Key words here being "not part of (persistent)/open world."
Not part of the persistent open world, but still a part of the persistent open world game mode.
Once again, you have to literally travel through the open world to get to the arena. Thus, it is a part of that game mode.
If it were a different game mode, there would be a game mode selection in the game menu.
Okay and neither of us know who will be correct by your logic until we figure out whether the arenas can be accessed from the interface mentioned in the wiki or if you have to walk to it. Moot point.
No, we do know who is correct.
The interface discussed is for viewing the arena, not participating in it.
Also, that interface is likely to be an in game UI element anyway, so will still be a part of the persistent game world mode.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Please understand that my point was in no way meant to say 'this would result in a good eSports scene for Ashes'.
It was meant to indicate that given what Ashes is, if there were to be any situation in which this were the case, it would end up like this.
My other post above may provide more background on the thought process that led to mentioning it, though. If you find that one to be equally irrelevant, you can just ignore me.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Please understand that my point was in no way meant to say 'this would result in a good eSports scene for Ashes'.
It was meant to indicate that given what Ashes is, if there were to be any situation in which this were the case, it would end up like this.
My other post above may provide more background on the thought process that led to mentioning it, though. If you find that one to be equally irrelevant, you can just ignore me.
Yes, of course. Thank you for providing more background, it is not irrelevant and I appreciate it. I am not trying to fight anyone, I am just sharing my thoughts and experiences regarding the topic.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
But then it isn't an MMORPG anymore most of the time.
I am sure that Ashes could make a good 'fighting game', a good 'multiplayer team arena deathmatch' game, or a good 'tactical shooter arena' game, and any of those would be successful. They could even make what you are (indirectly) suggesting, a kit-based one separate from the rest of the game as a generality.
But those will probably not be considered MMORPGs by most people either. Since Intrepid's goal is to make an MMORPG, the question is if that MMORPG, with most if not all of its MMORPG elements INTACT, could make a good eSport.
According to your definitions, the answer is most likely no.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
But then it isn't an MMORPG anymore most of the time.
I am sure that Ashes could make a good 'fighting game', a good 'multiplayer team arena deathmatch' game, or a good 'tactical shooter arena' game, and any of those would be successful. They could even make what you are (indirectly) suggesting, a kit-based one separate from the rest of the game as a generality.
But those will probably not be considered MMORPGs by most people either. Since Intrepid's goal is to make an MMORPG, the question is if that MMORPG, with most if not all of its MMORPG elements INTACT, could make a good eSport.
According to your definitions, the answer is most likely no.
I agree with you. I also believe that just because it hasn't been successful in the past, doesn't mean it can't be successful in the future. I think we can all agree that Ashes has a lot of potential. We all want the game to do well. I, for one, will end up playing it and creating content for it regardless of whether it has esports or not. I think it would be a remarkable achievement if Ashes were able to foster and maintain an environment conducive to esports where all other MMOs (that I know of) have failed. If the RIOT mmo ends up having esports, I would bet money they use similar strategies to grow their scene because they've used these same strategies in their games like Valorant and League.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
I think the closest thing to that is WoW's world first runs and arena stuff? Though as a complete wow hater I have the most surface-level knowledge about that stuff. But WoW has also millions of players (or at least had), so it obviously attracted at least some amount of esports people.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
But then it isn't an MMORPG anymore most of the time.
I am sure that Ashes could make a good 'fighting game', a good 'multiplayer team arena deathmatch' game, or a good 'tactical shooter arena' game, and any of those would be successful. They could even make what you are (indirectly) suggesting, a kit-based one separate from the rest of the game as a generality.
But those will probably not be considered MMORPGs by most people either. Since Intrepid's goal is to make an MMORPG, the question is if that MMORPG, with most if not all of its MMORPG elements INTACT, could make a good eSport.
According to your definitions, the answer is most likely no.
I agree with you. I also believe that just because it hasn't been successful in the past, doesn't mean it can't be successful in the future. I think we can all agree that Ashes has a lot of potential. We all want the game to do well. I, for one, will end up playing it and creating content for it regardless of whether it has esports or not. I think it would be a remarkable achievement if Ashes were able to foster and maintain an environment conducive to esports where all other MMOs (that I know of) have failed. If the RIOT mmo ends up having esports, I would bet money they use similar strategies to grow their scene because they've used these same strategies in their games like Valorant and League.
