I am really trying hard to understand why you oppose this idea of grinding professions in ''free time'', especially in a mmo that has pvp drop loot. It gives so much more to the existing world if materials and consumables/gear is expensive, because you would take care of every penny as in IRL if you had to.... This gives MMO only good vibes, I don't see why is grinding bad?
What would you do in MMO open world if you did not do professions? Outside of events that can be very repetitive and boring from my point of view, doing professions isn't because its like IRL work, plus theres this thrill of getting ganked.
Point where I said it's wrong grinding professions, I never said that
I said:
there is no item destruction and on top of it people are making infinite items
What do you think it's gonna happen if people make infinite items but no items are destroyed?
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...
That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?
Vanilla wow had an increasing population, that's all, once the population is stable then it gets messed up
What happened in wow is that crafting became pointless, Asmongold explains why and I already knew for years why
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Grinding 20-30 hours a week per person to get buffs is a trash system meant to gate keep people from doing content.
There is nothing wrong with overall group preparation for content in craft and making getting a few things. But if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.
Basically what you are saying you want to not play game during ''free'' time??? I assume that you would PVP in open world especially in MMO like AoC where there is drop loot on death. It makes things more fun. Why would you do professions that are useless for end game content, I mean what would you do if there is no prep before sieges or PvE bosses? It would feel very boring.
You are completely missing the point I'm getting across....
20-30 hours person
if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.
See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...
That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?
Vanilla wow had an increasing population, that's all, once the population is stable then it gets messed up
What happened in wow is that crafting became pointless, Asmongold explains why and I already knew for years why
Can you send me that video, because its important if he is talking about modern wow or vanilla wow....
I am ''new'' to MMOs, I only played Gloria Victis, gw2, little bit of eso and New World and WoW for 15 years, once I tried vanilla WoW for first time in 2019 (because I started playing WoW during tbc in private servers and I was noob - I did not do professions until later in MoP), when I tried vanilla WoW in 2019 I stopped playing modern WoW mainly because of economy, not because of gearing or any other stuff players complained.
I am in the anti consumable. I get the aspect of crafter/profession/alchemy wanting it.
But to me, consumable is a crotch for weak dungeon design. If ppl require consumbles to raid, to overcome an obstacle, then that is a bad design.
If people needs consumables to defeat raid bosses, then that is a bad design.
I want the bosses, dungeons to be challenging AF and not having consumables making things easier.
Every group, every approach to a fight should be dynamic and players needs to learn and understand the mechanics of classes, the str n weakness of the classes and bosses and figure it out how to overcome challenges w/o the usage of consumables.
contradiction time - since I made a post tlaking about not having them, I will concede since majority of the voices wanted it.
in terms of buffs. I get it, we love it. I do believe buffs should come from classes. Thus making classes important and allowing ALL classes be viable in raids. Instead of - let's take example of WoW
People didnt want to take a shadow priest, cause he was useless outside of raid and during raid, only 1 shadow priest spot is open, IF AT ALL, depending on how many warlocks signed up, a Spriest gave a huge buff dps to locks.
In due time, META will happen, and of the 64 classes, Like Archeage - there are gonna be Shit classes that are gonna get denied, OUTRIGHT DENIED. But if every class has a unique buff to them, in terms of building a 8 man or raid team, now we can see and open up the door to more classes.
So with that said, consumable buffs. Yes it is nice. But it needs to be severely limited, expensive AF, time consuming and something that is gated by gatherer/crafters. Let them do the annoying grind.
In my head this is how I'd like to see an mmo.
HP / Mana Pots are in the game, with a cooldown of 10 minutes. They should be used as a "BREAK GLASS INCASE OF EMERGENCY". They should be profitable for crafters.
FOOD / WATER Type 1 - Mandatory. Without Food, you do not get a passive HP5 regen. Same Goes for Water, passive MP5 regen. These food are auto consume in your inventory, with a 5-15 min auto cooldown consumption. Higher tier food/drink gets consumed less.
FOOD Type 2 - Special Food that is separated from HP5 passive, gives a "global Buff" of some sort. Goes away upon Death, Last for 30min to 2 hr. Expensive, beneficial for crafters.
