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Full Loot PvP Areas.

Whilst perusing the world map and looking over the islands of Sujoma, Draakathbohr and Peligora, I couldn't help but think that AoC might benefit from having some full loot PvP areas. What we have seen of the corruption system is nice (I also think it might be a good idea to have some completely safe areas like the actual Node settlements) but I have a concern that there won't be enough "gear churn" for gathering and crafting to always be in significant demand across the different tiers of gear.

If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.

It would create demand at the auction houses for people wanting/needing to replace sets they lose.

Currently, you can only lose gatherables upon death from your personal inventory (as well as suffer a durability loss which can be repaired for a silver sink) You can lose stuff that is loaded onto a caravan and a ship but where/when will you ever need to craft/replace a piece of gear once you have one? Perhaps there could be a trash rate applied to gear that when knocked down so that there is a chance a piece of gear you are wearing or weapon you are using trashes and needs to be replaced.

If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?
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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LMAO
  • Wont work.

    Full loot games gear needs to be easy come easy go, from my understanding AoC wont function this way if a gear set takes say an hour of farming material and then u loose it within 5 minutes people wont go for example. Now if you silver drop based on gear value instead that could work but actual gear drop i dont beleive will work better in this regard. Im a heavy pvp player and tbh Full loot rarely works the ojnly one that it somewhat works with is albion online however that gear is very easy to replace where i dont think AoC will be without changing the game to much
  • WHIT3ROS3WHIT3ROS3 Member
    edited November 16
    I like PVP and I have a few thousand hours in Albion Online. One of my biggest issues with that game is its lackluster PVE experience. Regardless of how long it takes to craft gear or how much it is worth, I just do not see how there will be demand for a low leather set after the first couple of weeks on a server.

    From what we have seen of the gathering system there will be significant amounts of Wood, Ore, Fibre, and hide gathered of various different levels. We know that boats and Caravans can be destroyed so that is a great use of materials. There will also be the development of nodes and the demand for defenses and the construction of buildings. This is all great, I just don't see where the continued demand for the crafted gear is going to come from after a certain point.

    This is a topic as much about the economy as it is about PvP or PvE.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    No
  • "No" I'm guessing that is an answer to the question

    "Can you explain where the demand for crafting gear is going to come from?" No you can't.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    "Can you explain where the demand for crafting gear is going to come from?" No you can't.
    Amount of crafted gear will be smaller because of decay, which will spend more mats than just crafting. There's still a chance that Steven will say "fuck you" to all the complainers and will keep the "gear gets destroyed on overenchantment fail". Artisan professions are not linked with adventure levels, so artisans might stay lower lvled and will need fitting gear. OE will allow any future alts to be stronger than newbies. If OE fails do in fact destroy gear, people will keep crafting low tier gear over and over again until they get super OEd pieces. Intrepid might have materials that can only be acquired through gear deconstruction, and if you need those mats for higher crafts - you'll have to craft low tier stuff, deconstruct it and then use the mats to craft high tiers.

    Those are just a few that I could come up with right now. Dropping gear does not remove said gear from the circulation, it only shifts the owner. This is why I said "no".
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It is unlikely that Ashes will ever do anything like this, but rather than preach about shifts in perception, I'm just going to also go 'no'.

    This doesn't change the economic situation, it only makes it theoretically worse actually. It doesn't do Ashes' 'perception or reputation' any favors, it doesn't actually create any meaningful Risk vs Reward unless the players in these zones are very opposed to maintaining any real advantages, and it mangles parts of the Node System for no good reason.

    Steven's path is not likely to change too much at this point, I would think. People who want more PvP stuff ain't getting it, people who want less probably ain't getting it, and both sides would be best served figuring out how to make the PvP we DO get 'better' so we all 'want to play it'/'don't hate it as bad'.

    Sermon done.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • WHIT3ROS3WHIT3ROS3 Member
    edited November 16
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dropping gear does not remove said gear from the circulation, it only shifts the owner. This is why I said "no".

    Not if you include a sizeable trash rate % upon death. This means that you could lose up to 100% of the items.

    This isn't really about PvP or PvE, it's about how to maintain demand for materials and goods for gatherers and crafters.

  • Azherae wrote: »

    Steven's path is not likely to change too much at this point, I would think.

    Just to mention that I am talking about the islands that nobody knew were in the game until a few months ago, sitting in an auto-flagged ocean that nobody knew about. I think a lot about the game is still very much in the air.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    Steven's path is not likely to change too much at this point, I would think.

    Just to mention that I am talking about the islands that nobody knew were in the game until a few months ago, sitting in an auto-flagged ocean that nobody knew about. I think a lot about the game is still very much in the air.

