Building up a stat called Accuracy is ****. Weapon skill that also affects action aim is fine; 'STATS ON GEAR' is ****.
I once again suggest you try some MineCraft.
Group PvE games tend to need this stat. Even when you are not building a specific actual 'accuracy stat' in a game like Monster Hunter, there are many gear parts that are contributing to your accuracy in small ways. A game with Ashes' TTK is probably best served with an Accuracy Stat because that allows them to ignore a lot of the more confusing complexities when in a large group.
I don't think it would be reasonable to remove such a stat in a game with a Tab Target option, and all the work required to get players to understand 'other methods of having accuracy' is likely to lead to a stagnant meta.
I always expected hybrid combat to simply mean action for many things but tab targeting for things where action doesn't work well. The toggle back and forth system, as I and others have said elsewhere, doesn't really make sense. One mode (probably tab) will be superior and people will just use that or be at a disadvantage.
It could be that the tech just won't allow for 250v250 fights with action combat working. But if that's the case they should not have gotten up MANY MANY peoples' hopes that there might be legit action combat in AOC.
I also think that maybe tech limitations will not prevent a working action combat system. Judging from A1 the performance even this early, before conversion to the new engine, was good enough to allow for action combat to work well.
Honestly blows my mind this game refuses to move onto action combat?? IMO he better have a heck of an excuse to be stuck in the year 2000. All you players acting like it's a no brainer that tab target should be used...there are plenty of 20 year old MMORPG's that still have that system that you can go back and play. Let's take this supposed breakthrough game into the next gen please.
Honestly blows my mind this players refuse to use tab target combat?? IMO you better have an excuse to wanna play an FPS in an MMO. All you players acting like it's a no brainer that action combat should be used.... there are plenty of games that offer that and suck, or are slow or hindered by ping/lag, that you can go play.
Let's take this supposed breakthrough game (on the strength of its systems and not its combat) into the market as a successful game everyone who's interested can play, please.
Accuracy stat with active dodge and active block is redundant. I would also state that accuracy stat in action combat is also irrelevant but I don't think Ashes will have true action combat so the point is mute. Same applies to evasion stat but evasion to a lesser degree because of the lean towards tab.
If evasion and accuracy stats are meant to be prevalent then active dodge becomes rather pointless. But then, the soft target made active dodge rather pointless. Difficult to tell when we haven't seen pvp for a while.
Accuracy stat with active dodge and active block is redundant. I would also state that accuracy stat in action combat is also irrelevant but I don't think Ashes will have true action combat so the point is mute. Same applies to evasion stat but evasion to a lesser degree because of the lean towards tab.
If evasion and accuracy stats are meant to be prevalent then active dodge becomes rather pointless. But then, the soft target made active dodge rather pointless. Difficult to tell when we haven't seen pvp for a while.
But as you noted, if there is Tab Target combat, particularly Tab Target for Ranger skills, you will need this Evasion Stat.
And Steven explicitly said that you won't be able to swap weapons and armor easily, so the gear would need to be balanced accordingly.
Active Dodge function could just break any Tab-lock your opponent has on you, in which case the 'Action' part would be regaining that lock, either through clicking (which is aiming) or softlock (even more aiming).
In that situation, being able to lead 'shots', i.e. even just put your reticle/cursor where you expect your opponent to be when you can regain 'lock', would matter. Like most related games, Active Dodge could just be moreso a stall tactic (if all your opponent has to do is mash Tab) or a way to avoid very specific attacks.
Similarly, if you are in a group, your opponent CANNOT just 'hit Tab until they have you targeted again' and the Action mode would be a much better solution to quick target Acquisition.
I've played a lot of MMORPGs out there and always took a ranged class. My personal experience is, that action based aiming does not work properly in this Genre. Especially if you have mass PvP battles or Raids, sometimes including massiv visual effects from other player's skills. Hitting the right target is then pure luck. And when you also have lags, all hope is lost.
For me the challenge of a MMORPG is more on a strategic layer. Chosing the right target and using the right skill and so on. That's only working with Tab targeting.
As others wrote. I don't want to play a bad FPS.
I've played a lot of MMORPGs out there and always took a ranged class. My personal experience is, that action based aiming does not work properly in this Genre. Especially if you have mass PvP battles or Raids, sometimes including massiv visual effects from other player's skills. Hitting the right target is then pure luck. And when you also have lags, all hope is lost.