Flask - Gives a "Global Buff" Only 1 can be active.
When I say "Global buff" there should many ways one can attain "Global Buff". Via Food, Flask, Event, Boss, Quest, etc.
BUT your only allowed to have 1 or 2 Global Buffs. Preferably 1 - Choices Matters.
Do you want to have that expensive food buff or that flask buff. Maybe each type is class dependent meta wise. Make each type of "global buff" unique that is beneficial for 64 classes. Spread the love, spread the economy and usage. Cause if you make a broad sweep type of buff, then most players will ignore all the other flasks/food/etc to 1 single global buff as the "meta buff". But if it's balanced around class specific DPS as example. Fire Buff for Fire Mages, Ice buff for Ice mages, Rejuv buff for shaman, Regen buff for Druids, Divine Buff for Clerics - while the last 3 does the same effect, it is tied to a class, instead of "healers".
{UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
I really dont understand why is it fun to farm PvE bosses daily on repetitive basis and its not fun to "play game within game" and do professions. I would understand if players wanted to just PvP because you are not playing versus computer, but even then having profession work should be fun, just so that they dont roam open world just searching for players...
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See, in vanilla wow economy did not collapse once, why? because devs set prices for items via vendors, well not every item but some mandatory like bags, so we had an idea of how much something would cost. Boring way of doing it, but limiting it is better then giving players full power and risking whole economy which happened in NW basically...
That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?
Why would you buy the crappy bags from a vendor when you can get the good ones from the auction house? I have never heard of the devs altering prices on the AH.
Centrally planned economy's usually collapse and cause massive waste , human suffering and corruption.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I am in the anti consumable. I get the aspect of crafter/profession/alchemy wanting it.
But to me, consumable is a crotch for weak dungeon design. If ppl require consumbles to raid, to overcome an obstacle, then that is a bad design.
If people needs consumables to defeat raid bosses, then that is a bad design.
I want the bosses, dungeons to be challenging AF and not having consumables making things easier.
I dont quite get this.
You dont want consumables to be required for content, but you also dont want consumables to not be required for the content, but to be another level over top that players have access to.
To me, consumables are just abilities that all classes have,they just happen to require "ammo" to use.
Based on that, I would consider it bad game design if there wasnt at least some content that required their use.
If they designed gear to lose durability until its destroyed at some point, then again even with this kind of design, consumables would be better gold sink then that design. If we had so many consumables as vanilla WoW had, it would mean pretty much before any raid or siege you would need 2 hours of farming and preparing. Which leads to more people doing professions/economy in open world, which means to more people playing game as it is intended, its MMORPG after all, it is like if you are playing game inside a game.
Tell me any MMORPG that does not aim for game design that revolves around Competitive content/ leveling / doing professions, where they fail? At professions, because most of consumables are cheap which leads to more of a theme-park approach to RPGs then traditional RPGs...
but limiting it is better then giving players full power
That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?
funny example
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I am right-wing oriented when it comes to designing MMORPGs haha.
I can't explain it better then that I want to keep tradition in this genre, because why would everyone complain if MMORPGs are on right path. Theme-park is not future for MMOs, only those that ''don't have time'' will rather play theme-park MMOs then true traditional RPG MMO.
Why would WoW lose peak of 12 mil active subs over the last 10 years when they started giving convenience, it is reality that majority of people do not want lobby MMO. Now WoW has around 2mil active subs and its counting both classic and retail, classic is about 50% of wow subs atm...
It had the greatest economy of all 4 games that I played, not the systems, systems from professions were as simple as they can be and you did not need to grind many hours to hit max skill, you could do it with ease while leveling and not having to catch up except if you were miner/herbalist/engineer... But even then, 1 hour of farming would do it before you go to the next leveling area.
It had the greatest economy of all 4 games that I played, not the systems, systems from professions were as simple as they can be and you did not need to grind many hours to hit max skill, you could do it with ease while leveling and not having to catch up except if you were miner/herbalist/engineer... But even then, 1 hour of farming would do it before you go to the next leveling area.
You just played four games with Average/below average rated economies.
