If alts could get separate housing and freeholds the game would have to support around 80k freeholds (or more if we'll have more than 8 char slots).
If it makes sense for a single player to have multiple alts with freeholds, then it will also make sense for someone to pay for multiple accounts to acquire freeholds that way.
My opinion is that they should either:
A ) Make it infeasible for a single player to acquire or maintain multiple freeholds, thus reducing the incentive to advance in the game via the purchase of multiple accounts.
OR
B ) Allow players to acquire freeholds using alts on their account.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There isn't a system in the game that pays you $15 a month so you can get another account to bypass the property restrictions.
The referral system can indeed pay you money to be used for your sub. So there is indeed a system to get another account for "free"
Oh I genuinely did not know that it gave you money. Like it's not embers or like in game currency? If that is true than I'm actually kind of okay with that.
If it makes sense for a single player to have multiple alts with freeholds, then it will also make sense for someone to pay for multiple accounts to acquire freeholds that way.
My opinion is that they should either:
A ) Make it infeasible for a single player to acquire or maintain multiple freeholds, thus reducing the incentive to advance in the game via the purchase of multiple accounts.
OR
B ) Allow players to acquire freeholds using alts on their account.
It's not about solo players though. Freeholds will already be a mechanic for people in guilds or groups because there's a limited amount of freeholds you can get and they'll be going up in prices with each new purchase.
If alts are allowed to have freeholds, rich guilds will just pump money into alts and get all the freeholds they can (which will always be more than solos can get). With 1-per-account this action is at least limited by money. Obviously anyone who wants to do it and has the money for it will do it, but there'll still be some non-game-related limitations.
If it makes sense for a single player to have multiple alts with freeholds, then it will also make sense for someone to pay for multiple accounts to acquire freeholds that way.
My opinion is that they should either:
A ) Make it infeasible for a single player to acquire or maintain multiple freeholds, thus reducing the incentive to advance in the game via the purchase of multiple accounts.
OR
B ) Allow players to acquire freeholds using alts on their account.
It's not about solo players though. Freeholds will already be a mechanic for people in guilds or groups because there's a limited amount of freeholds you can get and they'll be going up in prices with each new purchase.
If alts are allowed to have freeholds, rich guilds will just pump money into alts and get all the freeholds they can (which will always be more than solos can get). With 1-per-account this action is at least limited by money. Obviously anyone who wants to do it and has the money for it will do it, but there'll still be some non-game-related limitations.
Wouldn't guilds acquire all the freeholds anyway? Like whatever guild controls the node probably controls everything inside that node too right?
Wouldn't guilds acquire all the freeholds anyway? Like whatever guild controls the node probably controls everything inside that node too right?
Depending on the size of the node and the guild, yes. But again, there's a difference between a 100-member guilds having 100 freeholds and that same 100-member guild having upwards of 800 freeholds. Intrepid would have to either account for that possibility (which I already mentioned) or they'd have a shitton of homeless solo players on their hands.
Also, freeholds are meant to be a part of your citizenship and you're meant to have only one citizenship per account. So this would have to get changed too if alts could have their own freeholds. And then you have even more balancing problems.
Wouldn't guilds acquire all the freeholds anyway? Like whatever guild controls the node probably controls everything inside that node too right?
Depending on the size of the node and the guild, yes. But again, there's a difference between a 100-member guilds having 100 freeholds and that same 100-member guild having upwards of 800 freeholds. Intrepid would have to either account for that possibility (which I already mentioned) or they'd have a shitton of homeless solo players on their hands.
Also, freeholds are meant to be a part of your citizenship and you're meant to have only one citizenship per account. So this would have to get changed too if alts could have their own freeholds. And then you have even more balancing problems.
Oh I didn't know that about citizenship. Does that mean alts share citizenship? I kind of assumed alts shared the freehold, but could have their own homes.
Oh I didn't know that about citizenship. Does that mean alts share citizenship? I kind of assumed alts shared the freehold, but could have their own homes.
I was just double-checking that and the phrasing of the only quote on this issue is real weird for me so I don't really know. It sounds like your alts are homeless if your main has a citizenship, but then your alts are supposedly able to use the freehold so I'd assume the citizenship applies to them too.
