Wait, now that I think about it, WE SHOULD DO IT! All the literal psychos that want this kind of content will just go constantly die on some random island in the middle of nowhere, while everyone else can just enjoy they game normally.
intriguing idea, however lets not attract them to the game in the first place by not having an island like that
the beginning of wisdom is to know you know nothing
So you want to make a content path that only rewards the small handful of players like you who are good enough at PvP to sit at the top of the pile, and a content labyrinth for all the PvP edge-lord wannabes / gambling addicts to spin themselves through, basically just so you can have people to murder for fun in your awesome gear that you stole from someone else just because you managed to kill them one time?
The people coming to fight you will almost always have worse gear than you. If they didn’t, why would they be fighting for your gear? So you won’t care about the gear at that point, you’ll just be doing it to get relatively easy PvP kills in your special little area that doesn’t have almost anyone threatening you in good gear. You want to create a system that allows you the chance to get to the top and lord over anyone who’s simple-minded enough to think if they spend another week’s worth of resources doing an island run, then maybe, just maybe, they’ll hit the big time and catch you with your pants down.
This just seems like the kind of system that either needs to be the basis of the game or not in the game at all. It’s very extreme, and in my opinion, a waste of virtual real-estate, considering the entire map will be traversable with no instanced islands in between landmasses.
This has nothing to do with reward, this is just how normal PvP is, this is just normal
See You are still seeing through the carebear lens... rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer
I get the sad vibes just by reading in this order: rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer
Yuck! Nauseating
PvPers only see the challenge ahead of them, they gear up and go, they don't have these sad thoughs your brought to the table
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
gatherables are easier to acquire. gear will take months T_T that's what ur not getting.
How exactly will gear take "months" to acquire? If that is the case and crafters are responsible for making BIS gear where exactly is the demand for gear going to come from?
ask steven. after all, he said it, not me
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2022
Well, it's intended to be a few weeks to reach City stage and many weeks to reach Metro stage... and Crafting BiS gear after that will not be instantaneous, so...
If it does actually take many weeks to progress to Metro - that's basically a couple of months to BiS gear.
If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.
There are people who like to climb without a safety net or jump from a building to another or from a helicopter onto a mountain slope and do crazy things.
They are not many and their existence does not create a continuous demand for something.
While the full loot concept is easy to implement on a remote island, the game should also offer a reward for those who enter those areas, a reward which is not desired by the other players who do not like this kind of balance. For example while I would like to be tempted to enter that area, the exploration itself is not rewarding. I can watch a youtube video instead to see what is there, if I am curious enough. Achievements given if I find something there also is not something I want. High tier materials could be tempting but then, those drop in dungeons and raids.
It could be something which can be used only there, like special gear which can be used only in that place and lost only in that place. You grind for it there and you can also lose it there.
Eventually this can be turned into an arena with arena specific gear.
If you want to loot what players gathered on the rest of the map, in raids and dungeons, better camp them when they exit those dungeons and camp their caravans later.
But I appreciate the intention behind the suggestion. Maybe can be improved. Or was already? I didn't checked other posts.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.
Lies and slander
People will finally THINK and PREPRE and PLAN about how they would into such area, yes people would bring good gear because they will be so rich and have so many different sets that they will have good stuff to spare and have some adrenalin rush in there
Possibly people would come mostly using trash, but that is not a permanent thing
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.
Quick search:
MMORPG vs Survival Multiplayer RPG, whats the differences?
In an MMORPG you can't build structures anywhere and you aren't required to hunt for food and water. Thus sandbox survival games are in fact their own genre of online games. In MMORPGs, food and water are simply used to regain health or mana quicker, but are not required to maintain health.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
.
EvE Online and Albion Online have singular mega servers that are 20 to 30 x the population of a single proposed AoC server. They are full-loot MMORPGs. Over a quarter of a million unique accounts engaged in full loot activities in Albion in a single month of this year. Both of these games have incredibly successful in-game player-run economies. (They are not perfect but there is clearly things to be learned from both of these games)
I do not want to turn AoC into a full loot PvP game, I do think that it might be beneficial for the game to offer a small area in a huge 1200km world for people who do like to engage in full loot PvP to go. Seems like a win-win to me. It offers a space for people who are sweaty PvPers and also protects the majority of the game from constant requests for that type of system.
