I think you absolutely nailed the visuals. 90% of the flair and impact of this class looks to come from animation and sound design, rather than relying on overwrought VFX. I can see 100 of these guys peppering a battlefield from atop a rampart without it looking like an obnoxious lightshow. 10/10, no nits to pick.
As far as the action/tab dichotomy, I don't have very strong feelings on it. While I definitely prefer action combat, it's not a dealbreaker so long as melee stuff remains more action-oriented.
loved the ranged combat showcase, having a lock on for action mode is a big plus for me as thats something thats lacking in hybrid systems and gives people using the action mode a disadvantage. so thanks for putting that in. an action mode like this will lead to faster combat imo and im all for it.
Adding some additional input after reading through mostly everything that was posted (well, skimmed, let's be honest, 8 pages worth), and hopefully clarify some things a bit better. than my previous post.
First of all, just want to say thanks to Intrepid for developing Ashes, and reaching out and taking constructive feedback from their followers, as a MMO lives and dies by its population and community, also equally as frustrated with the genre as Steven, and want to thank him for everything.
Based on everything I've read, let's keep it civil people. No need to bash on someone else's opinion, but I urge everyone to look at both sides of the coin here, as well as balance both perspectives.
Firstly, the comparison to the ranger and melee showcase. It's a fair assessment that the melee combat showcase favors a more action orientated style, as you have to aim your autos in the direction of the mob (with it being AOE dmg), as well as the AOE hammer skill that was shown. Whereas the Ranger showcase was on the complete opposite end, being a completely tab centric playstyle. It's a bit polarizing on two different ends of the spectrum. Now I know it is a hard dance to balance an archer...But will add why the current iteration needs modifications, with hopefully some insight on both to make it actually fair and balanced for both sides of the spectrum.
I will say I do not envy the position Intrepid is in here, this is a very difficult system to execute and make sure both sides are happy, without being a detriment to the game...After all, this game will live and die by its combat...It is everything considering the PvP nature of the world and risk vs reward. I'll hopefully be able to express my thoughts, concerns, and solutions for both sides (tab and action community). But I do want to say to the community, please have an open mind, and actually think deeply on how one style affects the other. The amount of "I'm going to be playing tab anyways", or "Doesn't affect me" statements/mentality I've seen around in chats, forum, and discords is honestly pretty disheartening. We are a community after all, that is the sole driving force of MMORPG's that has been missing over the past two decades of MMORPG's.
TAB -
In the current form for the ranger, the combat is exploitable in the favor of a tab user, as I mentioned in my previous post. Quick summary, locking a target, running away, and jump 180 attacking while freight training away from the target will be a reality. So as stated previously, removing the ability to shoot and jump, while also adding a slow during each attack will add some balance to the archer. ATM, it's just too much kite capabilities (Which is definitely a thing and infuriating going up against such), especially with the coupling of positional relocation skills such as the one displayed. It is too much movement, which is a detriment to PvP balance, which is the pivotal factor in ashes. The Risk vs Reward mentality should play into combat as well, and being able to do what was demonstrated with the short bow is definitely the wrong path forward as they had no movement penalty, with the addition of major movement skills in their pocket arsenal. I believe slowing down while executing autos/skills, will be a nice balancing factor, stronger on the longbow, slightly weaker on the short. Alternative movement/damage skills to make sure they have a good balance of risk vs reward, that infuses tactical elements into the gameplay. For example, a skill that shoots an entangling arrow towards the ground in front of the archer, slowing targets affected by it, while the ranger flips or windmills back a few meters during the release animation. There should definitely be perma rooted skills of course, such as the snipe ability, and throwing out of a rain of arrows, these should not be mobile, which the snipe ability did do correctly.
But I have to digress, the current system has no benefit of being in Action/Reticule mode, as locking a target and running with a quick turn to shoot is more beneficial. Manual aiming in action mode and backing away from the target is less efficient, as you move slower backing up, and can't create the distance unlike the tab/lock run turn and fire mindset, especially if you couple jumping for momentum into the mix to remove any form of forced slow during attacking, hence why it shouldn't be allowed and removed.
Action -
As I'm a proponent of aiming with a more action orientated stance. I do wholeheartedly believe that having aim orientated attacks is the appropriate approach in MMO's now-a-days. This is coming from someone who has played for 20+ years, and started on tab target. I would heavily stay away from the super-fast paced combat like BDO, but take Tera's pacing as a good example.
The main question is, how do you balance this and make it fair to both sides?
The current melee weapon update has already shown a more hands on approach for combat, that is designed for an action orientated style. Positioning your forward attacks and camera for the hammer smash skill, basic attacks orientated in the direction of the enemy. This was definitely the right approach, and I see it working great, ESPECIALLY with the addition of locking a target. I would’ve done this exactly the same way, as I can see an assassin class picking his target, locking, and using a single target backstab/deadlyblow skill on a single individual, that even if in a clump is insured the right target. That is the correct execution in making a hybrid system that feels rewarding and can still function. As all other action mmo's end up normally being an everything is AOE dmg style, which is not the best system IMO. The shift to this tab centric for the archer that was displayed was off putting in the least, as both melee and range are going in two different directions now. I can see the locking element working nicely for single target skill shot usage, which is what I was hoping to be the case during the reveal.
In terms of action, from what I've read from other posts, it has to be balanced and fair people. No headshots what so ever...This caters completely to the AIM/FPS genre of crowd, and this is definitely not New World. To make the system fair, I believe having an aim orientated style is the correct route for the archer, as the melee showcase already has shown a nice and invested direction in combat. To balance things out for the ranger, have a healthy and generous hitbox. No need to be super precise and have pinpoint accuracy on the enemy model. Just overall being fair, where if someone is clearly way off the target, it should miss. Give a decent amount of filler on the hitbox to be fair to both sides of the community. As stated, no headshots, but just your standard RNG crit mechanics relying on your characters build/gear. This is a fairer approach that once again, looks at both sides of the coin and grades them evenly. The current system shown just made no sense being able to blind fire in reticule mode to show its action combat, when the system is so heavily favoring tab players. That is not a compromise, it's in fact a bit insulting. I know Steven didn't mean anything by it, he has a very difficult dance that needs be done with this type of system, and it's hard to please both crowds. The current system is a detriment to anyone who even thinks of using reticule mode as an archer in the current state, that is not balanced fair play. Last thing I want is another "Meta Build/Method" MMO....tired of that frankly. The combat systems need to be folding into one another, which it isn't with what was displayed for the archer.
I do believe that manual aiming is the correct approach and adds a lot to the impactful nature of PvP. Makes it more meaningful and invested than the run, jump, and hit skill shortcuts type of gameplay. As well as the stand still and repeatedly press the same button rotation we have seen from tab target MMO's of the past and current. With the current design of the melee combat being more action suited, this direction will pair nicely with the archer as it would follow suit and offers cohesion, and not be a 180 redirect as was shown yesterday. Locking a single target, and proceeding to aim a snipe skill on said person, in a cluster of people with a generous hitbox will work, and solves the problem of the "everything is AOE" in action combat. While also offering those who haven't dived into the depths of action style mmo's the leniency of aim precision. The aim orientated style also brings benefits, which hopefully showcases in the system of active blocking. Active block would definitely be difficult to code in a system with a tab/single target dmg. Blocking would be rendered mostly for individual purposes only, when they see something coming and choose to block...Deep down, I was really hoping to see the depth that action mmo blocking brings, such as a tank able to put up his shield and block incoming projectiles, and protect those behind him. Would’ve made for some great PvP, as well as PvE protection as well, and instills a need for group/guild play with having an active front line. Could already picture a tank targeting an ally, and casting a skill that leaps forward few meters to his ally, spinning in front while bring up his shield into an active block state, while his ally is pushed behind him. Allowing the damage to be absorbed by the tank from incoming snipes, projectiles, wands, etc. This type of system has been executed in certain action MMO's and feels great to have this versatility, and adds a sense of worth for the tank role. In terms of the blocking damage, whether he takes mitigated damage, or eventually breaks his guard (resource for blocking), would be design decisions...But tab target mmo's can't really execute this type of system, as the damage is rendered to the target and done when a target is selected, and button is pressed, and server calculates.
At the moment, from what I'm seeing, definitely looks like a bit of an identity crisis in combat direction. We are going to have melee classes playing with closer cameras and aiming the direction of their attacks, and archers with zoomed out cameras looking top down, and just pew pew'ing away like the tab MMO's of old...that isn't a hybrid system...That's two different systems in the same MMO...which is not appealing or balanced. I've already experienced the imbalanced nature of tab target mmo's and range classes in the past, would hate to see it happen again due to this tab centric archer demo...Especially in a game that I see as the last saving grace for the genre.
Much appreciated for everything regardless, you guys at intrepid are heroes of the Genre, just glad I'm able to drop my comments and be heard just like the rest of the community...Which by what we've seen from the last 20 years of MMO's, has been something that has been lacking with the spoon fed dribble they have given us.
I am a little concerned about how the high mobility of the class in this demonstration will be balanced for pvp, and I hope that a lot more thought is being put into it than simply "melees should use a gap closer or a CC". While that was a valid strategy in a game like ArcheAge, that's because the TTK in that game was so low that you could kill an archer within a single gap close/CC combo. If the TTK in this game is indeed 30 seconds or more in pvp, I'm not sure what recourse a melee player would have against an archer, who can run and jump while shooting like this, once their gap close and CC are on cooldown.
To be clear, I am not at all suggesting a lower TTK for this game. I hated how low it was in ArcheAge as I felt that there wasn't much skill involved, the winner was largely just whoever attacked/CCed first. I like the higher TTK, but I think it's necessary to point out that it will affect how certain strategies helped to balance classes in other games.