I think that would be great.
I just definitely don't think that the concepts of leveling the playing field or equalizing gear in any of the ways mentioned in the OP would lead to that.
The game could, like GW, focus on people 'perfecting' their builds rather than 'gaining direct power', with all 'direct power' being leveraged through nodes, or Guild Perks (which presumably might disappear in Arena matches, but then it's the same thing if they choose perks that affect combat, for whatever reason).
But if it DID do that, there would be no need to equalize that much. It would just be like playing a very slow MOBA. Gear for your bracket, perfect your gear, compete, repeat.
And without the 'concern' that the best Warlock on the server' is 'nerfed' in PvP arena because their Legendary Staff of Resna's Blessing isn't 'allowed' even though it isn't actually explicitly 'superior' to other staves.
I would say that any such requests or appeals to Intrepid would be better focused on getting them to do the gear itemization in a way that prevents the whole 'you beat me through your Objectively Statistically Better Gear' problem outright.
We need some more Diagonal Progression (this is an in-joke, you can ignore it).
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
I think the closest thing to that is WoW's world first runs and arena stuff? Though as a complete wow hater I have the most surface-level knowledge about that stuff. But WoW has also millions of players (or at least had), so it obviously attracted at least some amount of esports people.
Guild Wars 2 also had esports organized by the world's largest esports company at one point. We had orgs sign teams and a few world championships with prize pools of up to $400,000 USD. But that only lasted a few years. I would have competed myself but I was not old enough to fly to the tournaments alone at the time. And by the time I was old enough, Guild Wars 2 got dropped by ESL because they viewership started to decline in part due to balancing issues and a slow balancing rate causing a boring meta to watch.
As far as I know, I can't think of any MMOs that were able to cultivate and currently maintain a successful esports scene. Is WoW esports doing well? If anyone can provide clarity or any other examples, that would be great.
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
But then it isn't an MMORPG anymore most of the time.
I am sure that Ashes could make a good 'fighting game', a good 'multiplayer team arena deathmatch' game, or a good 'tactical shooter arena' game, and any of those would be successful. They could even make what you are (indirectly) suggesting, a kit-based one separate from the rest of the game as a generality.
But those will probably not be considered MMORPGs by most people either. Since Intrepid's goal is to make an MMORPG, the question is if that MMORPG, with most if not all of its MMORPG elements INTACT, could make a good eSport.
According to your definitions, the answer is most likely no.
I agree with you. I also believe that just because it hasn't been successful in the past, doesn't mean it can't be successful in the future. I think we can all agree that Ashes has a lot of potential. We all want the game to do well. I, for one, will end up playing it and creating content for it regardless of whether it has esports or not. I think it would be a remarkable achievement if Ashes were able to foster and maintain an environment conducive to esports where all other MMOs (that I know of) have failed. If the RIOT mmo ends up having esports, I would bet money they use similar strategies to grow their scene because they've used these same strategies in their games like Valorant and League.
I think that would be great.
I just definitely don't think that the concepts of leveling the playing field or equalizing gear in any of the ways mentioned in the OP would lead to that.
The game could, like GW, focus on people 'perfecting' their builds rather than 'gaining direct power', with all 'direct power' being leveraged through nodes, or Guild Perks (which presumably might disappear in Arena matches, but then it's the same thing if they choose perks that affect combat, for whatever reason).
But if it DID do that, there would be no need to equalize that much. It would just be like playing a very slow MOBA. Gear for your bracket, perfect your gear, compete, repeat.
And without the 'concern' that the best Warlock on the server' is 'nerfed' in PvP arena because their Legendary Staff of Resna's Blessing isn't 'allowed' even though it isn't actually explicitly 'superior' to other staves.
I would say that any such requests or appeals to Intrepid would be better focused on getting them to do the gear itemization in a way that prevents the whole 'you beat me through your Objectively Statistically Better Gear' problem outright.
