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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Assuming Chopping tree drops white common items known as Lumber and Lumber is valueable and the community agrees it should flag you.
Maybe - havent thought everything out yet
the first 100 lumber doesnt soft flag you but 101+ does. Normally you can carry 1k-5k-10k for all I know. But now you are forced to constantly run back n forth for a slow meager pace.
This can happened until you meet a certain profession level or something before this SMALL protection wears off???
This also, Perhaps helps identify botters, since most bot farmers will do everything in their power not to get pvp, and GM hopefully have tools to idenitfy legit gatherers playing SUPER SAFE vs botters???
different type of risk/reward
I HAVENT THOUGHT THIS OUT FULLY - might be a horrible idea for all I know.
UO, EQ, WoW had trash loot. Hell D&D had trash loot too
I honestly cant recall a mmo without it. Ragnarok, bunch of Korean MMO.
I played most eastern mmo outside of eq/wow/uo. No experience in Lineage, Archage, Mortal, Conan, etc.
Right, but why?
For contrast if you care, FFXI does not have Trash Loot.
You could, if you wanted to, REALLY stretch the definition of it, but overall... it just doesn't. Now, this game is VERY hardcore in specific ways, but it doesn't have it.
Why do other games have it?
I keep hearing about high lv players killing low lv players. Why would the do that?
No reason. Will they do that? Well, 99.99% they wont, due to losing items upon death as a red player.
Will there be griefers? Yes. Will they always kill the victim? Definately no.
Should there be a resisign of the successful L2 flagging system, because people that havent played/understood how important the conflict of interest is in an open world mmo with a serious crafting/economy system?
Hell no.
Will I PK innocent players? Yes, if I want all the mobs in the area for my group.
Is it griefing? No, my reason is to have top xp/farm per hour in the area and I dont want other players around.
Will the victim QQ? Probably. Should there be a system to protect him/her?
No. Because that would make AoC similar to all the other safe mmos out there. Go play those.
Will AoC lose potential players?
Yes.
Could Steven make more money if he didnt bother to make the game he wants and the game that so many other oldschool mmo players want?
Yes.
Will Steven provide players options to avoid losing?
No.
Does he care if this game wont be for everybody?
No, but "our feedback is welcome. "But we might not go with that direction".
But what doesn't make sense?
- Ganking lowbies (Potentially addressed with corruption system)
- Killing gatherers (semi addressed with corruption)
- Killing Adventurers leveling up, not really lowbies but within 1-7 level differences.
Ganking lowbies should be fixed via corruption, corruption penalty can scale the amount so killing a lowbie could be 10 times+ more penelaty loss than killing somone withing 3 level of you, which is what i suspect cause this would be griefing since they have 0 chance to win.
Killing Gatherers, there is a reason why somone might wanna kill gatherers one is to prevent/slow neighbouring nodes from progressing economicly aswell as leveliing up which could be a good strat to get your node up faster than your neighbours. So PvP can be a tool to get your node you call home ahead of the neighbours one that could stop your node progression. Corruption should stop you being able to do this often though which is fine.
Killing people leveling near your level range isnt neccesarily bad cause you could simply be defending the spawn/area your farming the loosing player has the option to either move somewhere else, try and kill the other person or socialise and ask for help which i think is fair.
Social interactions in MMO especialy negatives one i found tend to leave a lasting impression which makes the games more memorable atleast from what ive seen and overcoming these thing often feel more rewarding, The game isnt for everyone but if you can accept being attacked from time to time then i think this gamne would leave a more lasting impression.
We cant realy comment on PvP tbh atm since we dont know the corruption penalty ratio of how many green can u kill before u drop gear or if we can kill lowbies (which i hope not) but i dont think we should be making all these anti pvp posts until we see corruption and how it works.
Good video imo
I understand why people are against PvP griefing, unfortunately however, two people might disagree regarding what can be considered griefing and what cannot. In my view, your idea doesn't "fix" any of the "problems" we might have with the current system (which is not perfect and will need to be balanced during testing), instead it adds unnecessary complexity to it and even creates some problems.
If I understand your idea correctly and if it was implemented, I'd give everyone I see a love tap, if they can't be attacked it means they aren't soft flagged, so I'll just keep doing it until I find someone who is worth killing. In other words, let's remove the risk of getting corruption for killing people carrying jack shit and turn people who are carrying good loot into beacons of death.
Respectfully, the more I hear ideas to help against griefing or whatever people say their intentions are, the more I become sure that the current system is actually pretty good.
