if not addressed.
For the rest, i'm on the happy side, i can't wait to know all the details of projectile collisions and what fun and new situations will arise from this.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Creating its own style. They aren't melee attacks or spells, and should feel unique-- Attacking while moving typically is enough to differentiate a bow from a fireball, gameplay-feel wise. I don't want to feel like a melee DPS who stands away from the boss.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Ultimate scouts. Tracking, navigation, wilderness survival-- No one should be better at finding undiscovered POI's in the wild than a Ranger primary archetype. A "Witcher Sense" kind of tracking that can see how many people have passed through an area within a certain span of time, maybe. Possibly camoflauge/stealth capabilities on par with rogues while hiding in underbrush.
NOT machine gun fire! AoE attacks I can write off, but it looks exceedingly silly when a ranger/hunter archetype starts shooting like like they toggled their bow from semi-auto to full auto. See: Hunters in WoW using "Rapid Fire". Not much of a point in having no guns in the setting if we can shoot bows like them anyway!
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Classic WoW early hunter gameplay: Auto-shot GCD is longer than it actually takes to perform an auto-shot, allowing the player to side-step for ~1s between auto-shots, doing a rudimentary kind of kiting. At higher levels, timing instant-cast Shot-spells between auto-shots became a high bar of personal performance. Blurs the line between basic ranged weapon attacks and full rotations, but hopefully you get the picture. It depends on how much damage comes from basic attacks vs. rotational abilities.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Longbow and shortbow having different attack styles lends itself to building a gear/ability kit that can adapt to different situations on the fly, depending on whether I will be safe to attack from range, or if faster shots will benefit me more.
Also, the audio cue that a shot has gone off. Perfect! It's loud enough to be heard, but not so loud or long as to be invasive/obscuring other sounds. If I'm pulling off some movement stunts mid-combat, having that audio cue that I can move freely for a bit is super important.
I really like Inteprid's vision of the combat system and everything shown in the last livestream. Of the combat systems I’ve tried, the hybrid is my favorite so far. It’s great that you can have these differences based on your weapon choice. It gives more depth and identity to each weapon.
I love that you can even jump while shooting and also liked that aiming is not a must for the ranged attacks. I’ve had to aim in other mmorpgs before and it’s not relaxing at all. And I’m not sure if it was said, but I’d like to see the longbow with a bigger range than the shortbow.
Ranger abilities look great as well. I wonder if multiple Rangers attacking the same target with Quick Shot would still stack its damage, because leaving a debuff in the target makes me think so.
I love playing classes with bows, that's all I ever choose in MMOs. And I love pvp so most of this I am writing with the idea of PVP in mind.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
While the basic range attack is just that, basic, im hoping that nothing about the basic attack itself animation locks us and we can freely cancel it to go into another ability on the fly.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Actual range, the only recent MMOs i have played being BDO and Lost Ark, both bow classes do not have a solid amount of range in comparison to other classes. In the case of BDO, other classes have protected gap-closers that can put them in attack range of you, with some abilities simultaneously CCing you, others also outranging the ranger. In the case of Lost Ark, select classes actually outrange the ranger(sharpshooter) as well, making me feel less connected with the identity of my class and useless as a ranger.
Something I do NOT want to see is lack of protected abilities on ranger type classes, again, in the case of BDO a lot of rangers kit did not have any sort of frontal guard/superarmor/iframes and lots of players on the forums had a general idea that being ranged is enough protection, although with the existence of protected gap-closers this was nowhere near enough protection. Also lack of movement abilities, early BDO saw ranger with very little mobility and high stamina costs, with the exception of blasting gust animation canceling, ranger had no mobility and could be caught extremely easily, but the blasting gust spam saw very high stamina and mp costs. Another thing i would absolutely NOT want to see are projectile based attacks that require pinpoint accuracy like in New world, or like in first person shooters, I think BDO pulls off ranged combat very well with the ranger but one problem BDO has is that some classes are so fast they can actually outrun your projectiles or the server wont register some hits because of latency.
I think the perfect balance for ranger would be:
Protected abilities should have a shorter range and lower damage compared to unprotected skills, this way the ranger has a way to fight up close without being completely helpless. The lower damage is compensation for being protected. Either this or good movement abilities since gap-closers and CC will undoubtedly exist.
Abilities with increased range and damage on the ranger archetypes that focus more on dps, or just more ranged for the other ranger types in general, no protection on big damaging skills and not so much range that no one could hope to stop you. my biggest pet peeve is when i go to charge an ability and someone can look at me, cc me, and then go back to focusing on whoever they were fighting a second ago, it makes me feel less of a threat and more of a fly.
decent movement abilities, ranger is generally a nimble class that most MMOs make scale off of dexterity anyway.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I think bows in BDO feel good when playing ranger, but every game is different so if it ever feels so bad or clunky to the point I feel frustrated more than I am feeling enjoyment then i just wont play the class.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I can't say I have any concerns, it's alpha after all and anything can be changed at anytime. Something I was excited about was the idea that some abilities can be aimed and freecasted without relying on any target lock or anything of the sort, this could allow for some rangers to capitalize on position and finding the right angle to attack from to maximize their damage in a siege of sorts when dealing with a very large group of enemy players.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Being able to see when an arrow hits an object it should get stuck if its wood/meat and should plink off of metal walls and shields. The sounds of the bow release should be diffrent for longbow and short bow. Longbow should have a stretch then a woosh sound and short bow should have a small rubber band sound with a fast but quiet whistle sound on each launch of an arrow.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Wants:
1) Jumpbacks for distance. Perhaps a ground aoe skill so the enemy has to decide to follow through or go around. (airstrike )
2) Ability to place traps like pitfalls so players can plan around the battlefield.
3) a stealth ability like camoflauge for sniping. This might be a skill for archer/subclass rogues
4) When a ranger jumps they do a forward flip in the air depending on surface height they jump off of. Like jumping off a stack of five crates or a house top. We need parkour XD
5) a perk skill to not break ankles when jumping off high heights.
Do not wants:
1) Dont make All Damage the same regardless of distance to target. Make weapon swapping matter.
2) Don't make short bows smaller versions of the longbows. Too many games make shortbows just shrunk versions of longbows with the same name. We want floofs/cool effects/spikes/crystals. Not just Big bow gets all the spikes little bow gets 3-4 spikes and wood color. Boring!
3) Dont skip out of AoE arrow ability for longbow or Scatter shot for short bow. Each bow type needs unique skills to add identity and if the game has cleave for sword users bows/guns/magic needs AoEs.
4) Dont add ammo requirements. I did my time in WOW and wasted real life time going back to get ammo and spent way more money then my friends just to play my class. If you want unique ammo types make them enchants like fire/ice/poison bows. When you get an enchanted fire sword you dont have to rememeber to buy ammo for it. You just hit repair at the smithy.
5) Don't make ranger dependant on pets. Keep that to the ranger/summoner class for people to speck into.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Monster Hunter. Depending on weakpoints of monsters a bow/Bowgun user could do serious damage if they lined their attacks just right. Their ammo never runs out, but if they wanted special ammo they could mix it for more damage/poison/para/sleep. They had a special charge shot that opened them up to melee attacks but did big damage if they got the shot off. They had great dps but are squishy if hit by melee attacks.