I know it has been stated that this games pvp won't be balanced around 1v1, and I get that, it would be impossible to make 64 classes all balanced against each other in a 1v1 situation. However, if entire archetypes have clear superiority over others, that would be very discouraging.
Obviously the game isn't out yet, we don't know how it will play, so this might be a non issue. I just hope that some level of balance is being considered carefully.
I liked it a lot, however I think the game would benefit from a third mode: completely free aim, with stuff like headshots and so what being possible. I'm a bow main in almost every game in which there is bow, but I hate the feeling of not aiming. It completely breaks the immersion for me, and things like weak spots (which can be placed in different parts of different monsters, to add more to gameplay mechanics for instance).
For me the best reference for gameplay in general is the monster hunter series. The best bow (and almost any weapon) mechanics ever are there.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
In terms of basic ranged weapon attacks, I feel it is important to feel a sense of fluidity and momentum through each shot or chain of shots. It's not something so tangible as "Oh, shoot five arrows and the enemy is dead," but more so if it's a basic attack and will be used frequently if not nearly all the time outside of regular skills, is it fluid? Am I feeling the momentum of drawing the bowstring back? The animations are already phenomenal and the impact of the arrows are just hoogity boogity so good. As an example what probably not to do would be LOTRO, which is my current MMO. The animations are stiff, I hardly feel the impact of the arrows from one skill to another as the hunter class.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I am very much wanting to see that balance of sacrificing the necessity for movement over putting out big damage. I again reference LOTRO's hunter class here, as in the current endgame raid, a hunter is the most optimal dps, despite being locked down for a solid portion of their skills. However in a certain portion of the final boss of the raid, movement is a necessity if you want to stay alive, however dps still has to be done to additional mobs in the boss fight. So what do you do? You run, use skills you can on the move, stop for a moment, use skills that plant you or we just call them skills with an induction, then move some more, and so on. It requires a level of skill that I have begun to truly appreciate.
Other utility skills I really enjoy of ranger/hunter classes are the ability to track mobs, as well as to create campfires to heal themselves and party members in the wilderness. An idea for tracking mobs, since if you track lets say a 'Wild Boar,' it would normally show up as a red dot on the minimap. If instead the tracks of the Wild Boar became illuminated or partially highlighted on the ground so you had to manually follow those tracks instead of just walking to a dot on the minimap, that would be sick.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Lol again referencing the hunter class in LOTRO, the most similar example of a basic range weapon attack would be the Hunter's Quick Shot ability. Upon using the quick shot ability once, it gives you a buff of I think -10% induction time, so your big hitting skill like Heart Seeker goes from a 1second induction to .9 seconds (just an example). This quick shot buff can tier up to -30% and lasts for five seconds, so if I do not use quick shot at least once every five seconds, I lose this buff and therefore lose a great deal of damage. This is something that I feel is done well in another game, requiring the use of a basic skill in order to increase damage output.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Excited to see what you guys come up with, I really enjoyed the animations and visuals of everything! The mobs looked absolutely gorgeous in the environment, so please keep up that good work. My only concern was the sfx of the shooting was a little nagging after a time, but not a dealbreaker.
I just would like to share some of my random thoughts and observations as I watch the youtube video.
- I like the UI, class logo looks nice
- hope we can have bigger compass, the one within the minimap is not really enough, but as minimalistic design for some it's nice
- not sure if its font or lighting in the background, but enemy name tags are hard to read sometimes
- hope we can personalize display of effects in name tags
- buff/debuff icons are the biggest element in name tag
- I'd like to immediately see what buffs/debuffs target has, seems no visual difference between them, would be nice to highlight buffs/debuffs my character caused
I like how GW2 solved it, buffs are orange with white border, debuffs gave red border, something like that would be nice
- really love overall atmosphere of the area
- details on the stone ruins are amazing
- trees seems to be all straight, no curve, not much diversity in them
- lighting can be a little overwhelming sometimes, hard to see things and name tags
- ingame models of both bows look amazing
- I like sound of drawing the bow string
- I can imagine the sound of arrows being quite annoying after time, especially the high pitch noise, but I like it more than dislike
- bow sounds generally maybe too loud (customizable?)
- would be nice to have some diversity of basic attack sounds, maybe to some extent customizable (during crafting?, or "cosmetic" type of arrow with different sound)?
- projectile impact sound is nice
- crit sound seems a little weak, I feel like it may get unnoticed when there are a lot of sounds present. Personally I liked crit sound in L2
- I generally love this hybrid combat iteration
- hard / soft target visualization not prominent enough for me personally (customizable?), can we get highlight of whole body outline and symbol on top of them differentiating soft vs hard target?
- is there strict line of sight check? at one point it seemed to hit through hill (but maybe its just tall vegetation)
- I like theme of all 3 skills showcased
- camera on the jump skill seems a little too much, zoom out is too much, it seems that its preprogrammed camera movement. Personally I like to be in absolute control of my camera. I would prefer to have it just follow the body without any zoom-out and let me control it in the process.
- also the jump skill has a huge telegraph in the beginning. In PVE I don't see a problem but in PVP it seems to lose its purpose if it takes too much long to start moving.
I don't like the idea of animations limiting movement, I would prefer giving other classes skills to fluently counter that instead.
- similar thing I noticed in general dodge roll, it is not fluent, there is pause in the start, also the execution of the roll looks unnaturally perfect every time
- personally I like the current rate of HP regen when outside of combat, it's annoying to wait when out of combat
Minotaurs look amazing. Time to kill is fine for me. Especially considering them being weak to arrows and being single player content.
I guess my feedback seems a lot more negative that positive but I am really impressed overall with latest stream, I really love how it all looks and the direction this game is going.
Showcase was good, I'm fairly new to AoC but from my 500d+ /played on a wow hunter mainly in arena pvp followed by trickster maining in AA I can see the vision and where you want to try introduce action into the hybrid system.
I'm a fan of tab, for any balancing tab is generally just more manageable than action and that's that. Balance > catering to a specific combat type.
That said if you're introducting hybrid I think you had to go a little bit further. I know all skills aren't revealed yet but the fact that Snipe is pure tab target rather than pure action(an argument for projectile vs hitscan) or a forward facing templated ability free from tab is generally bad news for those future skill reveals.
MMO combat is stale, we need a new combat system and I truly believe that action combat is the future but for now pure action is a mistake, no one has managed to do it correctly yet and people aren't used to it, leaving hybrid systems as a pathway. So once again I see the vision, appreciate the vision but also ask if steps back make it easier to see the future?
A few people in this thread have some genuinely important points made and I hope they are considered as genuinely as they are made.
Tl;dr - tab target hunter main likes tab target but sees action combat as the future if done correctly(which it hasn't been). See's value in the hybrid but thinks more skills should abide by an action ruleset(i.e. Snipe should be free aimed to... Snipe). Not sure how that would be seemlessly done between both cameras though.
Liked - Mainly tab, Action camera, Mobility tied to class, visual feedback on arrow fire(screen shake)
Disliked - Some free aim/templated abilities being soft-lock, general mobility animations look a bit stiff(very important to the feel of combat)
After further thinking, here is some feedback on what I believe could be the a happy medium amidst the whole controversy of Tab vs Action.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
If you argue hitting "3" on your keyboard takes more skill then "looking at some ones direction, tracking, prediciting their movement and hitting 3" is the same amount of reaction.
YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED A ACTION GAME IS YEARS. Or actually being purposely ignorant.
Now times that with all your other skills and see how that adds up.
Again. Your talk shows inexperience in tab PvP gameplay. Turning your camera and autotarget with action combat takes less thinking than assigning arena 1,2,3 target makros to your PvP opponents that change with every match. So with every match you have a different situation. while tab pvp is fast paced you cannot allow yourself to cc the wrong target. Its not like you press tab and you automatically target the right enemie. Therefore you have makros which need some training and skill to be used in the right way. If you wanna succeed in tab PvP you surely cannot be a slow minded person
Imagine talking about inexperience and bringing up a scenario no one is talking about with matches. Even if i did amuse this comment I'd say its laughable that you would have a hard time selecting someone in a arena...Those are the most easy situations to select and attack your target in tab.
This point isn't what I'm talking about, what I'm talking about is COMBAT if you are targeting this one person in area and kite back you don't need to look at them to attack you simply hit your skills and they all land.
There shouldn't be a scenario where you CC a wrong target that is impossible in a tab game....If you have issues using tab fast or selecting a target I'm unsure what to say. I've never seen a situation where someoen cc'd the wrong target in a tab game.....
These poitns you are bringing up TELL that you clearly are making up stories, and trying to discredit my experience playing TAb mmorpgs since EQ1. This is because you simply just are bias and want action combat to flop in the game, has nothing to do with design or balance. Soy ou will purposely give bad information as far as i see it.
TAB games that have added aoe effects over time is them using action elements because it adds more difficulty and fun to the game compared to tab auto target everything...It is the natural progression of mmorpgs as tab was do to technology limitations that don't exist that strongly anymore...
"Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?"
It's disappointing to see were still stuck on the outdated tab target system after all these years. I was expecting most of the attacks/abilities to require at least some level of aiming with the cross-hair, but clearly that's not the case. I thought the entire point of making this game was to move the MMO genre forward?? This type of combat isn't moving us forward, it's leaving us where we've been for over 20 years. We've had the tech for it, now It's time to move on.