    Well, I suppose that could be true. If Sujoma is 'Full Loot PvP zone' it will save me a lot of trouble, too.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • MMOAddictMMOAddict Member
    edited November 16
    full loot pvp is a thing of the past nobody wants that anymore
    having it in a game (even optional) will keep more people away then it attracts
    the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
  • Pvp players complain there isn’t enough Pvp and Pve players complain there isn’t enough Pve. Maybe it’s about right then? Pvx 🙂
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Not if you include a sizeable trash rate % upon death. This means that you could lose up to 100% of the items.

    This isn't really about PvP or PvE, it's about how to maintain demand for materials and goods for gatherers and crafters.
    What kind of reward would you give people for this? Just saying "go kill people and you might get some of their good gear instead of it just being trashed in front of you". And majority of people would probably just go there with shitty gear or in huge numbers in hopes of overwhelming their opponents.

    And if there's no reward on top of that - there's no real reason for people to go there. And if THERE IS some huge reward - you're pushing people to go there even more than the open seas, which supposedly have a high reward too. And open seas were already too big of a step towards the pure pvp mmo rather than an mmo that has controlled owpvp.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited November 16
    I liked full loot a lot

    Don't listen these carebears, @WHIT3ROS3, they nearly never say anything interesting or appealing

    What I would do if I was making a big game is letting the players decide how much loot they would lose, if any of the gladiators opt for 0% then it would be 0% for everybody and so on up to 100%

    I would let people decide the loot from 0% to 100%, just like a PvP gambling thing

    If we both fight each other and I pick 33% and you pick 100%, then it would be 33% for both of us, we are adults we should get to choose

    This is how adult PvPers would do, not just how the whinny uncreative everyday carebear who just wants to put all the responsability in the developers hands
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited November 16
    By the way, in AoC there's gear durability loss, it will cost gold and materials for repairing them

    That's kinda a neat idea
  • WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Whilst perusing the world map and looking over the islands of Sujoma, Draakathbohr and Peligora, I couldn't help but think that AoC might benefit from having some full loot PvP areas. What we have seen of the corruption system is nice (I also think it might be a good idea to have some completely safe areas like the actual Node settlements) but I have a concern that there won't be enough "gear churn" for gathering and crafting to always be in significant demand across the different tiers of gear.

    If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.

    It would create demand at the auction houses for people wanting/needing to replace sets they lose.

    Currently, you can only lose gatherables upon death from your personal inventory (as well as suffer a durability loss which can be repaired for a silver sink) You can lose stuff that is loaded onto a caravan and a ship but where/when will you ever need to craft/replace a piece of gear once you have one? Perhaps there could be a trash rate applied to gear that when knocked down so that there is a chance a piece of gear you are wearing or weapon you are using trashes and needs to be replaced.

    If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?

    if the problem is that people wont buy gear after acquiring their gear, then the solution isn't necessarily a full loot area. if you already have your gear, why would you go to that area since you don't really need the gear? and why would you equip your valuable gear? you would just equip crappy gear, and people who wanna go there will be buying crappy gear only (which needs to be easy to acquire). there has to be another incentive to go there, such as a unique item that cant be acquired anywhere else, otherwise, there is no reward, just risk.

    and there is probably a small group of players who will ever go to that area, so there wont really be a demand for gear. maybe 1% -10% of players will go there, so how do you propose we create a demand for gear for the other 90%-99% of players who will never go there?

    there are multiple solutions for the same problem. you could just make gear break with a low % when trying to enchant it, that way 100% of players will have a demand for gear. or you could just make enchants/augments for the gear with an expiration date, that way people will need to farm them as they play and use them and they are made by the same crafting professions. not having to reacquire gear all the time isn't a bad thing, but there are more solutions that affect 100% of the players if the concern is having to re-farm gear instead of just a small % of the population.

  • WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?

    Once you have your set, then you will never ever have to buy them again, this is why crafting sucks in so many games, after than then the price falls

    In the long run what happens is that buying the materials will cost more than buying the items
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Can you explain where the demand for crafting gear is going to come from?
    My take on full loot PvP is that if I kill you, you drop all of your gear and I pick it up and now own it.

    If this is correct, I fail to see how that creates any demand at all for gear. Sure, you are now looking to buy more gear, but guess what, I am looking to sell.

    Gear destruction is the only way to increase demand for gear. Simply having systems in a game that pass gear from one player to another dont.

    Now, if by full loot PvP you mean that if I kill you, all of your gear is destroyed and I dont get any of it, then sure, that generates a market.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Can you explain where the demand for crafting gear is going to come from?
    My take on full loot PvP is that if I kill you, you drop all of your gear and I pick it up and now own it.

    If this is correct, I fail to see how that creates any demand at all for gear. Sure, you are now looking to buy more gear, but guess what, I am looking to sell.