Dragons Prophet. They had good soft lock mechanics for bow and depending on how long you held attack charged bow did big damage. Too bad the game was p2w had some good dragon designs.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
All in all, I'm happy to see how far combat has come and that, without cheats, steven dying to ganking 3 mobs will has consequences for the average player who doesnt run away. I was happy to see that armor design took the players race into account for the ears. Such a small detail really makes me happy! Please keep those details going! While I enjoyed the sound of the long bow the stretch cord sound is a little loud perhaps have weapon sound effects be a slider in sounds menu (I dont want to get rid of the sound entirely just fix it to preferance). Tarrogore Minotaur look amazing and have cool details and spell effects cant wait to see what other mobs we get. I don't know how you plan to do capes with hoods, but if its possible please make them toggle able so you can pull it up and down when you want and dont make them remove hair GW2 does that for some hats it bugs me. Being able to jump while attacking is important for long range users and makes you feel like you have more movement options. Small attacks should be mobile and large power attacks should have charges and/or long cooldowns. Airstrike repositioning is very cool looking gap extender/closer. What happens when you get struck in mid air? Is there I-frames protecting you or will someone elses archer be able to take advantage of you being airborn to deal damage? Will targets including basic mobs take into account player positions when shooting so back attacks deal more damage then front? I'm just curious to know how details Mob/players hit boxes can get with ot without armor, ect.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
The most important aspect to me is rhythm. Ranged combatants typically don't have to dodge as many effects as other characters, so its nice to have an extra layer to interact with in terms of rotation optimization. Trad's comments about the longbow's weapon skills possibly encouraging shifting between charged shots and quick shots or other timing variations was a great indicator for me.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Ranger is my all-time favorite fantasy archetype ever since I first read about Aragorn in LotR. For a lot of fantasy worlds this also includes ranged weapons like bows, but the most important part is the fantasy is an unmatched mastery of the wilds and its inhabitants. They can track down foes, and move quickly when off the beaten path. What I don't want to see is an archetype that is JUST about archery. There needs to be aspects of the archetype that focus on that "master tracker/survivalst" fantasy, as well. To frame it from a PvP PoV, a Ranger in my ideal scenario might not be the best at damage, but would be the best at picking off escaping opponents. In PvE, a ranger kills the escaping minions before they can trigger a mechanic.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Guild Wars 2 handles the "action mode" ranged combat very well. I see a lot of people say things along the lines of "Why would you choose action mode if tab target autoaims for you?" And the simple answer is that you don't really aim. Its more like pointing in the direction of the enemy and it finds the target. The mechanical skill to properly "aim" is trivial, and it excels in situations where there's more than two enemies spread out over an area.
I'd also like to make some points about why something like headshots would not fit in AoC from what I've seen. For one, there is no uniform body size for players in AoC. Just point to the dwarves for that example. In a situation where something like headshots exist dwarves could have a noticeable advantage due to being much shorter, and therefore a smaller region to aim for. Taking into account height when thinking about your character build just doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience. Headshots also create a problem in that it leads to a skill ceiling that is exclusive to one weapon type. Headshots work great when everyone's main weapon is a ranged weapon, but in a game like AoC where that isn't the case it leads to PvPers feeling forced to use bows to access this skill ceiling. At the end of the day its an MMORPG not an MMOFPS. The skill ceiling of an RPG traditionally comes from mastery over a given toolset and knowing when is best to apply a certain tool. Mechanical skill is involved, but it isn't the centerpiece unlike a FPS. I enjoy FPS games myself, but unless the vision for the game is everyone using a ranged weapon primarily its more trouble than its worth.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm interested to see how the implementation of projectile arrows that can be intercepted by cover interacts with different body proportions of PCs, similar to my headshot concerns mentioned above. Would this create a scenario where smaller characters become harder to hit because its easier for them to hide behind cover (or even other players)? If that were the case I'm not sure I would like the implications that has on character creation...
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I definitly liked the look and feel, but I must admit I was kinda hoping for a type of ranger/archer that didnt do that much jumping around. At least for the longbow I would have preferred more of a single-target-control-type-glasscannon(long charged but highly punishing shots, stun, push back, slow, but squishy).
If you kept the shortbow as in the video you'd also get a bigger span/difference by doing the longbow that way.
Also, it could be that the gameplay I'm hoping for would be with crossbows or something similar.
As an aside,the idea that you could choose to have a weapon that can be pre-charged at the price of charging being noticably slower would also have some utility.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
In a completely fictional game I once saw the concept where a class could create tools out of combat, which would then have to be consumed in order to activate skills. Allowing for the active creation (compared to the passive one used for quickshot) of charges for certain skills COULD create an interesting dynamic where the player can burst more dmg or have some extra skills after taking a break and focusing on restoring these things. Even more so if there are differently attuned charges to make for each skill. (Like picking fire or ice charges on such a skill would change what it actually does)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
While I do like the idea that it matters where on a mob I hit, my reaction speed is not up to par to make it an enjoyable thing in PVP. Could still be neat if some of the larger bosses where made up of multiple targets, and you could chose to destroy secondary targets like legs and that this will affect the rest of the battle. And if you destroy the head, you shouldnt need to destroy the arms after :P
As a whole I liked the target-system as shown, both TAB and the Action. I would even go so far as to say that a lower skill ceiling might yield a more even playing-field and thus a more competetive game.
Misc on Ammunition
I do understand why you wouldnt want to have arrows. It can be a hassle, and it only affects certain weapons/classes.
But I also very clearly see 2 missed opportunities.
One being that it could be fairly interesting if you actually had plenty of options, both in terms of how much dmg and of what dmgtype or additional effects, rather than just simple tiers. That way there is actually something to manage, and not just a number to keep topped up.
That said, this can probably be done as "charges" of some kind too on top of the quiver-concept. Say like you have a "small broadhead" quiver which gives you decent penetration and a little bit of bleed. And you have infinite of those. But say you use a "frost poison" on your quiver, so you also get 16 charges of "Frost poisoned small broadhead". Which either are used up first or can be woven in the rotation by a skill somehow.
The other being that with logistics being a thing in general in AoC I cant help myself from thinking that having to deal with logistics for ammunition/consumables for any large scale battle kinda makes sense.
To balance other classes with this and increase the logistical burden, you could add ammunition to a lot more classes. Such as differently attuned manastones for spells/summons, or throwing knifes/axes for any skills that needs a ranged "medium" for other classes. I also did see an image of some potential potion launchers which this would fit with too.
For further balance it might be possible to adjust durability loss and repair-cost for any weapon that doesnt use ammunition such that the "cost" of fighting ends up roughly the same anyway no matter what your preference is.
I'm not a Ranger player, but what I saw in the stream looked fine to me and I think you are heading in the right direction.
My only concern is that you don't make the Ranger into a 1-2 button wonder toon like so many other MMO's have done.
I keep seeing Aragorn mentioned about the Ranger, and yes, in Tolkien's world he was a Ranger as Tolkien deemed them to be, but you rarely saw Aragorn using a bow, he was more of a melee type, and that's fine. Do you plan on giving the Ranger class some up close and personal skills as well with a blade? Or are you going the classic DnD route and making them all ranged abilities?