What was presented was a tab target system pretending to be action combat. I think it's a mistake to have 2 combat modes because players will ALWAYS choose what is more effective/easier, and that is an auto aiming minimal effort tab target system. Why would anyone bother using the "action combat" mode when you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage to someone that isn't? What we saw with tab target mode is you can run around freely with zero movement penalty, not having to aim or even look in the right direction and just mash buttons with near 100% accuracy. The tab targeting mode should be removed completely as well as hard locking because it gives too much of an advantage to already privileged ranged characters. Soft locking is fine because it still requires the player to aim in a targets general direction without having to be as precise as say a shooter game. In doing so it also restricts/slows movement since players will have to actively look at the target compared to running at a full sprint with enemies trailing behind them mindlessly slinging arrows. I liked the abilities that were shown and their animations but they should be skill shots, no auto aiming.
Edit: I don't think soft lock should be as forgiving as it is in ESO or even how it was in the demonstration, nor should it be as difficult as it was in New World to hit people in PvP. Somewhere in the middle would be perfect to where you actually have to aim at the character model and it's still possible to dodge projectiles. I'd even be open to no lock at all and having a generous hit box instead. My concern is the high mobility combined with gap closers, movement skills, being able to spam dodge roll and change directions instantly while running, it will be almost impossible to hit people in PvP, even worse than New World and I don't want that for an MMORPG. Not to mention how high latency and lag spikes will play negatively into all this
I also feel that giving aimed shots a slightly further range, and possibly even a higher crit chance. I feel it would be a really cool effect for the class. It gives a reason to do a trick shot, while allowing you to essentially revert into a more normal mmo combat.
I was worried that ranged combat might be difficult to balance, due to all the factors that can influence aiming a projectile in an MMO. Latency is among one of them. This form of hybrid combat is something I feel most people will find to be familiar, while also keeping external factors to a minimum in large scale combat. It is a good selection of basic attacks!
Having projectiles intercepted by first target to collide with them is something that will be interesting to see as a game mechanic. I would like to see how that might play a role in how tanks operate and give meaning to stationing rangers in elevated areas.
I absolutely love the idea of tanks being able to intercept projectiles with just their positioning!
As a player that has advocated for more tab target combat the latest combat video satisfied me alot.
You want to make a game that the masses finds fun and can play at a decent level. not a niche game where only those that are good at FPS will be able to do PvP at any decent rate.
Another problem you would definatly have ALOT of problems with would be aimbots.
There seem to be alot of New World players here that advocates for that type of combat, when a big reason why players quit New World was just becouse of the bad combat.
Also, action combat shouldnt have any advantage in terms of dmg.
I dont want a situation where groups are looking for only action combat players to maximize dmg in raids etc.
Ive practised archery myself and it glad you made the arm positioning more realistic than before, good work on that. (some hold it at the eye, some at the mouth)
You generally hold the string with 3 fingers, one above the arrow and 2 bellow.
Might be to many sounds but the string also makes a "bong" sound when you shoot.
I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say
Steven and the others have said that since start.
"If hybrid combat doesnt work and we have to choose well go with tab target" was said in one of the early QA videos.
Your work is amazing guys.
Several ides:
1) I think that ever1 would like to see quivers where the arrows are taken out of to make the archer gameplay more esthetic.
2) I hope and would like to see the skills not being ground locked. I mean, if an archer uses an escape skill so he can get to a rock (like in WOW or archeage) and the GCD is very impoprtant in this skills also, sometimes you lose more distance because of the animation or GCD than you get.
3) The rangemeter is one of necessary things for archer aswell, so we can calculate our abilities and keep the proper distance. You could just add the distance nearby the HP bars.
4) The last thing that concerns bows is their balance. I mean that bows should be for mobility, or controlling, or dealing huge DMG. For example in Archeage, as you have similar class system, nobody plays with the bow as a secondary weapon as it can support your main weapon, so there are no melee archers or mage archers, because the DMG of bows is hardly stuck to 1 stat, bows don't have necessary control or mobility.
Hello! I am a ranger main in most MMOs I've played. I'm also one of the top rangers in Guild Wars 2 for PvP and compete at a high level several different games.
The combat showcased in the demo was excellent! Here are my thoughts:
What I Liked:
The different bows having unique strengths and weaknesses (ig. attack speed vs. power). It reminds me of Guild Wars 1s take on bows. This is an interesting mechanic and can do a lot towards making each bow have a distinct playstyle and feel. Leaning into this is a good idea.
Moving while shooting is excellent. I appreciate the different movement speeds for running forwards, strafing, and backpedaling. This is how Guild Wars 2 functions and it makes the ranged combat dynamic and fun!
The hit sounds are satisfying!
The ability to jump while attacking is fantastic and makes combat feel more natural.
Hybrid tab-action combat is the best! Guild Wars 2 does exactly this.
Good But Needs Improvement:
This dodge roll is significantly better in comparison to the quick dash showed in the last demo with the melee weapons. However, the dodge roll animation makes the camera stop and shift forward very quickly https://youtu.be/GjEP4P5vDZI?t=1083. This can induce motion sickness easily. My eyes hurt immediately after watching several rolls. Dodge rolling should move the player the same amount of distance they would be able to travel if they were to run forward, in the same amount of time it would take (see how Guild Wars 2 does it). This keeps the camera steady and makes dodge rolling feel smooth. Losing camera control and having the player's perspective getting jerked around in a stop-move fashion during basic actions can make people extremely nauseous. Also, the camera stopping when the dodge starts makes it look and feel clunky. The roll should start immediately so the camera can continue moving at the same speed.
If the jump shot is a defensive skill, the delay on the animation start is way too long https://youtu.be/GjEP4P5vDZI?t=2350. If there are crowd controls in PvP, a skill like that would be basically unusable as good players will be able to interrupt a long cast consistently. It would feel way better if the jump happened immediately after the player pressed the button. Long animation windups before the skill actually goes off makes the combat feel artificially slow and unimpactful.
What I Dislike:
The knockback animation is strange https://youtu.be/GjEP4P5vDZI?t=1078. The legs move really fast when getting knocked backwards. In Guild Wars 2, a knockback is a hard crowd control so you lose control over your character when under the effects. When hit by one, they get knocked down briefly while being sent back before quickly standing up again. This makes the crowd control ability feel more impactful.
Arrows shooting through terrain https://youtu.be/GjEP4P5vDZI?t=1098. Properly implemented line of sight to obstruct ranged attacks is EXTREMELY important for good combat. I'm a ranger main but I should not be able to nor would I want to be able to shoot through walls or terrain like the hill in the timestamp.
What I Want Like To See:
Keeping the majority of animation timers in quarter second intervals (1/4s, 1/2s, 3/4s, 1s). This helps players learn consistent timing and anything above 1s should be far and few between or reserved for channeled skills.
An about-face keybind functioning similarly to Guild Wars 2. Camera control is important and manually panning the camera to look behind your character as you're running away feels and looks extremely clunky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjEP4P5vDZI&t=1067s.
Stay away from ranged gameplay focusing heavily around changing arrow types for extra damage (ie. imbuing arrows with fire, ice, poison, etc.) Instead, design skills that have a specific purpose in combat such as a:
Knockback arrow to push an enemy away
Directional evasive shot to leap in a certain direction
Volley of arrows to deal damage and slow down foes in a wide area or to hit behind line of sight
Smoke arrow to obstruct vision
Targeted fast-traveling arrow that can stealth the player on a successful hit
Fan of arrows that deals more damage the closer the player is to their target
Quick interrupting shot that deals low damage to CC important skills
A channeled rapid fire of arrows
Etc.
Skills like these are interesting because they can be used for a multitude of different reasons. There are creative ways to change how you fight and are NOT simply "extra damage" or "fire arrows."
To give examples of this:
A knockback arrow can be used to create distance from a dangerous melee attacker. However, it can also be used to knock an enemy into your teammates so they can hit them more easily. Or, it can be used to knock enemies off of a ledge or to force them out of position.
An arrow that stealths the player on a successful hit requires good timing to land, but can be used to reposition to create or close distance.
A quick interrupting shot that deals low damage would be useful for interrupting enemy offensive skills such as a melee leap (to stop an engage or disengage) or to prevent an enemy mage from casting an important spell.
As usual, you guys are knocking it out of the park with visuals and graphics. There is definitely too much sound. The arrow flight sound just makes for too many sounds per shot. Release and hit (ie, useful feedback where a blocked arrow would sound different than a normal hit and a crit also different) should be enough.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I think the demo covered what I consider basic attacks: snipe and quick shot. I appreciate the variety afforded by having the option to hold-and-charge both attacks with a longbow, and the quicker/more mobile attacks from the shortbow. But with mobility needs to come less instant damage, and perhaps overall DPS can remain the same with DoT ramp up on shortbow vs slower movement + harder-hitting attacks on longbow. You might want to consider more separation of movement speed between the weapons. I felt that the daggers vs 2h-sword had a larger difference.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
In general I'd like to see a wilderness theme (traps, tracking, camouflage, poison/debuff both applying and removal, but not a class based pet) to go along with the bow, as well as a minor melee option. I am not a fan of being able to shoot a bow while someone is hitting you with a melee weapon. That doesn't mean I want a minimum range, but rather have melee attacks interrupt any "charge-up" bow abilities.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I like the setup of melee (and short range attacks?) being untargeted and single target ranged attacks having tab-lock or action-lock. A cone AE multishot should not be tab-locked.
A "sniper stance/mode" which disables target-lock and allows for player aimed shots to deal extra damage would not work IMO. This would become mandatory for raid content, since large bosses are very easy to hit and headshot. Large hit boxes ruin the risk-vs-reward PvE calculation of player-aiming. The mechanics of lag and aim-bots ruin the PvP calculation in other ways.