For me the challenge of a MMORPG is more on a strategic layer. Chosing the right target and using the right skill and so on. That's only working with Tab targeting.
As others wrote. I don't want to play a bad FPS.
What action mmorpgs have you played?
What you are saying makes 0 sense in terms of action mmorpgs as everything is not free aim. (ignoring aoe) You have soft lock which does not make it luck if you are hitting your target, you hit the person closet to your crosshair as it locks onto them....
If you only experience with action mmorpgs is new world, that is not proper experience with action combat.
Also there is nothing strategic about auto attack in a tab target mmorpg....you don't auto attack except at very low levels.
Why are you suggesting Minecraft as if that dismission makes sense.
You probably liked someone else's idea in another thread of mineshafts being built and ore being harvested to supply a Node LMAO
Tab or Lock On can be used in a hybrid context to guarantee shots hit. This can be done in a few ways.
1. You occassionally get an empowered shot guaranteed to hit and do full or extra damage, sort of a combo or charge from other attacks.
2. You can always "auto-attack" but at reduced fire rate and damage.
3. Homing attack, perhaps with a cooldown.
All three can co-exist.
This talk of MMO gear is disgusting though. Random stats and meta-game **** that just ruins all sense of immersion.
I'm not convinced anyone can just add evasion and be at over 50% evasion stat. To my knowledge only rogues and evasion tanks can stack evasion. I think any evasion less than 50% is an utter waste. Furthermore, accuracy is also a wasted stat. I still don't believe you can max out Magic and physical damage in a hybrid build and that was without accuracy and evasion being factored in.
I'm not convinced anyone can just add evasion and be at over 50% evasion stat. To my knowledge only rogues and evasion tanks can stack evasion. I think any evasion less than 50% is an utter waste. Furthermore, accuracy is also a wasted stat. I still don't believe you can max out Magic and physical damage in a hybrid build and that was without accuracy and evasion being factored in.
They have always said that the combat was going to be hybrid. I am not sure why this is such a huge surprise to people. I'm more concerned on the combat feeling good then what type of combat it is. That will be much more important.
They have always said that the combat was going to be hybrid. I am not sure why this is such a huge surprise to people. I'm more concerned on the combat feeling good then what type of combat it is. That will be much more important.
It’s just folks new to the project. This is par for the course each time a big reveal happens. New folks with their own expectations without a lot (or any) knowledge that about the game.
They have always said that the combat was going to be hybrid. I am not sure why this is such a huge surprise to people. I'm more concerned on the combat feeling good then what type of combat it is. That will be much more important.
It’s just folks new to the project. This is par for the course each time a big reveal happens. New folks with their own expectations without a lot (or any) knowledge that about the game.
It’s all good for the game’s growing audience.
You are right. More new eyes on the game is definitely a good thing.
I just hope people realize that you can have a good experience in the combat system regardless of what type of combat it is, as long as the system itself is done well.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat. Treat the action combat how a mouseover macro would work in WOW when highlighting other targets while you have your main target selected except you would have to aim your reticle instead of moving your cursor over your enemy.
I'm not convinced anyone can just add evasion and be at over 50% evasion stat. To my knowledge only rogues and evasion tanks can stack evasion. I think any evasion less than 50% is an utter waste. Furthermore, accuracy is also a wasted stat. I still don't believe you can max out Magic and physical damage in a hybrid build and that was without accuracy and evasion being factored in.
They have always said that the combat was going to be hybrid. I am not sure why this is such a huge surprise to people. I'm more concerned on the combat feeling good then what type of combat it is. That will be much more important.
It’s just folks new to the project. This is par for the course each time a big reveal happens. New folks with their own expectations without a lot (or any) knowledge that about the game.
It’s all good for the game’s growing audience.
You are right. More new eyes on the game is definitely a good thing.
I just hope people realize that you can have a good experience in the combat system regardless of what type of combat it is, as long as the system itself is done well.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat seamlessly.
This really isn't true for all of us, though.
There are definitely games that I cannot have a good experience in the system based entirely on what the system is. This is actually fairly common.
It isn't related to ability to win, or lose, it's not related to balance either, it's simply that some things feel natural and fun and some don't, and when I say that, I AM referring explicitly to the interface between myself and the game, and to the 'animation properties' of the game.