Seems like a majority of the resistance to this suggestion is "Nobody would go" which seems absurd to me. just on a purely immersion/exploration level. There is an island, that is so dangerous and crazy that if you get dropped you lose everything you have on you, but you might be able to find some special artifacts that allow you to craft an awesome PvP-focused set.
You could also have the other newly added island as an exclusively PvE island. Where players cannot attack each other at all. Filled with super intense mobs that would potentially allow you to find artifacts that could be used in the creation of cool PvE-focused gear.
This isn't really about PvP or PvE, it's about how to maintain demand for materials and goods for gatherers and crafters.
Resources sinks for repairs, resources sinks for node progression/maintenance, negative crafting outcomes for over-enhancing late game items, temporary legendary items that recirculate after a time, items that aren't maintained could become permanently destroyed after so many breaks due to durability hitting zero.
Gear shouldn't even be the focus of the problem you're concerned with. Resources are the main concern as far as inflation goes. The strongest items are being limited already, so don't worry too much about people having late game gear.
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
.
EvE Online and Albion Online have singular mega servers that are 20 to 30 x the population of a single proposed AoC server. They are full-loot MMORPGs.
Indeed they are, and the games each have access to loot to match.
If you are going to be a full loot game, or a game with gear destruction, this has to be taken in to account from day 1. Your entire game needs to be tuned for it. If this is done, then the whole game can be full loot and everything will be fine. Your game will be niche (measured in fractions of millions of players, rather than millions of players), but it will be fine.
If you have an area that is full loot in a game that otherwise isnt, but dont give players any other reason to go there, this will also be fine.
On the other hand, if you have a game where the design isnt based on full loot or on gear destruction, and you then add that in to an area and require players go there, things will not be fine.
Personally, I was wanting Ashes to have gear destruction. If it had this, an area of the game with full loot would be absolutely fine.
Whilst perusing the world map and looking over the islands of Sujoma, Draakathbohr and Peligora, I couldn't help but think that AoC might benefit from having some full loot PvP areas. What we have seen of the corruption system is nice (I also think it might be a good idea to have some completely safe areas like the actual Node settlements) but I have a concern that there won't be enough "gear churn" for gathering and crafting to always be in significant demand across the different tiers of gear.
If for example, you had one or more of those islands as a full loot zone, it could be completely avoided by people not interested in that type of gameplay, but for those who are interested in "Risk vs Reward" you would provide a space for people to gear up, ship out and then fight on a full loot island. It would create a continuous demand for gear of all different tiers as many may only want to equip lower-end cheaper gear to explore the island as if they die they won't lose too much.
It would create demand at the auction houses for people wanting/needing to replace sets they lose.
Currently, you can only lose gatherables upon death from your personal inventory (as well as suffer a durability loss which can be repaired for a silver sink) You can lose stuff that is loaded onto a caravan and a ship but where/when will you ever need to craft/replace a piece of gear once you have one? Perhaps there could be a trash rate applied to gear that when knocked down so that there is a chance a piece of gear you are wearing or weapon you are using trashes and needs to be replaced.
If a server is around 8000 people, where will the demand for sets come from after 8000 of a particular one has been crafted?
An called "Hell" with full PvP loots and no corruption would be fine )
I wonder if you know the differences between MMORPGS and survival games ? I suggest you look it up.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.
Lies and slander
People will finally THINK and PREPRE and PLAN about how they would into such area, yes people would bring good gear because they will be so rich and have so many different sets that they will have good stuff to spare and have some adrenalin rush in there
Possibly people would come mostly using trash, but that is not a permanent thing
this is not albion where u craft a million weapons and don't care if u lose em or not. it will take time, probs a year or more before u see someone with enough sets they wont care about losing them..and for what? yeah sure some people like the adrenaline. and there will be such billionaires in the server, very few but they will exist. everybody else will go into that area wearing diapers. no one in their right mind risk losing a set with 100% chance after putting months of work and money lol.
going red is a bit different since you wont drop ur stuff 100% of the time, so some people risk it if they think they will get something out of it. also most people who pk do it in worthless gear for the same reason, so don't expect people going into that area in their best gear.
You could also have the other newly added island as an exclusively PvE island. Where players cannot attack each other at all. Filled with super intense mobs that would potentially allow you to find artifacts that could be used in the creation of cool PvE-focused gear.
I think such PvE areas would be detrimental to the game.
