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"PvX" for Ashes: some clarity

LordPaxLordPax Member
edited October 2022 in General Discussion
"PvX" for Ashes simply means one thing:

**Ashes of Creation is supposed to be a true, open world.**

Its not an *open world PvP* game, or an *open world PvE* game; just open world. The idea is that you play by yourself, or with others, and get to enjoy an online roleplaying game. That said, while it's similar to killing a shop keeper in Skyrim(and having the town mob after you), all actions have consequences. In fact AoC should be renamed to "Ashes of Consequences". The whole game is revolved around a 'blank map' given to a server full of players so that they can do whatever it is they want - consequences included.

I think it's just a system that's never been seen before in a *video game* format. The closest thing I can think of is table top rpgs like D&D. It's a game full of imagination and consequences. So, stop fighting, splitting hairs on yet-to-be-implemented systems, and get excited for what's to come. We won't truly know what to expect until Alpha2 finally releases. Until then, I hope that we can all get along, and make the most of what we're given!
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Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    I guess you never played L2.
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    I guess you never played L2.

    Different scale and scope. Not to say others don't exist, but not any that hit every mark like AoC will
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    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    VyrilVyril Member
    edited October 2022
    LordPax wrote: »
    I guess you never played L2.

    Different scale and scope. Not to say others don't exist, but not any that hit every mark like AoC will

    That's like saying no 2 snowflakes are the same, but they are both made of water.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Open world means not in an instance.
    PvX is hype that means... PvPers will need to do some PvE.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    Open world means not in an instance.
    PvX is hype that means... PvPers will need to do some PvE.
    It also means that PvErs would need to do some pvp too. It works both ways, otherwise it's not a pvx. If anything, Steven's claims that you might be able to play the game w/o partaking in pvp makes the game lean more towards PvE. Though, obviously, if the open seas have some kind of content that every player HAS to do - then yeah, definitely more pvp than pve.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2022
    That's assuming there will be PvErs (players who typically play on PvE-Only servers).
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    Pvpers can't progress unless they do a lot of pve content. Pve content is open to being pvped.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    That's assuming there will be PvErs (players who typically play on PvE-Only servers).

    there will be pvx players (:
    there will also be pve players who are part of big communities. they will have pvper, pvers and mixed
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    LordPax wrote: »
    I guess you never played L2.

    Different scale and scope. Not to say others don't exist, but not any that hit every mark like AoC will

    I agree with you generally, but everything that people are actually arguing about doesn't even exist yet due to the game being in alpha.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    That's assuming there will be PvErs (players who typically play on PvE-Only servers).

    I'm sure there will be - there always are. That said, this Friday's livestream is going to be discussing gathering/crafting. So, you know, we'll see how that pans out. I hope for the best
    jlyhubmxm6w1.png

    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    Dygz wrote: »
    That's assuming there will be PvErs (players who typically play on PvE-Only servers).

    There wont be pvers. There are only players and they join the game with the understanding that they can interact with each other both in good or bad faith. The freedom to choose is the most important aspect of the game.
    If you do not wish to participate in pvp, stonewall anyone that wants to pvp you. Tell them flat out "kill me or move on, I'm not attacking back." Force them to deal with the consequences and gain a reputation of never pvping if that's what you want to do. People will be less likely to attack you if they know you will just let them get corruption 100% of the time.
    Reputation is something that games rarely have anymore and this game is set to have that be an important part of the experience. Make the right impression and the right friends, see the gates to heaven and less harassment open. Be a dislikable cow and quickly find out how varied the ways players can disturb your experience truly are.
    This is not a bug nor a flaw. This is an attempt at an alternate world setting that you get to be a person in, not just a set of pixels that always wins every encounter and can walk around ignoring all other players.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    We have to give credit to established concepts.
    That reinforces AoC outlook and reason for wanting to bring back unrestricted open world. Just saying.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2022
    Sathrago wrote: »
    People will be less likely to attack you if they know you will just let them get corruption 100% of the time.
    Reputation is something that games rarely have anymore and this game is set to have that be an important part of the experience. Make the right impression and the right friends, see the gates to heaven and less harassment open. Be a dislikable cow and quickly find out how varied the ways players can disturb your experience truly are.
    This is not a bug nor a flaw. This is an attempt at an alternate world setting that you get to be a person in, not just a set of pixels that always wins every encounter and can walk around ignoring all other players.
    It's not a bug or a flaw, but...
    In the Open Seas, people will not gain Corruption for killing PvEers.
    And, there are no Non-Combatants in the Open Seas.
    Players are not free to be Non-Combatants in the Open Seas.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    People will be less likely to attack you if they know you will just let them get corruption 100% of the time.
    Reputation is something that games rarely have anymore and this game is set to have that be an important part of the experience. Make the right impression and the right friends, see the gates to heaven and less harassment open. Be a dislikable cow and quickly find out how varied the ways players can disturb your experience truly are.
    This is not a bug nor a flaw. This is an attempt at an alternate world setting that you get to be a person in, not just a set of pixels that always wins every encounter and can walk around ignoring all other players.
    It's not a bug or a flaw, but...
    In the Open Seas, people will not gain Corruption for killing PvEers.
    And, there are no Non-Combatants in the Open Seas.
    Players are not free to be Non-Combatants in the Open Seas.

