Found that the ranger combat was pretty spot on, but I hope to see some additional distinction between short and long bows:
If I were to use a longbow, I would not want to be anywhere close to enemies and it would be in my best interest to keep them away from me, so there should be abilities focused on keeping the enemies out of range and repositioning backwards (basically little to no forward moving acrobatics). Also longbow should have longer range than other ranged weapons. I found GW2 longbows really well done as they have almost the same auto attack range as shortbows, but you can manually cast the auto attacks on further away enemies and still hit them if they do not move out of the projectile's way.
With regards to shortbows, since you are skirting around enemies and close to combat, logically it would be nice to also see some traps, bombs and caltrops etc. being utilized. Basically shortbow should have high skill high reward gameplay.
I'll duplicate my feedback that I left in youtube comments here, just in case.
First of all I want to say - great work! It seems like the game is steadily heading in the right direction.
Second, what I'm about to say next comes not out of spite, but from my wish to Ashes of Creation to be as good of a game as possible. So here goes.
Several things I would like to point out about demonstrated ranged combat. It looks like it feels good. However, it could be even better.
For me personally, bows in CRPG's, ARPG's and MMO's are often the least appealing choice of weaponry. Simply because almost in every game it's more like a machine gun than a bow. Especially late game. I mean, come on, even Legolas can't pull out as many shots per minute! And he's constantly moving and shooting around.
In my opinion, bows should be very slow attack rate and big damage per hit to be satisfying. You prime your shot, aim, release and boom!
A good example is New World. Some players manage to make trick shots on large distance and hit their target in the head for almost entire health bar. It feels great and rewarding! Now, I know there's no headshots in AoC, but that is besides the point. The point is - firing slower, but doing big damage feels better than pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew. That's what bows, and especially crossbows, are supposed to be - high risk high reward weapons.
Then there's constant noise problem. Backdraw, release and arrow whistle. All those sounds are great in the demo. However, they get annoying pretty fast due to CONSTANT and FREQUENT shooting. Now imagine in a raid. If there's several rangers all shooting at the same time... It would drive me nuts! If the devs end up going with this attack speed for bows, I would suggest to tone down backdraw and arrow whistle sounds, but leave the release and impact sounds to be "juicy".
And lastly, Steven said there will be no ammo count. But they still could make "ammo" in a form of passive bonuses. For example, barbed arrow to deal bleed damage, armor piercing arrow, blunt arrow to stagger an opponent and whatnot. It would be nice if you could pull out a special arrow out of quiver to enhance the next shot. Like, barbed arrow + snipe = big bleed debuff. Blunt arrow + snipe = a knockback. And so on. That would be a very cool tactical choice.
First of all i was amazed by the landscape and environment a massive well done for that. The sounds from the arrows i loved it but tab targeting with no ammo? sorry thats gonna scream easy mode.
The massive problem with tab targeting without ammo it just becomes a massive assist train with one person calling the shots and the others tabbing until they find the target then just smack everything u got at that target, there is no positioning, no aiming skills its just simple.
Recent games that have come out provides somekind of skill with ranged weapons, projectiles can miss for example or get blocked by a tank. Players need to stand still to aim which is something that needs to be done in real life, you cant strafe around and still managing to hit targets, even Legolas stands still to take better aim.
Imo all ranged apart from healing should be action combat or at least have ammo so there is non of this fire and forget type of combat with heat seeking arrows/fireballs etc. I can foresee already a range meta with this kind of combat.
While I was expecting ranged combat to turn out more tab-focused, I was still disappointed with it somehow.
The contrast couldn't be starker between on the one hand an immersive, fun and impactful melee action combat we saw previously and on the other hand a rather uninspiring (not to say braindead) button mashing tab-target ranged combat we recognize from old MMO's.
The flashy moves (which I do think look awesome!) and wonderful sound effects (!) were necessary to (but in my opinion failed to) conceal the unimaginative combat style that tab-targeting is.
I wasn't planning on playing archer, so I'm not worried too much, though. For the sake of balance I think tab-targeted moves should receive damage reduction.
I generally don't play Ranger/Hunter classes (always preferred melee dps) but I think the hybrid style looks cool. Full tab targeting would make it too boring but full action would be too much. This is one of the few times I think I'd try a Ranger class. I thought the high mobility jump ability was great.
The old world is dying, the new world struggles to be born, now is the time of monsters.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Immersion, impact and agency.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see archers feel like they are actually firing a bow... I did alot Archery in my life and mmos never get them right.
I dont want to feel like any other ranged class... other then the effect of these abilities its no different then any other caster or wand user... make Archers feel like archers.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I feel like games like New World, Valheim, Medieval Dynasty get it alot closer and it helps my immersion. Aiming should matter, sure keep a hybrid system for those that do not want action targeting but atleast allow us that do want to use it to get something out of it. Increased crit chance, damage for properly aiming. Based off this demo, it seems like just another wow hunter clone and a waist of a good opportunity.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I was concerned about the over use of tab targeting and this just disappointed me...
Additional issues.
Also ammunition is a must. I feel like ammo would add so much to this game, crafters could make it, enchanter can upgrade ammo with different magical effects... not having ammo completely breaks the immersion for me.
My Questions
It was stated that when in action targeting mode, targets can run into the arrow before it hits the ground or backdrop. With this said can the arrow be dodged? Can a melee pc just side step all your arrows when closing the distance? or are our non-existing arrows homing missiles that track targets in tab targeting and not action targeting?
Amazing. Honestly it just hits all the boxes for me. Usually, I'm not a huge fan of Archers in MMOs, but wow, this does make want to play one in this game for sure.
I really want to emphasize how much I DON'T WANT COMBAT TO BE MORE ACTION BASED. Especially ranged combat. I just don't understand people who are not satisfied with this, and those who want to move in a more action-combat direction. This isn't an action combat game, and it wont ever be.
If arrows are projectiles (which they are), you could always avoid those attacks. Be it by going behind an obstacle, another player tanking the shot by going in front of you, etc. You could also introduce some abilities that block projectiles, so everyone saying stuff along the lines of
Ranged combat is just auto aim and leaves less room for a skill cap as having to aim, you can't miss your shots with tab target and you can't dodge shots from an enemy which doesn't reward good gameplay in PvP. Please reconsider making PvP skill more rewarding.
is simply wrong. You can miss shots, you can block/dodge them, and there's absolutely skill included. Be it by doing certain rotations, reacting to certain things by moving/dodging, or reacting by using certain abilities. Sure, it isn't on the level of pure action combat, but you can't get there without completely sacrificing and destroying tab-targeting combat. If all arrows were purely avoidable, how would you even do damage? You could just sidestep every single arrow, and dodge everything. To make it work you would need to actively immobilize/cc your targets so you could land a shot. Or, you would just make almost all abilities into AoEs,
kinda like what BDO does.
A nice middle ground, with having tab-target gameplay, ways to avoid taking damage from ranged projectiles, as well as some skillshots mixed in, is just a perfect solution. There should be no deviation from this.
Overall the focus on targeted, auto-aiming homing attacks and abilities was very disappointing. I was hoping to see aimed shots fired without a target required. Reticle based target acquisition "hybrid" is essentially still tab targeting.
There was some discussion during the Q&A about tab vs action combat and the ability to fire manually aimed shots, but it was difficult to determine what this applied to or if a target was still needed. Can you confirm if the abilities shown (the 'basic' arrow shot, snipe, etc) can be fired without a target? If so, is there a damage boost or anything to encourage players to fire them this way to make up for the chance of a miss?
Again, I'm not sure what you, and others expected. They wont go full action combat, and some things you can't just compromise on, and turn into both hybrid and action. You need those "homing" attacks, otherwise it's just action combat. Though these homing attacks shouldn't work like in more traditional tab-targeting games, where they just follow you around everywhere. You still should have the tools to avoid damage from those attacks, either by dodging, using abilities to block/avoid damage, actively blocking, moving behind cover, etc.
You should absolutely be able to fire all the abilities without having a target, in action mode. So that's the only real concern that I agree with you on.
As it is currently, it's looking amazing. Obviously we will have more abilities that require you to aim, and/or target manually (Like the 3rd ability showcased), and it's a good thing to introduce such abilities.
I'm very satisfied with how tab-targeting works, and honestly I can see myself switching to action sometimes, if I want to be more engaged. By switching to action mode, you have the ability to easily switch targets by aiming, and overall it could feel more fluid when switching between targets. It is more engaged, as besides moving and paying attention to which skills you use, you also need to actively aim at your targets.
Tab targeting portion should absolutely not change, in favor of making action combat more skill based. Sometimes I just don't want to bother with aiming, and I want a more relaxing gameplay. If I wanted to constantly aim at things, I'd play other games, not MMORPGs.
What I'm more curious/concerned about, is how the passives and general buffs/debuffs will work, how many abilities are there going to be on our ability bar, and the overall combat mechanics. GW2 for example, does a lot of things poorly in this regard, so I can't really rate their combat system very highly. Everyone is able to provide the same boons(buffs), regardless of the class they play. It's really homogenized, and there's not much uniqueness between classes in terms of passives, buffs/debuffs, etc. Also stacking in one spot to share boons/healing is just bad gameplay imo, and I don't want to ever see it in Ashes.
The main issue with that, is that in group content, everyone is stacking on top of each other. Being "ranged" is actively discouraged, as everyone just stacks in the melee range of bosses.