We need some more Diagonal Progression (this is an in-joke, you can ignore it).
Yeah I agree. I feel that Ashes is already going that route seeing as how progression transitions from vertical to horizontal upon reaching max level. But we'll see what happens.
You claim to be an athlete of some description. Do you feel bad when you beat someone knowing full well you have chosen to spend more time training than they have? Because that is the same thing. In an MMO, players have the choice to go out and get that stat advantage. Anyone that doesn't have it made the choice to not go out and get it.
The advantage comes from training, not the equipment athletes wear. An athlete would not feel good competing against a guy with sandals. At least give him proper running shoes, then let's compete, and the one who trained the hardest will win. The guy who never had runnings came from an extremely poor town, it was out of his own control to get good equipment, but he trained hard every day and he is actually better than the pro with 300$ nike shoes, but no one will ever know, because the race values gear instead of skill.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
I think the closest thing to that is WoW's world first runs and arena stuff? Though as a complete wow hater I have the most surface-level knowledge about that stuff. But WoW has also millions of players (or at least had), so it obviously attracted at least some amount of esports people.
Guild Wars 2 also had esports organized by the world's largest esports company at one point. We had orgs sign teams and a few world championships with prize pools of up to $400,000 USD. But that only lasted a few years. I would have competed myself but I was not old enough to fly to the tournaments alone at the time. And by the time I was old enough, Guild Wars 2 got dropped by ESL because they viewership started to decline in part due to balancing issues and a slow balancing rate causing a boring meta to watch.
As far as I know, I can't think of any MMOs that were able to cultivate and currently maintain a successful esports scene. Is WoW esports doing well? If anyone can provide clarity or any other examples, that would be great.
Yeah, it was proven with GW2 that esports and MMO's don't go well together.
The changes essentially demanded by the league in order to stay in the game would have made the game itself less enjoyable - because MMO's simply are not about ultra balanced PvP.
What I don't get is why anyone would think a game like Ashes - where the developers have outright said the game is about the open world and interacting with the systems in said open world - would want to promote an arena based esport. There is literally no way for Intrepid to gain if Ashes arena did become an esport - either people would see it, come to the game and be upset by the fact that the game is an MMO not a lobby based arena, or the game would have to shift to being a lobby based arena to satisfy the people coming due to it being an esport.
It just doesn't make sense for Intrepid to want Ashes to be an esport, which is why they don't want Ashes to be an esport.
I am siding with @NiKr on this one. Without the ability to switch things up via gear, you have less flexibility for playstyle and making builds. I get the OP trying to focus on player skill for arenas, but skill can also come from creating builds, and acquiring gear. I am by no means a huge PVE player, but if I manage to snag an amazing piece of gear and its gives me zero boost in any competitive PvP, thats lame as hell.
You can still switch things up via gear absolutely! The base armor stars are locked in but other than that, you have all the freedom to pick perks and addons such as frost resist, bleed sesist, % critical chance, % chance to cause bleed, % chance to proc heal, etc etc.
Also, separating gear stats acquired through PVE for competitive PVP is directly contradicting the PvX mentality. To become great at PvP, you should need to acquire the gear through PvE
I agree 100% with the PvX side of things for all world PvP (node sieges, owpvp, caravan sieges, castles, etc) but I think adding this feature for arenas only would be great.
If I put in the time to get amazing gear, I want to be able to use it in every aspect of the game, especially the competitive instanced PVP. And switching gear should require you to have that gear. Not having an entire wardrobe to pick from at will. Otherwise you can basically ignore the rest of the game to only PvP. Vote is no.
I always found it interesting when people enjoy winning knowing they have a stat advantage over their opponents. If I beat someone like that, it feels cheap. I would rather win knowing I played better than due to the fact that I farmed for longer than they did/got luckier. But to each their own.