    Pay a mercenary group to defend you then. Have a powerful guild. You will never not be at risk of being attacked. But you do have tools at your disposal to reduce the amount of pvp you have to deal with. Make deals with people that you will hand over payment to pass instead of fighting to the death.
    They have already decided that the open seas are a lawless, dangerous place. If you want to explore it as a non pvp player at least attempt to make it work instead of throwing your hands in the air and complaining that you cant access it. Because you can. You just need to find a way to make it work.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2022
    I'm not paying players to "protect" me from other players.
    If you enjoy that gameplay - that's great!
    Easy enough to make things work to my satisfaction by not playing a game that has permanent zones that auto-flag me for PvP.
    If Ashes has a permanent auto-flag zone - I fall into the "Ashes is not made for everyone" camp.
    And... that's OK.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    I'm not paying players to "protect" me from other players.
    If you enjoy that gameplay - that's great!
    Easy enough to make things work to my satisfaction by not playing a game that has permanent zones that auto-flag me for PvP.
    If Ashes has a permanent auto-flag zone - I fall into the "Ashes is not made for everyone" camp.
    And... that's OK.

    I'm glad you recognize this about yourself, but man... You comment on EVERY thread, and it's always the same negative-Nancy stuff.

    There will, unequivocally, be PvP everywhere in this game; though some places have more consequences than others.

    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    jlyhubmxm6w1.png

    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    Sathrago wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    That's assuming there will be PvErs (players who typically play on PvE-Only servers).

    There wont be pvers. There are only players and they join the game with the understanding that they can interact with each other both in good or bad faith. The freedom to choose is the most important aspect of the game.
    If you do not wish to participate in pvp, stonewall anyone that wants to pvp you. Tell them flat out "kill me or move on, I'm not attacking back." Force them to deal with the consequences and gain a reputation of never pvping if that's what you want to do. People will be less likely to attack you if they know you will just let them get corruption 100% of the time.
    Reputation is something that games rarely have anymore and this game is set to have that be an important part of the experience. Make the right impression and the right friends, see the gates to heaven and less harassment open. Be a dislikable cow and quickly find out how varied the ways players can disturb your experience truly are.
    This is not a bug nor a flaw. This is an attempt at an alternate world setting that you get to be a person in, not just a set of pixels that always wins every encounter and can walk around ignoring all other players.

    I love this take, especially the part about reputation. I think that's the part I hope for the most. Barring OG games, the last game I played with any type of server notoriety was ARK: Survival Evolved when it first came out. There were all the official servers, but no transfers. If you made an a** of yourself on a server, you were treated accordingly. I hope the same happens in AoC.

    I genuinely believe server transfers ruin games. It sucks when your friends start playing after you, or maybe they pick a different server, but you might have to bite the bullet and level a character on that server. It makes for people, who are trolls in the early weeks of the game, being excluded from later game content. Server notoriety allows Karma and social RPing to flourish
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    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    Dygz wrote: »
    I'm not paying players to "protect" me from other players.
    If you enjoy that gameplay - that's great!
    Easy enough to make things work to my satisfaction by not playing a game that has permanent zones that auto-flag me for PvP.
    If Ashes has a permanent auto-flag zone - I fall into the "Ashes is not made for everyone" camp.
    And... that's OK.

