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Artisan Class Restriction.

I don't really see a point in limiting the 2-3 master professions to the same artisan class.
All it does is force your mining and metalworking to be done on two different characters.
If it's not going to be account bound can we just have 2-3 master professions across all 3 artisan classes?
I don't mind forcing alts but if the only crafting profession I want is armor smithing than the other 2 professions I'm allowed to have are useless.
If I want to have a master miner, metalworker, and armor smith I need 3 characters.
But if I want a master miner, lumberjack, and herbalist, I only need 1 character.
It doesn't prevent me from doing it, it just requires more time investment.
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Comments

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay.
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  • You gotta have a different approach on the thing itself. Look at it as a lifetime profession. IRL you're probably a Blacksmith, so your artisan class is Crafting.
    As a Blacksmith you work for 20 years to master your profession. After 20 years of smithing anything from horseshoes to iron kettles you decide to try something new: Armor Smithing. Well, you are in your 40s already and can adapt to a different workflow pretty quickly, but you eventually will never be an Armor Smith as good as some guy who startet Armor Smithing in his 20s.
    Thereby you'll never be able to be a great Gahterer or Processor since everything you've ever done was Blacksmithing. For me it is only logical that a person can only truly master one Profession within one Artisan Class and maybe become pretty good in the same field of work.
    And I personally don't believe that Intrepid intended this as an alt-"forcing".
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  • AlmostDeadAlmostDead Member, Alpha Two
    I think the point is to create dependencies and interactions with other players, plus ensure the value of your mastered professions. If everyone can do everything, that's not special, and it reduces the value of your profession.

    And yet I understand your point about alts.

    Maybe the solution is to drop the restrictions, but make it so hard, so arduous, so tedious to become a top level master in any profession that it's really not practical or desirable for a player to do more than 2-3, even with alts. This would allow the people who want to spend 15 hours a day in Ashes to play without restriction, while still retaining the value of mastered professions.
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    I don't really see a point in limiting the 2-3 master professions to the same artisan class.

    I do: socialization, cooperation, dependency, basic economics and attrition.

    Cheers
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • JROCthaGreatJROCthaGreat Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay.

    NW economy was and still is Hot garbage, lol the only way you can make it so that everybody can actually eventually do everything, and it doesn't affect the economy is you have to make crafting so hard and so long. that most won't bother and even those that do, most won't get halfway threw it.
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I don't really see a point in limiting the 2-3 master professions to the same artisan class.

    I do: socialization, cooperation, dependency, basic economics and attrition.

    Cheers

    Exactly it has a better chance of creating a much more diverse economy. Better communities, etc. And actually its gives every server a chance to have very different economies
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    I would actually rather see account bound profession mastery locks. Without it the people who can play 20 hours a day have a much larger advantage, not because they are grinding the loot better/harder but because they can do things other players CAN'T do. Already alts will provide some potentially significant advantages, best to limit those as much as possible imo.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    I would actually rather see account bound profession mastery locks. Without it the people who can play 20 hours a day have a much larger advantage, not because they are grinding the loot better/harder but because they can do things other players CAN'T do. Already alts will provide some potentially significant advantages, best to limit those as much as possible imo.

    Don't agree with this, if someone is playing more that is on them. Those types always exist in any mmorpg, what id rather see in some tie in of progression not limited to just being given mats from their other character. But actual investment that takes time to increase their artisan level.

    If people are more casual because of work/etc it doesn't mean there needs to be some implementations to reduce other player gains. Not every player should expect to be the strongest in the game, what is more beneficial is proper teamwork between your guild.
  • SummpwnerSummpwner Member, Alpha Two
    Another point to remember with the arisan classes is that you will be able to do SOME things from all of them. This isn't like WOW where you have to go learn herbalism to pick up silverleaf... every character will be able to do gathering in the early-game, and likely will be able to craft basic starter gear, and all that stuff. You can only MASTER 1 tree, 3 disciplines.... but you can try everything.
  • SummpwnerSummpwner Member, Alpha Two
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    I would actually rather see account bound profession mastery locks. Without it the people who can play 20 hours a day have a much larger advantage, not because they are grinding the loot better/harder but because they can do things other players CAN'T do. Already alts will provide some potentially significant advantages, best to limit those as much as possible imo.