I don't generally enjoy games like what some people are imagining Ashes must turn out to be like, regardless of fluidity or my personal skill. So if those people are right, I'm not going to enjoy it, and I will take them at their word that they aren't going to enjoy it either.
Some people are just more picky about what they find interesting or engaging for combat systems.
They have always said that the combat was going to be hybrid. I am not sure why this is such a huge surprise to people. I'm more concerned on the combat feeling good then what type of combat it is. That will be much more important.
It’s just folks new to the project. This is par for the course each time a big reveal happens. New folks with their own expectations without a lot (or any) knowledge that about the game.
It’s all good for the game’s growing audience.
You are right. More new eyes on the game is definitely a good thing.
I just hope people realize that you can have a good experience in the combat system regardless of what type of combat it is, as long as the system itself is done well.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat seamlessly.
Yep - and based on what we saw in the reveal, that’s where they seem to be headed directionally.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat. Treat the action combat how a mouseover macro would work in WOW when highlighting other targets while you have your main target selected except you would have to aim your reticle instead of moving your cursor over your enemy.
We used to be able to stay in action mode and still switch tab target. Not sure if that function has been removed. There literally was no need to be out of action mode except if you didn't like the camera angles.
I'm not convinced anyone can just add evasion and be at over 50% evasion stat. To my knowledge only rogues and evasion tanks can stack evasion. I think any evasion less than 50% is an utter waste. Furthermore, accuracy is also a wasted stat. I still don't believe you can max out Magic and physical damage in a hybrid build and that was without accuracy and evasion being factored in.
It's not about bad maths, it's about the amount of stats you can fit on gear and particularly a legendary piece of gear. I suppose you could stack evasion instead of health but accuracy would have to replace either magic damage, physical damage, crit hit or crit chance.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat. Treat the action combat how a mouseover macro would work in WOW when highlighting other targets while you have your main target selected except you would have to aim your reticle instead of moving your cursor over your enemy.
We used to be able to stay in action mode and still switch tab target. Not sure if that function has been removed. There literally was no need to be out of action mode except if you didn't like the camera angles.
It looked similar to the old ranger video I saw years ago. People play WoW for its nostalgia not for its combat and ashes will not have any nostalgia to benefit from.
They don't play for nostalgia. That will come after they quit playing. They play because of their time investment and the fact that they enjoy it.
Everyone likes their combat in different ways. As Steven has said many times before, maybe this game isn't for you.
the problem is when people are saying "THIS is better" and for get "imo"... the "imo" is rare in message, but we can see often if people defend their view, or try to explain they have truth and here... i mostly feel that the "game have to be action or will fail" team is clearly on "i know what is good"
if real time and turn base were able to both show high level of skills i don't see why a tab targetting would be, by definition lower skill than action.
Both can need high skill level ... but not the same kind of skill. it reminds me, the CS-fan saying that they were the true FPS skilled players, not UT/quake players... and i feel the same thing here.
The sad thing is that a game made by Amazon was the first MMO in years to try and do something different when it came to combat and it worked, if we forget the fact it was attached to a bloated corpse full of bugs. I'm not surprised at all that the game is starting to look more like a grittier ESO or GW2, you could always tell they'd play it safe when it came to combat and for anyone to say that the draw of this game has been the 'node' system, you're delusional. The draw of this product was the idea a Western developer would "Make MMO's Great Again", but alas we're going down the safe route. Guess we'll see if the node system can outshine bland combat.
The sad thing is that a game made by Amazon was the first MMO in years to try and do something different when it came to combat and it worked, if we forget the fact it was attached to a bloated corpse full of bugs. I'm not surprised at all that the game is starting to look more like a grittier ESO or GW2, you could always tell they'd play it safe when it came to combat and for anyone to say that the draw of this game has been the 'node' system, you're delusional. The draw of this product was the idea a Western developer would "Make MMO's Great Again", but alas we're going down the safe route. Guess we'll see if the node system can outshine bland combat.
They did try to do something new but their combat isn't based on mmorpgs its based on survival combat (on a higher level atleast).
If new world reworked their combat to have proper fluid action combat that game would start to become a bigger deal. They may do that over time but its better to start the game design strong as building up over a skeleton is a lot more difficult.