    But you have known from day one that it has an auto flag system... because you can attack anyone at anytime. Hell If I wanted to make your gameplay experience hell i wouldn't even need to have pvp on to do it let alone the current corruption penalties for attacking you. And no, harassment policies wouldn't stop someone wanting to do this to you. All they have to do is never talk to you. However, At the end of the day you're afraid of a boogie monster of your own creation.

    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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    BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member
    edited October 2022
    I believe that these are facts:
    • Ashes is a PvP game because you can attack anyone, anywhere.
    • Ashes is a PvE game because you have to kill mobs to level up, get better gear, etc.

    You can call it PvX or pepperoni, but regardless of what word you use, it'll (hopefully) always be both PvE and PvP. The only thing left to do is to impatiently wait for Alpha 2 to debate whether the game is fun and sustainable being a pepperoni, I mean, a PvX game.

    People who never want to PvP won't enjoy Ashes. People who never want to PvE won't enjoy Ashes. Hopefully everyone in between will be able to enjoy the game in their own way.

    Ashes won't be perfect, and even worse, "perfect" means different things to different people. Personally, I just hope Ashes makes me tick, that it feels good to play and has decent combat for my taste, because not being P2W and being able to PK annoying people is in itself almost good enough for me.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LordPax wrote: »
    I'm glad you recognize this about yourself, but man... You comment on EVERY thread, and it's always the same negative-Nancy stuff.

    There will, unequivocally, be PvP everywhere in this game; though some places have more consequences than others.

    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    Um. What's negative about me not playing?
    People who enjoy the auto-flag Open Seas will enjoy playing even if I don't play.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sathrago wrote: »
    But you have known from day one that it has an auto flag system... because you can attack anyone at anytime. Hell If I wanted to make your gameplay experience hell i wouldn't even need to have pvp on to do it let alone the current corruption penalties for attacking you. And no, harassment policies wouldn't stop someone wanting to do this to you. All they have to do is never talk to you. However, At the end of the day you're afraid of a boogie monster of your own creation.
    Permanent auto-flag Combatant zone is new - revealed in the August dev stream. Notice, Steven says it's a recent change.
    The only way to make my gameplay experience hell is to push me into PvP when I'm not in the mood for PvP.
    Which Corruption is intended to deter. That's just a matter of how well that works as a deterrent.
    If it doesn't work well enough - I also wouldn't play. That is true.
    Never talk to me is irrelevant. Why do you mention that?

    I'm not afraid of anything. I just don't like to be auto-flagged as a Combatant - especially in a permanent zone.
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    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    pepperoni, being a pepperoni
    0tp5205gu6zo.png
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2022
    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    I believe that these are facts:
    Ashes won't be perfect, and even worse, "perfect" means different things to different people. Personally, I just hope Ashes makes me tick, that it feels good to play and has decent combat for my taste, because not being P2W and being able to PK annoying people is in itself almost good enough for me.
    I mean - I like to PvP sometimes, but, with the Open Seas auto-flag, Ashes has too much PvP for me.
    I won't be playing.
    And, yeah, regardless of any labels - PvP or PvX or Popcornland - it is what it is.

    Ashes doesn't have to be perfect.
    And different people will have different likes and dislikes... as well as different dealbreakers.
    For instance... P2W is not a dealbreaker for me.
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    BaSkA13 wrote: »
    I believe that these are facts:
    • Ashes is a PvP game because you can attack anyone, anywhere.
    • Ashes is a PvE game because you have to kill mobs to level up, get better gear, etc.

    You can call it PvX or pepperoni, but regardless of what word you use, it'll (hopefully) always be both PvE and PvP. The only thing left to do is to impatiently wait for Alpha 2 to debate whether the game is fun and sustainable being a pepperoni, I mean, a PvX game.

    People who never want to PvP won't enjoy Ashes. People who never want to PvE won't enjoy Ashes. Hopefully everyone in between will be able to enjoy the game in their own way.