If needed, security can be increased using guards, like those present in cities which attack the corrupted players and alert them already when the attack was initiated but even then, they should still have 20 second delay or more until they arrive to the conflict area, to give the attackers a chance to win and escape if they are well prepared.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
If it was on an island, that served no other purpose than that. Then i wouldn't care, It wouldn't affect my gameplay. But how many will really go there.
But Josh Strife has made a video as to why full pvp games doesn't work. But of course, one spot in the game changes it.
Im fine with giving you an arena, where full loot rules apply, but nothing so large that could be considered an area or zone.
From a business standpoint, too much PvP will alienate too many potential subscribers. Less money is bad. It is a difficult line to draw. So many excellent mmo's have been destroyed by too little or too much PvP.
As it stands now, we will have guilds of criminals roaming the countryside like locust, with far too few bounty hunters to even make a dent in the culture. The only successful crafters will have a guild protecting them while they gather. This is going to alienate the solo and casual players already, severely limiting potential subscriber income. The current rewards for criminals griefing gatherers will have to adjusted and fine tuned until the appropriate culture is established, if they have any hope of retaining solo and casual players.
A guild of criminals versus a few bounty hunters, as it currently stands, is a joke. Only time will tell if it gets better.
As it stands now, we will have guilds of criminals roaming the countryside like locust, with far too few bounty hunters to even make a dent in the culture.
Locusts - These insects are usually solitary, but under certain circumstances they become more abundant and change their behaviour and habits... Both the bands and the swarms move around, rapidly strip fields, and damage crops.
like solo gatherers who join together to destroy the land
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
No. Either you dont put any incentives other than taking other people's gear and no one does it, or you do put another incentive and you push people to do it, and people wont play.
Comments
intriguing idea, however lets not attract them to the game in the first place by not having an island like that
This has nothing to do with reward, this is just how normal PvP is, this is just normal
See You are still seeing through the carebear lens... rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer
I get the sad vibes just by reading in this order: rewards... accumulating... hoarding... meta gear... resources... getting richer
Yuck! Nauseating
PvPers only see the challenge ahead of them, they gear up and go, they don't have these sad thoughs your brought to the table
Dumb seeing things that way ahahahaah
How about treating the player as adults?
Let the players join arena divisions, 0% loot, 50% loot, 100% loot
Let the adults decide what they are in for
ask steven. after all, he said it, not me
If it does actually take many weeks to progress to Metro - that's basically a couple of months to BiS gear.
They are not many and their existence does not create a continuous demand for something.
While the full loot concept is easy to implement on a remote island, the game should also offer a reward for those who enter those areas, a reward which is not desired by the other players who do not like this kind of balance. For example while I would like to be tempted to enter that area, the exploration itself is not rewarding. I can watch a youtube video instead to see what is there, if I am curious enough. Achievements given if I find something there also is not something I want. High tier materials could be tempting but then, those drop in dungeons and raids.
It could be something which can be used only there, like special gear which can be used only in that place and lost only in that place. You grind for it there and you can also lose it there.
Eventually this can be turned into an arena with arena specific gear.
If you want to loot what players gathered on the rest of the map, in raids and dungeons, better camp them when they exit those dungeons and camp their caravans later.
But I appreciate the intention behind the suggestion. Maybe can be improved. Or was already? I didn't checked other posts.
First a full loot zone would just be avoided by anyone with decent gear not to lose hours of work. The main idea behind starting an MMORPG is that you'll have to work for your stuff, not just sneakly loot it off someone unlucky. And no your armor won't decay to be useless at some point, you can repair it.
Will there be enough demand on crafting if 8000 players have 8000 of the same item ? Well in what world would everyone want one specific item and be happy about it? There will always be something more you'll want, a ship, a second set, a new kind of weapon, a new house,... crafting can't die in a game like that, there is always going to be demand even if it can change, also gear isn't just 4 tiers where if everyone gets last tier the game is over. You can always improve your gear and your stats.
Lies and slander
People will finally THINK and PREPRE and PLAN about how they would into such area, yes people would bring good gear because they will be so rich and have so many different sets that they will have good stuff to spare and have some adrenalin rush in there
Possibly people would come mostly using trash, but that is not a permanent thing
MMORPG vs Survival Multiplayer RPG, whats the differences?