General stuff
On a separate ranged PvP topic: Kiting vs counter-kiting. This is a tough balance of cooldowns for both sides, even if it's not a 1-1 balanced game. You can't have Rangers able to pink someone to death and dodge-roll away from the melee unscathed. Likewise, you can't have melee able to charge, snare and stick to ranged like glue. I look forward to your solution to this.
In this encounter, TTK is low and the combat looks far too easy even against ideal mobs. A good attack chain would kill these minotaurs before they got halfway to the player, and a well-timed dodge would avoid all of their ranged damage during that time. Be careful making mobs too slow, and if players can cast while moving, I don't see any reason why mobs (that are caster/melee) couldn't either.
Will Rangers have any resource they need to manage so that they can't just tee-off all their ranged cooldowns right away? IE, mana, energy, rage, ultimate, builder/spender, etc?
Alot of comments on the combat system.
I've played both tab targeting and action combat. I've seen good and bad iterations of both.
You are not going to satisfy everyone regardless but please whatever way you go, do it well. Make it the best thing about this insane potential game.
Combat will be what makes or breaks this game.
It looks like you are aiming for a true hybrid combat system. Make it completely seamless switching between both forms so when you play it at the highest potential, you are better of using both forms of combat depending on the scenario rather then one or the other. This in conjunction with allowing either forms of combat to be used at all times for those who prefer that specific combat type regardless of min/maxing performance will give the combat appeal across preferences and skill levels.
Personally i mainly just don't want to have auto-guided projectiles that make 360 ° curves, pass through obstacles before hit the aimed target.
And i want to be able to dogde it (with a dash or a roll for exemple) and block it.
Plus i would like if you could aim at least on some skills.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Not the same type of game so it will maybe be useless to mention, but i like the range gameplay in conqueror's blade, all attacks have actual "impact" on ennemy, you have a range auto-attack (left click) and a melee auto-attack (right click), some skill are melee too. You have dodges, traps, explosive arrow/bomb, dash.
And you have a good differences of gameplay between each ranged weapons.
Would you guys consider doing specialty arrows, maybe as a type of weapon augmentation or something? When I DM for my D&D group, I have a house rule that regular ammo/arrows are unlimited and don't have to be tracked, but I also sprinkle in the possibility of finding rare enchanted or unusual material arrows which I would give to them in a limited quantity and they would have to keep track of. I'm not sure the best way to implement this, and it may not make sense mechanically or from a balance perspective, but I think it's a super cool idea and would love for it to be mulled over at least.
The game looks amazing so far. Keep up the great work
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Even though I personally wanted the option for a full shooter-type mode, without the soft-locking, it still looks great. The debate is probably not open for your team, but if that were included with even the slightest of benefit over tab-targetting, that would've been my ideal situation. I wanted to fully RP the Ranger archetype and feel my identity align with my ability to aim.
If my arrow could land longer distances for reduced damage only through aiming, even that would satisfy me.
At this point, I no longer feel like maining a Ranger, so it's sad for me. Still, it looks like fun and will definitely be satisfying for others. The Hybrid option looks sweet through. I'll most likely be favoring that over tab-targeting.
My dreams to successfully mix my two loves (FPS and MMO's) will not happen for a long time, but the game looks exciting and the direction is understandable.
P.S. Slightly longer TTK would be nice (assuming it's an equal level fight). The minotaurs didn't quite feel like a threat unless Steven was swarmed.
Will the projectiles of a ranged weapon ignore the hitboxes of partied members? this seems especially important for dungeons and raid bosses, given the large number of players required to beat them.
Positives
I liked the hybrid combat system on display, it seems very intuitive and is a good way to keep players from both styles of game comfortable with combat in AoC (and I come from action combat style games and thought this display looked similar enough to be comfortable, but given how many commenters didn't like it, perhaps it will take hands on testing to see how it feels and performs).
Steven's explanation of how auto attacks will feed into rotations by setting up procs to compliment big skills was probably my favorite part of the ranger demo livestream, as this seems like a far more engaging and impactful way of handling basic attacks than most games have. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out when we see the skill trees he was referring to and during alpha 2 testing.
Things to work on
We didn't see a whole lot about the actual skill tree differences between shortbows and longbows during the demonstration, but I hope they will feed into the feel of the weapons that we saw displayed so clearly:
-The longbow is a slow, hard hitting weapon. I'd use it during sieges or raids and other situations when I don't expect to be moving and shooting. As such, I'd hope it's skill tree reflects these natural use cases, perhaps offering damage bonuses to physical penetration, structures/siege equipment, and boss type monsters. And because you are taking the time to aim as part of the charge up for your attack, it seems intuitive to have a bonus to critical chance or the damage of a critical hit on the longbow.
-The mobility offered by the shortbow makes it seem better suited for skirmishes, fights around caravans, and fighting mob packs like Steven was doing in the demo. As such, skills that root or slow the enemy while you maneuver around seem the most intuitive, as do damage bonuses to aoe skills, and a reduction in skill cooldowns for fast paced fights against multiple opponents.
This is my first post in the AoC forums as after the ranged combat shown, I couldn't possibly be more excited.
I wanted to provide my feedback in relation to the Archery specifically as I am a sporting/hunting archer in a range of disciplines & an uber geek for fantasy / game related content.
Liked:
- Bow audio feedback 10/10. LOVE the draw creak, flight whistle and impact. This audio profile gave the arrow a very swift, raw kinetic feeling. (there was power behind the arrow which not many games replicate accurately)
- Arrow vapor trail 10/10 (this actually happens when we shoot in the rain and or have wet fletches) really liked this a lot.
- Bow limb flex when drawn 10/10
- Ranged attack distance & Arrow speed also very nice.
- Hybrid combat system was nice, it still looks engaging, the attack tempo was impressive.
- Overall bow aesthetic design - quite nice.
- Bow type choices - Longbow / Shortbow (awesome) looking forward to seeing crossbows etc in the future.
- Attention to detail for fingers when drawing bow 1 above 2 under
- Bow slightly canted when drawing & shooting while standing 10/10
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (no target engaged)
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (enemy/agro engaged)
- Character form when using the bow (Looked quite nice and accurate).
- Airstrike skill was flashy and fun
- Snipe as a skill has to be my favorite
- Quick shot was awesome
Feedback:
- Could it also be possible that when using snipe, your overall distance will increase further at max draw/charge than the default tab range? penetrate targets? or both?
- Snipe Skill (Assuming the draw style was 1 above and 2 under with the arrow on the left side of the bow):
- Bow might be better off remaining canted when drawn, to avoid bow limbs touching the ground and also arrows must rest correctly in such a draw to avoid falling off the shelf (blue line represents a possible angle)
Similar to this next image from BotW
(IF the draw of snipe is using thumb draw with the arrow on the right side when drawn, the character and bow behavior is already true to form and can remain as is without sacrificing attention to detail)
Bow Design:
(I love them, as for game bows, they're probably some of the nicest and most accurate)
- Small piece of feedback (this is no biggie) string nocks are usually at the end of the limbs where the reflex sits so max power can be achieved. (Red is current, green is recommended)
Arrows:
- When the bow is drawn it would be nice to see that an arrow is nocked, as drawing/releasing an un-nocked bow is not only immersion breaking for the weapon, its also extremely dangerous to do that irl haha. Bow limbs often snap / explode when there is insufficient energy transfer into a correctly spined/present arrow.
**note** Please note that the arrow is rested on the left side of the bow as the character is using a Mediterranean draw. 1 above 2 under
- It would be nice to see a nocked arrow when the bow is in the players hands (while agro is engaged)
- Having no arrow nocked when the character is just standing there idle (no threat present) is fine.
- Arrows being stuck in targets is also something I would personally desire, I know it might be resource intensive and thus maybe capping a 3 arrow limit stuck in a monster at any given time would be reasonable.
**Quick Update / Query**
- Having re watched the Ranger showcase video, I get glimpses of a nocked arrow when drawing, this might already be implemented and certain angles just makes it harder to view.
its feint, but it appears to be present.
Quivers:
-The addition of a quiver for some armors would be nice, placed on the lower back or hip ideally. Back quivers though popularized in media are a little corny (though some might disagree). Please see image below from BotW.
(By having the quiver on the hip as traditionally seen in archers from the Eurasia and East, it gives you unimpeded movement & easy access to the arrows without struggling for reach)
**Note** Links form in the image above, though ok, is not accurate because the arrow is on the left side. For this to be accurate the arrow should have been on the right side. String twist would force the arrow off the shelf to the way he is drawing it in that image.
(potential idea only)
- Enchanted Arrows / Bows for different status effects EG:
- Fire/Poison bows/Arrows - Apply a slow burn or HP loss DoT
- Lightning/Bodkin - Apply amour pen / bleed
- Ice bow - apply a slowing effect onhit / heavy
- Blunt arrow - applies fractures / stuns
Games I found with engaging & mostly accurate bow gameplay:
- Dark Souls / Elden ring (Enjoyed the Bows here) only complaint is that arrow speed was too slow and could do with a tune.
- Ghost of Tsushima: (Well rounded bow gameplay) Nice arrow speed in most cases & bow design.
- Genshin Impact: (Charged Shots) these feel satisfying much like (snipe) the arrow speed, achievable distance and overall character draw form are pretty good. There are a couple of characters who's forms are horrid, and its usually when theyre holding the bow like this fella;
- Destiny 2: (Arsenic Bite Bow) was modeled after a Recurve bow IRL and played well in game. The others are too futuristic to apply any meaningful feedback (arrow speeds sometimes acted as hitscans)
- Overwatch (Hanzo): - At full draw the arrows behaved alright, speed was decent. (The complaint I have here is that the bow felt like it didnt provide any power sort of like a toy).
- 7 Days to Die: (Decent arrow speed for Recurve & Compound the actual bow design / aesthetic left much to be desired) - Distances were too short. Might have been an engine limitation though.