Regardless of any of our preferences, though, I'd bet Steven will end up switching to a PvP system/mechanics similar to EVE's or Albion's, that segregates the player base (which is very bad for many reasons, IMO) but keeps most of the PvE and PvP audiences happy. Maybe this month they'll announce more nullsec zones or maybe they'll announce the first highsec zone, which will then confirm my hunch.
thanks for telling me u didnt finish reading the original post.
you got the concept wrong.
First of all, why are you love tapping for? Resources I assume, not just mindlessly killing someone for the funsies.
If it's the latter - that needs to be addressed. (which I am trying to do)
If it's for the potential resource he/she is carrying let's continue on.
Regardless of my idea being added - INTENTION was there, you planned to kill someone for their resources.
Instead of suggesting a TOGGLE pvp bullshit - I am suggesting, carrying specific items, mats, resources toggles you into PVP. So now, you can leave the PVE player alone who has nothing to loot.
Now - this soft flag system does not prevent a high level player looking to kill low level gatherers with resources. All it does, it allows you to initiate the PVP and thus initiate Steven's Corruption system. I am not changing that corruption. So the attacker doesnt gain/lose corruption, since i am not changing it. That still goes through.
I merely protected the PvE guy who has nothing of value.
What is Considered Value?
Mats, Resources from gathering trees, rocks, etc. Practically 90% of the things for all we know can be considered value and soft flag you into PvP.
An example I used prior - a level 10 player killing orcs, his intention is to just level up and make a little bit of coins.
Orc drops 4 items. Trash White Armor, Trash White Weapon, Orc Beads and a Rabbit Foot. That Rabbit Foot is a valuable resource.
Trash White Armor/Weapon - Can it soft flag you?
MAYBE - DOES AoC has a way to deconstruct / Smelt Weapon/Armor? IF SO, these items valuable and will soft flag you.
Orc Beads, can it soft flag you?
NO - this provide no crafting benefit, has no benefits to economy, growth or anything. It could be a quest item only or simply a grey trash item that sells for meager coins only.
Rabbit Foot, can it soft flag you?
YES - It is a valuable mat needed for crafters to increase their chance of not failing their weaponsmithing.
Now the player decides - Should I loot everything and risk being softflag or just take the quest item and/or grey trash item. I got my xp and some coins from this kill.
If he/she takes the Rabbit Foot - ALL IS FAIR - he opted into PvP by taking a flaggable item. Sure it sucks getting ganked by a 60 now, but he/she knew the risk now. The only protection left for that player is the corruption system - if he chooses not to fight back.
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No reason. Will they do that? Well, 99.99% they wont, due to losing items upon death as a red player.
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Current system is flawed imho. If you check my post history, long time ago, I was trying to advocate a reason to allow Perma Reds be a thing and give pro's and cons, risk and benefits for reds.
Look at my signature. I was raised with Ultima Online, Full fucking loot. If given the chance to gank for funs on lowbies, I have and will continue to do so. I do not like half ass systems however and from my experiences, I can see things that can prevents certain stuff.
It's just an adaption of opt into pvp, almost everything in this came should opt you into pvp aka soft flag you.
Are you carrying mats, resources that are needed to build nodes, towns, guilds, factions, sieges, crafting stuff, etc? YES - you are opted into PvP cause I want your shit.
But if you're just a naked with grey trash items. I shouldn't be able to kill you for no reason.
now you bring another aspect I didnt think of - Clearing an area PvP.
This is valid now - so maybe we can come up with a solution.
Maybe PvP and Soft Flag is nuance.
This might sound contradicting but I assure it's not.
So, a level 60 cant kill a level 10 player unless level 10 player is soft flag.
Same can be said, a level 60 cant attack a level 60 who isnt soft flag, right? INCORRECT.
So, maybe there should be a criteria/floor - if you're within a level range, a soft flag is already applied.
A naked 55 will be soft flagged to all lvl 50-60 (+/- 5 levels).
The is a quick cheap, semi solution to what you proposed.
Clearing and securing Area via PVP
If we have a soft flag that also triggers if players are within fair fight range or decent range (+/- 10 level difference) - than that clears that up. You gotta fight n call for help to defend or take over a spot. This aspect of the game should be promoted.
But if your a high level trying to secure a low level camp against lowbies - you shouldnt. If you are doing it for your low level guildies - they can still accomplish this by initating the fights, since they are within the pvp leveling range. You just cant do much - YOU CAN but subject to corruption, MAYBE? IDK tbh. I don't want to deter away from this. So this complicates things for sure. Interesting. I'm too tired to think deeply for a resolution.