Either way I'm very excited to get into Alpha2 and just test everything!!
I really enjoyed the showcase of the Ranger/ranged combat, though I can't fully get behind the direction. Will elaborate as best I can after answering the questions asked.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Distance, projectile flight speed, firing speed, line of sight, and precision.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
From a fantasy perspective, I think of a loner who is out in the wilderness, able to use the environment to their benefit, and possibly having a pet to assist. Be it setting traps, or hiding in plain sight with gear that allows camouflage, generally a ranger to me, would be masters of their surroundings.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Dragon's Dogma and Monster Hunter. Mainly because there wasn't auto-attacks, but every shot mattered or was a skill.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited by the aesthetic of the Ranger and loved the triple-shot type ability and the snipe ability, though I feel for both one should be stationary and actively/action combat targeting rather than tab. From a visual the leap-into-the-air-and-fire-down looked amazing, but to me it doesn't fit how I see a ranger; that being said, still a cool idea and can see how it could fit the AOC Ranger archetype. I also liked the idea of different types of bows, though perhaps the distinction can be more pronounced. For example, if you have a repeating crossbow you could run and fire for say 5 (arbitrary) bolts, then have a .5 sec root (arbitrary) to "reload", so there isn't just complete mobility. If you have a short bow, you can hit harder than a repeating crossbow, but have to aim more precisely, but can strafe while aiming. Then longbow, you can charge your attack, but have to be rooted to draw and fire.
What concerns me is the mobility of the class. I always felt it completely counter-intuitive for a ranged class to be hyper mobile. Distance is your friend and your biggest advantage, but giving a class that has its skills designed to be efficacious from a distance, the mobility to keep that distance in somewhat perpetuity seems imbalanced. I feel if the tab-target mode allows for players not to be looking in the direction they're firing, but still getting shots off, it detracts from the archetype or gives an unfair advantage. In my eyes, I think the best answer is to not have auto attacks from ranged weapons without some form of root or commitment to the shot(s) itself/themselves.
I understand this will be RPS when it comes to 1v1, but this leads me to assume if a ranged player gets the jump on a melee player, the odds are in their favour; I felt Steven's response to the mobility of the Ranger "just use a gap close or cc" somewhat dismissive or simply a reactionary statement that doesn't address the advantage. Perhaps I am jaded from getting kited by Hunters in wow, but my glory days as an elf in Lineage one really made me like the idea of rooted firing in combat.
I think either way, I will enjoy this class, but if I can do 90%-100% of my damage while running full tilt in any direction, that would be the primary reason to choose the class, to have that advantage, which I think is not a good decision.
I like the idea of using longbows and shortbows.
I also really like the animations. The speed of shooting and killing mobs is fast. But it can still be really fun.
The sound is also very nice.
A thought on Tab vs. Action: In town, when hiring your second class, could you choose (as an example). So choose between Tab, Soft and Action. Tab 100% Damage, Soft Target 200% and Action Compat 400% (or maybe 80% / 120% / 160% whatever balance makes sense). I think that fits into the risk vs. reward concept.
In addition, optional ammunition would be perfect. It only needs to do 3% to 8% more damage (depending on the manufacturer's skill). When you run out of arrows you can keep shooting without doing extra damage. I also love the idea of Craftet Special Munition. For example poisoned arrows, trip hazard arrows, cursed arrows, signal arrows. Again, one could only improve the damage or effect. So that all skills work without crafting. Just a few percent worse. I would love to see such a complex system. Thanks for the attention.
Im very happy they focused on tab targetting, the gameplay feel is much smoother! Keep up the good work ^^
And for long term it is much easier to balance!
What aspects of the basic ranged weapon attacks are important to you?
I love ranged weapon classes, but in many MMOs I've played, the basic range attacks rarely feel engaging. The sound of the attack, hit feedback, and animations go a long way to making it feel engaging. Also the ability to move plays a large role as well. From what I have seen everything is well on the way there. I will say that the move and shoot and shoot and jump animations struck me as a little stilted. But that could just be because... well.. alpha.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what do you want to see and not want to see?
I love Rangers. My first D&D character was a ranger. I love the aspect of the master tracker and would love to see this implemented in some way. I also enjoy the idea of creating a sniper. Slow firing but high damage. I would love to be able to build a ranger in this way.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Very different game style. But I love the way shooting feels in Destiny 2. The thing I could see translate from that into this is movement. Being able to move in unique and exciting ways while shooting at something (either to get close for shotgun-like attacks or far for sniping attacks) really helps me feel engaged during combat. I also really liked how this felt in Archeage. The ability to do flips didn't do anything... but dang is it fun.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
1. Player collision. I know there will be a lot of collision in this game so please do NOT make it so friendly players can block your projectiles. New World tried that and it was universally hated. Also, I am worried that with a projectile-based system and the action camera, people will get between you and what you are shooting at to proc PVP or try to get you to kill them and gain corruption. I would like to know how the ranged system will work with friendly players and random players out in the world
2. Weapon variety. I am hoping that there is quite a bit more difference between the different types of bows/crossbows than was shown. It looked like the short bow was just the better option due to its dps output. I want each weapon to feel very different. Long bow should do much better damage and shortbow should shoot way faster.
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The hybrid system leans more to a tab target style. Have you guys considered for action mode to allow you to shoot targets farther away then what tab could reach? At the current point there is seems to be no reason to use action mode. The archery in the apocolypse gamemode was so fun and I would like to point that to a reference on how it can really enhance the user experience.
Comments
Yea, I agree with this sentiment. I think that a cool solution would be to have hard locking limited in range, so that you get the benefit of the tab-target style in close quarters group combat, but that you have essentially unlimited range for unlocked pure action-based bow attacks. That way the ranger has this ability to really snipe things at a distance, pull mobs from further away than anyone else, etc. but the range is practically limited by the skill of player. You could of course have abilities that 'focus' or zoom in for these long range action shots, and the hawkeye could zoom in further than any sub-archetype. You could also add ballistics (arched arrow trajectories) and even be able to adjust the strength or speed of long distance shots so that you could lob them long range at a group in siege combat, for example. There are a lot of cool possibilities, but I think as of right now it's not clear what the benefit of action combat is.
For me the most important feature is probably weapon differentiation. Steven highlighted this with the longbow/shortbow. However, judging from the video, it seems like these differences could be made more impactful (maybe different sound effect or stances). I had a hard time telling the difference between the bows at a glance.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I think the original ranger archetype is probably Aragorn from LotR. He was able to switch between swords and bows in combat. I would like to see the AoC ranger archetype be able to lean into or away from this tradition by utilizing the secondary archetypes when players choose their ranger class. For example, I would want the ranger/tank to emphasize swordplay and the ranger/rogue to emphasize archery. I am not really interested in ranger/tanks having high mobility, range, and defense.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Honestly, not really. I think balance is a huge issue for ranged attacks in MMOs. As mobility and auto lock increases, melee becomes almost meaningless. As these decrease you end up in FPS or looter shooter territory where most players just default to easier weapon types because they would play an FPS if that was their preference.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I was excited about the hybrid features with soft targeting assist and tab hard lock. I know I saw a ton of complaints that this was not hybrid or action enough, but I love it. It is exactly what I was hoping for.
