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Leveling the playing field in instanced PvP
Gui10
Member
Pardon if this subject has already been thoroughly investigated.
1: This is a post about instanced PvP such as Ladder Arenas, not Open World Pvp or sieges, caravans and things of that nature.
2: Why level the playing field?
So no one can complain of getting beat by gear, its all equal starting points and then only the Skill and Teamwork determines the winners. Sea of Thieves does a great job at this. There are literally no stats on any gear or weapons, only cosmetics, and everyone has access to same exact gear. (obviously this is not what I am suggesting here, and SoT is a very simplified example) but to me, this translate into a good pvp experience, where I know I wont just get beat by a higher level or higher gear.
3: How to level the playing field
Same level, same gear (per class), only things that change are specific perks on items and skill bars. This levels the playing field for Instanced PvP so that it doesnt require you to be in a top PvE guild to do well in PvP.
Several games have leveled their playing field for PvP. It then becomes all about skill and teamwork rather than who grinded the hardest for the best gear, which sometimes makes certain players unreachable, even though they are not the best at pvp.
I dont believe in rewarding pure grind over skill
Guild Wars 1 was a reat example of this. All gear and weapons in PvP were the same level. All that changes are the specific damages or resists you want to add on such as cold resist, bleed resist, reduced stun duration, enhanced elemental damage, cause bleed, etc etc.
There is still a grind progression required to unlock all the perks, but it levels out the playing field for everyone.
4: Added feature
I found it amazing and unique that once you reached max level in Gw1, you could automatically create a PvP only character already max level. It made it possible to try out all classes and be versatile in pvp without taking anything away from the actual mmo experience. In Ashes, these characters would have no effect on nodes of course or any other thing in the world of Verra, exept instanced pvp.
How do you see this?
1: This is a post about instanced PvP such as Ladder Arenas, not Open World Pvp or sieges, caravans and things of that nature.
2: Why level the playing field?
So no one can complain of getting beat by gear, its all equal starting points and then only the Skill and Teamwork determines the winners. Sea of Thieves does a great job at this. There are literally no stats on any gear or weapons, only cosmetics, and everyone has access to same exact gear. (obviously this is not what I am suggesting here, and SoT is a very simplified example) but to me, this translate into a good pvp experience, where I know I wont just get beat by a higher level or higher gear.
3: How to level the playing field
Same level, same gear (per class), only things that change are specific perks on items and skill bars. This levels the playing field for Instanced PvP so that it doesnt require you to be in a top PvE guild to do well in PvP.
Several games have leveled their playing field for PvP. It then becomes all about skill and teamwork rather than who grinded the hardest for the best gear, which sometimes makes certain players unreachable, even though they are not the best at pvp.
I dont believe in rewarding pure grind over skill
Guild Wars 1 was a reat example of this. All gear and weapons in PvP were the same level. All that changes are the specific damages or resists you want to add on such as cold resist, bleed resist, reduced stun duration, enhanced elemental damage, cause bleed, etc etc.
There is still a grind progression required to unlock all the perks, but it levels out the playing field for everyone.
4: Added feature
I found it amazing and unique that once you reached max level in Gw1, you could automatically create a PvP only character already max level. It made it possible to try out all classes and be versatile in pvp without taking anything away from the actual mmo experience. In Ashes, these characters would have no effect on nodes of course or any other thing in the world of Verra, exept instanced pvp.
How do you see this?
1
Comments
How did GW address this? Were all the classes just able to kill everyone else w/o much issue?
All classes had different armors levels for each. That wasnt mentionned in my OP but yeah. Backline had less armor and took more dmg. Frontline had more armor, If i recall correctly. But it was not a light/medium/heavy type deal, every class had their own specific armors, and it was not possible to wield any other classes armor, or even trade it I think.
There was a rock/paper/scissors idea but the builds varied so much that a high skill squishy could still beat a frontline. Any class could beat any other if the skill gap was high enough. At equal skill, a melee could 1v1 a mage but again there were some exceptions on builds. A mage could also beat a melee. Secondary class was usualy there to add either a self heal, self cleanse, gorup buff and things of that nature. Almost every class had abilities to disable others, either by crippling, slowing, blinding, etc. Monk mostly had heals though, and good enough monks could survive almost infinitely if they had the right build to counter that specific opponent's build.
It was all and all very balanced. PvP had a wide variety of comps. End game PvP was 8v8, and most groups would run 2 healers, 1 or 2 frontline, and 4-5 mid ranged dps/supports. With a lot of variety, once again. There were tons of viable options.
There were sometimes the cheesy 7 man + 1 healer spike comps but there would be ways to defeat them and people would find counters to them eventually, or they would get nerfed if too OP.
Like any game, I believe the balance is a continuous task. A game is never "perfectly" balanced forever. People find counters to the META and then these get countered and then these get countered etc etc
Can also do albion method for arena where there dimishing return when you over X Item power so generaly the weakest armor item power and the strongest item power is only like 10% power differenced instead of being doubled.