Other than that, I can't really comment on much. The sounds were kinda too loud, and I could see them getting annoying, especially when firing a lot of arrows.
I personally like what a saw in this live stream, the visuals where stunning and the minotaur enemies’ models where a delight to see fully animated and in the game from the concepts we saw. The environment was also wonderful and truly was immersive, It will add so much to the role play value/aspect of the game so keep it up!
Combat related feedback:
Will the weather affect the archers projectiles?
Such as if there is a strong gale blowing maybe the projectiles would go further or be blown in one direction compared to another.
Now on to the divisive topic of the combat and aiming. I’ll start with confessing that I do prefer action combat, that said I think really the discussion comes down to how to balance the free aim action mode with the tab target mode.
I think the trade off should be that in tab target mode you have a percentage chance to doge the projectiles dependent on how far you are and the level of the ranger/opponent. Using the action camera would get rid of a high percentage to doge and rely on wether you are able to manually doge it or not, so if it hits it’s going to do the damage it’s supposed to. I think regional damage would also allow for more usefulness while using action combat and incentivises players to switch between both modes for that high risk high reward factor.
An example would be giving some kind of crit bonus or a stun debuff chance for hitting the head. Aiming and landing arms and legs could have a chance to give attack speed debuffs or/and movement debuffs. hitting the body would just be normal damage. the auto aim if it is centred to the body could easily have a chance of hitting the other body parts just from the movements and animation of the mobs/players, which would give tab target users a good chance of getting those debuffs and crits as well.
The tab target mode will also allow users to rest their hands after using action combat and for ease of use, I think it would be really fun if it’s viable to switch between the modes to maximise your damage and mobility.
Visuals /Sound/ Environment : 10/10 It's amazing!!
Combat: 4/10 :
I think you are trying to make a revolutionary combat system. But honestly, what I saw yesterday... looks like 2 combat systems, not 1 hybrid combat.
If we have 2 options, we will choose TAB target. And if you nerf TAB target( -dps/- hits/...) you're going to FORCE people to play in ''action combat'' to be competitive(in PVP).
Please don't make the mistake of making a game with 2 options. The combat system should be the same for everyone.
Action combat, especially for PVP, feels much better.
The PVP tab target is = TAB-1-2-3-4-5; TAB-1-2-3-4-5, ...you can't dodge/aim.
I think it's a very simple system for a game that's going to be released in 2025+.
*Edit: Bots/automacros/aimbots/... exist in every MMO. I don't think that's an excuse to say TAB target > action combat.
tbh i think this is fine, tab targeting is good when mindlessly farming mobs cause RSI doing tab targeting but i would like a quick hot button to swap to action/hybrid mode for if i get jumped, i would prefer using action/hybrid in pvp though but if netflix and mindlessly pveing i think tab targting be the way to go since RSI or what ever it called :P
Sadly more then likely it's PVP where TAB is going to be the most important because every attack missed is you digging your own grave.
TAB is going to ensure that there is no miss (well unless it's done mechanically behind the scenes with a hit chance roll) so having an extra layer of possible miss chance if you for some reason swing your mouse wrong or your opponent uses a movement skill and dashes out of your reticle area causing a miss is just extra misses you can't afford in comparison.
Things that I like:
- Audio is AMAZING
- Visual effects are AMAZING
- Combat direction is Perfect with the Action and Tab camera PLEASE don't try do balance them and give action mode extra incentives (No Headshots!)
- Do not rework the combat again please this is 100% the correct direction - you Won't make everyone happy so don't try to do so
- Attack speed from both ranged and melee weapons is looking good
- love the difference between weapons
Things I'd like to change
- Mobs are dying WAY to fast, decrease that for at least twice of what we saw.... TTK is absolutely Way to fast in the demonstration and now I worry that you won't deliver the 30s to 60s TTK when fighting a player - TTK is extremely important we want a longer and skilled combat and not a 5 second burst BDO combat.
- Maybe add more camera effects like shake/blur to make the combat more impactful (make it optional to lower in settings)
- Blood effects would be awesome for all the "living" mobs... if we can get blood decals on the floor or coming out the mobs - look at how Tera did blood splatter and decals... it's amazing and makes it so much more impactful this video is a good example (allow it to be turned off for the kids or people that don't like blood)
- A more visceral audio feedback when a Critical strike lands, combined with some extra blood slpatter (again, look at how Tera did it) or how Rust does the sound effect for Headshots (but please, No headshots in Ashes.. I'm just talking about the sound effect idea for Critical Strikes)
- A satisfying combat will make everyone happy, even the ones that are not big fans of the other side of the hybrid combat, that's why my suggestions above focus on that on making it Really impactful and satisfying just to kill mobs
- Don't allow people to turn off sun/lens flare/weather effect same as foliage so that positioning according to the sun is important
- I think every Mob should have some sort of CC in his kit (all should have soft CC, some should have hard CCs in every mob group pack) so you can't just run away from everything on foot or mounted
Something I will add as we didn't get to see max range. I'm hoping that regardless of tab or action that ranged attacks are more than just 30 feet... MMOs typically have "ranged" attacks but it winds up feeling like nothing more then overglorified melee with reach. Instead and because it is melee with reach all that happens is melee classes will typically get gap closers to compensate for the range and the ranged will get skills to evade away, leading to a circus.
With this in mind I'll get to the point of that bows right now feels way too fast, you don't even need that quickshot skill... the only time you will see someone in archery do that is on a stationary target up close.
Personally I would think that archery should be more slow and methodical as hitting a moving target is difficult and it should hit hard.
And I hope with castle sieges etc we see proper bow range rather than an overglorified melee bow-machinegun.
increase the action attacks damage or add headshots and this will be an aimbot and hacker shit show
You can't make game design decisions based on a fear of hackers. You just need to design and develop a good game with good anti-cheat and actively police the cheaters.
You can't make game design decisions based on a fear of hackers. You just need to design and develop a good game with good anti-cheat and actively police the cheaters.
Yes, you can, and you should.... games change their design all the time not making things client side even if it was better to be client side because of hackers
there exist no anti-cheat in this planet that can catch good cheats - people get caught in professional eSports using it live.
adding bad mechanics like HS not only is terrible for an MMORPG that Should have soft lock so we don't end up with a Shit tier combat like NW - but it only adds to having more cheaters in the game. big L
Combat is looking AMAZING as it is now, hopefully they stay on track.
I always play rangers in mmos and last stream confirmed to me that i'll play it in AoC as well. The basic attacks seemed fine to me(the overall atk speed could get toned down a bit tho) but i'd like more differences between longbow and shortbow, they seem very similar atm except for atk speed. Imo longbow should have higher range and higer damage but slow slower, whereas shortbow would be more closer range based with higher mobility and atk speed but lower dmg.
Also i think fully drawn basic longbow shot should be more impactful, perhaps the fully drawn shot should get extra range(and damage) and could be used in action camera to aim the people outside of tab lock range(which would give more meaning to the action mode as well). Also ik it's prealpha2 but i saw few shots go through the ground and that should not be happening, playing properly around terrain for potential outplays and proper positioning is very important for ranger class(maybe even all ranged classes). This also goes to losing vision of the target behind the terrain/obstacle should break the target lock and potentially stop the cast of certain skills(maybe even put them on short cooldown as it's a failed cast). We saw only 3 very basic skills but i really hope there are more skillshot, aoe based skills which require some type of "aiming" at least straight line skillshots(Snipe skill from the stream should be aimed as well, it would give it more impact).
We didnt see any melee skills either so i hope there are some of them. Air strike also seemed like a cool skill but the startup animation is a bit too long for a kiting skill. Also the dodges from the stream didnt feel very smooth but im sure that will get polished. Also i hope for a very diverse builds with different class and weapon combinations, ex. long range high burst, long range supportish, short range debuffer, short range mobile sustained dps... Overall im happy with what i saw and i give a solid 8.5/10 for this stream. Thank you!
Most of this feedback is given knowing that experiencing it first hand may prove some or all of it inert.
1) it felt like the short bow had the standard shooting attack as a potential distance creator. That felt way too easy to kite melee mobs or melee characters. Ranged characters historically have an advantage over casters, while struggling a bit more with shedding melee attackers without outside help. No matter the short or long bow, you shouldn’t be able to just run and shoot to maintain or improve your distance. It really should be fight OR flight not both at the same time. The long bow movement felt good in that aspect, so If the short bow does increase mobility by say 30%, so too should the damage suffer by at least 30% (while mobile).
2) weapon swapping. And this is true for all characters. Part of planning for battle should be selecting the correct weapon for battle prior to engaging in combat. If you’re a ranger and you have your longbow out and you need more mobility, you shouldn’t be able to instantly swap your weapon without some sort of movement and ability cooldown penalty. Perhaps all skills go into a 2 second cooldown mode and your movement has a non-cancelable action effect with limited mobility during the swap time.
3) tab targeting really felt like it set the bar really low for required skill. I don’t think you should have to be a Navy SEAL Sniper to be an effective ranger, but I think the tab based targeting is a bit too free at the moment. Reduce damage done (across all classes) if the reticle isn’t directly on the target. That doesn’t mean it has to be a huge damage difference, but enough that it drives a character to WANT to be accurate and get better. It also introduced more importance around choice and positioning. Don’t remember where enemies or obstacles are based on your surrounding? You can look around but you’ll be doing less damage while you do so. Reward players for being focused on the target and task at hand. Encourage players to challenge themselves and really set apart the ranged aspect of the gameplay from the rest
LONGBOW/SHORTBOW
I’m becoming more and more intrigued with the combat systems and overall feel of Ashes with each development video.