You've made that very clear to everyone repeatedly.
If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. @Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?
If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. @Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?
Firstly, I doubt they care, but I don't think you should assume Arya is a 'she'. While we're on that topic I'm not a 'he' either (but I also don't care, so don't worry about it, I'm just informing you in case you're the type of person who pays attention to that).
Moving on.
Targeting someone else's example or one bad point in a game is not a valid way to argue this, clearly. Otherwise it would be fair for us to talk about 'WoW at all times'. You don't know if something went wrong in EVE's design for that period and then it got fixed. That happens to games all the time. Leave that out of this.
You have FOUR threads active. I have chosen one to respond to you in. It is the one where I ask only the short questions. You can continue to post in these others but I'll ignore those posts.
At this point, a mod could merge all of your topics and I doubt it would even be confusing.
Firstly, I doubt they care, but I don't think you should assume Arya is a 'she'. While we're on that topic I'm not a 'he' either (but I also don't care, so don't worry about it, I'm just informing you in case you're the type of person who pays attention to that).
Everyone on the internet is a "he" until proven otherwise (note; I am not asking for proof).
I'm all for merging these "WoW is just grrrrreeeeaaaat!" topics in to one.
If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?
Why would you assume a market that can not crash is better?
I mean, you are saying "this thing happened to EVE, that makes WoW better", but you are not explaining why you think that WoW not having this makes it better.
A good market should be able to skyrocket, but it should also be able to collapse. WoW can't do either of those things, because Blizzard won't let it. That doesn't make WoW the game with the better economy, that makes WoW the game with the tightest developer control.
I think I know the answer why vanilla WoW economy never collapsed.
When compared to modern wow, back in vanilla consumables were important and they gave big buffs to player power thus they were expensive.
Although crafted gear that was needed before going to raid collapsed because players did not need these gear after finishing phase 1 of vanilla. For example one piece would cost 200g at start of phase 1, but later in phase 2 it would drop to 100g, were used for alts.
Basically every material that was used for consumables were good even at phase 5. Consider that prices went up for those consumables once newer gold farms occured per phase with better gold per hour.
At start players would be happy if they managed to farm 30g per hour, but later in phases that would increase to 75g.
Skinning was only profession that was very bad later on. Crafting professions were decent because of new alts. Enchanting and alchemy/herbalism were one of the best. And ebgineering was the best for pvp good all through expansion.
I think I know the answer why vanilla WoW economy never collapsed.
When compared to modern wow, back in vanilla consumables were important and they gave big buffs to player power thus they were expensive.
Although crafted gear that was needed before going to raid collapsed because players did not need these gear after finishing phase 1 of vanilla. For example one piece would cost 200g at start of phase 1, but later in phase 2 it would drop to 100g, were used for alts.
Basically every material that was used for consumables were good even at phase 5. Consider that prices went up for those consumables once newer gold farms occured per phase with better gold per hour.
At start players would be happy if they managed to farm 30g per hour, but later in phases that would increase to 75g.
Skinning was only profession that was very bad later on. Crafting professions were decent because of new alts. Enchanting and alchemy/herbalism were one of the best. And ebgineering was the best for pvp good all through expansion.
No, the reason vanilla WoW's economy never collapsed is because it was small. Consumables were a big part of the economy - which just shows how small it was in comparison to a game like EVE where they are a much smaller part of the economy - despite being used even more than they are in WoW.
You still haven't explained why you equate an economic collapse with a bad economy in an MMORPG.
Simplicity is key to building good economy. Games are not real life and should not need complex economy like eve.
My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.
Again, you keep saying this, but give no reason behind it.
When a game has it's economy as a central aspect of the game, rather than just being a means for players to buy and sell with each other, complexity is key.
In WoW, the economy is literally just a way for people playing other aspects of the game to trade the results of what they do with others. In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.
My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me. You are comparing spending in real life with earning in a game.
In a game, you farm every day to earn gold to buy things. In life, you go to work every day so that you have money to buy things. Farming in a game is literally just like work in life.
Sure, you want the jacket you buy to last a long time, but it is an item, not a consumable. I have to assume you don't expect the onion (a consumable) you bought to last you as long as that jacket.