- League of legends (Ashe, Twitch, Varus, Vayne) - All played well for a moba standard, the sound profiles here were pretty cool with Ashe being my favorite for her auto attacks.
- Zelda Breath Of the Wild: Bow design was very well done, Arrow speed was (ok) could be faster. Sound profiles were pretty good. Satisfying to use.
Games that I did not enjoy bow gameplay:
- Raft: i felt like the bow itself was a noodle. Arrow speed was incredibly slow and trajectory calculations horrendous.
Gameplay Feedback:
As we haven't had the ability to play AoC with the updated Melee & Ranged combat, its difficult to determine whether or not balance is present. Players just want to ensure that the class they choose is on 'equal' footing against other classes provided that (Both) players are equally skilled and or mechanically gifted.
*Of note*
Arrows aren't slow or sluggish, out of a well tuned 50lb draw weight bow, you can punch arrows out to 70m+ in a second, bows used in the medieval era's were 80lb-175lb in draw weight.
My personal bows:
Olympic 190-215 Feet Per Second (50lb)
Hunting Recurve - 210-219 Feet Per Second (55lb)
Compound 300+ Feet Per Second (60lb)
Traditional Yew longbow - 175-190 Feet Per Second (95lb)
Yumi / Asian horn bows - 190-209 Feet Per Second (50lb)
General:
The environment is beautiful. I am gobsmacked. 100/10. Seriously, this entire studio has achieved what other AAA / Corporate studios haven't been able to replicate. There is LIFE. Butterflies, fireflies, birds, dew, wind, light, texture, weather, depth and TRUE scale. Nothing looks like a prop or is misplaced, its all part of a bigger picture and makes everything feel real.
Looking forward to the future of AoC!
Thank you Steven & the entire Intrepid studios team.
This is my first post in the AoC forums as after the Ranged combat shown, I couldn't possibly be more excited.
I wanted to provide my feedback in relation to the Archery specifically as I am a sporting/hunting archer in a range of disciplines & an uber geek for fantasy / game related content.
Liked:
- Bow audio feedback 10/10. LOVE the draw creak, flight whistle and impact. This audio profile gave the arrow a very swift, raw kinetic feeling. (there was power behind the arrow which not many games replicate accurately)
- Arrow vapor trail 10/10 (this actually happens when we shoot in the rain and or have wet fletches) really liked this a lot.
- Bow limb flex when drawn 10/10
- Ranged attack distance looked really nice
- Hybrid combat system was nice, it still looks engaging, the attack tempo was impressive.
- Overall bow aesthetic design - quite nice.
- Bow type choices - Longbow / Shortbow (awesome) looking forward to seeing crossbows etc in the future.
- Attention to detail for fingers when drawing bow 2 above 1 under
- Bow slightly canted when drawing & shooting while standing 10/10
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (no target engaged)
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (enemy/agro engaged)
- Airstrike skill was flashy and fun
- Snipe as a skill has to be my favorite
- Quick shot was awesome
Feedback:
- Snipe Skill (Assuming the draw style was 2 above and 1 under with the arrow on the left side of the bow):
- Bow might be better off remaining canted when drawn, to avoid bow limbs touching the ground and also arrows must rest correctly in such a draw to avoid falling off the shelf (blue line represents a possible angle)
(IF the draw of snipe is using thumb draw with the arrow on the right side when drawn, the character and bow behavior is already true to form and can remain as is without sacrificing attention to detail)
Bow Design:
(I love them, as for game bows, they're probably some of the nicest and most accurate)
- Small piece of feedback (this is no biggie) string nocks are usually at the end of the limbs where the reflex sits so max power can be achieved. (Red is current, green is recommended)
Arrows:
- When the bow is drawn it would be nice to see that an arrow is nocked, as drawing/releasing an un-nocked bow is not only immersion breaking for the weapon, its also extremely dangerous to do that irl haha.
Bow limbs often snap / explode when there is insufficient energy transfer into a correctly spined/present arrow.
- It would be nice to see a nocked arrow when the bow is in the players hands (while agro is engaged)
- Having no arrow nocked when the character is just standing there idle (no threat present) is fine.
Quivers:
-The addition of a quiver for some armors would be nice, placed on the lower back or hip ideally. Back quivers though popularized in media are a little corny (though some might disagree).
(potential idea only)
- Enchanted Arrows / Bows for different status effects EG:
- Fire/Poison bows/Arrows - Apply a slow burn or HP loss DoT
- Lightning/Bodkin - Apply amour pen / bleed
- Ice bow - apply a slowing effect onhit / heavy
- Blunt arrow - applies fractures / stuns
General:
The environment is beautiful. I am gobsmacked. 100/10. Seriously, this entire studio has achieved what other AAA / Corporate studios haven't been able to replicate. There is LIFE. Butterflies, fireflies, birds, dew, wind, light, texture, weather, depth and TRUE scale. Nothing looks like a prop or is misplaced, its all part of a bigger picture and makes everything feel real.
Looking forward to the future of AoC!
Thank you Steven & the entire Intrepid studios team.
Excuse my French but absolutely fucking awesome. Love the direction, pace, sounds and animations. Would be cool to have some flexibility on the placement of the snares during the aerial skill. So keen to get in and play. GIVE US A2!
Keep up the amazing work.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I really loved what was presented and can't wait to see how the rest of the Hunter skills will be fleshed out with the system.
Comments
As far as the action/tab dichotomy, I don't have very strong feelings on it. While I definitely prefer action combat, it's not a dealbreaker so long as melee stuff remains more action-oriented.
First of all, just want to say thanks to Intrepid for developing Ashes, and reaching out and taking constructive feedback from their followers, as a MMO lives and dies by its population and community, also equally as frustrated with the genre as Steven, and want to thank him for everything.
Based on everything I've read, let's keep it civil people. No need to bash on someone else's opinion, but I urge everyone to look at both sides of the coin here, as well as balance both perspectives.
Firstly, the comparison to the ranger and melee showcase. It's a fair assessment that the melee combat showcase favors a more action orientated style, as you have to aim your autos in the direction of the mob (with it being AOE dmg), as well as the AOE hammer skill that was shown. Whereas the Ranger showcase was on the complete opposite end, being a completely tab centric playstyle. It's a bit polarizing on two different ends of the spectrum. Now I know it is a hard dance to balance an archer...But will add why the current iteration needs modifications, with hopefully some insight on both to make it actually fair and balanced for both sides of the spectrum.
I will say I do not envy the position Intrepid is in here, this is a very difficult system to execute and make sure both sides are happy, without being a detriment to the game...After all, this game will live and die by its combat...It is everything considering the PvP nature of the world and risk vs reward. I'll hopefully be able to express my thoughts, concerns, and solutions for both sides (tab and action community). But I do want to say to the community, please have an open mind, and actually think deeply on how one style affects the other. The amount of "I'm going to be playing tab anyways", or "Doesn't affect me" statements/mentality I've seen around in chats, forum, and discords is honestly pretty disheartening. We are a community after all, that is the sole driving force of MMORPG's that has been missing over the past two decades of MMORPG's.
TAB -
In the current form for the ranger, the combat is exploitable in the favor of a tab user, as I mentioned in my previous post. Quick summary, locking a target, running away, and jump 180 attacking while freight training away from the target will be a reality. So as stated previously, removing the ability to shoot and jump, while also adding a slow during each attack will add some balance to the archer. ATM, it's just too much kite capabilities (Which is definitely a thing and infuriating going up against such), especially with the coupling of positional relocation skills such as the one displayed. It is too much movement, which is a detriment to PvP balance, which is the pivotal factor in ashes. The Risk vs Reward mentality should play into combat as well, and being able to do what was demonstrated with the short bow is definitely the wrong path forward as they had no movement penalty, with the addition of major movement skills in their pocket arsenal. I believe slowing down while executing autos/skills, will be a nice balancing factor, stronger on the longbow, slightly weaker on the short. Alternative movement/damage skills to make sure they have a good balance of risk vs reward, that infuses tactical elements into the gameplay. For example, a skill that shoots an entangling arrow towards the ground in front of the archer, slowing targets affected by it, while the ranger flips or windmills back a few meters during the release animation. There should definitely be perma rooted skills of course, such as the snipe ability, and throwing out of a rain of arrows, these should not be mobile, which the snipe ability did do correctly.
But I have to digress, the current system has no benefit of being in Action/Reticule mode, as locking a target and running with a quick turn to shoot is more beneficial. Manual aiming in action mode and backing away from the target is less efficient, as you move slower backing up, and can't create the distance unlike the tab/lock run turn and fire mindset, especially if you couple jumping for momentum into the mix to remove any form of forced slow during attacking, hence why it shouldn't be allowed and removed.
Action -
As I'm a proponent of aiming with a more action orientated stance. I do wholeheartedly believe that having aim orientated attacks is the appropriate approach in MMO's now-a-days. This is coming from someone who has played for 20+ years, and started on tab target. I would heavily stay away from the super-fast paced combat like BDO, but take Tera's pacing as a good example.
The main question is, how do you balance this and make it fair to both sides?
The current melee weapon update has already shown a more hands on approach for combat, that is designed for an action orientated style. Positioning your forward attacks and camera for the hammer smash skill, basic attacks orientated in the direction of the enemy. This was definitely the right approach, and I see it working great, ESPECIALLY with the addition of locking a target. I would’ve done this exactly the same way, as I can see an assassin class picking his target, locking, and using a single target backstab/deadlyblow skill on a single individual, that even if in a clump is insured the right target. That is the correct execution in making a hybrid system that feels rewarding and can still function. As all other action mmo's end up normally being an everything is AOE dmg style, which is not the best system IMO. The shift to this tab centric for the archer that was displayed was off putting in the least, as both melee and range are going in two different directions now. I can see the locking element working nicely for single target skill shot usage, which is what I was hoping to be the case during the reveal.