As a main ranger in over 5 different MMOs, this was very exciting! The now sounds were amazing and the idea behind the range skills were spot on.
However, I would have liked to see totally different skills on the longbow vs the short bow. This would really force choice and gameplay decisions when either weapon offers a different set of skills.
While the concepts and overall utility of both weapons are as expected: Longbow being slower and allowing charged attacks vs the short bow being mobile and quickly used, there is room for skill variation. Maybe the skill trees will help with this but having a different set of base skills for the short bow would give more purpose for using it vs using the longbow.
Other than that, I’m soooo excited about all of the hard work put into this game. You guys are seriously crating something epic!!
Much respect and love to you all!!
Hello everyone, I've been following the progress of AOC for over a year and I'm giving my first feedback here. I find it very fascinating to see how Steven himself makes his personal progress here in the video. From the beginning it looks like he has no plan and doesn't know the weapon. After a short time, Steven almost becomes a marksman with this weapon. That looks like a lot of fun. I don't remember anything comparable from any other MMO. I like the style, the hybrid thingi and I think from this video on, many will dream of playing an archer in AOC one day, myself included. Good work, thanks for sharing and looking forward to the next video. Greetings Ragman
taking or giving feedback I always focus on the negative part more which is, in my opinion, the moving one, but in general, love what you trying to do here, keep it up please and take that with a pinch of salt. combat style (general for ranged):
To me 'action combat' for basic attacks is a terrible idea not only for melee, but for ranged as well and the reasons are simple 1. moveability which significantly drops while having to aim which leads to 2. slow combat reaction and limited environment awarness. Those reasons inveterately lead to 3. slow phasing and frustration due to player lack of (aiming) skill or in more general cases people will lack equipment because we still live in a society where 60hz monitor is a standard and for shooter style gaming you definitely need a decent high DPI mice as well, not talking about decent connection which is a must this type of gaming. Those things cost extra money I'd not personally expect to be invested in a 3rd person MMO game where gameplay is meant to be for very long term.
That's my honest opinion on this approach, yet, that applies only for basic attacks, I'd very much like to see some abilities to be action style and had to be aimed, but not because I have to, rather because they will feel good to use that way and I as a player chose the opportunity myself. And I prefer a free camera in MMO gaming in general, being locked just to see what is in front of me limits a lot.
combat style (hunter):
with that said, the 'sniper shot' is to me a perfect example of an ability that would feel very good to use in action style and had to be aimed and while aiming it could charge the animation giving me (limited) time to aim and release the big damage. That I can imagine would work perfectly alongside TAB targeting and releasing simpler cooldowns such as the one on 'number 2' in the showcase video. I see no rational reason to frustrate people to miss approx. 50% shots on a such simple ability like that one is.
Cooldowns definitely should start AFTER releasing the ability, not while pressing.
long shot (the charging one) should not do bigger damage than the regular shot, but could perhaps grant always critical and have a bigger range, but you have to stand still. I repeat again... players should not be limited by game, but because they choose or need to do it at a particular moment, you can apply this logic to any class honestly. Just think about how it feels, you put a 'sniper shot' on tab target, but the normal spamming shots you put on action style... you need to think about it as a player who will play this game for years.. this could not possibly feel good, because it always required commitment to be effective and are you always fully committed to simple tasks?
graphics, sounds, lighting, animations (visuals):
I have to say a lot better work on the animation part this time, basic attacks truly feel basic which is great, the sniper shot had a visualization of charging, which is also very good. Keep it like that guys, leave the big animation for big cooldowns, I like it very much this time.
sounds in the other hand are still slightly a problem to me, yet one more time I have to repeat, think about it as a player who plays this game daily for the very long term, you will very much likely hear that sound a lot so it might sound great now but after few days it's very annoying, at least to me it is and that strong arrow *whooosh* would drive me mad to swap to something else or quit in no time. Perhaps make the 'ability sounds' separated from everything else in settings.
the lighting looks nice from a viewer's perspective, but as a player, I can tell for sure this will be a big issue here, I played a lot of Arma and dayZ, those are simulators and there you expect to not see a target due to position of the sun, but in this game not so much.. you definitely need to adjust the lighting or make the target more visible, you can take an example from World of Warcraft, just put a shiny circle around a selected character or something.
my personal suggestions and thoughts:
I'd love to see arrows craftable by a profession that every Hunter will have, but they should not be required in abilities yet they could enhance them if players choose to use them. So for example, if nothing is done player will shoot basic arrows designed by you if crafted arrows are used they will be counted and limited by the amount player made, but can enhance the shots meaning every shot including the big ones. So if a Rogue has the same profession to make poisons for his weapons(for immersive example), he could sell those poisons to a Hunter and he could make poisoned arrows, or buy element essence from a mage and enhance arrows with fire etc. I'd not be mad if it's done somewhat like that, because it could be beneficial if some extra time and afford is spent and I just love those types of optional min-maxing.
I watched the whole stream and found it to be exceptionally good. The only thing that was kinda left undefined is the benefit of using action combat mode instead of tab targeting. Steven only mentioned the benefit of quick target acquiring in action mode.
Players who use action mode should have a longer maximum range, and the ability to snipe down people who move outside the target lock range. That's the whole point of aiming instead of auto targeting.
In close range combat, tab targeting is king.
Arrows should not disappear when they fly beyond the limit of max distance tab targeting. Arrows should (depending on the type of bow and charge time) work like in real life (horizontal shot-physics).
Giving multiple options is the best solution when people can't agree on a single best strategy or approach.
The environment was beautiful. That area looked like it would have been cold and wet.
The bow being pulled back and released sounded so good!
I loved the mobility of the class. I may be stereotyping, but a Ranger class to me should always be one of the most mobile classes in any game.
Damage and mobility are probably the most important aspects of a Ranger's attacks for me. They need to be able to hit, but not so strong that they're the only class people play. I don't think Ranger's should be able to use every weapon type, at least not with ease or be great at it. There should be certain weapons they are able to use easily and others that are not so great, but still an option if the player wants to use them for aesthetic reasons.
I loved that you could MISS your shots! Tab targeting has its place but being able to either miss or hit something out of tab range is an awesome possibility.
GW2 had great weapon attacks for its classes. Some of them were showcased in this video, like jumping over an enemy while shooting. That's the kind of mobility and damage I'd like to see.
The only thing I'm concerned about is how many mobs were pulled while he was running around. For a mobility class, with low health, mob density seems like it could become an issue. I know that's also a fun aspect of the game, but it can also become tedious if it is too frustrating.
First off, I gotta add my praise for how beautiful the landscape effects were. The team are indeed doing an amazing job and I say, keep up the great work! I really like what I saw with the mysterious tower and the ruined town. I definitely want the lore of the world to be ever present in the world we are playing in, to continuedly learn more about the old world as we grow in level, and to have our achievements in game mean something. I hope that with the node system, that we can enjoy the work completed with building a town before other player groups come along and destroy it. I don't want to log in everyday only to constantly find the town we had worked hard to build the day before destroyed by a rival group of players. That would not be fun at all. I do have faith in you guys at intrepid that you also want this outcome to be avoided. Anyway, back to the topic of the video.
Both the melee and ranged combat feel really good as far as I can tell. I do like that the major abilities have to have some kind of targeting skill in order for their use to be maximized. I like that a lot. I just dont want every shot to have to have targeting skill like in a FPS. That is what made the combat of Crowfall not so fun. When you are in a huge PvP battle and the players are going every which way, its hard to get the best focused shots everytime. I like a good mix of tab targeting and aimed mechanics like in Guild Wars 2 or Tera. I like that balance. and I know Steven and Intrepid do too. I absolutely love the high jump and AoE ability of the ranger! I hope to see more of these high fantasy abilities in other classes like the mage or cleric. Asmongold had said that he thought the text above the mobs was hard to read sometimes, and I agree, though I assume what we see now is not the final product and just a place holder?
Is what we saw, in terms of the spellcasting of the Minotaur shamans a good indicator of how basic spellcasting will be in the future alpha 2 build of the game?
I'll try to keep it brief, because there's a lot of comments here. I'm overall very happy with this preview.
Starting with the stuff that's perfect already: I love this kind of reticle, soft-lock system (similar to GW2 and BnS). The visuals, sound, and pacing of most of the attacks are great. And I liked what I heard about the longbow and shortbow differences, but I would have to see more to really judge those gameplay choices.
I think the time-to-kill is pretty good, but maybe on the low end for solo gameplay. Both the player and monsters didn't seem to have much health. But maybe that's just because this was a DPS class vs. mage enemies, like mentioned in the video. In context it's probably fine, but I would hope there are some meatier targets out there as well.
I do have some nitpicks about the leaping ability, though. It felt somewhat awkward at first, I think because it's essentially two abilities, but was presented as a single long one. Like, to me, it looked more like a leaping dodge, followed by a burst of shots, but the visuals and sound effects (and camera movement?) blurred it into a mush. Ideally, I would make it more punctuated to show off the two effects, or just make the whole thing faster if it's meant to be an acrobatic blur. Also, the initial sound effect was just pretty bad for a leap (expecting more of a "swoosh").
