Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Right away I see their argument of bad players will have no chance, or even more so if you have 8 bad players. That has been true for pretty much all decent mmorpgs where they can never win. Between coming down to gear, builds, rotations and such the better players will win and also be more organized. (I'm sure there are examples of broken things that re easy to use if someone follows some guide they found to one shot someone).
So now suddenly skill is coming in question of them saying they are worried the skill cap will be too high, I feel that is more so a problem for them of better players being difficult for them to beat when it comes to the additional layer added on top.
As far as other people that aren't as skilled and getting stomped, when has that ever changed against them fighting a competitive guild that consistently holds territory or wins. All that matters is that there is fun things for them to do and enjoy, a more layered combat means more things for them to work and improve at over time, while having a fun gameplay experience that has some more depth to it on the skill side of things.
Onto the point about high skill with tab one question would have to be asked is why is it high. Is it because you have like 40+ abilities and you are spending time making the perfect built and knowing your rotations and what other players can do. Knowing when you use certain buffs and certain skills at the right time, etc. This seems more knowledge based and I don't refer to it as much as skill. The more things to need to figure out on this side of things of you and other classes and builds this becomes a bigger gate than anything where a casual player can't overcome to begin with.
In terms of a game that has more focus on skill yes it adds more layers of complication to it, but it lowers the amount of unnecessary things and makes it more open for people to have more of a chance in. To me this is a good thing as it is more of a complexity of design without a good reason (atleast in this day and age). IE i have all these skills ok let me spend time figure out what is going to be the most op rotation against this certain class cause i have knowledge on the 40+ abilities between both them.
You remove things that complicate the system while adding other more meaningful game ie action combat that is more available in this day and age. Rather than have 5 different skills that all feel the same and do the same in tab target as in you click and it works on the character you target. And something players need to figure out but what ones are good to use in some rotations or else wise to make it more effective.
All effectively easer to make it to gate keep and have people wonder why they die and be confused. Which goes line in line with tab target and why your issue about confusion on death is more in lines with that. Where action based you have more of a gauge on why you died, or atleast a means to avoid some of the things that may confuse you.
~~~
1. Long story short that not having a chance is nothing new in mmorpgs against better players if you lack experience.
2. The riot mmorpg will be casual if that is what you prefer im sure btw.
3. Tab is more knowledge and hidden complexity over actual skill. Far bigger gate keeper that gives most people no chance of winning
4- You should be well aware of mmorpgs are, BDO the only one imo that has a crazy learning curve tht is nto made easy to learn as well and hard reading what is on the screen for some people.
As long as it isn't as frantic as that game the skill ceiling will still be high and fair for people. The good ones will win and bad will lose as it has always been in a mmorpg.
AoC is a mmorpg, no one is saying the skill ceiling will be like this, if this is what you are assuming you are being disingenuous off that bat trying to argue with extremes which you normally do Noaani
No one said remove skill, or make it so bad players can compete with good players. In fact, I specifically said that would not be possible, because literally no matter what a developer does, a good player will always be better than a bad player.
You also somehow seem to have twisted a statement of a lower skill ceiling as being an argument against action combat. Since top end tab combat takes more skill than top end action combat, this is simply you reading in to a statement and finding your own bias, rather than understanding what was being said.
When I say remove skill I never said you are saying REMOVE ALL SKILL. What are you even going on about.
I feel you didn't read my spot again what are you going on about. I literarily talk about tab target with the mount of skills you need to manage and figure out, plus knowing other players creates a more complex loop that can gate keep compared to people that are not as good and ensure those people will always be stomped with like you said not knowing how or why they are losing.
Like you are trying to argue with me but you have or perspective on tab and relation that to action when things work different and are more half and half in hybrid depending....so off the bat you are not looking at it with the right perspective unless AoC goes down the route of tab target mmorpgs and you have 40+ skills but there isn't been a huge indication of having all those skills to use at one given time...
Mag, if at least once, you could try to not to rewrite what people are saying, would be nice...
People are using the "high skill only with action" as argument, and other people are just saying "mmorpg doesn't fit to get insane high level skill cap for [reasons] ... not an argument against action...
Gameplay will always at its core be highly relevant. All the ideas in the world won't hide poor gameplay.
I totally support you there. one of my favourite gameplay in MMORPG, the other being Aion.
Also, BNS is probably the ONLY arena PvP i liked to play again and again ... (while i hate it everywhere else ^^')
Totally true
but here it is not "is poor gameplay ok?" Nobody on this topic defend a boring gameplay all hope an enticing one, feeling good in our hands.
I think the reason BNS doesn't get much representation is that quite a while back, we got to the 'we don't want a fighting game!' response a lot.
But BNS is a fighting game. BDO is NOT but people think it is, perhaps.
So a lot of people who would enjoy BNS-style combat didn't think it was even worth bringing to a forum conversation. Why rile people up and get shouted down when they already made their perspectives clear?
And also... maybe i did misunderstood sathrago, but i feel he points out that from the "action combat" fan nobody used BNS as example, while still defending the action gameplay for AoC.
Personally, i would totally go on this as example if, suddenly, IS decide to go "action combat style" (would be strange, and risky decision... if not suicidal). But also i am one totally satisfied with current situation ^^'
Right but if a lot of the community went 'well we don't want fighting game level combat don't bring up such games in conversation' and BNS literally has a combo counter.... That's why it doesn't get brought up.