In terms of action, from what I've read from other posts, it has to be balanced and fair people. No headshots what so ever...This caters completely to the AIM/FPS genre of crowd, and this is definitely not New World. To make the system fair, I believe having an aim orientated style is the correct route for the archer, as the melee showcase already has shown a nice and invested direction in combat. To balance things out for the ranger, have a healthy and generous hitbox. No need to be super precise and have pinpoint accuracy on the enemy model. Just overall being fair, where if someone is clearly way off the target, it should miss. Give a decent amount of filler on the hitbox to be fair to both sides of the community. As stated, no headshots, but just your standard RNG crit mechanics relying on your characters build/gear. This is a fairer approach that once again, looks at both sides of the coin and grades them evenly. The current system shown just made no sense being able to blind fire in reticule mode to show its action combat, when the system is so heavily favoring tab players. That is not a compromise, it's in fact a bit insulting. I know Steven didn't mean anything by it, he has a very difficult dance that needs be done with this type of system, and it's hard to please both crowds. The current system is a detriment to anyone who even thinks of using reticule mode as an archer in the current state, that is not balanced fair play. Last thing I want is another "Meta Build/Method" MMO....tired of that frankly. The combat systems need to be folding into one another, which it isn't with what was displayed for the archer.
I do believe that manual aiming is the correct approach and adds a lot to the impactful nature of PvP. Makes it more meaningful and invested than the run, jump, and hit skill shortcuts type of gameplay. As well as the stand still and repeatedly press the same button rotation we have seen from tab target MMO's of the past and current. With the current design of the melee combat being more action suited, this direction will pair nicely with the archer as it would follow suit and offers cohesion, and not be a 180 redirect as was shown yesterday. Locking a single target, and proceeding to aim a snipe skill on said person, in a cluster of people with a generous hitbox will work, and solves the problem of the "everything is AOE" in action combat. While also offering those who haven't dived into the depths of action style mmo's the leniency of aim precision. The aim orientated style also brings benefits, which hopefully showcases in the system of active blocking. Active block would definitely be difficult to code in a system with a tab/single target dmg. Blocking would be rendered mostly for individual purposes only, when they see something coming and choose to block...Deep down, I was really hoping to see the depth that action mmo blocking brings, such as a tank able to put up his shield and block incoming projectiles, and protect those behind him. Would’ve made for some great PvP, as well as PvE protection as well, and instills a need for group/guild play with having an active front line. Could already picture a tank targeting an ally, and casting a skill that leaps forward few meters to his ally, spinning in front while bring up his shield into an active block state, while his ally is pushed behind him. Allowing the damage to be absorbed by the tank from incoming snipes, projectiles, wands, etc. This type of system has been executed in certain action MMO's and feels great to have this versatility, and adds a sense of worth for the tank role. In terms of the blocking damage, whether he takes mitigated damage, or eventually breaks his guard (resource for blocking), would be design decisions...But tab target mmo's can't really execute this type of system, as the damage is rendered to the target and done when a target is selected, and button is pressed, and server calculates.
At the moment, from what I'm seeing, definitely looks like a bit of an identity crisis in combat direction. We are going to have melee classes playing with closer cameras and aiming the direction of their attacks, and archers with zoomed out cameras looking top down, and just pew pew'ing away like the tab MMO's of old...that isn't a hybrid system...That's two different systems in the same MMO...which is not appealing or balanced. I've already experienced the imbalanced nature of tab target mmo's and range classes in the past, would hate to see it happen again due to this tab centric archer demo...Especially in a game that I see as the last saving grace for the genre.
Much appreciated for everything regardless, you guys at intrepid are heroes of the Genre, just glad I'm able to drop my comments and be heard just like the rest of the community...Which by what we've seen from the last 20 years of MMO's, has been something that has been lacking with the spoon fed dribble they have given us.
To be clear, I am not at all suggesting a lower TTK for this game. I hated how low it was in ArcheAge as I felt that there wasn't much skill involved, the winner was largely just whoever attacked/CCed first. I like the higher TTK, but I think it's necessary to point out that it will affect how certain strategies helped to balance classes in other games.
I know it has been stated that this games pvp won't be balanced around 1v1, and I get that, it would be impossible to make 64 classes all balanced against each other in a 1v1 situation. However, if entire archetypes have clear superiority over others, that would be very discouraging.
Obviously the game isn't out yet, we don't know how it will play, so this might be a non issue. I just hope that some level of balance is being considered carefully.
For me the best reference for gameplay in general is the monster hunter series. The best bow (and almost any weapon) mechanics ever are there.
In terms of basic ranged weapon attacks, I feel it is important to feel a sense of fluidity and momentum through each shot or chain of shots. It's not something so tangible as "Oh, shoot five arrows and the enemy is dead," but more so if it's a basic attack and will be used frequently if not nearly all the time outside of regular skills, is it fluid? Am I feeling the momentum of drawing the bowstring back? The animations are already phenomenal and the impact of the arrows are just hoogity boogity so good. As an example what probably not to do would be LOTRO, which is my current MMO. The animations are stiff, I hardly feel the impact of the arrows from one skill to another as the hunter class.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I am very much wanting to see that balance of sacrificing the necessity for movement over putting out big damage. I again reference LOTRO's hunter class here, as in the current endgame raid, a hunter is the most optimal dps, despite being locked down for a solid portion of their skills. However in a certain portion of the final boss of the raid, movement is a necessity if you want to stay alive, however dps still has to be done to additional mobs in the boss fight. So what do you do? You run, use skills you can on the move, stop for a moment, use skills that plant you or we just call them skills with an induction, then move some more, and so on. It requires a level of skill that I have begun to truly appreciate.
Other utility skills I really enjoy of ranger/hunter classes are the ability to track mobs, as well as to create campfires to heal themselves and party members in the wilderness. An idea for tracking mobs, since if you track lets say a 'Wild Boar,' it would normally show up as a red dot on the minimap. If instead the tracks of the Wild Boar became illuminated or partially highlighted on the ground so you had to manually follow those tracks instead of just walking to a dot on the minimap, that would be sick.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Lol again referencing the hunter class in LOTRO, the most similar example of a basic range weapon attack would be the Hunter's Quick Shot ability. Upon using the quick shot ability once, it gives you a buff of I think -10% induction time, so your big hitting skill like Heart Seeker goes from a 1second induction to .9 seconds (just an example). This quick shot buff can tier up to -30% and lasts for five seconds, so if I do not use quick shot at least once every five seconds, I lose this buff and therefore lose a great deal of damage. This is something that I feel is done well in another game, requiring the use of a basic skill in order to increase damage output.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Excited to see what you guys come up with, I really enjoyed the animations and visuals of everything! The mobs looked absolutely gorgeous in the environment, so please keep up that good work. My only concern was the sfx of the shooting was a little nagging after a time, but not a dealbreaker.
- I like the UI, class logo looks nice
- hope we can have bigger compass, the one within the minimap is not really enough, but as minimalistic design for some it's nice
- not sure if its font or lighting in the background, but enemy name tags are hard to read sometimes
- hope we can personalize display of effects in name tags
- buff/debuff icons are the biggest element in name tag
- I'd like to immediately see what buffs/debuffs target has, seems no visual difference between them, would be nice to highlight buffs/debuffs my character caused
I like how GW2 solved it, buffs are orange with white border, debuffs gave red border, something like that would be nice
- really love overall atmosphere of the area
- details on the stone ruins are amazing
- trees seems to be all straight, no curve, not much diversity in them
- lighting can be a little overwhelming sometimes, hard to see things and name tags
- ingame models of both bows look amazing
- I like sound of drawing the bow string
- I can imagine the sound of arrows being quite annoying after time, especially the high pitch noise, but I like it more than dislike
- bow sounds generally maybe too loud (customizable?)
- would be nice to have some diversity of basic attack sounds, maybe to some extent customizable (during crafting?, or "cosmetic" type of arrow with different sound)?
- projectile impact sound is nice
- crit sound seems a little weak, I feel like it may get unnoticed when there are a lot of sounds present. Personally I liked crit sound in L2
- I generally love this hybrid combat iteration
- hard / soft target visualization not prominent enough for me personally (customizable?), can we get highlight of whole body outline and symbol on top of them differentiating soft vs hard target?
- is there strict line of sight check? at one point it seemed to hit through hill (but maybe its just tall vegetation)
- I like theme of all 3 skills showcased
- camera on the jump skill seems a little too much, zoom out is too much, it seems that its preprogrammed camera movement. Personally I like to be in absolute control of my camera. I would prefer to have it just follow the body without any zoom-out and let me control it in the process.
- also the jump skill has a huge telegraph in the beginning. In PVE I don't see a problem but in PVP it seems to lose its purpose if it takes too much long to start moving.
I don't like the idea of animations limiting movement, I would prefer giving other classes skills to fluently counter that instead.
- similar thing I noticed in general dodge roll, it is not fluent, there is pause in the start, also the execution of the roll looks unnaturally perfect every time
- personally I like the current rate of HP regen when outside of combat, it's annoying to wait when out of combat
Minotaurs look amazing. Time to kill is fine for me. Especially considering them being weak to arrows and being single player content.
I guess my feedback seems a lot more negative that positive but I am really impressed overall with latest stream, I really love how it all looks and the direction this game is going.
I'm a fan of tab, for any balancing tab is generally just more manageable than action and that's that. Balance > catering to a specific combat type.