I love the direction about bow weapon attack as a player.
But as a person who does archery I have some thoughts want to share to developers, and please note that I don’t know everything I only know what I know, I just giving feedbacks base on what I know and how do I feel about it.
I love that how you guys design the difference between short bow and long bow, to me it feels like the difference between using a short bow with short draw length around 26-28 inches and a longer bow with max draw length around 30-33 inches, short bow can do shots faster and keep the mobility because of the short draw length and the bow size and long bow can charge to do more damage but will move slower both because of the longer draw length and to keeping the full draw to squeeze whole power out of the bow.
But when I saw the skill snipe, I feel that you should do more, should make 3 different type bow: short, medium, long.(I want to make more detail about different bow type but I guess it won’t be fun to the most of players so I simply add one more bow type.)
Short bow stay the same, which bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches. But I watch the bow update video again, I can’t really say I like animation abuot draw apart the short bow.
Pulling the string/bow or drawing apart animation should be like using both back and arm strength like 50:50 on both right and left side to pull the bow apart, which means the bow hand and the bow shouldn’t always stay at the same position in the whole time, in full action the bow hand will be look like doing jab toward the target and the draw hand normally will looks more like how you animate the draw hand in long bow animations.
Or if the short bow shooting style you use is like these, well I think it make sense: https://youtu.be/AMWOUCuZ-kQ https://youtu.be/1o9RGnujlkI
but I personally use both side strength to draw bow apart when I need to shoot fast.
Long bow charge mechanic in ranged weapon update video start with medium bow category, which bow length around 50-75 inches and/or safe max draw length up to 33 or 34 inches for example, yes I’m trying to make medium size bow and long bow into same category.
Add Japanese bow “yumi” as a new long bow category(or say sniper category), the reason why yumi could become a new long bow is it may stand as a part of culture of Ren’kai because Ren’kai is the tallest race in Ashes of Creation and the tattoo on new male Ren’kai concept art keep reminds me about Japanese yakuza if Ren’kai going to have some Japanese culture in it please consider add yumi to be long bow category, and yumi is a type of bow can be made in very long bow length from 83 to 96 inches with very long draw length from 31 to over 41 inches and still able to perform shots easily while one knee down without tilting the bow, and it’s perfect to further develop the play style focus on charge mechanic and base on skills like snipe, for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller.
So it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots a little bit like how charger works in Splatoon.
I think that players need to craft arrows to prepare for contents is too detailed, I feel the quiver idea that Steven mentioned in video is very good, it can be like quiver automatic craft arrows for player just by automatically consume the materials in player's bag and the quiver can give enchant effect to arrows to do more different things base on the quiver type and level so just think it’s a magic quiver, for example a quiver made from some monster have poison characteristic which will allow the quiver to craft poison arrows for player to use, and player should able to equip multiple quivers in the same time and switches from one to another base on situations and with cooldown or something, to me a ranger from 2 to 4 quivers is normal and over 4 to 6 quivers I will say great and over 6 quivers maybe a class like ranger + ranger should able to, it’s will be like how coating works for bow in Monster Hunter, and please NOTE that the quiver I mentioned is those able to hold arrows stable in position the kind of quiver for example: https://youtu.be/yoApEukBT6o https://youtu.be/pjUGTkcbLB0 https://youtu.be/FSAPuDMNB40
Or some UNCOMMON quiver that we don't see in history books: https://youtu.be/QKWJMs8Ujms https://youtu.be/HA4GuEAYf1M https://youtu.be/Vn0fNuss-Dc https://youtu.be/0EigWvuaOTA
and telling players that quiver is magical quiver will automatically craft arrows has another benefits which is that if you allow player to decide how many quivers he/she want to equip on the character it doesn't have to put heavy amount of arrows in quiver to represent how many arrows are there in the quivers and feel more clean and natural if a character equip multiple quivers in stead of making it looks silly but as I know equip multiple quivers is doable and it's a real thing in history at least in my region.
The arrow sound is not real to me, I know that whistle arrowhead would make sound like that and yumi will also make a sound when the string hit the string stopper because of the materials and that sound make lots of people misunderstanding that sound is the sound of arrow flying through the air, but I don’t have a greater idea as an alternative option because real arrow don’t make too much noise and it’s why bow and arrows are good for hunting, at least the sound could be tune down a little bit in my opinion.
Holding the full draw or say charging animation is good I can feel it’s a powerful bow through the shaking hands, but the draw hand looks not good you should pick some draw method and just stick with them like thumb draw and slavic draw are the ways able to draw and stable the arrow on the arrow pass and the arrow won’t go every where while moving around, it’s not which is better way you have to research on what pose using what draw way feels more natural, and the shoulder position is wrong: https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=825
It’s too hard to explain this properly because English is not my native language, I just link a video for you to refer: https://youtu.be/qiYB0gku_zs?t=64
Some release animations are good some are not, for example: https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=827
the draw hand can or should be like how Japanese archery does on release which means fully stretch the draw hand and arm for example: https://youtu.be/Rh-ohspuCmE?t=54
and this shot: https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=831
the bow hand move is weird I don’t know the arrow is on which side of the bow but in animation seems on right side always so the bow hand shouldn’t be like that when release it will hit the arrow and make the shot miss the target it should be a khatra instead, and this: https://youtu.be/0257a-goFwE?t=1366
is bad too like I said before that pulling the bow is not only use hand or shoulder or back if it need a archer will use the whole body to draw faster steady and smooth like in this video: https://youtu.be/pFkjVA7BIcM
and I also notice you put some kind khatra staff in bow hand animations so I want link more videos for you to refer in order to understand more about khatra to put khatra into animation better and increase the variety of khatra: https://youtu.be/rns0u2D0muk https://youtu.be/zM6ha6Iiwg8 https://youtu.be/dON9iz1lgwk
Hope these videos help you to make all action better.
And please note that there are tons of different techniques and alternatives to make the original techniques fits more for individuals and most of time they are no right or wrong but there still are things definitely bad or wrong to do in traditional archery such as the bow shoulder was pushed away or up from or into the socket by bow will cause injury.
Or the feather sound when arrow travel through the path sometime feather make a small sound by touching the arrow pass even it was a clean release, if you don't feel good after trying all these, this one I can't find any example.
The last option is yumi sound that string hit the string stopper will make a sound some good some not some high some low you have to find which you think fits the specific bow, and the sound is different between every yumi and different archer means same yumi can makes different sound by different archers.
example: https://youtu.be/7bbSTabF_nA https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxewhuFyn9_LS_xv_p-mVI4PVC0Q3SZpDL
Last sound is arrow hit on the target, the sound I saying is at beginning.
It's a sound made by the glove and the string and string hit the string stopper(yes not every yumi make the sound on release), the glove called yugake/ゆがけ/弽 the glove have a little thing like a nail to hold the string, the sound is made by the string scratch the nail thing at the beginning then the string vibration then hit the string stopper and the bow vibration in the end.
Like, to me, it looked more like a leaping dodge, followed by a burst of shots, but the visuals and sound effects (and camera movement?) blurred it into a mush. Ideally, I would make it more punctuated to show off the two effects, or just make the whole thing faster if it's meant to be an acrobatic blur. Also, the initial sound effect was just pretty bad for a leap (expecting more of a "swoosh").
Have you watched the 4K version on Youtube? If not, maybe it was just Twitch's downgrade of the video quality.
As someone looking to switch from tank/fighter to ranger. I liked the gameplay i seen and will be trying out the class. I do hope headshot damage is a think or some type of weakpoint hits aside from criticals. Also, i completely agree with no ammo tracking. However i would like to see maybe enchantments or something to temporarily place on the bows to give different stat effects, like bleed, burn, poison, stam/mp drain, undead damage increase, dragon damage increase. Stuff along those lines. im hoping to play the scout class hoping longbow works well for crits and weakpoint hits from far away.
My only complaint about the entire footage was the twang of the bow. I liked the sound of it but it was way to loud it was all i could hear and kind of annoyed me.
For tab-locked and soft-lock combat, I'd add tracking mechanics for how the arrows are aimed at the target similar to Eve Online's turret tracking mechanics (https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_mechanics) but once the arrow is out of the bow the AoC's projectile system would take over. This way approaches in a straight line still guarantee hits but if the player or target has any angular velocity/impulse it can cause a miss and for the most part I'd think it'd feel natural. To offset for the lost of accuracy in tab-target mode, the player could switch to manual aim to lead the aim for the target for encounters where angular velocity would be pretty turbulent (close range lateral movements or ranger-player is trying to avoid being hit by a lethal ranged ability). I believe this would allow the hybrid system to harmonize the tab-lock vs manual aim better.
Another point I'd like to touch on is that manual aim in other games causes the player to easily get tunnel vision and this helps provide some counterbalance against them as it allows other hostile players/mobs to gap close them. Tab lock takes away this handicap and lets the ranger-player swing their camera around and keep the same awareness as a melee class.
For ammo, I'd like there to be some kind of micromanagement of ammo. Maybe not for general ammo but for specialty ones. For example, something you could apply to the quiver to give special buffs or debuffs. I guess this puts it at the same level as the other classes.
For the projectile aspect, I'd recommend to stress test a battlefield full of bow users to see how the server can handle it. I know New World had to convert some projectiles (namely turrets/rifles) to hitscan because it would lag out the server. If AoC can handle it, that would be great.