Also, that's not to say that arenas can't give you the best gear possible. It just allows everyone fight on an even playing field by giving everyone the best gear to choose from.
equalized arenas give you a stat advantage :P, its hard to see, but it exists. some classes need to reach a certain amount of a stat to be able to function. equalized arenas might not let them reach that stat with the available gear (or stat increasing option), so by picking a different class that doesn't need to reach a certain number in a stat (let's say casting speed) you have a stat advantage over them. don't you feel bad beating them like that? classes that couldn't kill you, now can.
what about people chasing the FOTM and winning? don't you feel bad picking a strong class and winning? why don't you play the most underpowered and trashy class of all and beat everybody? you would feel better that way wouldn't you?
and saying that they are available to everybody at any time isn't a good argument, because not everybody enjoys playing a certain class or role, and there are players who want to be the best at 1 class, no matter if it's FOTM or not. I mean, you never see 100% of the players playing the FOTM class. equalized arenas with instant levels will allow people to switch to FOTM classes faster than they switch underwear. how is winning like that much better? how is that not having a stat advantage? why do you play the class that can do 1k dps and not the one that does 500 or 800 dps? isn't that a stat advantage? what about healing? why have 1 health bar when you can have 10. isn't that a stat advantage? not every class can heal so they are fked
at least, people cant swap characters so fast in normal arenas, because they have to level them up and gear them, and ashes isn't p2w, so gear won't really have a huge impact.
and don't get me started on queue manipulation.
also, separating pvp and pve isn't the direction of ashes. equalized arenas should be the last option if for whatever reason they can't make regular arenas work.
just say you wanna skip the farm and do pvp man, there's nothing wrong with that. but don't say it's better.
regarding the training argument, mmorpg =/= real life (but even then, you won't have Michael Jordan play vs a rookie in a tournament, would you?). instant max level arenas allow the player who plays 10 hours a day to learn every class by playing them, faster than the guy who plays 2 hours a day, while also giving him the ability to switch to FOTM much quicker and stomp, and that's an advantage and it's fine, use everything you have. if you spend 10 hours a day training, you should get better rewards than the guy who spends 2 hours a day training.
the reason I bring that up is because of the time-reward argument, which still applies to eq arenas. the argument in favor of eq arenas with instant levels is to remove the time it takes to grind gear and the reward for spending such time. but in reality, it just replaces one grind with another. if you wanna be the best smash bros or mortal combat player, at some point you will learn all the characters, even if you only play 1 or 2 (and switch cuz of meta every few months), so that you can counter them. hell, even in LoL you wanna learn other characters to avoid their wombo combo. so the guy grinding arena for more hours will more likely get better rewards, the same way the guy grinding the regular game for more hours, will get better rewards and removing that is a slap to the face to the guys who spent all that time and effort out there. in a game that separates pvp and pve, that's fine, but ashes inst that game. eq arenas would be ok if every class in aoc was a dps class, like in gw, bns and la
I am siding with @NiKr on this one. Without the ability to switch things up via gear, you have less flexibility for playstyle and making builds. I get the OP trying to focus on player skill for arenas, but skill can also come from creating builds, and acquiring gear. I am by no means a huge PVE player, but if I manage to snag an amazing piece of gear and its gives me zero boost in any competitive PvP, thats lame as hell.
You can still switch things up via gear absolutely! The base armor stars are locked in but other than that, you have all the freedom to pick perks and addons such as frost resist, bleed sesist, % critical chance, % chance to cause bleed, % chance to proc heal, etc etc.
Also, separating gear stats acquired through PVE for competitive PVP is directly contradicting the PvX mentality. To become great at PvP, you should need to acquire the gear through PvE
I agree 100% with the PvX side of things for all world PvP (node sieges, owpvp, caravan sieges, castles, etc) but I think adding this feature for arenas only would be great.
If I put in the time to get amazing gear, I want to be able to use it in every aspect of the game, especially the competitive instanced PVP. And switching gear should require you to have that gear. Not having an entire wardrobe to pick from at will. Otherwise you can basically ignore the rest of the game to only PvP. Vote is no.
I always found it interesting when people enjoy winning knowing they have a stat advantage over their opponents. If I beat someone like that, it feels cheap. I would rather win knowing I played better than due to the fact that I farmed for longer than they did/got luckier. But to each their own.