I was a bit concerned that the ranger's kit seems a bit redundant to the bow, but this was probably selected on purpose for the ranged attack reveal (so take this concern with a grain of salt).
My larger concern is with balancing. As I mentioned above, I really like the AoC hybrid approach. However, the shortbow makes every other weapon seem like a waste of time. Full mobility, full range, no charge shot, and possible status effects - Yes Please! The wand had a similar feel in the Alpha 1 test. It was just easier to sit back and auto attack enemies when the base weapon is over-tuned.
Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.
Just my guess from basic ranged video and my time in Alpha 1, but I think with AoC current hybrid strategy, basic ranged weapon damage will need to be dialed down. Longbow should have a greater range or other benefit to make up for the lack of mobility. Finally, I think there should be a heavy ranged magic weapon type. Something that compares to the wand the way the longbow compares to the shortbow (I seem to remember staves are melee?)
Overall, I love the direction, and I look forward to the tweaks made throughout alpha 2. Keep up the great work!
Long Bow: Movement restrictions, perhaps even climbing and or jumping impaired by small degree.
Slower reload, slightly higher player fatigue. Cannot shoot or aim very well while moving
or running.
Farther range on long bow perhaps different arrows.
Longer training time. More cost to purchase.
Harder to use when running and not able to use while mounted.
Bleed damage or DOT(damage over time) per shot perhaps stackable.
Mob slower movement after arrow hit.
Skilled at disarm mob by hitting arms or shoulder shot.
Slow mob with skilled shot at hitting legs.
Short Bow: See skills above. Also perhaps short bow can be used running or shooting while running
backward. Less accuracy penalty shooting while moving. Perhaps can be used while
mounted while Long Bow cannot. Shooting a fleeing shot. Can be used in cover or
crouched position.
Much faster recovery between shots. This puts more wear on bow strings, better strings
can be crafted.
I think one of the most important things for an MMO is that it needs to be accessible. I think the best way to get the most players into your game is to make it easy to get in and play. Action combat presents a barrier to entry, in that you would actually need some skill or practice to hit targets. It would make players avoid classes that require aiming in favor of easier classes or melee, especially given how many movement / blink / dodge mechanics there are. There is a lot more to an MMO than just combat, and it really alienates all the players who are not combat focused. I agree action combat makes good players really shine, but you need merchants, traders, and combatants to fill out the game world.
Ashes of Creation's PvP is not balanced for 1v1 fights. I think it's fair to say the developers want epic large scale PvP battles, and action combat doesn't work well for large scale PvP. Action combat is great for 1v1 fights or small battles, but in 100 v 100 battles it gets really messy. There is no good way to aim into a crowd or choke point, and it will just lead to spamming abilities in the general vicinity. There is a good argument that tanks should be able to make a front line, and action combat would make it so you can't just tab target and ignore the tank. However I don't think combat will ever play out like this and instead players will just use jerky animation cancelling and spamming dodge rolls to get a clear shot, and it makes combat look awful and floaty.
I don't think action combat has ever really been done well on a large scale basis. Everyone has already pointed out ESO and New World, but even BDO is not the best (it's an aoe grind fest, very rarely are you actually taking skill shots). I don't think it is because action combat can't be done well, it's that action combat does not work well in an MMORPG. Dark Souls feels great because it's you (the hero) fighting against impossible odds by skillfully dodging death and killing giant enemies. When it's you and 100 other players who are all "the hero" rolling around dodging attacks and animation canceling it looks like a bad fight scene in a movie. Aiming the bow to take a few quick shots at charging enemies feels cool, but holding the cursor in one spot over a boss for 10 minutes is not fun and just enforces tunnel vision.
I think there are a lot of reasons mechanics from FPS games and MMORPGS don't always mix well. Ammo management makes sense in a shooter, but is just cumbersome and adds nothing in an MMO. Weapons having different stats and damage is great for item progression, but in an FPS everyone would meta game and just use the same weapon with the most damage. Combat in an MMORPG involves tanks, healers, support, and dps, so item stats and variety have a purpose. FPS are obviously first person, which is much more immersive and feels more in control than third person. But no one would ever play an MMO in first person, you lose so much information about your surroundings. Most FPS games don't have a boss with a ton of health (or if they do you fight the boss in multiple stages), because a bullet sponge feels bad, breaks immersion, and is not very high octane action. Like wise most MMOs don't have a lot of mobs you can kill in under a second because that makes combat all the same. I feel action combat is one of those things that does not fit into RPG games with a lot of people on the screen at once.
Edit: Reading through the comments, it seems like everyone against tab target and in favor of action combat has the same complaint. That (1) it makes range PvP trivial, (2) melee is at a huge disadvantage and can’t dodge or block, and (3) makes the range boring auto-aim.
1) Like I said above, MMO’s need to be accessible, and this includes making combat start on a level playing field. I think these people are just being PvP Andy’s: Everything needs to be a competition so others can see how big their epeen is. I think these kinds of people are ruining modern MMOs because the only reason they play a game with other people is so they can show off. There are plenty of other sword and bow action combat games (For Honor, Chivalry, Mount and Blade, Kingdom Come: Deliverance), so why are you playing an MMORPG and not one of these games?
2) Not sure why people are saying melee is screwed in PvP. Not sure if I missed something in a livestream, but I’m sure they will have dodge mechanics and a charge like ability to close the gap. If melee could just dodge ranged shots the game would be a rolling spam fest and melee could effectively be immune to range in PvE (see New World). Spamming dodge is not something that should be in an MMO, and latency issues mean hitboxes are terribly unreliable in an MMO.
3) If this were a single player or small scale PvP game I would agree. However this is a game with massive PvP combat and multiple fights going one at once. This game is not, and never was, balanced around 1v1 or small scale PvP. Action combat works poorly in large scale battles with higher latency, and doesn’t add anything to PvE (making it so you can miss a shot if you don’t stare directly at the boss is not interesting). This is an MMO not an FPS, combat is supposed to highlight teamwork not ganking 1v1 using meta builds. I think Narc puts it really well saying that the action combat crowd is a bunch of New World FPS andys. I think modern lootbox mentality makes people think they need constant dopamine hits, to such a degree that they need the rush of being able to miss a shot to feel anything.
Regarding the basic shot:
I agree that the hold for more damage is probably not that great. What might be considered is "hold-to-crit" on the basic shot, where your crit chance increases...capped, of course.
The snipe charge makes sense. Maybe consider damage drop over distance too, making the long bow better for longer ranged combat. Have a minimum distance for use as well. Maybe for the short bow, there's little to no minimum distance.
(My thoughts here are utilizing a small amount of first hand experience with a compound bow, D & D, as well as other MMOs)
I like that the player has the choice between the two weapon types and that there are completely different abilities for each weapon type. The difference is there on paper but as I watched the gameplay it didn't Feel like there was a difference between the two.
Shortbow
You are sacrificing damage and accuracy for mobility and speed. This seemed on par with what I saw in the gameplay. The character is less focused on aiming and more on putting as many arrows in the target as quickly as possible. This is all very well represented.