First of all I really hope the bow can have a more action oriented playstyle, but even tho thats a concern for me, what im even more concerned about is how boring it feels.
Overall the gameplay shown just lacks any sort of impact, the character is just there doing pew pew, animations are just so... generic and the sound is also very lacking.
Let me feel the impact of the skills that im using, improve the sound, add more animations, like a back step when using a powerful shot, etc
I suppose part of the problem is also that we are still lacking a lot of skills, so there was too much downtime just doing basic attacks, but still, what we got needs improvement.
I'm primarily a melee-oriented player, but here is some feedback on ranged attack update:
- it is important to have mobility in order to not feel too static, however more powerful damaging abilities should require the player to stay still for the duration of the cast
- really like the speed and damage gains/trade-offs between choosing short bow or longbow
- long range classes shouldn't be able to pump crazy DPS while having no movement speed penalty, unless all melee/close range classes have several ways to close the gap or slow/stun the long range class. But that would make classes more streamlined and I really think each class should feel very different from one another.
- kill time should be longer (even when taking into account that enemies were susceptible to ranged damage)
- the escape/root skill looks amazing
- overall the gameplay looked very nice, pacing looks okay, sounds and animations all good, seems like it's gonna feel good to actually play
Regarding Ranger archetype fantasy:
- If there is no Druid archetype, then merge some of that with the Ranger (like others have mentioned, connection with nature/animals, being a tracker, survival skills). But do not require a pet for a viable spec.
- Some people are suggesting Ranger to have stealth and even self-heal, that sounds too overpowered. Stealth should be pretty much exclusive to rogues IMHO.
Since I missed the feedback request for melee attack update, here goes:
- animations looked great, however I really don't like the pacing (at least how it looks that it's gonna feel), the animations should be slower (both 2h sword and daggers). It looks like the first frames of the 2h sword swing animation start slow, which gives a nice feel of 'winding-up' the attack, but the rest of the swing animation plays out way way too fast (feels like it's just a couple of frames, and dagger animations are just too crazy fast).
- in yesterday's development update Q&A section, it was mentioned that dual wielding will only be possible with certain specific combinations of weapons, gained/crafted as a 'set' and occupying both equipment slots. I really hope this gets changed, so that any class which is eligible to dual-wield 1h melee weapons and has proficiency for that specific weapon type can freely dual wield any of them (while respecting specific item limitations e.g main hand only/off-hand only/usable in both hands, of course).
If this decision is based on huge animation work overhead, then I'd rather have slightly worse/more streamlined dual wielding animations, than only being able to dual wield specific combo sets.
General
- I think we need to be careful with visual effects of abilities (applies mostly to spell casters, but in general to every class), it may look nice when there's one player and a couple of mobs, however it can very easily turn into a tasteless circus of colours. Call me old fashioned, but that's how I feel. I'm all for visual fidelity, maybe just a bit more old school with regards to intensity of visual effects in MMOs.
- Tab target vs. action combat.. Oh boy. I get why this is such a flame topic for many. Personally I'm more used to tab targeting, however the satisfaction of action combat especially with ranged classes is appealing too. But I'm really not sure how to reasonably balance this, especially in PvP.
These are my main thoughts for the time being, but all-in-all the game is shaping up looking really amazing, thank you and keep up the good work! Please be the ones to finally break the sad state of the genre and make a good MMO
I didn't see the hybrid system. I saw strictly tab-targeting and the only thing action combat was utilized for was target acquisition. As Risk-vs-Reward is a big part of what this game is about, I'm really not seeing the reward for risking a headshot or hitting any other critical part of an enemy. Or the risk in using any of the skills shown, as the game literally aim-bots everything for you. Maybe if the skills were strictly action orientated and the basic attacks were still tab-targeted? I'm just really not seeing the "hybrid" in this archetype.
Apart from that... animation, movement, sound design, and skill design, they were all good. I especially liked the work done on the rooting attack. The camera adjustment and the versatility of use for that skill will give players more options to creatively approach or evade certain scenarios. If a few skills end up performing like that across all classes, I think that'll be a big win for Ashes.
Comments
First of all I want to say - great work! It seems like the game is steadily heading in the right direction.
Second, what I'm about to say next comes not out of spite, but from my wish to Ashes of Creation to be as good of a game as possible. So here goes.
Several things I would like to point out about demonstrated ranged combat. It looks like it feels good. However, it could be even better.
For me personally, bows in CRPG's, ARPG's and MMO's are often the least appealing choice of weaponry. Simply because almost in every game it's more like a machine gun than a bow. Especially late game. I mean, come on, even Legolas can't pull out as many shots per minute! And he's constantly moving and shooting around.
In my opinion, bows should be very slow attack rate and big damage per hit to be satisfying. You prime your shot, aim, release and boom!
A good example is New World. Some players manage to make trick shots on large distance and hit their target in the head for almost entire health bar. It feels great and rewarding! Now, I know there's no headshots in AoC, but that is besides the point. The point is - firing slower, but doing big damage feels better than pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew. That's what bows, and especially crossbows, are supposed to be - high risk high reward weapons.
Then there's constant noise problem. Backdraw, release and arrow whistle. All those sounds are great in the demo. However, they get annoying pretty fast due to CONSTANT and FREQUENT shooting. Now imagine in a raid. If there's several rangers all shooting at the same time... It would drive me nuts! If the devs end up going with this attack speed for bows, I would suggest to tone down backdraw and arrow whistle sounds, but leave the release and impact sounds to be "juicy".
And lastly, Steven said there will be no ammo count. But they still could make "ammo" in a form of passive bonuses. For example, barbed arrow to deal bleed damage, armor piercing arrow, blunt arrow to stagger an opponent and whatnot. It would be nice if you could pull out a special arrow out of quiver to enhance the next shot. Like, barbed arrow + snipe = big bleed debuff. Blunt arrow + snipe = a knockback. And so on. That would be a very cool tactical choice.
Keep up the amazing work, Intrepid!
The massive problem with tab targeting without ammo it just becomes a massive assist train with one person calling the shots and the others tabbing until they find the target then just smack everything u got at that target, there is no positioning, no aiming skills its just simple.
Recent games that have come out provides somekind of skill with ranged weapons, projectiles can miss for example or get blocked by a tank. Players need to stand still to aim which is something that needs to be done in real life, you cant strafe around and still managing to hit targets, even Legolas stands still to take better aim.
Imo all ranged apart from healing should be action combat or at least have ammo so there is non of this fire and forget type of combat with heat seeking arrows/fireballs etc. I can foresee already a range meta with this kind of combat.
The contrast couldn't be starker between on the one hand an immersive, fun and impactful melee action combat we saw previously and on the other hand a rather uninspiring (not to say braindead) button mashing tab-target ranged combat we recognize from old MMO's.
The flashy moves (which I do think look awesome!) and wonderful sound effects (!) were necessary to (but in my opinion failed to) conceal the unimaginative combat style that tab-targeting is.
I wasn't planning on playing archer, so I'm not worried too much, though. For the sake of balance I think tab-targeted moves should receive damage reduction.
Immersion, impact and agency.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see archers feel like they are actually firing a bow... I did alot Archery in my life and mmos never get them right.
I dont want to feel like any other ranged class... other then the effect of these abilities its no different then any other caster or wand user... make Archers feel like archers.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
I feel like games like New World, Valheim, Medieval Dynasty get it alot closer and it helps my immersion. Aiming should matter, sure keep a hybrid system for those that do not want action targeting but atleast allow us that do want to use it to get something out of it. Increased crit chance, damage for properly aiming. Based off this demo, it seems like just another wow hunter clone and a waist of a good opportunity.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I was concerned about the over use of tab targeting and this just disappointed me...
Additional issues.
Also ammunition is a must. I feel like ammo would add so much to this game, crafters could make it, enchanter can upgrade ammo with different magical effects... not having ammo completely breaks the immersion for me.
My Questions
It was stated that when in action targeting mode, targets can run into the arrow before it hits the ground or backdrop. With this said can the arrow be dodged? Can a melee pc just side step all your arrows when closing the distance? or are our non-existing arrows homing missiles that track targets in tab targeting and not action targeting?
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I really want to emphasize how much I DON'T WANT COMBAT TO BE MORE ACTION BASED. Especially ranged combat. I just don't understand people who are not satisfied with this, and those who want to move in a more action-combat direction. This isn't an action combat game, and it wont ever be.
If arrows are projectiles (which they are), you could always avoid those attacks. Be it by going behind an obstacle, another player tanking the shot by going in front of you, etc. You could also introduce some abilities that block projectiles, so everyone saying stuff along the lines of
is simply wrong. You can miss shots, you can block/dodge them, and there's absolutely skill included. Be it by doing certain rotations, reacting to certain things by moving/dodging, or reacting by using certain abilities. Sure, it isn't on the level of pure action combat, but you can't get there without completely sacrificing and destroying tab-targeting combat. If all arrows were purely avoidable, how would you even do damage? You could just sidestep every single arrow, and dodge everything. To make it work you would need to actively immobilize/cc your targets so you could land a shot. Or, you would just make almost all abilities into AoEs,
kinda like what BDO does.
A nice middle ground, with having tab-target gameplay, ways to avoid taking damage from ranged projectiles, as well as some skillshots mixed in, is just a perfect solution. There should be no deviation from this.