I was not suggesting blade and soul or advocating for action combat. I was only pointing out that it was really weird no one brought it up. The game is not a "fighter" it's action combat. They have combo popups for flair but the actual combos are just what anyone would do when multiple abilities synergize. The combat is still skill shots and combo moves like any other action combat game. The one difference perhaps being that if you know how to play your character and run into someone who doesn't, the person that doesn't also doesn't get to play the game. So CC, dodging, counters and landing abilities is much more important than in other games, but that doesn't make it not an action combat game.
That's what makes it a fighting game.
The term obviously has no 'real' meaning in that sense, right? I'm not gonna argue 'all games that contain fighting are fighting games'.
That means there must be a definition of 'fighting game' that goes beyond 'a game where people fight', and some subset of Action Games are 'fighting games', because almost all Fighters are 'Action Games'.
By the definitions that are generally accepted for 'Fighting Game', BNS is one. You just described one that is unfortunately almost fundamental to the genre definition. Even the definition of Combo is as expected.
"Your first strike put your opponent in a state where it was not possible to recover in a way that allows them to avoid the next strike." - basic definition of a Combo in the form required for fighters, which is exactly how it works in BNS.
Either way I guess your response is moreso a 'proof indicator' than anything else. We don't bring up BNS because 'people don't want fighting games' in their MMOs, some people may not understand 'which is which' but they're pretty set on their perception of what they do and don't want, so it isn't really possible to advance the conversation.
Because you misread half my point and inject exaggerated reference or assumptions. That is on you.
No, because I did it on purpose to show you what you always do.
Insert personal opinion and saying going against it will be suicidal. That is so "game forum" mentality.
Considering some of the first gameplay in the very first game play testing was 100% FPS and it still didn't slow the momentum of this game. Yeah you are wrong.
I think no matter if they go full tab or full action or full fps there will be a massive following in this game. Which is the best direction for this game is truly up for debate. IMO which would be best for profitability? Who really knows...I think focusing on tab target would likely be the worst decision...just a guess. Why you say? It's simple...there are countless other tab target games on the market including the biggest ever they are competing with. Also, I think combat is for the most part moving on from tab and I think that happened a decade or more ago. If you focus on more action or fps I think you are opening yourself up to a slightly larger audience and also a much more faithful one. More faithful mostly or only because there just isn't as much GOOD competition out there. Just my two cents!!!
That’s an interesting analysis you’re basing your opinion on. So tab-games are a monolith with no other differentiating features, and the largest revenue generating mmos in the market moved from tab to action 10+ years ago?
You sure about those facts? 🤔
I think it's easy to flip this argument around the other way as well. Yes there are a lot of tab target games out there, and based on the populations of those games vs populations of action combat mmos, there is arguably a bigger audience for a tab targeting game. MMO players have been largely fed up with the state of the existing games for some time now, which is a big reason behind the hype for AoC, we are all hoping this is the game that finally gets it right, and would happily abandon the old games if it does.
Alternatively, while there are some massively popular action or fps games that are not MMOs, there is no guarantee that an action combat MMO would capture all or a significant portion of those audiences.
Don't get me wrong, I really like action combat, but I think it's silly to suggest that the system they are aiming for is a terrible decision that won't have any loyal players. If its balanced well, this hybrid combat can still be a lot of fun and require skill to master.
Insert personal opinion and saying going against it will be suicidal. That is so "game forum" mentality.
[/quote]
I never denied to be my opinion, my point of view...
So are all messages considering that the games needs action gameplay to be a success.
I expressed myself why (in my opinion) tab targetting, action or... as in ashes of creation, hybrid is not a problem. all of them can be really excellent while in player's hand, all of them can push skill needed quite high.
And i already did a statement (again on my opinion) about "action being future" with other example from other genre, but lets do it again.
FF evolution swaped to different variant of turnbase to action system. evolution ? because the games want to live in their years ? What about bravely default that is totally a "old FF" with jobs, turnbase, and even the storytelling is "FF-style"
Could also point in FPS that CS and Doom are totally different gameplay, and both are excellent. Smite change deeply the character control of moba, and still a really good game.
Action is not "future" juste "another kind of gameplay" and the one which is the current "fashion" .
Only one thing is a problem around the character controll : good feelings when in player's hand. and it can be done lot of ways on each genre.
The 2 poll shared here show it well : some people prefer tab, other prefer action (slightly more action BUT really close) but over 80% of people will play a game even if it is not their favoured gameplay in it. And i am one of those, action or tab ... both are fine, i can perfectly play both (and can't even clearly say the one i would prefer)
And again, this is my opinions, and why i think this. i am not claiming i am the truth...
and to finish, i will say why i think swiching gameplay from hybrid to action would be highly risky :
When you work for months and years on a way and get a good result, and suddenly do a 180° it is always risky decision, you lose hours and hours of works, (so investment) you can't get back doing it.
No you do this 24/7
No I dont, I ask for clarification more than anything when in discussions, specifically in order to prevent this from happening.
If someone is either unable or unwilling to offer up those clarifications though, I cant be held to account if there is a misunderstanding - asking for clarification is me doing my part to avoid such things.
The ranged mechanic is already projectile based. You could blind shoot an arrow and if someone walks into it, they will get hit. So I wouldn't call it a 180. A couple tweaks and they could do something like make an arrow damage someone beyond the attack range with damage drop. For the lil zoomers, they could have an option to turn off soft-lock, but it'd never be optimal.
Their hybrid system is actually hybrid. The action elements are there so it won't be a lost in investment me thinks
Somewhat controversially, speaking as a lower skilled player, losing the top 10% of 'skill only' superb players will make my gameplay more enjoyable. But that would be a shame. So perhaps there should be a bonus for hits using action targeting, that usually requires more player skill. Like 5% extra damage because you were able 'to land the shot perfectly where it hurts'.
Discord
Forum