    Players who do this only circumvent money changing hands, at the expense of their own time.... but is it worth their time to do that instead of just buying the crafts and selling the product?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    NW economy was and still is Hot garbage, lol the only way you can make it so that everybody can actually eventually do everything, and it doesn't affect the economy is you have to make crafting so hard and so long. that most won't bother and even those that do, most won't get halfway threw it.
    Which is exactly what the current system is. Yes, you can go and get your alts to level their artisanry too, but it'll take you forever. And you also won't have enough alts on one account to get all the professions to the max, so you'd have to buy another account if you really wanted to do everything. And I personally love that.
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    I would actually rather see account bound profession mastery locks. Without it the people who can play 20 hours a day have a much larger advantage, not because they are grinding the loot better/harder but because they can do things other players CAN'T do. Already alts will provide some potentially significant advantages, best to limit those as much as possible imo.
    I'd probably be against full mastery locks, but I could see account-locking a branch of the artisan tree, so you could max out one of the three branches, but nothing else.

    The time required to do that should still be huge and you'll obviously have to cooperate with a ton of other people due to how artisan interdependencies work, but at some point in time you'll reach a point where you're the master gatherer/processer/crafter of your node.

    And if true nerds want to pay Intrepid more money to spend even more time on all the other professions - I say let them.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay.

    No doubt that was sarcasm but if the crafting trees are going to as laborious to become a master in, as they are implying, then why not? If it requires a very long time and loads of materials then what would they harm be in letting people do all professions? They would spend an insane amount of mats and time trying to cover them all to the point that none would achieve the end goal. The only caveat to this would be to limit the number of gathering professions. After that processing and crafting could be learned by all.

    The crafting in New World is a bad joke from a bad design and isn't fitting to use as a comparison to, pretty much anything.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Rhorden wrote: »
    No doubt that was sarcasm but if the crafting trees are going to as laborious to become a master in, as they are implying, then why not? If it requires a very long time and loads of materials then what would they harm be in letting people do all professions? They would spend an insane amount of mats and time trying to cover them all to the point that none would achieve the end goal. The only caveat to this would be to limit the number of gathering professions. After that processing and crafting could be learned by all.
    Imo it's about the longevity of the game and "lategame" player reputation. Sooner or later the real nerds will start making everything on their own. And the further you go into the game's life, the more diluted the professions would become.

    I could maaaybe agree with adding one mastery slot for each big expansion that adds new professions (if they ever gonna do that). This way people interested in that profession won't have to get another alt for it, while all the new players would be able to get more masteries in the long run.

    Though, I haven't played OSRS so I dunno how its character progression goes, but from what I've heard you can do everything in that game but it takes you years to do so. And I'd be interested in learning how many people have achieved the mastery in all the things (if anyone even has) and what kind of impact it had on the game's economy/gameplay. But OSRS is also a fairly unique game in itself, so it'd be hard to compare its experiences to what Ashes wants to have.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    This is an mmo with an economy system. Not eso/ff14. You cant have players be selfsufficient and expect a good economy and social gameplay.
  • BaSkA13 wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I don't really see a point in limiting the 2-3 master professions to the same artisan class.

    I do: socialization, cooperation, dependency, basic economics and attrition.

    Cheers

    But I can just do it with alts by myself... how does that add any of those things.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    But I can just do it with alts by myself... how does that add any of those things.
    If you have the time to do it all by yourself, you're welcome to do it. Mastering just one profession would probably take at least a few weeks, and that's if you have all the proper resources to do it. Mastering several will take months and would require a huge capital or even more time. And even once you do master them all on all of your alts, you'll still need to fight others for the resources and then send them up your production chain, so it's not like it would be super easy to just do it all yourself. Or, again, you'd need a huge capital that would provide you with the resources needed.
  • It seems like no one in this thread understands how much free time some players have. It'll only take like 200hrs to level to max in ashes of creation.