Again, I'm not sure what you, and others expected. They wont go full action combat, and some things you can't just compromise on, and turn into both hybrid and action. You need those "homing" attacks, otherwise it's just action combat. Though these homing attacks shouldn't work like in more traditional tab-targeting games, where they just follow you around everywhere. You still should have the tools to avoid damage from those attacks, either by dodging, using abilities to block/avoid damage, actively blocking, moving behind cover, etc.
You should absolutely be able to fire all the abilities without having a target, in action mode. So that's the only real concern that I agree with you on.
As it is currently, it's looking amazing. Obviously we will have more abilities that require you to aim, and/or target manually (Like the 3rd ability showcased), and it's a good thing to introduce such abilities.
I'm very satisfied with how tab-targeting works, and honestly I can see myself switching to action sometimes, if I want to be more engaged. By switching to action mode, you have the ability to easily switch targets by aiming, and overall it could feel more fluid when switching between targets. It is more engaged, as besides moving and paying attention to which skills you use, you also need to actively aim at your targets.
Tab targeting portion should absolutely not change, in favor of making action combat more skill based. Sometimes I just don't want to bother with aiming, and I want a more relaxing gameplay. If I wanted to constantly aim at things, I'd play other games, not MMORPGs.
What I'm more curious/concerned about, is how the passives and general buffs/debuffs will work, how many abilities are there going to be on our ability bar, and the overall combat mechanics. GW2 for example, does a lot of things poorly in this regard, so I can't really rate their combat system very highly. Everyone is able to provide the same boons(buffs), regardless of the class they play. It's really homogenized, and there's not much uniqueness between classes in terms of passives, buffs/debuffs, etc. Also stacking in one spot to share boons/healing is just bad gameplay imo, and I don't want to ever see it in Ashes.
The main issue with that, is that in group content, everyone is stacking on top of each other. Being "ranged" is actively discouraged, as everyone just stacks in the melee range of bosses.
Other than that, I can't really comment on much. The sounds were kinda too loud, and I could see them getting annoying, especially when firing a lot of arrows.
We should have some traps for a ranger, also can be throws a mark on enemies, so if enemy Rogue he can't hide to stealth mode.
I personally like what a saw in this live stream, the visuals where stunning and the minotaur enemies’ models where a delight to see fully animated and in the game from the concepts we saw. The environment was also wonderful and truly was immersive, It will add so much to the role play value/aspect of the game so keep it up!
Combat related feedback:
Will the weather affect the archers projectiles?
Such as if there is a strong gale blowing maybe the projectiles would go further or be blown in one direction compared to another.
Now on to the divisive topic of the combat and aiming. I’ll start with confessing that I do prefer action combat, that said I think really the discussion comes down to how to balance the free aim action mode with the tab target mode.
I think the trade off should be that in tab target mode you have a percentage chance to doge the projectiles dependent on how far you are and the level of the ranger/opponent. Using the action camera would get rid of a high percentage to doge and rely on wether you are able to manually doge it or not, so if it hits it’s going to do the damage it’s supposed to. I think regional damage would also allow for more usefulness while using action combat and incentivises players to switch between both modes for that high risk high reward factor.
An example would be giving some kind of crit bonus or a stun debuff chance for hitting the head. Aiming and landing arms and legs could have a chance to give attack speed debuffs or/and movement debuffs. hitting the body would just be normal damage. the auto aim if it is centred to the body could easily have a chance of hitting the other body parts just from the movements and animation of the mobs/players, which would give tab target users a good chance of getting those debuffs and crits as well.
The tab target mode will also allow users to rest their hands after using action combat and for ease of use, I think it would be really fun if it’s viable to switch between the modes to maximise your damage and mobility.
Sadly more then likely it's PVP where TAB is going to be the most important because every attack missed is you digging your own grave.
TAB is going to ensure that there is no miss (well unless it's done mechanically behind the scenes with a hit chance roll) so having an extra layer of possible miss chance if you for some reason swing your mouse wrong or your opponent uses a movement skill and dashes out of your reticle area causing a miss is just extra misses you can't afford in comparison.
Things that I like:
- Audio is AMAZING
- Visual effects are AMAZING
- Combat direction is Perfect with the Action and Tab camera PLEASE don't try do balance them and give action mode extra incentives (No Headshots!)
- Do not rework the combat again please this is 100% the correct direction - you Won't make everyone happy so don't try to do so
- Attack speed from both ranged and melee weapons is looking good
- love the difference between weapons
Things I'd like to change
- Mobs are dying WAY to fast, decrease that for at least twice of what we saw.... TTK is absolutely Way to fast in the demonstration and now I worry that you won't deliver the 30s to 60s TTK when fighting a player - TTK is extremely important we want a longer and skilled combat and not a 5 second burst BDO combat.
- Maybe add more camera effects like shake/blur to make the combat more impactful (make it optional to lower in settings)
- Blood effects would be awesome for all the "living" mobs... if we can get blood decals on the floor or coming out the mobs - look at how Tera did blood splatter and decals... it's amazing and makes it so much more impactful this video is a good example (allow it to be turned off for the kids or people that don't like blood)
- A more visceral audio feedback when a Critical strike lands, combined with some extra blood slpatter (again, look at how Tera did it) or how Rust does the sound effect for Headshots (but please, No headshots in Ashes.. I'm just talking about the sound effect idea for Critical Strikes)
- A satisfying combat will make everyone happy, even the ones that are not big fans of the other side of the hybrid combat, that's why my suggestions above focus on that on making it Really impactful and satisfying just to kill mobs
- Don't allow people to turn off sun/lens flare/weather effect same as foliage so that positioning according to the sun is important
- I think every Mob should have some sort of CC in his kit (all should have soft CC, some should have hard CCs in every mob group pack) so you can't just run away from everything on foot or mounted
With this in mind I'll get to the point of that bows right now feels way too fast, you don't even need that quickshot skill... the only time you will see someone in archery do that is on a stationary target up close.
Personally I would think that archery should be more slow and methodical as hitting a moving target is difficult and it should hit hard.
And I hope with castle sieges etc we see proper bow range rather than an overglorified melee bow-machinegun.
Yes, you can, and you should.... games change their design all the time not making things client side even if it was better to be client side because of hackers
there exist no anti-cheat in this planet that can catch good cheats - people get caught in professional eSports using it live.
adding bad mechanics like HS not only is terrible for an MMORPG that Should have soft lock so we don't end up with a Shit tier combat like NW - but it only adds to having more cheaters in the game. big L
Combat is looking AMAZING as it is now, hopefully they stay on track.
Also i think fully drawn basic longbow shot should be more impactful, perhaps the fully drawn shot should get extra range(and damage) and could be used in action camera to aim the people outside of tab lock range(which would give more meaning to the action mode as well). Also ik it's prealpha2 but i saw few shots go through the ground and that should not be happening, playing properly around terrain for potential outplays and proper positioning is very important for ranger class(maybe even all ranged classes). This also goes to losing vision of the target behind the terrain/obstacle should break the target lock and potentially stop the cast of certain skills(maybe even put them on short cooldown as it's a failed cast). We saw only 3 very basic skills but i really hope there are more skillshot, aoe based skills which require some type of "aiming" at least straight line skillshots(Snipe skill from the stream should be aimed as well, it would give it more impact).
We didnt see any melee skills either so i hope there are some of them. Air strike also seemed like a cool skill but the startup animation is a bit too long for a kiting skill. Also the dodges from the stream didnt feel very smooth but im sure that will get polished. Also i hope for a very diverse builds with different class and weapon combinations, ex. long range high burst, long range supportish, short range debuffer, short range mobile sustained dps... Overall im happy with what i saw and i give a solid 8.5/10 for this stream. Thank you!
1) it felt like the short bow had the standard shooting attack as a potential distance creator. That felt way too easy to kite melee mobs or melee characters. Ranged characters historically have an advantage over casters, while struggling a bit more with shedding melee attackers without outside help. No matter the short or long bow, you shouldn’t be able to just run and shoot to maintain or improve your distance. It really should be fight OR flight not both at the same time. The long bow movement felt good in that aspect, so If the short bow does increase mobility by say 30%, so too should the damage suffer by at least 30% (while mobile).
2) weapon swapping. And this is true for all characters. Part of planning for battle should be selecting the correct weapon for battle prior to engaging in combat. If you’re a ranger and you have your longbow out and you need more mobility, you shouldn’t be able to instantly swap your weapon without some sort of movement and ability cooldown penalty. Perhaps all skills go into a 2 second cooldown mode and your movement has a non-cancelable action effect with limited mobility during the swap time.
3) tab targeting really felt like it set the bar really low for required skill. I don’t think you should have to be a Navy SEAL Sniper to be an effective ranger, but I think the tab based targeting is a bit too free at the moment. Reduce damage done (across all classes) if the reticle isn’t directly on the target. That doesn’t mean it has to be a huge damage difference, but enough that it drives a character to WANT to be accurate and get better. It also introduced more importance around choice and positioning. Don’t remember where enemies or obstacles are based on your surrounding? You can look around but you’ll be doing less damage while you do so. Reward players for being focused on the target and task at hand. Encourage players to challenge themselves and really set apart the ranged aspect of the gameplay from the rest
I’m becoming more and more intrigued with the combat systems and overall feel of Ashes with each development video.