In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.
Those damn shallow one-gameplay players. Ewww.
I tried that style of gameplay, I promised myself that for some weeks I would only do that and I would do no PvP or PvE
I wanted to see if it was a real thing doing a living as a merchant in EVE, it is very real, it's quite amazing how strong EVE's economy is
I can confirm I could live like that, but it demands a lot of organization and knowing the game, a lot of traveling, being stealthy and many really dangerous travels
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Again, you keep saying this, but give no reason behind it.
When a game has it's economy as a central aspect of the game, rather than just being a means for players to buy and sell with each other, complexity is key.
In WoW, the economy is literally just a way for people playing other aspects of the game to trade the results of what they do with others. In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.
My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me. You are comparing spending in real life with earning in a game.
In a game, you farm every day to earn gold to buy things. In life, you go to work every day so that you have money to buy things. Farming in a game is literally just like work in life.
Sure, you want the jacket you buy to last a long time, but it is an item, not a consumable. I have to assume you don't expect the onion (a consumable) you bought to last you as long as that jacket.
This is why consumables are strong gold sink for everyone that did not master alchemy...
Simplicity in numbers can create good economy...because of simplicity. I might be wrong although I want to tell you that I believe if we had simple crafts without so many complex crafts within crafts it will be much mkre organized and would create simple way of deciding prices. I would like to see how AoC will do.
Atm I am playing gloria victis and there is much complex crafting then vanilla wow and I already see some prices do not make sense. But I like that game because I farm silvers per hour and not 20000gold.
Simplicity in numbers can create good economy...because of simplicity.
No, simplicity can create an environment where trade is easy.
Trade and the economy are not the same thing.
Your argument would probably be better stated if you said "I prefer games that try to implement ease of trade between players, but don't actually attempt to have any functioning economy" - because that is WoW (vanilla, classic, current, all of it).
The interesting thing is - a game can have an environment where trade is easy - as easy as it is in WoW - but where there is also an economy. EVE is not really an example of this, as trading in EVE is not designed to be frictionless.
If you want a good example of a game with a simple trade system, but also a good economy, you want Archeage.
If you want a good example of a game with a simple trade system, but also a good economy, you want Archeage.
Btw, @Noaani I don't remember if this was discussed in one of these 12 fucking same threads, but what was the situation with consumables in AA? And with their role in the bigger economy of the game.
I know that AoC's crafting and economy inspirations might be closer to EVE or SWG, but still. L2's economy was pretty much based on a consumable, so, in case Steven pushes for his own inspirations when discussing these designs, what the situation in AA was?
Comments
Point where I said it's wrong grinding professions, I never said that
I said:
there is no item destruction and on top of it people are making infinite items
What do you think it's gonna happen if people make infinite items but no items are destroyed?
Vanilla wow had an increasing population, that's all, once the population is stable then it gets messed up
What happened in wow is that crafting became pointless, Asmongold explains why and I already knew for years why
You are completely missing the point I'm getting across....
20-30 hours person
if you need to do certain daily quest to get a limited time buff, run around the world to pick up a bunch of other buffs, and do a bunch of other none sense that is just gatekeeping and not good content.
That kind of content is trash.
WoW economy is garbage
WoW crafting system is garbage
Can you send me that video, because its important if he is talking about modern wow or vanilla wow....
I am ''new'' to MMOs, I only played Gloria Victis, gw2, little bit of eso and New World and WoW for 15 years, once I tried vanilla WoW for first time in 2019 (because I started playing WoW during tbc in private servers and I was noob - I did not do professions until later in MoP), when I tried vanilla WoW in 2019 I stopped playing modern WoW mainly because of economy, not because of gearing or any other stuff players complained.
But to me, consumable is a crotch for weak dungeon design. If ppl require consumbles to raid, to overcome an obstacle, then that is a bad design.
If people needs consumables to defeat raid bosses, then that is a bad design.
I want the bosses, dungeons to be challenging AF and not having consumables making things easier.