    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Obviously most players won't do this, but for the players that will, my original post was wondering; how important we want alts to be.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    But I can just do it with alts by myself... how does that add any of those things.
    If you have the time to do it all by yourself, you're welcome to do it. Mastering just one profession would probably take at least a few weeks, and that's if you have all the proper resources to do it. Mastering several will take months and would require a huge capital or even more time. And even once you do master them all on all of your alts, you'll still need to fight others for the resources and then send them up your production chain, so it's not like it would be super easy to just do it all yourself. Or, again, you'd need a huge capital that would provide you with the resources needed.

    It doesn't seem like processing or crafting has any major risks involved. If my main character is the gatherer he'll have my best gear. My alts will be protected in the freehold where they can process and craft. Obviously wars and events can damage/destroy freeholds but that has nothing to do with the general safety of processors and crafters.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    It seems like no one in this thread understands how much free time some players have. It'll only take like 200hrs to level to max in ashes of creation.

    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Obviously most players won't do this, but for the players that will, my original post was wondering; how important we want alts to be.
    I'm literally gonna be one of those players. I have all the time in the day every day to play the game and planning on playing it all that time. I'm gonna be making alts and leveling them and all of that. And I want those professions to take as long as possible. And for resources to be as rare as possible, so that I couldn't just "be self-sufficient" just because I have more time than others.

    Taking almost a year to have 3 chars that can craft a thing on one chain of the overall artisan system is as fair as it gets imo.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    It doesn't seem like processing or crafting has any major risks involved. If my main character is the gatherer he'll have my best gear. My alts will be protected in the freehold where they can process and craft. Obviously wars and events can damage/destroy freeholds but that has nothing to do with the general safety of processors and crafters.
    Yes, and you need the gatherables to even start using your processers and crafters. Which was my point. Yes, your gatherer will be well-geared, but are you sure that you'll be able to fight against several people who work together while you yourself are solo?

    Because I'm fairly sure that any high lvl/value gatherer will have protection with him, because that gatherer will be in a guild or just in a group of people who leveled different artisans and now support their gatherer so that solo players like you can't do shit to him.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Maybe that's the misunderstanding then?
    The Wiki wrote:
    A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2]

    It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7]
    A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5]
    (ref: Artisan classes)

    With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    It doesn't seem like processing or crafting has any major risks involved. If my main character is the gatherer he'll have my best gear. My alts will be protected in the freehold where they can process and craft. Obviously wars and events can damage/destroy freeholds but that has nothing to do with the general safety of processors and crafters.
    Yes, and you need the gatherables to even start using your processers and crafters. Which was my point. Yes, your gatherer will be well-geared, but are you sure that you'll be able to fight against several people who work together while you yourself are solo?

    Because I'm fairly sure that any high lvl/value gatherer will have protection with him, because that gatherer will be in a guild or just in a group of people who leveled different artisans and now support their gatherer so that solo players like you can't do shit to him.

    Why would I be a solo player. Obviously my main character would be in a guild and be raiding. If the gathering meta required me to have other players protecting me than I'd have bodyguards, but I really doubt that would be the meta.
  • SongRune wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Maybe that's the misunderstanding then?
    The Wiki wrote:
    A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2]

    It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7]
    A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5]
    (ref: Artisan classes)

    With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account.

    You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other.

    Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example.
    Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient.
    Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    Why would I be a solo player. Obviously my main character would be in a guild and be raiding. If the gathering meta required me to have other players protecting me than I'd have bodyguards, but I really doubt that would be the meta.
    Then why waste time on leveling several alts when you can cooperate with your guildmates and achieve the same goal much much faster?

    And if you're assuming that all the other time-hardcore players will also be in guilds, then how would them having artisan alts be any different from them just working together with their mates?
  • NiKr wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    Why would I be a solo player. Obviously my main character would be in a guild and be raiding. If the gathering meta required me to have other players protecting me than I'd have bodyguards, but I really doubt that would be the meta.
    Then why waste time on leveling several alts when you can cooperate with your guildmates and achieve the same goal much much faster?

    And if you're assuming that all the other time-hardcore players will also be in guilds, then how would them having artisan alts be any different from them just working together with their mates?