As a main ranger in over 5 different MMOs, this was very exciting! The now sounds were amazing and the idea behind the range skills were spot on.
However, I would have liked to see totally different skills on the longbow vs the short bow. This would really force choice and gameplay decisions when either weapon offers a different set of skills.
While the concepts and overall utility of both weapons are as expected: Longbow being slower and allowing charged attacks vs the short bow being mobile and quickly used, there is room for skill variation. Maybe the skill trees will help with this but having a different set of base skills for the short bow would give more purpose for using it vs using the longbow.
Other than that, I’m soooo excited about all of the hard work put into this game. You guys are seriously crating something epic!!
Much respect and love to you all!!
taking or giving feedback I always focus on the negative part more which is, in my opinion, the moving one, but in general, love what you trying to do here, keep it up please and take that with a pinch of salt.
combat style (general for ranged):
To me 'action combat' for basic attacks is a terrible idea not only for melee, but for ranged as well and the reasons are simple 1. moveability which significantly drops while having to aim which leads to 2. slow combat reaction and limited environment awarness. Those reasons inveterately lead to 3. slow phasing and frustration due to player lack of (aiming) skill or in more general cases people will lack equipment because we still live in a society where 60hz monitor is a standard and for shooter style gaming you definitely need a decent high DPI mice as well, not talking about decent connection which is a must this type of gaming. Those things cost extra money I'd not personally expect to be invested in a 3rd person MMO game where gameplay is meant to be for very long term.
That's my honest opinion on this approach, yet, that applies only for basic attacks, I'd very much like to see some abilities to be action style and had to be aimed, but not because I have to, rather because they will feel good to use that way and I as a player chose the opportunity myself. And I prefer a free camera in MMO gaming in general, being locked just to see what is in front of me limits a lot.
combat style (hunter):
with that said, the 'sniper shot' is to me a perfect example of an ability that would feel very good to use in action style and had to be aimed and while aiming it could charge the animation giving me (limited) time to aim and release the big damage. That I can imagine would work perfectly alongside TAB targeting and releasing simpler cooldowns such as the one on 'number 2' in the showcase video. I see no rational reason to frustrate people to miss approx. 50% shots on a such simple ability like that one is.
Cooldowns definitely should start AFTER releasing the ability, not while pressing.
long shot (the charging one) should not do bigger damage than the regular shot, but could perhaps grant always critical and have a bigger range, but you have to stand still. I repeat again... players should not be limited by game, but because they choose or need to do it at a particular moment, you can apply this logic to any class honestly. Just think about how it feels, you put a 'sniper shot' on tab target, but the normal spamming shots you put on action style... you need to think about it as a player who will play this game for years.. this could not possibly feel good, because it always required commitment to be effective and are you always fully committed to simple tasks?
graphics, sounds, lighting, animations (visuals):
I have to say a lot better work on the animation part this time, basic attacks truly feel basic which is great, the sniper shot had a visualization of charging, which is also very good. Keep it like that guys, leave the big animation for big cooldowns, I like it very much this time.
sounds in the other hand are still slightly a problem to me, yet one more time I have to repeat, think about it as a player who plays this game daily for the very long term, you will very much likely hear that sound a lot so it might sound great now but after few days it's very annoying, at least to me it is and that strong arrow *whooosh* would drive me mad to swap to something else or quit in no time. Perhaps make the 'ability sounds' separated from everything else in settings.
the lighting looks nice from a viewer's perspective, but as a player, I can tell for sure this will be a big issue here, I played a lot of Arma and dayZ, those are simulators and there you expect to not see a target due to position of the sun, but in this game not so much.. you definitely need to adjust the lighting or make the target more visible, you can take an example from World of Warcraft, just put a shiny circle around a selected character or something.
my personal suggestions and thoughts:
I'd love to see arrows craftable by a profession that every Hunter will have, but they should not be required in abilities yet they could enhance them if players choose to use them. So for example, if nothing is done player will shoot basic arrows designed by you if crafted arrows are used they will be counted and limited by the amount player made, but can enhance the shots meaning every shot including the big ones. So if a Rogue has the same profession to make poisons for his weapons(for immersive example), he could sell those poisons to a Hunter and he could make poisoned arrows, or buy element essence from a mage and enhance arrows with fire etc. I'd not be mad if it's done somewhat like that, because it could be beneficial if some extra time and afford is spent and I just love those types of optional min-maxing.
peace!
Players who use action mode should have a longer maximum range, and the ability to snipe down people who move outside the target lock range. That's the whole point of aiming instead of auto targeting.
In close range combat, tab targeting is king.
Arrows should not disappear when they fly beyond the limit of max distance tab targeting. Arrows should (depending on the type of bow and charge time) work like in real life (horizontal shot-physics).
Giving multiple options is the best solution when people can't agree on a single best strategy or approach.
The bow being pulled back and released sounded so good!
I loved the mobility of the class. I may be stereotyping, but a Ranger class to me should always be one of the most mobile classes in any game.
Damage and mobility are probably the most important aspects of a Ranger's attacks for me. They need to be able to hit, but not so strong that they're the only class people play. I don't think Ranger's should be able to use every weapon type, at least not with ease or be great at it. There should be certain weapons they are able to use easily and others that are not so great, but still an option if the player wants to use them for aesthetic reasons.
I loved that you could MISS your shots! Tab targeting has its place but being able to either miss or hit something out of tab range is an awesome possibility.
GW2 had great weapon attacks for its classes. Some of them were showcased in this video, like jumping over an enemy while shooting. That's the kind of mobility and damage I'd like to see.
The only thing I'm concerned about is how many mobs were pulled while he was running around. For a mobility class, with low health, mob density seems like it could become an issue. I know that's also a fun aspect of the game, but it can also become tedious if it is too frustrating.
Both the melee and ranged combat feel really good as far as I can tell. I do like that the major abilities have to have some kind of targeting skill in order for their use to be maximized. I like that a lot. I just dont want every shot to have to have targeting skill like in a FPS. That is what made the combat of Crowfall not so fun. When you are in a huge PvP battle and the players are going every which way, its hard to get the best focused shots everytime. I like a good mix of tab targeting and aimed mechanics like in Guild Wars 2 or Tera. I like that balance. and I know Steven and Intrepid do too. I absolutely love the high jump and AoE ability of the ranger! I hope to see more of these high fantasy abilities in other classes like the mage or cleric. Asmongold had said that he thought the text above the mobs was hard to read sometimes, and I agree, though I assume what we see now is not the final product and just a place holder?
Is what we saw, in terms of the spellcasting of the Minotaur shamans a good indicator of how basic spellcasting will be in the future alpha 2 build of the game?
Starting with the stuff that's perfect already: I love this kind of reticle, soft-lock system (similar to GW2 and BnS). The visuals, sound, and pacing of most of the attacks are great. And I liked what I heard about the longbow and shortbow differences, but I would have to see more to really judge those gameplay choices.
I think the time-to-kill is pretty good, but maybe on the low end for solo gameplay. Both the player and monsters didn't seem to have much health. But maybe that's just because this was a DPS class vs. mage enemies, like mentioned in the video. In context it's probably fine, but I would hope there are some meatier targets out there as well.
I do have some nitpicks about the leaping ability, though. It felt somewhat awkward at first, I think because it's essentially two abilities, but was presented as a single long one. Like, to me, it looked more like a leaping dodge, followed by a burst of shots, but the visuals and sound effects (and camera movement?) blurred it into a mush. Ideally, I would make it more punctuated to show off the two effects, or just make the whole thing faster if it's meant to be an acrobatic blur. Also, the initial sound effect was just pretty bad for a leap (expecting more of a "swoosh").
But as a person who does archery I have some thoughts want to share to developers, and please note that I don’t know everything I only know what I know, I just giving feedbacks base on what I know and how do I feel about it.
I love that how you guys design the difference between short bow and long bow, to me it feels like the difference between using a short bow with short draw length around 26-28 inches and a longer bow with max draw length around 30-33 inches, short bow can do shots faster and keep the mobility because of the short draw length and the bow size and long bow can charge to do more damage but will move slower both because of the longer draw length and to keeping the full draw to squeeze whole power out of the bow.
But when I saw the skill snipe, I feel that you should do more, should make 3 different type bow: short, medium, long.(I want to make more detail about different bow type but I guess it won’t be fun to the most of players so I simply add one more bow type.)
Short bow stay the same, which bow length under 50 inches and safe max draw length under 29 inches. But I watch the bow update video again, I can’t really say I like animation abuot draw apart the short bow.
Pulling the string/bow or drawing apart animation should be like using both back and arm strength like 50:50 on both right and left side to pull the bow apart, which means the bow hand and the bow shouldn’t always stay at the same position in the whole time, in full action the bow hand will be look like doing jab toward the target and the draw hand normally will looks more like how you animate the draw hand in long bow animations.
Or if the short bow shooting style you use is like these, well I think it make sense:
but I personally use both side strength to draw bow apart when I need to shoot fast.
Long bow charge mechanic in ranged weapon update video start with medium bow category, which bow length around 50-75 inches and/or safe max draw length up to 33 or 34 inches for example, yes I’m trying to make medium size bow and long bow into same category.