Longbow
A character with a Long bow has sacrificed mobility so that they can hit targets Much further away. (This is the character that has taken the time to find a good vantage point high up to pick off targets in an area before they even reach it.) When you pull this bow up you want to feel like you've made that mobility sacrifice for a difference in range that you can See. The shots like 'Snipe' should also feel that power in exchange for movement as the character pulls the bow up, focuses, waits for that moment between breathes, and then lets loose the arrow.
Ideas that may help rectify the lack of distinction:
Slow down the longbow attacks
Make the power of each shot apparent and count. Taking down an enemy with a longbow should require fewer shots...a lot fewer.
Add a visual and sounds that allow the player to Feel their character taking aim and making these shots.
Small examples:
When you pull up a longbow there is a slight 'Focus' on the reticle as the ranger looks down the sight at their target.
As mentioned above the players breathing becomes apparent as they focus on it to make the shot.
I would like to point out that making these types of changes means that a player utilizing the weapons incorrectly will struggle. They will fail or struggle to hit long range targets with a shortbow and taking out close range targets with a longbow...well the punches to the face will hurt. On the flipside using them correctly and optimizing their potential would make their ranger very lethal.
Watched the video. One question I have, for you guys, is about the animation time between switching weapons.
Usually finding the edge in combat in PvP terms there is usually people finding that certain animations provide an advantage. Will hot swapping between any weapon have the same amount of time between animations? or will the animations be different for each weapon swap depending on size, race, mounted, un-mounted, flying, etc?
I get wanting to make moving while attacking smooth, but having the choice of choosing the spot, you will not leave for 5< seconds but everyone outside of it is in major danger, is an amazing risk/reward feeling.
I don't like playing over mobile ranged classes so I can't comment on that. and putting timestamps on the Youtube uploads of monthly updates would help in scouring the videos for the specifics.
Splitting up modes is just not the way in my opinion, that's not really "hybrid", but rather one or the other. I had hoped that it'd be more akin to some actions/abilities being actiony (melee attacks for example), while ranged single target or even cone attacks could simply be tab targetting because AoC is not a precise shooter like New World. And that's it, no actual mode switching because we'd only have one: hybrid.
We have WASD movement, which is action-y and not "click the ground to move your character over there".
We have dodges, which to my understanding move you in a direction relative to your camera - this is also action-y.
Now as for general combat gameplay, both perspectives are okay in my opinion, so going with either wouldn't be a miss, just choose one and work with it. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by having 2 options and having to maintain their viability. If we want free firing, then the "reticle" option might be better suited, but it could be a button, otherwise you'd shoot your hardlocked target even if your crosshair's not anywhere near them (though I'd say it should be a requirement to face the general direction of your target).
I like the blend of tab and action combat. This is a matter of preference and as such one shouldn't get any form of advantage over the other. I do agree with those that wish to have no soft or hard lock to be to turn that off. But it would also appear that those targets are required for some of the skills so I doubt this will be offered.
I also really like the talk about how we can switch from melee to range for skills and vice versa without difficulty. This is going to make solo gameplay feel extra sweet. Bow to start and finish them off up close.
I am super interested to see two builds. First I would like to see a classic EQ ranger build, perhaps with a healer class as the secondary. Second I am very interested in seeing the rogue class as a secondary as well.
Lastly, the decision to remove arrows gets a standing ovation. Those systems never made sense in the long run.
Likes:
The direction is great, and i think it will appeal to the majority of people as Hybrid game play. This is important to note as there are Camps on both side of the spectrum that will have their dislikes. The tab target portion was well done seems very fluid and easy enough to pick out targets in a group. Switching to the more action based looked good and from what i can tell would play much like a hybrid style game would play imo. I like that the projectiles when coming into contact with something stop and i think that is a good direction to go as it gives the amazing environment the opportunity to be the "x" factor in both PVE and PVP. It will really make the game feel alive and immersive. The skills look as if they are what id think of a range class to have and I'm sure there will be some differences in all builds. Most of all again i think this direction is the way to be headed and is a good mix and a true or close to true hybrid combat set up. Also enjoyed that Steven and guests took time to explain things in the showcase more in detail rather then a " here lets show you" it was a "here lets show you and explain stuff also".
Dislikes:
I don't have any true dislikes as of yet that i can voice with the showcase as its intended feedback is around ranged combat and the RNG showcase.
UI feed back is i was not a fan of the player info, ei health and such being top left, but I'm guessing this is all part of the amazing UI customization players can do come A2 and launch.
Overall great direction and information as its compared to Melee showcase. The combat Direction still have me very hooked and my worries of certain types of combat creeping in as "the only action combat type" and "the only tab target type" are slowly fading and I'm very happy with where the team is headed.
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The two things that I loved were the moving and jumping while shooting (the animation team has done a fantastic job of blending movement and the shooting animations), and the possibility of drawing back longer for more powerful shots.
One thing that I didn't necessarily dislike, but I was on the fence about was the mix of the sound effects for firing the bow. The sound effects themselves were high quality and satisfying, but the draw sound effect sometimes felt like it was disproportionately loud. I realise this is a matter of taste, but personally, the most satisfying part of using the bow is the 'thonk' of a direct hit, not the firing of the bow itself. So in my mind, the hit sound ought to be the most prominent part of the mix.
One thing I did not like was the tracing of the shot and the general idea of how loud the bow is. The reason why I didn't like this is because it seems like your position in a PVP scenario would immediately be given away after your first shot. I like the idea of being a part of a caravan raid where players can't locate an archer's position immediately, and therefore players are rewarded for finding themselves a sneaky position and setting up a well-planned ambush. It also suits the image I have of the ranger playstyle of being self-dependent by allowing for a more successful solo position. Where a clash of melee might be happening in one area, the ranger could be standing off on a flank laying down fire without drawing too much attention to themselves. While the tracing and volume is great for players who have no interest in PVP, I do hope this sneaky playstyle gets some love through maybe a feature of a rogue/ranger class mix, or through one of these unique weapon buffs that Steven mentioned.
I loved the way the "action" combat of things looked. Having soft lock like in ESO will bring ranged combat to an even playing field against it's melee counterparts. Since melee characters can't really miss do to being right in front of the enemy. I feel like that aspect puts ranged combat at a disadvantage in games like NW and BDO. Also, having the ability to switch selected targets was the icing on the cake. I can't express enough how much I loved this style.
The reason I put the quotes on it though is because it isn't actually action combat. It's a hybrid, like I thought yall were striving for. And you ABOSOLUTELY NAILED IT! But I don't see a reason in using it beside just having fun. I'm personally going to be using it during questing and overall gameplay, but in wars and sieges it's more advantages to just use tab
That's the only thing I'm not to sure about. The full tab target combat mode. With that in the game it's no point in using the hybrid action mode. My biggest concern is having ranged characters be able to still do damage while running around not even paying attention to what they're doing. In melee combat you have to be facing your target and in the hybrid mode you look to have to face the target too. But with tab systems like in WOW you don't even have to face your target. And with full range of mobility and skills like I saw in the showcase, I feel like ranged characters will have all the benefits while in tab mode. Being able to run full sprint away from melee characters while still doing 100% damage and not having to even look at them.