    Alts are very useful for guilds. If I can harvest more resources that means I can supply my guild with more resources too. I'd expect basically every hardcore player to have a gathering character either on launch or soon after, whether it's their main or an alt.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    Alts are very useful for guilds. If I can harvest more resources that means I can supply my guild with more resources too. I'd expect basically every hardcore player to have a gathering character either on launch or soon after, whether it's their main or an alt.
    Yeah, and this would require twice the investment into the guild. But even if this didn't require an alt and was just available on your main, there's still a limited amount of resources in the open world, so it's not like if your whole guild has top lvl gathering that you'd suddenly be able to gather more stuff.

    And if people use their alts to gather during off hours, that only means that there's fewer protectors around to defend them from other guilds whose primetime is different from your guild's.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    SongRune wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Maybe that's the misunderstanding then?
    The Wiki wrote:
    A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2]

    It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7]
    A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5]
    (ref: Artisan classes)

    With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account.

    You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other.

    Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example.
    Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient.
    Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes.

    There will be players who do this in any situation. Even if they need multiple accounts to do so. While this may be additional discouragement to some, it will not be to others, and in fact tends more toward pay to win.

    The current system prevents pay to win by allowing players to use their alts for this. Some players will choose to do this, and they should be allowed to. The time they invest in it is time they could spend doing something else that they prefer, make money from that, and pay for whatever else. That 98% of players will support the desired economy. If a particular person is really into crafting, there's no reason to stop them.
  • SongRune wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    SongRune wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    I'd say 3 months after launch most super hard core players will have at least one max level alt character that is a master of whatever artisan class their other character needs. After another couple months they'll have their second alt and be totally self sufficient with three characters mastering each artisan class.

    Maybe that's the misunderstanding then?
    The Wiki wrote:
    A character may only master one of the three parent artisan classes.[2]

    It is possible to master up to two or three professions within this mastered artisan class per character (subject to testing).[5][6][2][7]
    A character will be able to achieve up to tier 3 or tier 4 proficiency in professions that are not mastered.[5]
    (ref: Artisan classes)

    With at least 9 Processing professions, 8 Crafting professions, and 5 Gathering professions, you'd need no less than 8 characters (if they choose 3 subspecialties) or 12 (if they choose 2). There probably won't be 12 character slots per account.

    You don't need to master every profession, just the ones relating to each other.

    Herbalism -> Alchemy has nothing to do with weapon smithing for example.
    Your 2 characters are now self-sufficient.
    Those 2 characters could also have Mining -> Metalworking according to how master professions are limited to their parent classes.

    There will be players who do this in any situation. Even if they need multiple accounts to do so. While this may be additional discouragement to some, it will not be to others, and in fact tends more toward pay to win.

    The current system prevents pay to win by allowing players to use their alts for this. Some players will choose to do this, and they should be allowed to. The time they invest in it is time they could spend doing something else that they prefer, make money from that, and pay for whatever else. That 98% of players will support the desired economy. If a particular person is really into crafting, there's no reason to stop them.

    Yeah, so what I originally was asking is why even force it on alts. Why not allow one character to do it without making an alt. I'm not saying its better or worse just a simple question.
  • pyrealpyreal Member, Warrior of Old, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    I'd personally love to see the NW approach. Just let everyone do everything. I'm sure that would in no way impact the planned economy or gameplay.

    Totally agree. Restrictions of any kind are just anti-good.

    Its not fair that I can't be a Master Gatherer, Master Processor, and a Master Craftsman, let alone a Master Carpenter and a Master Tailor!

    Whom shall make the gingham tablecloths just so for my trellis tables and half top wall table?!
  • NiKr wrote: »
    But even if this didn't require an alt and was just available on your main, there's still a limited amount of resources in the open world, so it's not like if your whole guild has top lvl gathering that you'd suddenly be able to gather more stuff.

    It absolutely would. If there is enough resources for 10,000 people than a single guild will always be able to work harder to obtain more. A guild where every member is a gatherer will gather more resources than a guild where some members are not. That's just a basic fact.
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