If they really wanted to save that game id have a group doing major patches, and a full development cycle as well at the same time for a giant ass update reworking a lot of things and making it feel like a new game.
The draw of this product was the idea a Western developer would "Make MMO's Great Again", but alas we're going down the safe route. Guess we'll see if the node system can outshine bland combat.
You do realize that the phrase "make something great again" implies that the old version was great so we gotta bring it back, right? This is why the original phrase attracted all the right boomers and why Steven used it in the mmo context. He's attracting mmo boomers who loved old games with their tab targeting and more social/hardcore designs. It was never about making the game a fucking shooter.
The sad thing is that a game made by Amazon was the first MMO in years to try and do something different when it came to combat and it worked, if we forget the fact it was attached to a bloated corpse full of bugs. I'm not surprised at all that the game is starting to look more like a grittier ESO or GW2, you could always tell they'd play it safe when it came to combat and for anyone to say that the draw of this game has been the 'node' system, you're delusional. The draw of this product was the idea a Western developer would "Make MMO's Great Again", but alas we're going down the safe route. Guess we'll see if the node system can outshine bland combat.
They did try to do something new but their combat isn't based on mmorpgs its based on survival combat (on a higher level atleast).
For reference New World was going to be a FULL LOOT SURVIVAL GAME, but imagine what, the people crying made it into a PvE game. I wonder how does that reflects on Ashes.
Well it is sad and a thing of the past. But that doesn't mean there is no market for it. People play FFXIV and WoW and most of them are generally fine with it. As you can also see from the snarky boomers people from this post, it is the type of combat many MMORPGers are used to and they'll defend it. Now that doesn't mean that action combat has no place in the upcoming MMOs, including Ashes. We'll just have to wait and see.
Like the younger generation only is used to fps fortnite gameplay. Maybe they should take on new challenges instead of bad talking everthing that is unknown to them. Where do you think this mentality will lead them to in life...?
Nothing against trying out new things. Action combat had its chances in MMOs like New World showcased. It failed. So maybe the MMO market needs something that actually works.
Then maybe the mmorpg market will die out with you boomers
0
FantmxMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
The MMO market is nowhere near dying out and combat is not the next step. The next steps are:
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
Naa combat is just as important, mmorpg combat has been lack luster and why it has been improved again and again over many years leading more towards actions.
Comments
I once again suggest you try some MineCraft.
Group PvE games tend to need this stat. Even when you are not building a specific actual 'accuracy stat' in a game like Monster Hunter, there are many gear parts that are contributing to your accuracy in small ways. A game with Ashes' TTK is probably best served with an Accuracy Stat because that allows them to ignore a lot of the more confusing complexities when in a large group.
I don't think it would be reasonable to remove such a stat in a game with a Tab Target option, and all the work required to get players to understand 'other methods of having accuracy' is likely to lead to a stagnant meta.
Honestly blows my mind this players refuse to use tab target combat?? IMO you better have an excuse to wanna play an FPS in an MMO. All you players acting like it's a no brainer that action combat should be used.... there are plenty of games that offer that and suck, or are slow or hindered by ping/lag, that you can go play.
Let's take this supposed breakthrough game (on the strength of its systems and not its combat) into the market as a successful game everyone who's interested can play, please.
See what I did there?
What kind of answer is that?
Why even visit this forum is what you want is just BDO or New World in a different setting?
If evasion and accuracy stats are meant to be prevalent then active dodge becomes rather pointless. But then, the soft target made active dodge rather pointless. Difficult to tell when we haven't seen pvp for a while.
But as you noted, if there is Tab Target combat, particularly Tab Target for Ranger skills, you will need this Evasion Stat.
And Steven explicitly said that you won't be able to swap weapons and armor easily, so the gear would need to be balanced accordingly.
Active Dodge function could just break any Tab-lock your opponent has on you, in which case the 'Action' part would be regaining that lock, either through clicking (which is aiming) or softlock (even more aiming).
In that situation, being able to lead 'shots', i.e. even just put your reticle/cursor where you expect your opponent to be when you can regain 'lock', would matter. Like most related games, Active Dodge could just be moreso a stall tactic (if all your opponent has to do is mash Tab) or a way to avoid very specific attacks.
Similarly, if you are in a group, your opponent CANNOT just 'hit Tab until they have you targeted again' and the Action mode would be a much better solution to quick target Acquisition.