    Ashes won't be perfect, and even worse, "perfect" means different things to different people. Personally, I just hope Ashes makes me tick, that it feels good to play and has decent combat for my taste, because not being P2W and being able to PK annoying people is in itself almost good enough for me.

    Emphasis on the "impatient" waiting past.

    But, yeah, a lot of the discord/discussions/threads(especially past two months) have been wild. Lots of finger pointing and wild speculation. I wish, as a requirement to post, you had to read the wiki. That, or "false information" would be flagged, lol
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    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    Dygz wrote: »
    Open world means not in an instance.
    PvX is hype that means... PvPers will need to do some PvE.

    You are aware every PvP player does PvE in every game they play aswell right :P atleast MMO wise.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2022
    LordPax wrote: »
    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    Wait.

    Are you saying Dygz shouldn't post his opinions because there may be other people that read them and decide the game is not for them?
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    Noaani wrote: »
    LordPax wrote: »
    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    Wait.

    Are you saying Dygz shouldn't post his opinions because there may be other people that read them and decide the game is not for them?

    He's free to post. I'm saying that if the facts of the game, that have been there since the beginning, are items he regularly complains about and claims that he might not play because of it..... well, it just seems like a lot of fuss over nothing. I'm all for good, quality, discussion. But, when people who are pretty much decided as "not going to play" (not saying that's his final choice, but if it was)choose to continually bad mouth the game or spread misinformation, I'd rather it be taken somewhere else. Frankly, after the whole YT fiasco this week, I'm about over the misinformation.

    This game isn't out yet; it's life blood is perception. If people only hear the vocal minority stating negative comments, it'll ruin what should be an incredible game. I've known many people, myself included, that delayed enjoying something because of a random negative view I heard. I'm trying to suggest against that.
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    Founder and Guild Leader of -Providence-
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    LordPax wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    LordPax wrote: »
    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    Wait.

    Are you saying Dygz shouldn't post his opinions because there may be other people that read them and decide the game is not for them?

    He's free to post. I'm saying that if the facts of the game, that have been there since the beginning, are items he regularly complains about and claims that he might not play because of it..... well, it just seems like a lot of fuss over nothing.

    I would agree with you on that.

    The problem is, the thing he is complaining about is a recent change, not something that has be there since the beginning.

    He also isnt bad mouthing the game. Saying the game isnt for him is literally echoing Intrepids own comments when they say the game isnt for everyone.

    I also agree with you that the games "lifeblood" is its perception.

    With a game like Ashes thiugh, that means people need to know what the game is, and also what the game is not. Both are equally important.

    The only way I would have an issue with Dygz is if he attempted to say something in factual about the game. If he is saying "I will notmplay this game because of X", then fine - as long as his facts about the game are correct.
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    LordPax wrote: »
    But, when people who are pretty much decided as "not going to play" choose to continually bad mouth the game or spread misinformation, I'd rather it be taken somewhere else.
    Could you per chance point to his misinfo or bad mouthing?
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    Noaani wrote: »
    LordPax wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    LordPax wrote: »
    If this game isn't for you, that's ok, but it's depressing seeing you deter potential players who are lurkers and maybe don't know as much.
    Wait.

    Are you saying Dygz shouldn't post his opinions because there may be other people that read them and decide the game is not for them?

    He's free to post. I'm saying that if the facts of the game, that have been there since the beginning, are items he regularly complains about and claims that he might not play because of it..... well, it just seems like a lot of fuss over nothing.

    I would agree with you on that.

    The problem is, the thing he is complaining about is a recent change, not something that has be there since the beginning.

    He also isnt bad mouthing the game. Saying the game isnt for him is literally echoing Intrepids own comments when they say the game isnt for everyone.

    I also agree with you that the games "lifeblood" is its perception.

    With a game like Ashes thiugh, that means people need to know what the game is, and also what the game is not. Both are equally important.

    The only way I would have an issue with Dygz is if he attempted to say something in factual about the game. If he is saying "I will notmplay this game because of X", then fine - as long as his facts about the game are correct.

    Game hasn't changed, it is being developed.
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