I hope the citizenship applies to the whole account and not just to one char.
Oh I didn't know that about citizenship. Does that mean alts share citizenship? I kind of assumed alts shared the freehold, but could have their own homes.
I was just double-checking that and the phrasing of the only quote on this issue is real weird for me so I don't really know. It sounds like your alts are homeless if your main has a citizenship, but then your alts are supposedly able to use the freehold so I'd assume the citizenship applies to them too.
I hope the citizenship applies to the whole account and not just to one char.
Maybe they only let you have 1 vote per account but multiple citizenships.
There isn't a system in the game that pays you $15 a month so you can get another account to bypass the property restrictions.
The problem with this notion is that you are assuming that YOU need to have that property.
All you need to have in game in order to render a second freehold worthless is a friend.
If you have a friend, and they put in the processing equipment you need, then your freehold is worthless to you.
So, this isn't so much a pay to win feature as it is a pay to be an introvert feature.
Assuming you are after discussion and not just hyperbole and sensationalism, the above is literally the best argument you have. Anything past this point is sensationalism and/or hyperbole.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Citizenship is required to own housing, including freeholds, but there will be a permission system to allow other characters to access certain functions of your freehold (like entering, crafting, storage, etc.).
@ShadonSol The wording here is what's making me confused. The "one node between those three" instead of smth like "only one char can be a citizen" or anything along those lines. Maybe it's because english is not my first language and I just haven't heard the "between those ..." sentence structure before, but it really confused me.
That he is saying that citizenship is required for housing is probably where the confusion lies. Because it isn't.
You get housing, then you choose to gain citizenship.
Under Player Housing on the wiki.
Ability to claim citizenship to a node.[12]
Additional benefits are granted to home owners who are also citizens of that node.[11]
"Your account is bound to one declared citizenship per server, which means that if you have two alts and your main character on one server you may only be a citizen of one node between those three... If you have an alt on a different server, it could be a citizen of a node as well.[9] – Steven Sharif"
@ShadonSol The wording here is what's making me confused. The "one node between those three" instead of smth like "only one char can be a citizen" or anything along those lines. Maybe it's because english is not my first language and I just haven't heard the "between those ..." sentence structure before, but it really confused me.
The binding detail of the quotes section is in the first part: "Your account is bound to one declared citizenship per server,"
My understanding of the situation, explained as simply as I can, is that you're allowed to have housing (Freeholds, apartments, or in-node housing) in multiple nodes in a single server. Housing in a node is a prerequisite to have Citizenship in that node. Just because you have housing in that node doesn't automatically make you a citizen, but it means you can become a citizen of that node.
Therefore, you can declare yourself a citizen of a node that you have housing in. Then, if you later change your mind, you can quit being a citizen of that node, and join a different node you have housing in.
I might be wrong on specific details, but that's my understanding of the situation as it stands.
That he is saying that citizenship is required for housing is probably where the confusion lies. Because it isn't.
You get housing, then you choose to gain citizenship
Well yeah, I get that part, what I'm confused about is whether all 3 characters are considered citizens of the node or whether it's just one of them. The phrasing of the second part of the quote seems to indicate that only one of those 3 characters is a citizen.
And if that is the case then there will definitely be way more socializing between live people, because nodes seem to provide a ton of benefits to their citizens so pretty much any alt character will have fewer options when it comes to particular game mechanics.
"Only one citizenship may be declared per account, per server" is what the wiki says, though that's not a direct quote from Steven.
Until something contradicts it, I think this is an account-wide thing. If you're a citizen on one character, that's true for your entire account. This is likely to prevent easy espionage by letting you have a character that's going to be in a node war with your other character.
"Only one citizenship may be declared per account, per server" is what the wiki says, though that's not a direct quote from Steven.
Until something contradicts it, I think this is an account-wide thing. If you're a citizen on one character, that's true for your entire account. This is likely to prevent easy espionage by letting you have a character that's going to be in a node war with your other character.
Yeah, and that's exactly where my confusion comes from. It could mean that you just can't have 2 citizenships on one account, but it's still just one character that's a citizen and everyone else is a nomad, or it's "your whole account is a citizen of whichever node you choose".