Every group, every approach to a fight should be dynamic and players needs to learn and understand the mechanics of classes, the str n weakness of the classes and bosses and figure it out how to overcome challenges w/o the usage of consumables.
contradiction time - since I made a post tlaking about not having them, I will concede since majority of the voices wanted it.
in terms of buffs. I get it, we love it. I do believe buffs should come from classes. Thus making classes important and allowing ALL classes be viable in raids. Instead of - let's take example of WoW
People didnt want to take a shadow priest, cause he was useless outside of raid and during raid, only 1 shadow priest spot is open, IF AT ALL, depending on how many warlocks signed up, a Spriest gave a huge buff dps to locks.
In due time, META will happen, and of the 64 classes, Like Archeage - there are gonna be Shit classes that are gonna get denied, OUTRIGHT DENIED. But if every class has a unique buff to them, in terms of building a 8 man or raid team, now we can see and open up the door to more classes.
So with that said, consumable buffs. Yes it is nice. But it needs to be severely limited, expensive AF, time consuming and something that is gated by gatherer/crafters. Let them do the annoying grind.
In my head this is how I'd like to see an mmo.
HP / Mana Pots are in the game, with a cooldown of 10 minutes. They should be used as a "BREAK GLASS INCASE OF EMERGENCY". They should be profitable for crafters.
FOOD / WATER Type 1 - Mandatory. Without Food, you do not get a passive HP5 regen. Same Goes for Water, passive MP5 regen. These food are auto consume in your inventory, with a 5-15 min auto cooldown consumption. Higher tier food/drink gets consumed less.
FOOD Type 2 - Special Food that is separated from HP5 passive, gives a "global Buff" of some sort. Goes away upon Death, Last for 30min to 2 hr. Expensive, beneficial for crafters.
Flask - Gives a "Global Buff" Only 1 can be active.
When I say "Global buff" there should many ways one can attain "Global Buff". Via Food, Flask, Event, Boss, Quest, etc.
BUT your only allowed to have 1 or 2 Global Buffs. Preferably 1 - Choices Matters.
Do you want to have that expensive food buff or that flask buff. Maybe each type is class dependent meta wise. Make each type of "global buff" unique that is beneficial for 64 classes. Spread the love, spread the economy and usage. Cause if you make a broad sweep type of buff, then most players will ignore all the other flasks/food/etc to 1 single global buff as the "meta buff". But if it's balanced around class specific DPS as example. Fire Buff for Fire Mages, Ice buff for Ice mages, Rejuv buff for shaman, Regen buff for Druids, Divine Buff for Clerics - while the last 3 does the same effect, it is tied to a class, instead of "healers".
This is the reason for people not understanding what your saying.
Lack of perspective. Your comparing as so so game to two shity games.
Why would you buy the crappy bags from a vendor when you can get the good ones from the auction house? I have never heard of the devs altering prices on the AH.
Centrally planned economy's usually collapse and cause massive waste , human suffering and corruption.
I dont quite get this.
You dont want consumables to be required for content, but you also dont want consumables to not be required for the content, but to be another level over top that players have access to.
To me, consumables are just abilities that all classes have,they just happen to require "ammo" to use.
Based on that, I would consider it bad game design if there wasnt at least some content that required their use.
Tell me any MMORPG that does not aim for game design that revolves around Competitive content/ leveling / doing professions, where they fail? At professions, because most of consumables are cheap which leads to more of a theme-park approach to RPGs then traditional RPGs...
I can't explain it better then that I want to keep tradition in this genre, because why would everyone complain if MMORPGs are on right path. Theme-park is not future for MMOs, only those that ''don't have time'' will rather play theme-park MMOs then true traditional RPG MMO.
Why would WoW lose peak of 12 mil active subs over the last 10 years when they started giving convenience, it is reality that majority of people do not want lobby MMO. Now WoW has around 2mil active subs and its counting both classic and retail, classic is about 50% of wow subs atm...
You just played four games with Average/below average rated economies.
You've made that very clear to everyone repeatedly.
Firstly, I doubt they care, but I don't think you should assume Arya is a 'she'. While we're on that topic I'm not a 'he' either (but I also don't care, so don't worry about it, I'm just informing you in case you're the type of person who pays attention to that).
Moving on.