So gear progression does have some bonus but no where near as much as it would of been
In that case I would preferthe first method of taking average armor score for matchmaking! Not a bad idea. Have several different classes and obviously the class with best rewards is the highest armor class.
I would set the brackets as: 1-9, 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49, and 50. Ranked queues should start at 50. 50 needs to be on it's own because the power difference between a max level character and a 40 or even 49 using Ashes levels as an example, is huge in every MMO I've ever played and I doubt it will be different in AOC. Albion's system feels good but I think negating 95% of someones gear score past the cap is overkill. I'd be happy to see 90% or maybe even 85%.
There still needs to be some benefit to having better gear, even in instanced PvP, but it shouldn't be overpowering to the point where it's impossible to beat someone with a gear advantage. Respecting people's time on both sides of the equation.They need to find that balance and hopefully this is something that will be tested In Alpha 2.
In an mmo skill is only a portion of the fight. Put in the effort to get a chance to show your true skill, instead of asking for ease of access to PvP.
Do not let a false rightousness of skill confuse you as to what mmos are all about.
The only instance where perhaps some equality might come into play is the "instanced arena" where solo, no buffs and one on one with same class. Then it will come down, hopefully to build, gear and nuiances of sub-class attributes and guild and node skill influence.
All other pvp, be that open world, or instanced will be balanced by group play.. not individual.
If some work towards a rock, paper, sissors pvp capability between classes comes in, then all for it.
But for all pvp other than arena, happy to let the balance by the collective become more important than the individual balance
equalized stats just mean that classes that couldn't kill in ow pvp, can now kill you, or classes that could kill in ow pvp, can't do it now. yeah it's weird, I know. also, in those games, most classes can do more or less the same. aoc is different.
I agree that the gear grind shouldn't be the most definitive factor to win in PVP, but in a pvx game, it should have some weight. so all those people who spent all that time and effort filling their roles and acquiring gear cant enjoy it now to rank up? also, it removes the motivation for lots of people to never go out in the world and interact with others, making the game feels emptier. equalized arenas are mostly for those solo mmorpg.
you can lower the impact gear has on the outcome of the fight, instead of completely removing it. equalized arenas should only be considered if regular arenas don't work after something like 6-12 months if gear really makes a huge difference. but it requires a completely different set of rebalancing rules for that game mode to the point of playing a class won't feel the same as playing that class out in the open.
I am curious how Throne and Liberty will handle this.
Here are my answers to your points
1: I am not at all suggesting equalized stats for between all classes, I mean equalized stats per gears and weapons, not class. Not class because you can have different armors on the same class. But for example, all heavy gear would be the same gear score, medium and light same gear score. For example all heavy gear has armor value of 200, Medium 150 and Light 100. What would change is how you attribute your character stats and the perks you put on armor. Weapons would have same base stats as well. All the same gear score basically, but you can still switch it up as much as you want.
2- This idea is NOT for OWPVP, so anything that really affects the map, like node sieges, caravans, castles, I would even put GvG in there, as in GvG, all grinds should be recognized and valued. This is really only for instanced ladder arenas, 3v3, 5v5, etc. Maybe larger scale as well as long as it doesnt impact the map.
OR, to make it simpler, you get autofitted with "instanced PvP gear" when entering. You can chose all your weapons armor types and perks but they all come from the same place.
This is what arenas are for. This is the definition of an arena.
The point is not to apply it to all the game's PvP, but a very restricted part of the game's PvP, which is arenas. Tons of games in all genres do this. MMOs and others.
It makes hardcore grinders who think they deserve to win everything just because they spend more time on the game very mad, I know.
It will still happen through builds and player skill.
I understand. I also dont know the extend to which there will be diversity in each class.
I believe there will be enough diversity to go around the rps for very skilled players. That has always been the case to a degree. Very skilled players of any class will know exactly how to play vs other classes and they will stand a fighting chance.
I hope this will be the case at least. RPS in an MMO isnt the same as the actual rock paper scissors game IRL haha. There is always a grey area where creativity and skill can express themselves. This happens in every game.
The point is to value skill expression above all in arenas.
however you wanna put it, it's still an illusion that the playing field is equalized. it just means that you don't have to farm and the FOTM classes are different than the regular game modes. how does spamming the FOTM classes and steam rolling means you are more skilled than people playing other classes?xD
and weapons couldn't probably be equalized. for example, there are different types of bows. one gives you longer range and more damage, but attacks slower, and the other one gives u faster firing rate but shorter reach and less damage. cant have the same base stats here =x
just say you don't wanna grind for gear. you just wanna log in for an hour or 2, do some pvp and log off. that's fine :P
I honestly dont think you understand my point at all.