Doesn't this massively incentivize having multiple accounts?
If my alts can't own property doesn't that make them much less useful?
If I need to pay $15 a month per alt account how is that not P2W?
There is only so much space for freeholds since they are actual locations on the map so you have to restrict people somehow.
And to be honest I don't want the restiction lifted so that only people who play 10 hours a day can get one. We all know that if people could have as many as they want, only a small percentage of the most hard core players would slowly gobble them all up.
As far as people spending exorbitant ammounts of time and money getting multiple free holds? How is Intrepid supposed to track this? No matter what, someone with enough time and money will find ways to get more than you but Intrepid should restrict things the best they can.
The argument that "I could hire another person to play an alt account for me and thus give me access to a second freehold, so the game is P2W" is not unique to this game and most people would not consider it as P2W.
The argument that "I could hire another person to play an alt account for me and thus give me access to a second freehold, so the game is P2W" is not unique to this game and most people would not consider it as P2W.
It doesn't require another person though. Paying for another account and leveling a character and getting a freehold can be done by one person, who can then transfer goods between his two characters and double his production all by himself.
This is NOT what would be happening. They are actually reducing their production considerably while they level the second profession. The OPPORTUNITY COST of doing everything yourself instead of outsourcing all but the most profitable processes usually outweighs.
This is NOT what would be happening. They are actually reducing their production considerably while they level the second profession. The OPPORTUNITY COST of doing everything yourself instead of outsourcing all but the most profitable processes usually outweighs.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
This is NOT what would be happening. They are actually reducing their production considerably while they level the second profession. The OPPORTUNITY COST of doing everything yourself instead of outsourcing all but the most profitable processes usually outweighs.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
So the solution is to have something to do all the time on your main character
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
This is NOT what would be happening. They are actually reducing their production considerably while they level the second profession. The OPPORTUNITY COST of doing everything yourself instead of outsourcing all but the most profitable processes usually outweighs.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
Right, the time and effort is one barrier to entry and the money is another. The more barriers you put in place, the fewer people you will be capable and/or willing to do it.
With monthly money (not just one time impulse) as a gate, it limits the number of people who will want to do that long term.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
There is nothing better to do? Why not make money with your maxed profession? If you are describing some sort of completionism drive, then yeah you're right. But it doesn't make a lot of economic sense unless the profession is garbage by design or the player is bad at playing markets.
In an economic sense, there ABSOLUTELY is opportunity cost to leveling a second profession:
My main uses 10g worth of LEAF to make 15g worth of OIL. It takes me 1 hour to gather the 10g worth of materials on my alt, but I can turn LEAF into OIL in 10 minutes. Why wouldn't I just buy the LEAFs if my gathering profit is only 10g/h while my crafting profit is 60g/h? The answer is that you think when you are finished leveling gathering you will be able to gather more than 60g/h profit.... but most people don't make that calculation.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
There is nothing better to do? Why not make money with your maxed profession? If you are describing some sort of completionism drive, then yeah you're right. But it doesn't make a lot of economic sense unless the profession is garbage by design or the player is bad at playing markets.
In an economic sense, there ABSOLUTELY is opportunity cost to leveling a second profession:
My main uses 10g worth of LEAF to make 15g worth of OIL. It takes me 1 hour to gather the 10g worth of materials on my alt, but I can turn LEAF into OIL in 10 minutes. Why wouldn't I just buy the LEAFs if my gathering profit is only 10g/h while my crafting profit is 60g/h? The answer is that you think when you are finished leveling gathering you will be able to gather more than 60g/h profit.... but most people don't make that calculation.
Why would I not be gathering leaves on my alt while I'm waiting for the oil to process? I'm not saying gathering makes more money than crafting or processing but it's better than nothing. Whenever you have any downtime, you are better of doing something on your alt while you wait for something to do.
Why would I not be gathering leaves on my alt while I'm waiting for the oil to process? I'm not saying gathering makes more money than crafting or processing but it's better than nothing. Whenever you have any downtime, you are better of doing something on your alt while you wait for something to do.
I was under the impression that all artisanships would be designed as non-AFK activities, and as such playing multiple accounts efficiently at the same time was unlikely. I'd agree with you if that turns out to be the case. It seems to me like they are well-aware of multiboxing and are trying to design their game to minimize the benefits of such.