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exception to these rules - guild wars, faction wars, any declared wars - 60s can go full fucking ham on lowbies of the opposing team. But most of these are opt in PVP mechanics afiak. So you're at war with guild B and guild B is doing lvl 10 dungeon and u want it for your lvl 10 guilds - go ham. no corruption since ya 2 declared war.
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i dont have the answers to everything or thought of every possible thing. But WE CAN WORK ON IT, to make it meaningful.
my end goal is only to protect 1 type of player - the PVE who is just leveling up.
they can accomplish that by avoiding carrying specific items that will soft target them.
Now bullying them out of an area - valid point - up to Steven / TOS to determine how they wanna rule that.
I provided a half ass concept idea for it but may not be much. Personally it's scummy, but I get it.
Here are the reasons why:
1. If the corruption system is done correctly high level players won't be randomly killing low level players. Who is going to want to spend hours working off the corruption while risking their high level gear just to kill a low lvl.
2. You soft flag system shows how little you actually know about ashes as it doesn't take into consideration moving materials or seasons changing.
A. Just because those mob drops are worthless here where they are aquired doesn't mean they are worthless everywhere.
B. Those berries you picked in spring worth 1c could be worth a crap ton come winter when they haven't been harvestable in 2 seasons.
3. Who are you to tell me and my guild that we can't try to control the economy on lumber and hold as much of a monopoly on it to jack up prices. Might be worthless now but if we control it value it goes up exponentially.
AND LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY.
You are criticizing and trying to change a system that has yet to be showcased let alone tested based off of experiences with other games. How about we see what it plays like in Alpha 2 before we all freak out in the forums.
B ) If those resources are considered mats or required for siege war, castle war, then its a valuable resource. So those berries you mention - should soft flag you.
3) As I said on "B" and on numerous time in this thread - if Lumber is considered a valuable resource - then it should soft flag you, If it really isnt, only for 1-2 recipes and those recipes has no affect to the above statements. (Fishing Pole, Walking Stick) then it shouldnt be flaggable. But if Lumber is being created to make something else and that something else is needed for sieges or key components to crafting - then ABSOLUTELY YES, lumber should soft flag you.
Overall, I think 90% of items in-game should soft flag you.
Would it then be 'intended' that a lower level player could 'gather at a rare Node to prevent competition from doing this' and 'instantly drop-delete the rare item just to prevent the competition from having it if anyone else was around', and go around doing this as a way to slow down production in a mine, for example?
I'm asking if that is 'the correct outcome' in your scenario, just to make sure. Obviously people could do that now, the difference being that now you could kill them BEFORE they do that.
I am not following.
I want to stop/slow Node A from making a legendary sword/crafting bench with the Orichalcum from a mine.
I take my low level character with high Mining skill into the mine and hit all the veins of Orichalcum and destroy the result by dropping it (it does not go on the ground, it is just lost). I cannot be attacked because I am too low level and I am not carrying anything that soft flags me.
I have achieved my goal. Is this intended?
Prior before my suggestion - this can still happen correct?
your adventurer class level is 35, thus you are lvl 35.
your profession level is 35, thus you are level 35.
If your adventurer class is 30 and profession/gatherer level is 40, you are level 40 for pvp purposes?
As far as I understand it you cannot have a higher gathering level then you character level. I know for sure you cannot be a master gatherer at low level.
I have no information to indicate that this is true. The only quote I know says the exact opposite of this.
Now, maybe I misunderstood something about how much XP you get from gathering.
I would appreciate the quote/reference that makes you think this is true, when you have time to find it.
@novercalis - That's why I ask above, the quote I have is:
Progression within artisan classes does not relate to a player's progression in their adventuring class.[9]
There is also a direct quote from Steven:
While this doesn't say anything that directly counters the assertion from @GullibleSkeptic it is probably just another case of people interpreting things however they feel makes sense to them. Whether that's me or Gullible.
True but it also goes to the point of why are high level players going to want to kill low level players?
For low level mats that arent worth the corruption they would get for killing someone so low? Just to be an jerk? I don't really see this happening as the time wasted to grind off the corruption would stop all but the worst people from killing lowbies. Imagine killing that one person just to be mean then having to spend hours if not days grinding away the corruption all the while risking someone killing you and taking both 400% higher drops of materials and potentially your gear. How is that worth it?
My statement still holds - you are a level 40 crafter/gatherer and a level 10 adventurer.