No matter what, as long as the soft-lock isn't sloppy as hell, 'action' cam is still gonna be superior to tab in specific chaotic situations where there are many spread out targets, or when you need to quickly change your FOV to deal with enemy burst movement or whatever. (Huge clumped groups are different ofc, and tab would be best there.)
However, if you can run full speed sideways while kiting, and can still use tab targetting while maintaining that movespeed, then tab is superior for kiting aside from when you need to actually aim specific CC abilities...if they do indeed go that route for Ranger's CC.
The reason is simple ---you save the time from having to constantly move your camera/character orientation. This is 'potentially' insanely broken and obnoxious. But its impossible to know without full kits and numbers. AND we do not really know what the FOV requirements are for tab. Steven isn't exactly an expert pilot, so its hard to learn anything about optimized potential from his streams.
So this possibly creates an environment where 'perfect' play would actually incorporate a keybind of swapping between the two modes on the fly based on each situation. Which in my mind is fairly cool. Initially I malded pretty hard at this reveal, but I'm gonna hold my judgements back until we see the actual CC abilities you have to aim. (edited)
I like the direction Ashes is going with the hybrid combat.
- I do hope there'll be damaging action/aimed abilities (skillshots), other than just non-damaging and AoE ones. Switching camera modes every few seconds could be tedious though, assuming your screen isn't (always) centered on your main target when you're in the tab targeting camera mode. An idea for this is to also be able to fire the skillshots from the tab targeting camera mode in the form of a ground decal that moves with your cursor, similar to skillshots in League of Legends.
- I hope the difference between tab target combat and action combat will be balanced, this including ranged combat vs melee combat, but also the ranged basic attack tab target camera mode vs reticle camera mode. Normally this is done by giving the action combat a slight damage bonus.
- I also hope we're able to block/dodge shots even when they're locked on to with tab target.
- Miss chance (evasion & accuracy). There will be RNG involved regarding these stats, atleast for tab targeted combat. To not completely disregard these stats for action combat, this is an idea from @Noaani I agree with; the higher the discrepancy between one player or mob's accuracy stat and their target's evasion stat, the further away you need to dodge for it to miss, and/or the earlier you need to get your block up in order to successfully block it. This gives both players a reason to increase their stats (key in an MMO), but means the player with more dodge/block skill is in a position to not increase that stat as high, rely on their skill as a player a little more, and focus their gear selection in other areas.
Also, the birds not ending up moving when Steven seemed to build up to it
Give the Action Camera mode a key to take a look behind us. It's something Tab Camera can easily do but would mean slowing down in Action Camera in the current state of its implementation.
Given how important the PvP (or even maybe some advanced PvE mechanics) is in this game, this might become an important gap between the two Camera mode if not addressed.
For the rest, i'm on the happy side, i can't wait to know all the details of projectile collisions and what fun and new situations will arise from this.
Creating its own style. They aren't melee attacks or spells, and should feel unique-- Attacking while moving typically is enough to differentiate a bow from a fireball, gameplay-feel wise. I don't want to feel like a melee DPS who stands away from the boss.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Ultimate scouts. Tracking, navigation, wilderness survival-- No one should be better at finding undiscovered POI's in the wild than a Ranger primary archetype. A "Witcher Sense" kind of tracking that can see how many people have passed through an area within a certain span of time, maybe. Possibly camoflauge/stealth capabilities on par with rogues while hiding in underbrush.
NOT machine gun fire! AoE attacks I can write off, but it looks exceedingly silly when a ranger/hunter archetype starts shooting like like they toggled their bow from semi-auto to full auto. See: Hunters in WoW using "Rapid Fire". Not much of a point in having no guns in the setting if we can shoot bows like them anyway!
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Classic WoW early hunter gameplay: Auto-shot GCD is longer than it actually takes to perform an auto-shot, allowing the player to side-step for ~1s between auto-shots, doing a rudimentary kind of kiting. At higher levels, timing instant-cast Shot-spells between auto-shots became a high bar of personal performance. Blurs the line between basic ranged weapon attacks and full rotations, but hopefully you get the picture. It depends on how much damage comes from basic attacks vs. rotational abilities.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Longbow and shortbow having different attack styles lends itself to building a gear/ability kit that can adapt to different situations on the fly, depending on whether I will be safe to attack from range, or if faster shots will benefit me more.
Also, the audio cue that a shot has gone off. Perfect! It's loud enough to be heard, but not so loud or long as to be invasive/obscuring other sounds. If I'm pulling off some movement stunts mid-combat, having that audio cue that I can move freely for a bit is super important.
I love that you can even jump while shooting and also liked that aiming is not a must for the ranged attacks. I’ve had to aim in other mmorpgs before and it’s not relaxing at all. And I’m not sure if it was said, but I’d like to see the longbow with a bigger range than the shortbow.
Ranger abilities look great as well. I wonder if multiple Rangers attacking the same target with Quick Shot would still stack its damage, because leaving a debuff in the target makes me think so.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
While the basic range attack is just that, basic, im hoping that nothing about the basic attack itself animation locks us and we can freely cancel it to go into another ability on the fly.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Actual range, the only recent MMOs i have played being BDO and Lost Ark, both bow classes do not have a solid amount of range in comparison to other classes. In the case of BDO, other classes have protected gap-closers that can put them in attack range of you, with some abilities simultaneously CCing you, others also outranging the ranger. In the case of Lost Ark, select classes actually outrange the ranger(sharpshooter) as well, making me feel less connected with the identity of my class and useless as a ranger.
Something I do NOT want to see is lack of protected abilities on ranger type classes, again, in the case of BDO a lot of rangers kit did not have any sort of frontal guard/superarmor/iframes and lots of players on the forums had a general idea that being ranged is enough protection, although with the existence of protected gap-closers this was nowhere near enough protection. Also lack of movement abilities, early BDO saw ranger with very little mobility and high stamina costs, with the exception of blasting gust animation canceling, ranger had no mobility and could be caught extremely easily, but the blasting gust spam saw very high stamina and mp costs. Another thing i would absolutely NOT want to see are projectile based attacks that require pinpoint accuracy like in New world, or like in first person shooters, I think BDO pulls off ranged combat very well with the ranger but one problem BDO has is that some classes are so fast they can actually outrun your projectiles or the server wont register some hits because of latency.
I think the perfect balance for ranger would be:
Protected abilities should have a shorter range and lower damage compared to unprotected skills, this way the ranger has a way to fight up close without being completely helpless. The lower damage is compensation for being protected. Either this or good movement abilities since gap-closers and CC will undoubtedly exist.
Abilities with increased range and damage on the ranger archetypes that focus more on dps, or just more ranged for the other ranger types in general, no protection on big damaging skills and not so much range that no one could hope to stop you. my biggest pet peeve is when i go to charge an ability and someone can look at me, cc me, and then go back to focusing on whoever they were fighting a second ago, it makes me feel less of a threat and more of a fly.
decent movement abilities, ranger is generally a nimble class that most MMOs make scale off of dexterity anyway.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I think bows in BDO feel good when playing ranger, but every game is different so if it ever feels so bad or clunky to the point I feel frustrated more than I am feeling enjoyment then i just wont play the class.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I can't say I have any concerns, it's alpha after all and anything can be changed at anytime. Something I was excited about was the idea that some abilities can be aimed and freecasted without relying on any target lock or anything of the sort, this could allow for some rangers to capitalize on position and finding the right angle to attack from to maximize their damage in a siege of sorts when dealing with a very large group of enemy players.