    It does create a little demand if you are a crafter and take the guy's loot, the guy will have to go buy another set or craft it himself

    As a PvP crafter you gotta hoard other people's loot, then there's a little demand... not the GREATEST KIND OF DEMAND TOUGH

    Optimal demand would be item destruction
  • Both. Just have a potential percentage trash rate upon death which incentivises people to fight each other but also generates a need for new gear to be crafted.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Lust69 wrote: »
    Pvp players complain there isn’t enough Pvp and Pve players complain there isn’t enough Pve. Maybe it’s about right then? Pvx 🙂
    I don't think the PvEer complaint is that Ashes does not have enough PvE.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Both. Just have a potential percentage trash rate upon death which incentivises people to fight each other but also generates a need for new gear to be crafted.

    How does it do that?

    I'm not really understanding the appeal of 'going to an area to risk getting your gear destroyed'.

    Is it just to ... weaken other people who are also willing to take the same risk? It doesn't really affect anyone who just doesn't bother.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Right… so you want me to feel okay about the team spending a significant amount of time producing content that will, inevitably, end in me losing a whole set of gear that took months worth of effort to acquire? I don’t think so. Getting an amazing piece (or more) of gear shouldn’t be as easy as getting lucky in a single PvP battle or catching an opportunity to attack someone after they barely survived another encounter. The risks are too high for this to entertain many players.

    Having as many free PvP activities as there are already with some item drop (the entire ocean and castle ruins, plus involvement in sieges and wars) is more than enough for most PvEr’s tastes. Invest any more time going deeper down this rabbit hole and you’re going to start alienating moderate PvPers as well.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Both. Just have a potential percentage trash rate upon death which incentivises people to fight each other but also generates a need for new gear to be crafted.
    What is the incentive for people to fight each other?
  • Huh? You would go into a full loot area with the prospect of killing others and taking their loot. (Like everywhere else in the game) but there would also be a percentage chance that their gear would drop or be destroyed. This is just the same system as already exists everywhere but rather than just the gatherables you are carrying dropping, everything you have on you drops.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Oh. Stealing gear from others is supposed to be the incentive to PK.
    Gotcha.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Huh? You would go into a full loot area with the prospect of killing others and taking their loot. (Like everywhere else in the game) but there would also be a percentage chance that their gear would drop or be destroyed. This is just the same system as already exists everywhere but rather than just the gatherables you are carrying dropping, everything you have on you drops.

    Right but why? What's good about this? If any one person could win consistently enough, the system would be worse rather than better.

    So what's the point of going to basically coinflip my own gear, and why would I go in good gear?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 16
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Whilst perusing the world map and looking over the islands of Sujoma, Draakathbohr and Peligora, I couldn't help but think that AoC might benefit from having some full loot PvP areas. What we have seen of the corruption system is nice (I also think it might be a good idea to have some completely safe areas like the actual Node settlements) but I have a concern that there won't be enough "gear churn" for gathering and crafting to always be in significant demand across the different tiers of gear.

    If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.

    It would create demand at the auction houses for people wanting/needing to replace sets they lose.

    Currently, you can only lose gatherables upon death from your personal inventory (as well as suffer a durability loss which can be repaired for a silver sink) You can lose stuff that is loaded onto a caravan and a ship but where/when will you ever need to craft/replace a piece of gear once you have one? Perhaps there could be a trash rate applied to gear that when knocked down so that there is a chance a piece of gear you are wearing or weapon you are using trashes and needs to be replaced.

    If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?

    Most people will not play full loot.
  • WHIT3ROS3WHIT3ROS3 Member
    edited November 16
    Azherae wrote: »
    Right but why? What's good about this? If any one person could win consistently enough, the system would be worse rather than better.

    What do you mean? Why not? It's a game. Why do anything? Why are people going to go out into international waters? To fight each other and steal their stuff. Of course, they will also be looking to explore and do PVE but they will also be PvPing. Just like they will in almost every other part of the game. You already drop stuff upon death. Which will generate demand for those things (resources and gatherables) why not also have an activity in the game which contributes to the burn rate of crafted gear?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Right but why? What's good about this? If any one person could win consistently enough, the system would be worse rather than better.

    What do you mean? Why not? It's a game. Why do anything? Why are people going to go out into international waters? To fight each other and steal their stuff. Of course, they will also be looking to explore and do PVE but they will also be PvPing. Just like they will in almost every other part of the game. You already drop stuff upon death. Which will generate demand for those things (resources and gatherable) why not also have an activity in the game which contributes to the burn rate of gear?

    Yeah ok sorry, sheesh.

    Just forget I said anything. If that sort of thing improves the game for you, so it is.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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