Leveling the playing field means starting people on the same base. It doesnt mean making everyone ultimately equal. You cannot equalize for skill and build creativity.
Also, there is open room for other way to level the playing field for arena pvp. Like other games do in their own way.
About the FOTM classes, this is another balancing issue onto itself. However, if there is an OP FOTM, every1 would have acces to it. It doesnt make you more skilled than a player from another class, since players can play any class.
About weapons, I have a feeling you didnt read my actual posts. What I am suggesting for example, is to have all short bows with same stats as short bows, long bows same as long bows, recurve the same as recurve, etc. So you can have 10 different types of bows and they all have their own base stats, upon which you can add your own perks.
Maybe I'll have to make a drawing...
Furthermore: I do want to be able to log into a game and take part in a variety of things. Maybe today I want to craft, maybe tomorow I want to raid, Maybe I want to pvp, maybe I want to a mix of all these things. I am not advocating to seperate them all completely from one another, I am suggesting we add degrees of seperation where its possible to actually specialize in something without having to be a master in everything else, and not be penalized for not being in a top tier guild apart from the other things that are specific to top tier guilds, obviously, like castles and such and such.
As it should be. You either value skill or you value gear, or both.
But you are talking about at an "equal skill level" and your argument for valuing gear is: it helps players get around RPS. How is that a good argument?
Don't get me wrong, this is why I enjoyed PvP in GW2 so much, everyone had the same level and access to the same tier gear. So the PvP was closer to true contest of skill than most other MMO where someone who has played more and has higher gear wins more...
But as stated the rock paper scissors class design of ashes would probably keep it from working the same way. Although I could point back to augments being designed to push one class towards another... Pushing rock to have some scissor flavor to protect him from his paper weakness some... But we don't really know the extent of that system yet so who knows.
I read it but wasn't very clear.
everybody also starts equal in the regular game, yet some people will eventually be ahead (due to playtime for example). if your concern is not having to be in a top guild to acquire gear to pvp, the game can be designed in such a way without having equalized arenas. players can still acquire gear.
you can also log in and do a variety of things as you want, without being in a top tier guild. guess what? most players also wont be in a top tier guild. you can pvp vs them and you will have the same gear
you also missed my point of classes doing more or less the same in games where this game mode exist. for example, pretty much every class is a dps class in lost ark or blade and soul, tilting a little bit into the tanky, support, or dps side even more.
imagine bards and summoners never dying because of heals and buffs. i mean, we already saw the cleric in alpha 1 where everybody was the same level, with the same gear, and the minor stats differences from class to class weren't big enough to matter.
nerf the heals? turn the class into a dps? or make it so it cant dps or heal? give everybody else heals? or buff everyone else dps so they can fight the cleric but now they will all 1-2 shot each other when not fighting clerics xD. what about weapons and class skills that synergize with others, or classes that need another one to do well?
it just doesn't work, unless you rebalance the classes so much for this game mode that they are basically a different class than what you would play in the normal game, or you are willing to bury some classes in the gutter.
I'm not completely against this idea, but not on launch. somewhere around 6-12 months after launch, if gear proves to be too impactful in PVP while being way too hard to acquire. all it does is remove the grind, but it doesn't really level the playing field
1- Ok, first, my bad for things that werent clear. We are having a discussion here and our ideas are evolving throoughout the discussion. So some of the point every1 has brought up modify some of my original ideas.
2- No1 is suggesting removing "getting ahead" lol.
3- Arena pvp usualy refers to pvp where you dont know your opponent, you dont chose who you go against, its matchmaking, so lets say two max level character but ones come come from an elite guild would win arenas way more easily. Maybe they have the same number of hours played, but they just have acces to more pve weapons. To me, this is not fair for arenas.
4- There is no 1v1s in arena pvp in Ashes, I believe that have said that. So there is no worry of having a healing or support char 1v1ing a dps. No need to change their builds either. People will have to find ways to make groups of 3s or 5s work with healers and support. It will probably meta tbh because sustainability has always been a key to winning.
5-Maybe my suggestion as a whole isnt clear seing on how far your perception of it is far from what Im thinking.
Lets say we stop claiming "it couldnt work" and just answer this: value gear or skill in ladder arenas.
Arenas will have 1 man, 3 man, 5 man and possibly 20 man Free-For-All (Deathmatch) group sizes.[4] I think it's good because it lets people get around the rps balancing. Augments might do that, but we don't know for sure rn. But I know for sure that gear can, because it's been done before.
To the complaints that it wouldn't work because of RPS balancing, my personal hope is that the RPS will be more of a guideline than a hard rule, but either way I think it would be nice to have one place where gear wont define the outcome so that new strategies and metas can be tested on an equal footing. Just because it might not create a perfect balance doesn't make it not worth doing, as the saying goes, dont let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Oh dam ok! Well I also do hope myself that build variety and skill can get around RPS. I dont see why gear should tho.