Being able to see when an arrow hits an object it should get stuck if its wood/meat and should plink off of metal walls and shields. The sounds of the bow release should be diffrent for longbow and short bow. Longbow should have a stretch then a woosh sound and short bow should have a small rubber band sound with a fast but quiet whistle sound on each launch of an arrow.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Wants:
1) Jumpbacks for distance. Perhaps a ground aoe skill so the enemy has to decide to follow through or go around. (airstrike
2) Ability to place traps like pitfalls so players can plan around the battlefield.
3) a stealth ability like camoflauge for sniping. This might be a skill for archer/subclass rogues
4) When a ranger jumps they do a forward flip in the air depending on surface height they jump off of. Like jumping off a stack of five crates or a house top. We need parkour XD
5) a perk skill to not break ankles when jumping off high heights.
Do not wants:
1) Dont make All Damage the same regardless of distance to target. Make weapon swapping matter.
2) Don't make short bows smaller versions of the longbows. Too many games make shortbows just shrunk versions of longbows with the same name. We want floofs/cool effects/spikes/crystals. Not just Big bow gets all the spikes little bow gets 3-4 spikes and wood color. Boring!
3) Dont skip out of AoE arrow ability for longbow or Scatter shot for short bow. Each bow type needs unique skills to add identity and if the game has cleave for sword users bows/guns/magic needs AoEs.
4) Dont add ammo requirements. I did my time in WOW and wasted real life time going back to get ammo and spent way more money then my friends just to play my class. If you want unique ammo types make them enchants like fire/ice/poison bows. When you get an enchanted fire sword you dont have to rememeber to buy ammo for it. You just hit repair at the smithy.
5) Don't make ranger dependant on pets. Keep that to the ranger/summoner class for people to speck into.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Monster Hunter. Depending on weakpoints of monsters a bow/Bowgun user could do serious damage if they lined their attacks just right. Their ammo never runs out, but if they wanted special ammo they could mix it for more damage/poison/para/sleep. They had a special charge shot that opened them up to melee attacks but did big damage if they got the shot off. They had great dps but are squishy if hit by melee attacks.
Dragons Prophet. They had good soft lock mechanics for bow and depending on how long you held attack charged bow did big damage. Too bad the game was p2w had some good dragon designs.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
All in all, I'm happy to see how far combat has come and that, without cheats, steven dying to ganking 3 mobs will has consequences for the average player who doesnt run away. I was happy to see that armor design took the players race into account for the ears. Such a small detail really makes me happy! Please keep those details going! While I enjoyed the sound of the long bow the stretch cord sound is a little loud perhaps have weapon sound effects be a slider in sounds menu (I dont want to get rid of the sound entirely just fix it to preferance). Tarrogore Minotaur look amazing and have cool details and spell effects cant wait to see what other mobs we get. I don't know how you plan to do capes with hoods, but if its possible please make them toggle able so you can pull it up and down when you want and dont make them remove hair GW2 does that for some hats it bugs me. Being able to jump while attacking is important for long range users and makes you feel like you have more movement options. Small attacks should be mobile and large power attacks should have charges and/or long cooldowns. Airstrike repositioning is very cool looking gap extender/closer. What happens when you get struck in mid air? Is there I-frames protecting you or will someone elses archer be able to take advantage of you being airborn to deal damage? Will targets including basic mobs take into account player positions when shooting so back attacks deal more damage then front? I'm just curious to know how details Mob/players hit boxes can get with ot without armor, ect.
The most important aspect to me is rhythm. Ranged combatants typically don't have to dodge as many effects as other characters, so its nice to have an extra layer to interact with in terms of rotation optimization. Trad's comments about the longbow's weapon skills possibly encouraging shifting between charged shots and quick shots or other timing variations was a great indicator for me.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Ranger is my all-time favorite fantasy archetype ever since I first read about Aragorn in LotR. For a lot of fantasy worlds this also includes ranged weapons like bows, but the most important part is the fantasy is an unmatched mastery of the wilds and its inhabitants. They can track down foes, and move quickly when off the beaten path. What I don't want to see is an archetype that is JUST about archery. There needs to be aspects of the archetype that focus on that "master tracker/survivalst" fantasy, as well. To frame it from a PvP PoV, a Ranger in my ideal scenario might not be the best at damage, but would be the best at picking off escaping opponents. In PvE, a ranger kills the escaping minions before they can trigger a mechanic.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Guild Wars 2 handles the "action mode" ranged combat very well. I see a lot of people say things along the lines of "Why would you choose action mode if tab target autoaims for you?" And the simple answer is that you don't really aim. Its more like pointing in the direction of the enemy and it finds the target. The mechanical skill to properly "aim" is trivial, and it excels in situations where there's more than two enemies spread out over an area.
I'd also like to make some points about why something like headshots would not fit in AoC from what I've seen. For one, there is no uniform body size for players in AoC. Just point to the dwarves for that example. In a situation where something like headshots exist dwarves could have a noticeable advantage due to being much shorter, and therefore a smaller region to aim for. Taking into account height when thinking about your character build just doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience. Headshots also create a problem in that it leads to a skill ceiling that is exclusive to one weapon type. Headshots work great when everyone's main weapon is a ranged weapon, but in a game like AoC where that isn't the case it leads to PvPers feeling forced to use bows to access this skill ceiling. At the end of the day its an MMORPG not an MMOFPS. The skill ceiling of an RPG traditionally comes from mastery over a given toolset and knowing when is best to apply a certain tool. Mechanical skill is involved, but it isn't the centerpiece unlike a FPS. I enjoy FPS games myself, but unless the vision for the game is everyone using a ranged weapon primarily its more trouble than its worth.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm interested to see how the implementation of projectile arrows that can be intercepted by cover interacts with different body proportions of PCs, similar to my headshot concerns mentioned above. Would this create a scenario where smaller characters become harder to hit because its easier for them to hide behind cover (or even other players)? If that were the case I'm not sure I would like the implications that has on character creation...
I definitly liked the look and feel, but I must admit I was kinda hoping for a type of ranger/archer that didnt do that much jumping around. At least for the longbow I would have preferred more of a single-target-control-type-glasscannon(long charged but highly punishing shots, stun, push back, slow, but squishy).
If you kept the shortbow as in the video you'd also get a bigger span/difference by doing the longbow that way.
Also, it could be that the gameplay I'm hoping for would be with crossbows or something similar.