Back to the topic at hand though, it seems to me like the freehold itself will have a cost, and that it will have ample space for whatever you want to do on all of your characters..... if you want literally every crafting station, it seems like 5 acres would be enough to have them all on a single account's freehold. In addition you likely will be able to go to a friend's freehold and use their shit with their permission, so you won't need every station on your freehold or multiple accounts' freeholds anyway.
Why would I not be gathering leaves on my alt while I'm waiting for the oil to process? I'm not saying gathering makes more money than crafting or processing but it's better than nothing. Whenever you have any downtime, you are better of doing something on your alt while you wait for something to do.
I was under the impression that all artisanships would be designed as non-AFK activities, and as such playing multiple accounts efficiently at the same time was unlikely. I'd agree with you if that turns out to be the case. It seems to me like they are well-aware of multiboxing and are trying to design their game to minimize the benefits of such.
Back to the topic at hand though, it seems to me like the freehold itself will have a cost, and that it will have ample space for whatever you want to do on all of your characters..... if you want literally every crafting station, it seems like 5 acres would be enough to have them all on a single account's freehold. In addition you likely will be able to go to a friend's freehold and use their shit with their permission, so you won't need every station on your freehold or multiple accounts' freeholds anyway.
If I can do everything on one freehold and everything requires me to be actively doing it than that would be great.
The easiest way to deal with this mentality is by agreeing: yes, it's P2W, but it's better than any other type of P2W.
What is the logic here? That "winning" means having the prettiest JPGs?
Nothing in an MMO matters inherently, it's just a video game meant to provide entertainment. If you care more about how your character looks than how much damage it does than technically yeah it's P2W in a sense. Think about RPers right.
Comments
If it makes sense for a single player to have multiple alts with freeholds, then it will also make sense for someone to pay for multiple accounts to acquire freeholds that way.
My opinion is that they should either:
A ) Make it infeasible for a single player to acquire or maintain multiple freeholds, thus reducing the incentive to advance in the game via the purchase of multiple accounts.
OR
B ) Allow players to acquire freeholds using alts on their account.
The referral system can indeed pay you money to be used for your sub. So there is indeed a system to get another account for "free"
Oh I genuinely did not know that it gave you money. Like it's not embers or like in game currency? If that is true than I'm actually kind of okay with that.
If alts are allowed to have freeholds, rich guilds will just pump money into alts and get all the freeholds they can (which will always be more than solos can get). With 1-per-account this action is at least limited by money. Obviously anyone who wants to do it and has the money for it will do it, but there'll still be some non-game-related limitations.
Wouldn't guilds acquire all the freeholds anyway? Like whatever guild controls the node probably controls everything inside that node too right?
Also, freeholds are meant to be a part of your citizenship and you're meant to have only one citizenship per account. So this would have to get changed too if alts could have their own freeholds. And then you have even more balancing problems.
Oh I didn't know that about citizenship. Does that mean alts share citizenship? I kind of assumed alts shared the freehold, but could have their own homes.
I hope the citizenship applies to the whole account and not just to one char.
Maybe they only let you have 1 vote per account but multiple citizenships.
The problem with this notion is that you are assuming that YOU need to have that property.
All you need to have in game in order to render a second freehold worthless is a friend.
If you have a friend, and they put in the processing equipment you need, then your freehold is worthless to you.
So, this isn't so much a pay to win feature as it is a pay to be an introvert feature.
Assuming you are after discussion and not just hyperbole and sensationalism, the above is literally the best argument you have. Anything past this point is sensationalism and/or hyperbole.
That he is saying that citizenship is required for housing is probably where the confusion lies. Because it isn't.
You get housing, then you choose to gain citizenship.
Under Player Housing on the wiki.
Ability to claim citizenship to a node.[12]
Additional benefits are granted to home owners who are also citizens of that node.[11]
My understanding of the situation, explained as simply as I can, is that you're allowed to have housing (Freeholds, apartments, or in-node housing) in multiple nodes in a single server. Housing in a node is a prerequisite to have Citizenship in that node. Just because you have housing in that node doesn't automatically make you a citizen, but it means you can become a citizen of that node.