That said if you're introducting hybrid I think you had to go a little bit further. I know all skills aren't revealed yet but the fact that Snipe is pure tab target rather than pure action(an argument for projectile vs hitscan) or a forward facing templated ability free from tab is generally bad news for those future skill reveals.
MMO combat is stale, we need a new combat system and I truly believe that action combat is the future but for now pure action is a mistake, no one has managed to do it correctly yet and people aren't used to it, leaving hybrid systems as a pathway. So once again I see the vision, appreciate the vision but also ask if steps back make it easier to see the future?
A few people in this thread have some genuinely important points made and I hope they are considered as genuinely as they are made.
Tl;dr - tab target hunter main likes tab target but sees action combat as the future if done correctly(which it hasn't been). See's value in the hybrid but thinks more skills should abide by an action ruleset(i.e. Snipe should be free aimed to... Snipe). Not sure how that would be seemlessly done between both cameras though.
Liked - Mainly tab, Action camera, Mobility tied to class, visual feedback on arrow fire(screen shake)
Disliked - Some free aim/templated abilities being soft-lock, general mobility animations look a bit stiff(very important to the feel of combat)
Looking forward to seeing its progress.
My proposal (to be taken and considered and further developed if needed):
- Basic attack = tab targeted
- Skills (Snipe, Aerial Assault, templated attacks) = must be aimed in action camera mode
This way you keep a basic tab target core and still have some (or all) skills requiring some level of mouse dexterity. No headshots however, that's just silly in an MMO, especially one where races have such wildly different hitboxes and sliders. We don't wanna end up in a situation like AION where people made characters the size of ants, because they'd be impossible to hit in PvP (or they'd make their head smaller to avoid headshots).
A hard lock being ON with the reticle would then only allow a skill to hit the intended target when 2 different players or mobs may be overlapping to some extent (basically not allowing the systems to erroneously select a different target when they're both within the reticle), and not being a real homing beacon for your attacks.
Imagine talking about inexperience and bringing up a scenario no one is talking about with matches. Even if i did amuse this comment I'd say its laughable that you would have a hard time selecting someone in a arena...Those are the most easy situations to select and attack your target in tab.
This point isn't what I'm talking about, what I'm talking about is COMBAT if you are targeting this one person in area and kite back you don't need to look at them to attack you simply hit your skills and they all land.
There shouldn't be a scenario where you CC a wrong target that is impossible in a tab game....If you have issues using tab fast or selecting a target I'm unsure what to say. I've never seen a situation where someoen cc'd the wrong target in a tab game.....
These poitns you are bringing up TELL that you clearly are making up stories, and trying to discredit my experience playing TAb mmorpgs since EQ1. This is because you simply just are bias and want action combat to flop in the game, has nothing to do with design or balance. Soy ou will purposely give bad information as far as i see it.
TAB games that have added aoe effects over time is them using action elements because it adds more difficulty and fun to the game compared to tab auto target everything...It is the natural progression of mmorpgs as tab was do to technology limitations that don't exist that strongly anymore...
It's disappointing to see were still stuck on the outdated tab target system after all these years. I was expecting most of the attacks/abilities to require at least some level of aiming with the cross-hair, but clearly that's not the case. I thought the entire point of making this game was to move the MMO genre forward?? This type of combat isn't moving us forward, it's leaving us where we've been for over 20 years. We've had the tech for it, now It's time to move on.
What was presented was a tab target system pretending to be action combat. I think it's a mistake to have 2 combat modes because players will ALWAYS choose what is more effective/easier, and that is an auto aiming minimal effort tab target system. Why would anyone bother using the "action combat" mode when you would be putting yourself at a disadvantage to someone that isn't? What we saw with tab target mode is you can run around freely with zero movement penalty, not having to aim or even look in the right direction and just mash buttons with near 100% accuracy. The tab targeting mode should be removed completely as well as hard locking because it gives too much of an advantage to already privileged ranged characters. Soft locking is fine because it still requires the player to aim in a targets general direction without having to be as precise as say a shooter game. In doing so it also restricts/slows movement since players will have to actively look at the target compared to running at a full sprint with enemies trailing behind them mindlessly slinging arrows. I liked the abilities that were shown and their animations but they should be skill shots, no auto aiming.
Edit: I don't think soft lock should be as forgiving as it is in ESO or even how it was in the demonstration, nor should it be as difficult as it was in New World to hit people in PvP. Somewhere in the middle would be perfect to where you actually have to aim at the character model and it's still possible to dodge projectiles. I'd even be open to no lock at all and having a generous hit box instead. My concern is the high mobility combined with gap closers, movement skills, being able to spam dodge roll and change directions instantly while running, it will be almost impossible to hit people in PvP, even worse than New World and I don't want that for an MMORPG. Not to mention how high latency and lag spikes will play negatively into all this
I absolutely love the idea of tanks being able to intercept projectiles with just their positioning!
You want to make a game that the masses finds fun and can play at a decent level. not a niche game where only those that are good at FPS will be able to do PvP at any decent rate.
Another problem you would definatly have ALOT of problems with would be aimbots.
There seem to be alot of New World players here that advocates for that type of combat, when a big reason why players quit New World was just becouse of the bad combat.
Also, action combat shouldnt have any advantage in terms of dmg.
I dont want a situation where groups are looking for only action combat players to maximize dmg in raids etc.
Ive practised archery myself and it glad you made the arm positioning more realistic than before, good work on that. (some hold it at the eye, some at the mouth)
You generally hold the string with 3 fingers, one above the arrow and 2 bellow.
Might be to many sounds but the string also makes a "bong" sound when you shoot.
(Shadiversity might be a good consultant in all things related to weapons)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkmMACUKpQeIxN9D9ARli1Q
The longbow could actually be a bit larger
Longbows should do less dmg the shorter range to target, and have higher miss chance.
Steven and the others have said that since start.
"If hybrid combat doesnt work and we have to choose well go with tab target" was said in one of the early QA videos.
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Several ides:
1) I think that ever1 would like to see quivers where the arrows are taken out of to make the archer gameplay more esthetic.
2) I hope and would like to see the skills not being ground locked. I mean, if an archer uses an escape skill so he can get to a rock (like in WOW or archeage) and the GCD is very impoprtant in this skills also, sometimes you lose more distance because of the animation or GCD than you get.
3) The rangemeter is one of necessary things for archer aswell, so we can calculate our abilities and keep the proper distance. You could just add the distance nearby the HP bars.
4) The last thing that concerns bows is their balance. I mean that bows should be for mobility, or controlling, or dealing huge DMG. For example in Archeage, as you have similar class system, nobody plays with the bow as a secondary weapon as it can support your main weapon, so there are no melee archers or mage archers, because the DMG of bows is hardly stuck to 1 stat, bows don't have necessary control or mobility.
The combat showcased in the demo was excellent! Here are my thoughts:
What I Liked:
Good But Needs Improvement:
What I Dislike:
What I Want Like To See:
Skills like these are interesting because they can be used for a multitude of different reasons. There are creative ways to change how you fight and are NOT simply "extra damage" or "fire arrows."
To give examples of this:
Thanks for reading!
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I think the demo covered what I consider basic attacks: snipe and quick shot. I appreciate the variety afforded by having the option to hold-and-charge both attacks with a longbow, and the quicker/more mobile attacks from the shortbow. But with mobility needs to come less instant damage, and perhaps overall DPS can remain the same with DoT ramp up on shortbow vs slower movement + harder-hitting attacks on longbow. You might want to consider more separation of movement speed between the weapons. I felt that the daggers vs 2h-sword had a larger difference.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
In general I'd like to see a wilderness theme (traps, tracking, camouflage, poison/debuff both applying and removal, but not a class based pet) to go along with the bow, as well as a minor melee option. I am not a fan of being able to shoot a bow while someone is hitting you with a melee weapon. That doesn't mean I want a minimum range, but rather have melee attacks interrupt any "charge-up" bow abilities.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I like the setup of melee (and short range attacks?) being untargeted and single target ranged attacks having tab-lock or action-lock. A cone AE multishot should not be tab-locked.
A "sniper stance/mode" which disables target-lock and allows for player aimed shots to deal extra damage would not work IMO. This would become mandatory for raid content, since large bosses are very easy to hit and headshot. Large hit boxes ruin the risk-vs-reward PvE calculation of player-aiming. The mechanics of lag and aim-bots ruin the PvP calculation in other ways.
General stuff
On a separate ranged PvP topic: Kiting vs counter-kiting. This is a tough balance of cooldowns for both sides, even if it's not a 1-1 balanced game. You can't have Rangers able to pink someone to death and dodge-roll away from the melee unscathed. Likewise, you can't have melee able to charge, snare and stick to ranged like glue. I look forward to your solution to this.
In this encounter, TTK is low and the combat looks far too easy even against ideal mobs. A good attack chain would kill these minotaurs before they got halfway to the player, and a well-timed dodge would avoid all of their ranged damage during that time. Be careful making mobs too slow, and if players can cast while moving, I don't see any reason why mobs (that are caster/melee) couldn't either.
Will Rangers have any resource they need to manage so that they can't just tee-off all their ranged cooldowns right away? IE, mana, energy, rage, ultimate, builder/spender, etc?
I've played both tab targeting and action combat. I've seen good and bad iterations of both.
You are not going to satisfy everyone regardless but please whatever way you go, do it well. Make it the best thing about this insane potential game.
Combat will be what makes or breaks this game.
It looks like you are aiming for a true hybrid combat system. Make it completely seamless switching between both forms so when you play it at the highest potential, you are better of using both forms of combat depending on the scenario rather then one or the other. This in conjunction with allowing either forms of combat to be used at all times for those who prefer that specific combat type regardless of min/maxing performance will give the combat appeal across preferences and skill levels.