As an aside,the idea that you could choose to have a weapon that can be pre-charged at the price of charging being noticably slower would also have some utility.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
In a completely fictional game I once saw the concept where a class could create tools out of combat, which would then have to be consumed in order to activate skills. Allowing for the active creation (compared to the passive one used for quickshot) of charges for certain skills COULD create an interesting dynamic where the player can burst more dmg or have some extra skills after taking a break and focusing on restoring these things. Even more so if there are differently attuned charges to make for each skill. (Like picking fire or ice charges on such a skill would change what it actually does)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
While I do like the idea that it matters where on a mob I hit, my reaction speed is not up to par to make it an enjoyable thing in PVP. Could still be neat if some of the larger bosses where made up of multiple targets, and you could chose to destroy secondary targets like legs and that this will affect the rest of the battle. And if you destroy the head, you shouldnt need to destroy the arms after :P
As a whole I liked the target-system as shown, both TAB and the Action. I would even go so far as to say that a lower skill ceiling might yield a more even playing-field and thus a more competetive game.
Misc on Ammunition
I do understand why you wouldnt want to have arrows. It can be a hassle, and it only affects certain weapons/classes.
But I also very clearly see 2 missed opportunities.
One being that it could be fairly interesting if you actually had plenty of options, both in terms of how much dmg and of what dmgtype or additional effects, rather than just simple tiers. That way there is actually something to manage, and not just a number to keep topped up.
That said, this can probably be done as "charges" of some kind too on top of the quiver-concept. Say like you have a "small broadhead" quiver which gives you decent penetration and a little bit of bleed. And you have infinite of those. But say you use a "frost poison" on your quiver, so you also get 16 charges of "Frost poisoned small broadhead". Which either are used up first or can be woven in the rotation by a skill somehow.
The other being that with logistics being a thing in general in AoC I cant help myself from thinking that having to deal with logistics for ammunition/consumables for any large scale battle kinda makes sense.
To balance other classes with this and increase the logistical burden, you could add ammunition to a lot more classes. Such as differently attuned manastones for spells/summons, or throwing knifes/axes for any skills that needs a ranged "medium" for other classes. I also did see an image of some potential potion launchers which this would fit with too.
For further balance it might be possible to adjust durability loss and repair-cost for any weapon that doesnt use ammunition such that the "cost" of fighting ends up roughly the same anyway no matter what your preference is.
My only concern is that you don't make the Ranger into a 1-2 button wonder toon like so many other MMO's have done.
I keep seeing Aragorn mentioned about the Ranger, and yes, in Tolkien's world he was a Ranger as Tolkien deemed them to be, but you rarely saw Aragorn using a bow, he was more of a melee type, and that's fine. Do you plan on giving the Ranger class some up close and personal skills as well with a blade? Or are you going the classic DnD route and making them all ranged abilities?
Either way I'm very excited to get into Alpha2 and just test everything!!
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Distance, projectile flight speed, firing speed, line of sight, and precision.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
From a fantasy perspective, I think of a loner who is out in the wilderness, able to use the environment to their benefit, and possibly having a pet to assist. Be it setting traps, or hiding in plain sight with gear that allows camouflage, generally a ranger to me, would be masters of their surroundings.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Dragon's Dogma and Monster Hunter. Mainly because there wasn't auto-attacks, but every shot mattered or was a skill.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited by the aesthetic of the Ranger and loved the triple-shot type ability and the snipe ability, though I feel for both one should be stationary and actively/action combat targeting rather than tab. From a visual the leap-into-the-air-and-fire-down looked amazing, but to me it doesn't fit how I see a ranger; that being said, still a cool idea and can see how it could fit the AOC Ranger archetype. I also liked the idea of different types of bows, though perhaps the distinction can be more pronounced. For example, if you have a repeating crossbow you could run and fire for say 5 (arbitrary) bolts, then have a .5 sec root (arbitrary) to "reload", so there isn't just complete mobility. If you have a short bow, you can hit harder than a repeating crossbow, but have to aim more precisely, but can strafe while aiming. Then longbow, you can charge your attack, but have to be rooted to draw and fire.
What concerns me is the mobility of the class. I always felt it completely counter-intuitive for a ranged class to be hyper mobile. Distance is your friend and your biggest advantage, but giving a class that has its skills designed to be efficacious from a distance, the mobility to keep that distance in somewhat perpetuity seems imbalanced. I feel if the tab-target mode allows for players not to be looking in the direction they're firing, but still getting shots off, it detracts from the archetype or gives an unfair advantage. In my eyes, I think the best answer is to not have auto attacks from ranged weapons without some form of root or commitment to the shot(s) itself/themselves.
I understand this will be RPS when it comes to 1v1, but this leads me to assume if a ranged player gets the jump on a melee player, the odds are in their favour; I felt Steven's response to the mobility of the Ranger "just use a gap close or cc" somewhat dismissive or simply a reactionary statement that doesn't address the advantage. Perhaps I am jaded from getting kited by Hunters in wow, but my glory days as an elf in Lineage one really made me like the idea of rooted firing in combat.
I think either way, I will enjoy this class, but if I can do 90%-100% of my damage while running full tilt in any direction, that would be the primary reason to choose the class, to have that advantage, which I think is not a good decision.
My two cents, thanks for reading if you did.
I also really like the animations. The speed of shooting and killing mobs is fast. But it can still be really fun.
The sound is also very nice.
A thought on Tab vs. Action: In town, when hiring your second class, could you choose (as an example). So choose between Tab, Soft and Action. Tab 100% Damage, Soft Target 200% and Action Compat 400% (or maybe 80% / 120% / 160% whatever balance makes sense). I think that fits into the risk vs. reward concept.
In addition, optional ammunition would be perfect. It only needs to do 3% to 8% more damage (depending on the manufacturer's skill). When you run out of arrows you can keep shooting without doing extra damage. I also love the idea of Craftet Special Munition. For example poisoned arrows, trip hazard arrows, cursed arrows, signal arrows. Again, one could only improve the damage or effect. So that all skills work without crafting. Just a few percent worse. I would love to see such a complex system.
And for long term it is much easier to balance!
I love ranged weapon classes, but in many MMOs I've played, the basic range attacks rarely feel engaging. The sound of the attack, hit feedback, and animations go a long way to making it feel engaging. Also the ability to move plays a large role as well. From what I have seen everything is well on the way there. I will say that the move and shoot and shoot and jump animations struck me as a little stilted. But that could just be because... well.. alpha.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what do you want to see and not want to see?
I love Rangers. My first D&D character was a ranger. I love the aspect of the master tracker and would love to see this implemented in some way. I also enjoy the idea of creating a sniper. Slow firing but high damage. I would love to be able to build a ranger in this way.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Very different game style. But I love the way shooting feels in Destiny 2. The thing I could see translate from that into this is movement. Being able to move in unique and exciting ways while shooting at something (either to get close for shotgun-like attacks or far for sniping attacks) really helps me feel engaged during combat. I also really liked how this felt in Archeage. The ability to do flips didn't do anything... but dang is it fun.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
1. Player collision. I know there will be a lot of collision in this game so please do NOT make it so friendly players can block your projectiles. New World tried that and it was universally hated. Also, I am worried that with a projectile-based system and the action camera, people will get between you and what you are shooting at to proc PVP or try to get you to kill them and gain corruption. I would like to know how the ranged system will work with friendly players and random players out in the world
2. Weapon variety. I am hoping that there is quite a bit more difference between the different types of bows/crossbows than was shown. It looked like the short bow was just the better option due to its dps output. I want each weapon to feel very different. Long bow should do much better damage and shortbow should shoot way faster.