Progression in of itself isnt touched - so that doesnt matter.
for the purpose of PVP and to prevent cheese tactics as you mentioned - your PVP level would be 40.
Would this change anything and for the better?
I don't have a personal opinion on it, but it sounds like the answer to my question was:
"No, that isn't intended."
Basically, the lowbie protection only applies if you are ALSO a low level artisan, in your intentions for the system.
Some people might care, but if your intention isn't to protect those people then it's their case to make, relative to your system suggestions.
I do use High Level as an example as hyperbole and for Extreme / worse case scenerio. Since most posts, players who are anti pvp will use this type of assertion.
But also, let's be real - If given the ability to gank lowbies at will, people will. The current issue is - we dont know how effective the corruption is - how ez to remove it, etc. Finding loopholes, using alts, using PvE environment. We have an idea but no numbers yet, so everyone is looking at doomsday scenarios. Also, ppl are jerks and ppl will attempt to try perma red PK status and make it work, some way shape or form.
Progression within artisan classes does not relate to a player's progression in their adventuring class.[9]
There is also a direct quote from Steven:
While this doesn't say anything that directly counters the assertion from @GullibleSkeptic it is probably just another case of people interpreting things however they feel makes sense to them. Whether that's me or Gullible.[/quote]
This is true but I thought I heard that in order to use different level tools you needed to be certain level however all the tools listed that where in Alpha 1 where level 1. I would hope they would change this to make it so you can't have a level 1 gatherer.
This is entirely true which brings up the point of why even make the thread when none of what you are talking about has been tested?
If in Alpha 1 high level players are killing low level players and the system isn't doing enough to negate that then tweek it. But until it's tested there is no point to making assumptions.
Also yo your soft flag system it wouldn't work in ashes. Mob drops have different values depending on where you sell them. Gatherables are always useful even uncommons are used in high end recipes. And with seasons what's common and worthless today in a month could be extremely valuable.
In terms of items - if it has a purposes, a craft purpose, a siege purpse.. anything of like that - regardless in or out of season - it's soft flaggable.
In the end - the only non soft flaggable items should be quest item, Grey Trash Items that is not used in anything, other than the purpose to sell to an NPC for some change.
Thus gives the PVE players who wants to just level in peace and slowly grow some funds - the ability to do so.
Grey trash items can be sold at farther nodes for more money. It's literally one of the main reasons for caravans. And while ur questing you will be killing mobs which will drop their mats you will always be flagged. Your system doesn't work because it only bases value off of one possible sale point for those mats. That takes away my ability to see you kill a ton of enemies that have mats I know are valuable at x node kill you and make a caravan to go there to sell them.
no no no no no.
Literally make Grey items have no purpose in the game. It has a static cost, regardless where in the world you're in. Only purpose is to vendor it. It can not be used to craft, or anything else. it has no real value other than the npc saying - I will buy that from you for 1s each. THAT IS IT.
White items - like lumber, berries, pelts, are important and used with caravan. those should be flaggable.
Grey Items can be like - A broken Hammer, can not be fixed, smelted, deconstructed or anything.
It can be, Pocket Lint - no purpose in any crafting recipe.. nothing in the game will ask you to use Lint - just absolute trash item that is vendor. That is it.
I still don't understand why this item type is necessary. It's just bloat. In a game that by its nature must already have some of the most robust and complex itemization out there. If it's just to give people money while they level, just give them the money outright, at that point.
If it isn't going to flag them, it can't be lost, it's entire purpose is to sell to NPC for Currency... just give them the currency for the kill and be done with it.
no no no no no.
Literally make Grey items have no purpose in the game. It has a static cost, regardless where in the world you're in. Only purpose is to vendor it. It can not be used to craft, or anything else. it has no real value other than the npc saying - I will buy that from you for 1s each. THAT IS IT.
White items - like lumber, berries, pelts, are important and used with caravan. those should be flaggable.
Grey Items can be like - A broken Hammer, can not be fixed, smelted, deconstructed or anything.
It can be, Pocket Lint - no purpose in any crafting recipe.. nothing in the game will ask you to use Lint - just absolute trash item that is vendor. That is it.
[/quote]
That's not how grey items work in this game. Mobs will not drop gold they will drop mats that can be sold to npc's and depending on where you sell them determines there value.
If you kill wolves in node A and sell the fur in A like everyone else it might start at 10s and go down to 1s. However if you take them and sell them 3 nodes away in node D they may still sell for 10s or even more. Then if you take them as far away from any wolves possible where they are extremely rare they may sell for 1g