And i want to be able to dogde it (with a dash or a roll for exemple) and block it.
Plus i would like if you could aim at least on some skills.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Not the same type of game so it will maybe be useless to mention, but i like the range gameplay in conqueror's blade, all attacks have actual "impact" on ennemy, you have a range auto-attack (left click) and a melee auto-attack (right click), some skill are melee too. You have dodges, traps, explosive arrow/bomb, dash.
And you have a good differences of gameplay between each ranged weapons.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
The game looks amazing so far. Keep up the great work
Even though I personally wanted the option for a full shooter-type mode, without the soft-locking, it still looks great. The debate is probably not open for your team, but if that were included with even the slightest of benefit over tab-targetting, that would've been my ideal situation. I wanted to fully RP the Ranger archetype and feel my identity align with my ability to aim.
If my arrow could land longer distances for reduced damage only through aiming, even that would satisfy me.
At this point, I no longer feel like maining a Ranger, so it's sad for me. Still, it looks like fun and will definitely be satisfying for others. The Hybrid option looks sweet through. I'll most likely be favoring that over tab-targeting.
My dreams to successfully mix my two loves (FPS and MMO's) will not happen for a long time, but the game looks exciting and the direction is understandable.
P.S. Slightly longer TTK would be nice (assuming it's an equal level fight). The minotaurs didn't quite feel like a threat unless Steven was swarmed.
I liked the hybrid combat system on display, it seems very intuitive and is a good way to keep players from both styles of game comfortable with combat in AoC (and I come from action combat style games and thought this display looked similar enough to be comfortable, but given how many commenters didn't like it, perhaps it will take hands on testing to see how it feels and performs).
Steven's explanation of how auto attacks will feed into rotations by setting up procs to compliment big skills was probably my favorite part of the ranger demo livestream, as this seems like a far more engaging and impactful way of handling basic attacks than most games have. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out when we see the skill trees he was referring to and during alpha 2 testing.
Things to work on
We didn't see a whole lot about the actual skill tree differences between shortbows and longbows during the demonstration, but I hope they will feed into the feel of the weapons that we saw displayed so clearly:
-The longbow is a slow, hard hitting weapon. I'd use it during sieges or raids and other situations when I don't expect to be moving and shooting. As such, I'd hope it's skill tree reflects these natural use cases, perhaps offering damage bonuses to physical penetration, structures/siege equipment, and boss type monsters. And because you are taking the time to aim as part of the charge up for your attack, it seems intuitive to have a bonus to critical chance or the damage of a critical hit on the longbow.
-The mobility offered by the shortbow makes it seem better suited for skirmishes, fights around caravans, and fighting mob packs like Steven was doing in the demo. As such, skills that root or slow the enemy while you maneuver around seem the most intuitive, as do damage bonuses to aoe skills, and a reduction in skill cooldowns for fast paced fights against multiple opponents.
This is my first post in the AoC forums as after the ranged combat shown, I couldn't possibly be more excited.
I wanted to provide my feedback in relation to the Archery specifically as I am a sporting/hunting archer in a range of disciplines & an uber geek for fantasy / game related content.
Liked:
- Bow audio feedback 10/10. LOVE the draw creak, flight whistle and impact. This audio profile gave the arrow a very swift, raw kinetic feeling. (there was power behind the arrow which not many games replicate accurately)
- Arrow vapor trail 10/10 (this actually happens when we shoot in the rain and or have wet fletches) really liked this a lot.
- Bow limb flex when drawn 10/10
- Ranged attack distance & Arrow speed also very nice.
- Hybrid combat system was nice, it still looks engaging, the attack tempo was impressive.
- Overall bow aesthetic design - quite nice.
- Bow type choices - Longbow / Shortbow (awesome) looking forward to seeing crossbows etc in the future.
- Attention to detail for fingers when drawing bow 1 above 2 under
- Bow slightly canted when drawing & shooting while standing 10/10
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (no target engaged)
- Running/Walking animation when bow in hand 10/10 (enemy/agro engaged)
- Character form when using the bow (Looked quite nice and accurate).
- Airstrike skill was flashy and fun
- Snipe as a skill has to be my favorite
- Quick shot was awesome
Feedback:
- Could it also be possible that when using snipe, your overall distance will increase further at max draw/charge than the default tab range? penetrate targets? or both?
- Snipe Skill (Assuming the draw style was 1 above and 2 under with the arrow on the left side of the bow):
- Bow might be better off remaining canted when drawn, to avoid bow limbs touching the ground and also arrows must rest correctly in such a draw to avoid falling off the shelf (blue line represents a possible angle)
Similar to this next image from BotW
(IF the draw of snipe is using thumb draw with the arrow on the right side when drawn, the character and bow behavior is already true to form and can remain as is without sacrificing attention to detail)
Bow Design:
(I love them, as for game bows, they're probably some of the nicest and most accurate)
- Small piece of feedback (this is no biggie) string nocks are usually at the end of the limbs where the reflex sits so max power can be achieved. (Red is current, green is recommended)
Arrows:
- When the bow is drawn it would be nice to see that an arrow is nocked, as drawing/releasing an un-nocked bow is not only immersion breaking for the weapon, its also extremely dangerous to do that irl haha. Bow limbs often snap / explode when there is insufficient energy transfer into a correctly spined/present arrow.
**note** Please note that the arrow is rested on the left side of the bow as the character is using a Mediterranean draw. 1 above 2 under
- It would be nice to see a nocked arrow when the bow is in the players hands (while agro is engaged)
- Having no arrow nocked when the character is just standing there idle (no threat present) is fine.
- Arrows being stuck in targets is also something I would personally desire, I know it might be resource intensive and thus maybe capping a 3 arrow limit stuck in a monster at any given time would be reasonable.
**Quick Update / Query**
- Having re watched the Ranger showcase video, I get glimpses of a nocked arrow when drawing, this might already be implemented and certain angles just makes it harder to view.
its feint, but it appears to be present.
Quivers:
-The addition of a quiver for some armors would be nice, placed on the lower back or hip ideally. Back quivers though popularized in media are a little corny (though some might disagree). Please see image below from BotW.
(By having the quiver on the hip as traditionally seen in archers from the Eurasia and East, it gives you unimpeded movement & easy access to the arrows without struggling for reach)
**Note** Links form in the image above, though ok, is not accurate because the arrow is on the left side. For this to be accurate the arrow should have been on the right side. String twist would force the arrow off the shelf to the way he is drawing it in that image.
(potential idea only)
- Enchanted Arrows / Bows for different status effects EG:
- Fire/Poison bows/Arrows - Apply a slow burn or HP loss DoT
- Lightning/Bodkin - Apply amour pen / bleed
- Ice bow - apply a slowing effect onhit / heavy
- Blunt arrow - applies fractures / stuns
Games I found with engaging & mostly accurate bow gameplay:
- Dark Souls / Elden ring (Enjoyed the Bows here) only complaint is that arrow speed was too slow and could do with a tune.
- Ghost of Tsushima: (Well rounded bow gameplay) Nice arrow speed in most cases & bow design.
- Genshin Impact: (Charged Shots) these feel satisfying much like (snipe) the arrow speed, achievable distance and overall character draw form are pretty good. There are a couple of characters who's forms are horrid, and its usually when theyre holding the bow like this fella;
- Destiny 2: (Arsenic Bite Bow) was modeled after a Recurve bow IRL and played well in game. The others are too futuristic to apply any meaningful feedback (arrow speeds sometimes acted as hitscans)
- Overwatch (Hanzo): - At full draw the arrows behaved alright, speed was decent. (The complaint I have here is that the bow felt like it didnt provide any power sort of like a toy).
- 7 Days to Die: (Decent arrow speed for Recurve & Compound the actual bow design / aesthetic left much to be desired) - Distances were too short. Might have been an engine limitation though.
- League of legends (Ashe, Twitch, Varus, Vayne) - All played well for a moba standard, the sound profiles here were pretty cool with Ashe being my favorite for her auto attacks.
- Zelda Breath Of the Wild: Bow design was very well done, Arrow speed was (ok) could be faster. Sound profiles were pretty good. Satisfying to use.
Games that I did not enjoy bow gameplay:
- Raft: i felt like the bow itself was a noodle. Arrow speed was incredibly slow and trajectory calculations horrendous.
Gameplay Feedback:
As we haven't had the ability to play AoC with the updated Melee & Ranged combat, its difficult to determine whether or not balance is present. Players just want to ensure that the class they choose is on 'equal' footing against other classes provided that (Both) players are equally skilled and or mechanically gifted.
*Of note*
Arrows aren't slow or sluggish, out of a well tuned 50lb draw weight bow, you can punch arrows out to 70m+ in a second, bows used in the medieval era's were 80lb-175lb in draw weight.
My personal bows:
Olympic 190-215 Feet Per Second (50lb)
Hunting Recurve - 210-219 Feet Per Second (55lb)
Compound 300+ Feet Per Second (60lb)
Traditional Yew longbow - 175-190 Feet Per Second (95lb)
Yumi / Asian horn bows - 190-209 Feet Per Second (50lb)
General:
The environment is beautiful. I am gobsmacked. 100/10. Seriously, this entire studio has achieved what other AAA / Corporate studios haven't been able to replicate. There is LIFE. Butterflies, fireflies, birds, dew, wind, light, texture, weather, depth and TRUE scale. Nothing looks like a prop or is misplaced, its all part of a bigger picture and makes everything feel real.
Looking forward to the future of AoC!
Thank you Steven & the entire Intrepid studios team.
I loved this feedback... I support it 100%
Keep up the amazing work.