For me the challenge of a MMORPG is more on a strategic layer. Chosing the right target and using the right skill and so on. That's only working with Tab targeting.
As others wrote. I don't want to play a bad FPS.
What action mmorpgs have you played?
What you are saying makes 0 sense in terms of action mmorpgs as everything is not free aim. (ignoring aoe) You have soft lock which does not make it luck if you are hitting your target, you hit the person closet to your crosshair as it locks onto them....
If you only experience with action mmorpgs is new world, that is not proper experience with action combat.
Also there is nothing strategic about auto attack in a tab target mmorpg....you don't auto attack except at very low levels.
Why are you suggesting Minecraft as if that dismission makes sense.
You probably liked someone else's idea in another thread of mineshafts being built and ore being harvested to supply a Node LMAO
Tab or Lock On can be used in a hybrid context to guarantee shots hit. This can be done in a few ways.
1. You occassionally get an empowered shot guaranteed to hit and do full or extra damage, sort of a combo or charge from other attacks.
2. You can always "auto-attack" but at reduced fire rate and damage.
3. Homing attack, perhaps with a cooldown.
All three can co-exist.
This talk of MMO gear is disgusting though. Random stats and meta-game **** that just ruins all sense of immersion.
It’s just folks new to the project. This is par for the course each time a big reveal happens. New folks with their own expectations without a lot (or any) knowledge that about the game.
It’s all good for the game’s growing audience.
You are right. More new eyes on the game is definitely a good thing.
I just hope people realize that you can have a good experience in the combat system regardless of what type of combat it is, as long as the system itself is done well.
Personally I hope for seamless transitions from one combat type to another where I have the freedom to attack multiple enemies going from tab targeting to action combat. Treat the action combat how a mouseover macro would work in WOW when highlighting other targets while you have your main target selected except you would have to aim your reticle instead of moving your cursor over your enemy.
Not sure why you show BDO. I referred to ashes of creation theory crafting.
This really isn't true for all of us, though.
There are definitely games that I cannot have a good experience in the system based entirely on what the system is. This is actually fairly common.
It isn't related to ability to win, or lose, it's not related to balance either, it's simply that some things feel natural and fun and some don't, and when I say that, I AM referring explicitly to the interface between myself and the game, and to the 'animation properties' of the game.
I don't generally enjoy games like what some people are imagining Ashes must turn out to be like, regardless of fluidity or my personal skill. So if those people are right, I'm not going to enjoy it, and I will take them at their word that they aren't going to enjoy it either.
Some people are just more picky about what they find interesting or engaging for combat systems.
Yep - and based on what we saw in the reveal, that’s where they seem to be headed directionally.
We used to be able to stay in action mode and still switch tab target. Not sure if that function has been removed. There literally was no need to be out of action mode except if you didn't like the camera angles.
Because we were talking about evasion, and bad math creates bad evasion and this is the worst form where you just avoid almost all dmg.
It's still there, Steven says so after 18:28;
Everyone likes their combat in different ways. As Steven has said many times before, maybe this game isn't for you.
Only different ways to design the gameplay.
the problem is when people are saying "THIS is better" and for get "imo"... the "imo" is rare in message, but we can see often if people defend their view, or try to explain they have truth and here... i mostly feel that the "game have to be action or will fail" team is clearly on "i know what is good"
if real time and turn base were able to both show high level of skills i don't see why a tab targetting would be, by definition lower skill than action.
Both can need high skill level ... but not the same kind of skill. it reminds me, the CS-fan saying that they were the true FPS skilled players, not UT/quake players... and i feel the same thing here.
They did try to do something new but their combat isn't based on mmorpgs its based on survival combat (on a higher level atleast).
If new world reworked their combat to have proper fluid action combat that game would start to become a bigger deal. They may do that over time but its better to start the game design strong as building up over a skeleton is a lot more difficult.
If they really wanted to save that game id have a group doing major patches, and a full development cycle as well at the same time for a giant ass update reworking a lot of things and making it feel like a new game.
Then maybe the mmorpg market will die out with you boomers
1) a living, breathing world that responds to player decisions in a way that doesn't take constant content creation by the developer and
2) Smart AI
MMO longevity has nothing to do with type of combat.
Naa combat is just as important, mmorpg combat has been lack luster and why it has been improved again and again over many years leading more towards actions.