I enjoy winning with gear that I have earned, thus earning that advantage if there even is one. I have even more fun if I outplay someone who has slightly or even far better gear than I do, but you cant do that if everyone is a cookie-cutter stat block. Wanting everyone to have the same crap, to me, is just lazy and doesnt want to put the work in on the PVE side of things, and I am even saying that as a PvP sociopath.
Yeah that's a philosophical difference. I don't want to be able to earn advantages, it takes away the satisfaction of knowing I fought better than they did because I wouldn't know if I won because of gear or skill. I'm not saying there's no skill in acquiring gear or putting together good builds, but that's completely different than fighting skill and actually being good at PvP. I liken it to having a numbers advantage over your opponent(s). For example, if an arena match was 6v5, the team with 6 will have an advantage at all times. If I was on the team of 6 and won, that would feel lame. If I lost, that also feels lame. It's a lose-lose for me. At that point, I don't know why I'd even play. But that's why I prefer games with equalized gear systems in PvP.
I look at it like training for a fight irl. If I put more work in and train harder than the other person and I make myself mentally stronger than my opponent, I am working to give myself an advantage over my opponent. Or should I limit myself to the exact same amount of training as them at the same limitations of strength and endurance instead of pushing myself beyond my own capabilities?
Stats on gear in MMOs reflect the strength your character would attain from acquiring that gear. So if you fight someone too strong for you due to them putting more work in? Put more work into it yourself.
You're overlooking the fact that there are weight classes in fighting.
I've been an athlete all my life. There's a reason they don't match a 220 lb guy against the guy that weights 130. People wouldn't enjoy watching such a one-sided fight either. The weight difference in fighting is equivalent to gear advantages in games.
Well of course you have weight classes. But if you take a 195lbs office worker who has never been in a fight in his life against a Lightheavyweight Champion at the same weight, they will get absolutely destroyed.
See that analogy described the skill difference. Gear difference would be giving the office worker metal gauntlets while the champion has rubber gloves. Now it's less about who is more skilled, because someone just had better gear...
Where as if they both get access to the same line up of gloves it levels the paying field and the skill dominates more.
In an RPG its not just the players skill, your characters stats factors into its ability. This is reflected in gear acquired, and level achieved. Itd be one thing if none of the items gave stats, and only provided armor and damage modifiers. But gear stats in RPGs are meant to reflect the strength and power gained through getting that item. And even then, nobody in this instance would stop the champ from putting on some gauntlets they pick up as well. Both players have access to the gear, its just a matter of them picking it up.
I already said I'm not sure OPs idea belongs in ashes...
That being said I feel like for something like a instanced leader board the bragging rights would mean more if it was skill-based as opposed to someone who's had more free time...
If it's going to be instanced either way they could make two different leagues, one where it's bring your own gear and one where gear is issued of an equalizing tier set. Have two different leader boards.
to me thats no different than PVE and PVP servers honestly. No need to separate the player base
Nah
I see it as two different competitions.
Kind of like a track meet with different events. We have 1v1, 3v3, 8v8, standardized gear leagues, objective based arenas instead of just kill team, etc.
I am siding with @NiKr on this one. Without the ability to switch things up via gear, you have less flexibility for playstyle and making builds. I get the OP trying to focus on player skill for arenas, but skill can also come from creating builds, and acquiring gear. I am by no means a huge PVE player, but if I manage to snag an amazing piece of gear and its gives me zero boost in any competitive PvP, thats lame as hell.
You can still switch things up via gear absolutely! The base armor stars are locked in but other than that, you have all the freedom to pick perks and addons such as frost resist, bleed sesist, % critical chance, % chance to cause bleed, % chance to proc heal, etc etc.
Also, separating gear stats acquired through PVE for competitive PVP is directly contradicting the PvX mentality. To become great at PvP, you should need to acquire the gear through PvE
I agree 100% with the PvX side of things for all world PvP (node sieges, owpvp, caravan sieges, castles, etc) but I think adding this feature for arenas only would be great.
If I put in the time to get amazing gear, I want to be able to use it in every aspect of the game, especially the competitive instanced PVP. And switching gear should require you to have that gear. Not having an entire wardrobe to pick from at will. Otherwise you can basically ignore the rest of the game to only PvP. Vote is no.