Targeting someone else's example or one bad point in a game is not a valid way to argue this, clearly. Otherwise it would be fair for us to talk about 'WoW at all times'. You don't know if something went wrong in EVE's design for that period and then it got fixed. That happens to games all the time. Leave that out of this.
You have FOUR threads active. I have chosen one to respond to you in. It is the one where I ask only the short questions. You can continue to post in these others but I'll ignore those posts.
At this point, a mod could merge all of your topics and I doubt it would even be confusing.
I'm all for merging these "WoW is just grrrrreeeeaaaat!" topics in to one.
I mean, you are saying "this thing happened to EVE, that makes WoW better", but you are not explaining why you think that WoW not having this makes it better.
A good market should be able to skyrocket, but it should also be able to collapse. WoW can't do either of those things, because Blizzard won't let it. That doesn't make WoW the game with the better economy, that makes WoW the game with the tightest developer control.
When compared to modern wow, back in vanilla consumables were important and they gave big buffs to player power thus they were expensive.
Although crafted gear that was needed before going to raid collapsed because players did not need these gear after finishing phase 1 of vanilla. For example one piece would cost 200g at start of phase 1, but later in phase 2 it would drop to 100g, were used for alts.
Basically every material that was used for consumables were good even at phase 5. Consider that prices went up for those consumables once newer gold farms occured per phase with better gold per hour.
At start players would be happy if they managed to farm 30g per hour, but later in phases that would increase to 75g.
Skinning was only profession that was very bad later on. Crafting professions were decent because of new alts. Enchanting and alchemy/herbalism were one of the best. And ebgineering was the best for pvp good all through expansion.
No, the reason vanilla WoW's economy never collapsed is because it was small. Consumables were a big part of the economy - which just shows how small it was in comparison to a game like EVE where they are a much smaller part of the economy - despite being used even more than they are in WoW.
You still haven't explained why you equate an economic collapse with a bad economy in an MMORPG.
My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.
When a game has it's economy as a central aspect of the game, rather than just being a means for players to buy and sell with each other, complexity is key.
In WoW, the economy is literally just a way for people playing other aspects of the game to trade the results of what they do with others. In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.
This statement doesn't make much sense to me. You are comparing spending in real life with earning in a game.
In a game, you farm every day to earn gold to buy things. In life, you go to work every day so that you have money to buy things. Farming in a game is literally just like work in life.
Sure, you want the jacket you buy to last a long time, but it is an item, not a consumable. I have to assume you don't expect the onion (a consumable) you bought to last you as long as that jacket.
I tried that style of gameplay, I promised myself that for some weeks I would only do that and I would do no PvP or PvE
I wanted to see if it was a real thing doing a living as a merchant in EVE, it is very real, it's quite amazing how strong EVE's economy is
I can confirm I could live like that, but it demands a lot of organization and knowing the game, a lot of traveling, being stealthy and many really dangerous travels
This is why consumables are strong gold sink for everyone that did not master alchemy...
Simplicity in numbers can create good economy...because of simplicity. I might be wrong although I want to tell you that I believe if we had simple crafts without so many complex crafts within crafts it will be much mkre organized and would create simple way of deciding prices. I would like to see how AoC will do.
Atm I am playing gloria victis and there is much complex crafting then vanilla wow and I already see some prices do not make sense. But I like that game because I farm silvers per hour and not 20000gold.
The hilarious thing is no one did this in 2006. Vanilla is not the same as classic.
Trade and the economy are not the same thing.
Your argument would probably be better stated if you said "I prefer games that try to implement ease of trade between players, but don't actually attempt to have any functioning economy" - because that is WoW (vanilla, classic, current, all of it).
The interesting thing is - a game can have an environment where trade is easy - as easy as it is in WoW - but where there is also an economy. EVE is not really an example of this, as trading in EVE is not designed to be frictionless.
If you want a good example of a game with a simple trade system, but also a good economy, you want Archeage.
I know that AoC's crafting and economy inspirations might be closer to EVE or SWG, but still. L2's economy was pretty much based on a consumable, so, in case Steven pushes for his own inspirations when discussing these designs, what the situation in AA was?