Add Japanese bow “yumi” as a new long bow category(or say sniper category), the reason why yumi could become a new long bow is it may stand as a part of culture of Ren’kai because Ren’kai is the tallest race in Ashes of Creation and the tattoo on new male Ren’kai concept art keep reminds me about Japanese yakuza if Ren’kai going to have some Japanese culture in it please consider add yumi to be long bow category, and yumi is a type of bow can be made in very long bow length from 83 to 96 inches with very long draw length from 31 to over 41 inches and still able to perform shots easily while one knee down without tilting the bow, and it’s perfect to further develop the play style focus on charge mechanic and base on skills like snipe, for example short and medium bow using snipe will be standing and only yumi able to be one knee down and have further benefit such as the ranged attack from opponent will have more chance to miss or less chance to crit while using snipe with yumi because the target is smaller.
These videos for you as references in case if you are interesting in yumi and considering to add it in game:
So it will be like short bow focus on mobility, medium bow start to have charge mechanic to have more play style than short bow, long bow yumi is more like a sniper play style with able to sacrifice more mobility to have further charge power and to max out damage and able to take out the opponent with minimum shots a little bit like how charger works in Splatoon.
I think that players need to craft arrows to prepare for contents is too detailed, I feel the quiver idea that Steven mentioned in video is very good, it can be like quiver automatic craft arrows for player just by automatically consume the materials in player's bag and the quiver can give enchant effect to arrows to do more different things base on the quiver type and level so just think it’s a magic quiver, for example a quiver made from some monster have poison characteristic which will allow the quiver to craft poison arrows for player to use, and player should able to equip multiple quivers in the same time and switches from one to another base on situations and with cooldown or something, to me a ranger from 2 to 4 quivers is normal and over 4 to 6 quivers I will say great and over 6 quivers maybe a class like ranger + ranger should able to, it’s will be like how coating works for bow in Monster Hunter, and please NOTE that the quiver I mentioned is those able to hold arrows stable in position the kind of quiver for example:
Or some UNCOMMON quiver that we don't see in history books:
and telling players that quiver is magical quiver will automatically craft arrows has another benefits which is that if you allow player to decide how many quivers he/she want to equip on the character it doesn't have to put heavy amount of arrows in quiver to represent how many arrows are there in the quivers and feel more clean and natural if a character equip multiple quivers in stead of making it looks silly but as I know equip multiple quivers is doable and it's a real thing in history at least in my region.
The arrow sound is not real to me, I know that whistle arrowhead would make sound like that and yumi will also make a sound when the string hit the string stopper because of the materials and that sound make lots of people misunderstanding that sound is the sound of arrow flying through the air, but I don’t have a greater idea as an alternative option because real arrow don’t make too much noise and it’s why bow and arrows are good for hunting, at least the sound could be tune down a little bit in my opinion.
Holding the full draw or say charging animation is good I can feel it’s a powerful bow through the shaking hands, but the draw hand looks not good you should pick some draw method and just stick with them like thumb draw and slavic draw are the ways able to draw and stable the arrow on the arrow pass and the arrow won’t go every where while moving around, it’s not which is better way you have to research on what pose using what draw way feels more natural, and the shoulder position is wrong:
It’s too hard to explain this properly because English is not my native language, I just link a video for you to refer:
Some release animations are good some are not, for example:
the draw hand can or should be like how Japanese archery does on release which means fully stretch the draw hand and arm for example:
and this shot:
the bow hand move is weird I don’t know the arrow is on which side of the bow but in animation seems on right side always so the bow hand shouldn’t be like that when release it will hit the arrow and make the shot miss the target it should be a khatra instead, and this:
is bad too like I said before that pulling the bow is not only use hand or shoulder or back if it need a archer will use the whole body to draw faster steady and smooth like in this video:
and I also notice you put some kind khatra staff in bow hand animations so I want link more videos for you to refer in order to understand more about khatra to put khatra into animation better and increase the variety of khatra:
Hope these videos help you to make all action better.
And please note that there are tons of different techniques and alternatives to make the original techniques fits more for individuals and most of time they are no right or wrong but there still are things definitely bad or wrong to do in traditional archery such as the bow shoulder was pushed away or up from or into the socket by bow will cause injury.
These videos for you to understand what I mean "there are tons of different techniques and alternatives to make the original techniques fits more for individuals" about:
This video for you to make bow feel more realistic:
For the shooting sound effect maybe try the string swipe through air sound like this:
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7Qe4qq0KCmV70O_l09q9UDThgM-3DJM4
Or the feather sound when arrow travel through the path sometime feather make a small sound by touching the arrow pass even it was a clean release, if you don't feel good after trying all these, this one I can't find any example.
The last option is yumi sound that string hit the string stopper will make a sound some good some not some high some low you have to find which you think fits the specific bow, and the sound is different between every yumi and different archer means same yumi can makes different sound by different archers.
example:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxewhuFyn9_LS_xv_p-mVI4PVC0Q3SZpDL
Last sound is arrow hit on the target, the sound I saying is at beginning.
It's a sound made by the glove and the string and string hit the string stopper(yes not every yumi make the sound on release), the glove called yugake/ゆがけ/弽 the glove have a little thing like a nail to hold the string, the sound is made by the string scratch the nail thing at the beginning then the string vibration then hit the string stopper and the bow vibration in the end.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Have you watched the 4K version on Youtube? If not, maybe it was just Twitch's downgrade of the video quality.
My only complaint about the entire footage was the twang of the bow. I liked the sound of it but it was way to loud it was all i could hear and kind of annoyed me.
Another point I'd like to touch on is that manual aim in other games causes the player to easily get tunnel vision and this helps provide some counterbalance against them as it allows other hostile players/mobs to gap close them. Tab lock takes away this handicap and lets the ranger-player swing their camera around and keep the same awareness as a melee class.
For ammo, I'd like there to be some kind of micromanagement of ammo. Maybe not for general ammo but for specialty ones. For example, something you could apply to the quiver to give special buffs or debuffs. I guess this puts it at the same level as the other classes.
For the projectile aspect, I'd recommend to stress test a battlefield full of bow users to see how the server can handle it. I know New World had to convert some projectiles (namely turrets/rifles) to hitscan because it would lag out the server. If AoC can handle it, that would be great.
Overall the gameplay shown just lacks any sort of impact, the character is just there doing pew pew, animations are just so... generic and the sound is also very lacking.
Let me feel the impact of the skills that im using, improve the sound, add more animations, like a back step when using a powerful shot, etc
I suppose part of the problem is also that we are still lacking a lot of skills, so there was too much downtime just doing basic attacks, but still, what we got needs improvement.
- it is important to have mobility in order to not feel too static, however more powerful damaging abilities should require the player to stay still for the duration of the cast
- really like the speed and damage gains/trade-offs between choosing short bow or longbow
- long range classes shouldn't be able to pump crazy DPS while having no movement speed penalty, unless all melee/close range classes have several ways to close the gap or slow/stun the long range class. But that would make classes more streamlined and I really think each class should feel very different from one another.
- kill time should be longer (even when taking into account that enemies were susceptible to ranged damage)
- the escape/root skill looks amazing
- overall the gameplay looked very nice, pacing looks okay, sounds and animations all good, seems like it's gonna feel good to actually play
Regarding Ranger archetype fantasy:
- If there is no Druid archetype, then merge some of that with the Ranger (like others have mentioned, connection with nature/animals, being a tracker, survival skills). But do not require a pet for a viable spec.
- Some people are suggesting Ranger to have stealth and even self-heal, that sounds too overpowered. Stealth should be pretty much exclusive to rogues IMHO.
Since I missed the feedback request for melee attack update, here goes:
- animations looked great, however I really don't like the pacing (at least how it looks that it's gonna feel), the animations should be slower (both 2h sword and daggers). It looks like the first frames of the 2h sword swing animation start slow, which gives a nice feel of 'winding-up' the attack, but the rest of the swing animation plays out way way too fast (feels like it's just a couple of frames, and dagger animations are just too crazy fast).
- in yesterday's development update Q&A section, it was mentioned that dual wielding will only be possible with certain specific combinations of weapons, gained/crafted as a 'set' and occupying both equipment slots. I really hope this gets changed, so that any class which is eligible to dual-wield 1h melee weapons and has proficiency for that specific weapon type can freely dual wield any of them (while respecting specific item limitations e.g main hand only/off-hand only/usable in both hands, of course).
If this decision is based on huge animation work overhead, then I'd rather have slightly worse/more streamlined dual wielding animations, than only being able to dual wield specific combo sets.
General
- I think we need to be careful with visual effects of abilities (applies mostly to spell casters, but in general to every class), it may look nice when there's one player and a couple of mobs, however it can very easily turn into a tasteless circus of colours. Call me old fashioned, but that's how I feel. I'm all for visual fidelity, maybe just a bit more old school with regards to intensity of visual effects in MMOs.
- Tab target vs. action combat.. Oh boy. I get why this is such a flame topic for many. Personally I'm more used to tab targeting, however the satisfaction of action combat especially with ranged classes is appealing too. But I'm really not sure how to reasonably balance this, especially in PvP.
These are my main thoughts for the time being, but all-in-all the game is shaping up looking really amazing, thank you and keep up the good work! Please be the ones to finally break the sad state of the genre and make a good MMO
Apart from that... animation, movement, sound design, and skill design, they were all good. I especially liked the work done on the rooting attack. The camera adjustment and the versatility of use for that skill will give players more options to creatively approach or evade certain scenarios. If a few skills end up performing like that across all classes, I think that'll be a big win for Ashes.