Therefore, you can declare yourself a citizen of a node that you have housing in. Then, if you later change your mind, you can quit being a citizen of that node, and join a different node you have housing in.
I might be wrong on specific details, but that's my understanding of the situation as it stands.
And if that is the case then there will definitely be way more socializing between live people, because nodes seem to provide a ton of benefits to their citizens so pretty much any alt character will have fewer options when it comes to particular game mechanics.
Until something contradicts it, I think this is an account-wide thing. If you're a citizen on one character, that's true for your entire account. This is likely to prevent easy espionage by letting you have a character that's going to be in a node war with your other character.
Hope someone asks this for the monthly stream.
There is only so much space for freeholds since they are actual locations on the map so you have to restrict people somehow.
And to be honest I don't want the restiction lifted so that only people who play 10 hours a day can get one. We all know that if people could have as many as they want, only a small percentage of the most hard core players would slowly gobble them all up.
As far as people spending exorbitant ammounts of time and money getting multiple free holds? How is Intrepid supposed to track this? No matter what, someone with enough time and money will find ways to get more than you but Intrepid should restrict things the best they can.
It doesn't require another person though. Paying for another account and leveling a character and getting a freehold can be done by one person, who can then transfer goods between his two characters and double his production all by himself.
The opportunity cost isn't higher though. You start working on your alts when you've already done everything on your main character. So there is nothing better to do at that point.
Once my main character is finished with all the current content he is capable of doing, the best thing I can do is make alt characters who can do stuff that he isn't capable of doing.
I'm talking about genuinely hardcore players here as well, so we're assuming well over 200hrs a month of playtime.
So the solution is to have something to do all the time on your main character
Right, the time and effort is one barrier to entry and the money is another. The more barriers you put in place, the fewer people you will be capable and/or willing to do it.
With monthly money (not just one time impulse) as a gate, it limits the number of people who will want to do that long term.
It can never be zero, but fewer is better.
Im fine with even more barriers.
There is nothing better to do? Why not make money with your maxed profession? If you are describing some sort of completionism drive, then yeah you're right. But it doesn't make a lot of economic sense unless the profession is garbage by design or the player is bad at playing markets.
In an economic sense, there ABSOLUTELY is opportunity cost to leveling a second profession:
My main uses 10g worth of LEAF to make 15g worth of OIL. It takes me 1 hour to gather the 10g worth of materials on my alt, but I can turn LEAF into OIL in 10 minutes. Why wouldn't I just buy the LEAFs if my gathering profit is only 10g/h while my crafting profit is 60g/h? The answer is that you think when you are finished leveling gathering you will be able to gather more than 60g/h profit.... but most people don't make that calculation.
Why would I not be gathering leaves on my alt while I'm waiting for the oil to process? I'm not saying gathering makes more money than crafting or processing but it's better than nothing. Whenever you have any downtime, you are better of doing something on your alt while you wait for something to do.
I was under the impression that all artisanships would be designed as non-AFK activities, and as such playing multiple accounts efficiently at the same time was unlikely. I'd agree with you if that turns out to be the case. It seems to me like they are well-aware of multiboxing and are trying to design their game to minimize the benefits of such.
Back to the topic at hand though, it seems to me like the freehold itself will have a cost, and that it will have ample space for whatever you want to do on all of your characters..... if you want literally every crafting station, it seems like 5 acres would be enough to have them all on a single account's freehold. In addition you likely will be able to go to a friend's freehold and use their shit with their permission, so you won't need every station on your freehold or multiple accounts' freeholds anyway.
If I can do everything on one freehold and everything requires me to be actively doing it than that would be great.
Remember that dude in these forums a couple of years ago that wouldn't stop saying "cosmetics are a type of P2W"?
The easiest way to deal with this mentality is by agreeing: yes, it's P2W, but it's better than any other type of P2W.
There are a few folks with that opinion. One of those threads caught fire only a few months ago.
What is the logic here? That "winning" means having the prettiest JPGs?
Nothing in an MMO matters inherently, it's just a video game meant to provide entertainment. If you care more about how your character looks than how much damage it does than technically yeah it's P2W in a sense. Think about RPers right.