In an MMORPG you can't build structures anywhere and you aren't required to hunt for food and water. Thus sandbox survival games are in fact their own genre of online games. In MMORPGs, food and water are simply used to regain health or mana quicker, but are not required to maintain health.
EvE Online and Albion Online have singular mega servers that are 20 to 30 x the population of a single proposed AoC server. They are full-loot MMORPGs. Over a quarter of a million unique accounts engaged in full loot activities in Albion in a single month of this year. Both of these games have incredibly successful in-game player-run economies. (They are not perfect but there is clearly things to be learned from both of these games)
I do not want to turn AoC into a full loot PvP game, I do think that it might be beneficial for the game to offer a small area in a huge 1200km world for people who do like to engage in full loot PvP to go. Seems like a win-win to me. It offers a space for people who are sweaty PvPers and also protects the majority of the game from constant requests for that type of system.
Seems like a majority of the resistance to this suggestion is "Nobody would go" which seems absurd to me. just on a purely immersion/exploration level. There is an island, that is so dangerous and crazy that if you get dropped you lose everything you have on you, but you might be able to find some special artifacts that allow you to craft an awesome PvP-focused set.
You could also have the other newly added island as an exclusively PvE island. Where players cannot attack each other at all. Filled with super intense mobs that would potentially allow you to find artifacts that could be used in the creation of cool PvE-focused gear.
There's a guy saying truths carebears can't even grasp and guess what: there's carebears there, sometimes they cry a bit but they still play it
Resources sinks for repairs, resources sinks for node progression/maintenance, negative crafting outcomes for over-enhancing late game items, temporary legendary items that recirculate after a time, items that aren't maintained could become permanently destroyed after so many breaks due to durability hitting zero.
Gear shouldn't even be the focus of the problem you're concerned with. Resources are the main concern as far as inflation goes. The strongest items are being limited already, so don't worry too much about people having late game gear.
If you are going to be a full loot game, or a game with gear destruction, this has to be taken in to account from day 1. Your entire game needs to be tuned for it. If this is done, then the whole game can be full loot and everything will be fine. Your game will be niche (measured in fractions of millions of players, rather than millions of players), but it will be fine.
If you have an area that is full loot in a game that otherwise isnt, but dont give players any other reason to go there, this will also be fine.
On the other hand, if you have a game where the design isnt based on full loot or on gear destruction, and you then add that in to an area and require players go there, things will not be fine.
Personally, I was wanting Ashes to have gear destruction. If it had this, an area of the game with full loot would be absolutely fine.
An called "Hell" with full PvP loots and no corruption would be fine )
this is not albion where u craft a million weapons and don't care if u lose em or not. it will take time, probs a year or more before u see someone with enough sets they wont care about losing them..and for what? yeah sure some people like the adrenaline. and there will be such billionaires in the server, very few but they will exist. everybody else will go into that area wearing diapers. no one in their right mind risk losing a set with 100% chance after putting months of work and money lol.
going red is a bit different since you wont drop ur stuff 100% of the time, so some people risk it if they think they will get something out of it. also most people who pk do it in worthless gear for the same reason, so don't expect people going into that area in their best gear.
If needed, security can be increased using guards, like those present in cities which attack the corrupted players and alert them already when the attack was initiated but even then, they should still have 20 second delay or more until they arrive to the conflict area, to give the attackers a chance to win and escape if they are well prepared.
But Josh Strife has made a video as to why full pvp games doesn't work. But of course, one spot in the game changes it.
From a business standpoint, too much PvP will alienate too many potential subscribers. Less money is bad. It is a difficult line to draw. So many excellent mmo's have been destroyed by too little or too much PvP.
As it stands now, we will have guilds of criminals roaming the countryside like locust, with far too few bounty hunters to even make a dent in the culture. The only successful crafters will have a guild protecting them while they gather. This is going to alienate the solo and casual players already, severely limiting potential subscriber income. The current rewards for criminals griefing gatherers will have to adjusted and fine tuned until the appropriate culture is established, if they have any hope of retaining solo and casual players.
A guild of criminals versus a few bounty hunters, as it currently stands, is a joke. Only time will tell if it gets better.
Locusts - These insects are usually solitary, but under certain circumstances they become more abundant and change their behaviour and habits... Both the bands and the swarms move around, rapidly strip fields, and damage crops.
like solo gatherers who join together to destroy the land