I always found it interesting when people enjoy winning knowing they have a stat advantage over their opponents. If I beat someone like that, it feels cheap. I would rather win knowing I played better than due to the fact that I farmed for longer than they did/got luckier. But to each their own.
I enjoy winning with gear that I have earned, thus earning that advantage if there even is one. I have even more fun if I outplay someone who has slightly or even far better gear than I do, but you cant do that if everyone is a cookie-cutter stat block. Wanting everyone to have the same crap, to me, is just lazy and doesnt want to put the work in on the PVE side of things, and I am even saying that as a PvP sociopath.
Yeah that's a philosophical difference. I don't want to be able to earn advantages, it takes away the satisfaction of knowing I fought better than they did because I wouldn't know if I won because of gear or skill. I'm not saying there's no skill in acquiring gear or putting together good builds, but that's completely different than fighting skill and actually being good at PvP. I liken it to having a numbers advantage over your opponent(s). For example, if an arena match was 6v5, the team with 6 will have an advantage at all times. If I was on the team of 6 and won, that would feel lame. If I lost, that also feels lame. It's a lose-lose for me. At that point, I don't know why I'd even play. But that's why I prefer games with equalized gear systems in PvP.
I look at it like training for a fight irl. If I put more work in and train harder than the other person and I make myself mentally stronger than my opponent, I am working to give myself an advantage over my opponent. Or should I limit myself to the exact same amount of training as them at the same limitations of strength and endurance instead of pushing myself beyond my own capabilities?
Stats on gear in MMOs reflect the strength your character would attain from acquiring that gear. So if you fight someone too strong for you due to them putting more work in? Put more work into it yourself.
You're overlooking the fact that there are weight classes in fighting.
I've been an athlete all my life. There's a reason they don't match a 220 lb guy against the guy that weights 130. People wouldn't enjoy watching such a one-sided fight either. The weight difference in fighting is equivalent to gear advantages in games.
Well of course you have weight classes. But if you take a 195lbs office worker who has never been in a fight in his life against a Lightheavyweight Champion at the same weight, they will get absolutely destroyed.
See that analogy described the skill difference. Gear difference would be giving the office worker metal gauntlets while the champion has rubber gloves. Now it's less about who is more skilled, because someone just had better gear...
Where as if they both get access to the same line up of gloves it levels the paying field and the skill dominates more.
In an RPG its not just the players skill, your characters stats factors into its ability. This is reflected in gear acquired, and level achieved. Itd be one thing if none of the items gave stats, and only provided armor and damage modifiers. But gear stats in RPGs are meant to reflect the strength and power gained through getting that item. And even then, nobody in this instance would stop the champ from putting on some gauntlets they pick up as well. Both players have access to the gear, its just a matter of them picking it up.
I already said I'm not sure OPs idea belongs in ashes...
That being said I feel like for something like a instanced leader board the bragging rights would mean more if it was skill-based as opposed to someone who's had more free time...
If it's going to be instanced either way they could make two different leagues, one where it's bring your own gear and one where gear is issued of an equalizing tier set. Have two different leader boards.
to me thats no different than PVE and PVP servers honestly. No need to separate the player base
Nah
I see it as two different competitions.
Kind of like a track meet with different events. We have 1v1, 3v3, 8v8, standardized gear leagues, objective based arenas instead of just kill team, etc.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. Its like PVE and PVP servers because it separates the requirement to PVE from PVPing. You can simply ignore all of the PVE content if you can just queue up into instanced PVP at an even level and stats with your opponents and automatically gain access to all gear needed for it.
I would like to get experience while doing the caravans and the monthly castle siege activities because that would be combined with other activities too and would benefit the node and my fellow citizens too.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
A game that is open to esports cannot limit its participants to those who have hundreds or thousands of hours to spare to even achieve a level where they can begin competing. The barrier to entry would be too high and the idea of potential esports is DOA if that's the case.
This is both counterintuitively incorrect AND not relevant to Ashes.
Since gear can be traded in Ashes, any eSports org would simply have more players from whom they could source gear for their mainline members.
And, similarly, since Ashes 'as an eSport' would probably be both 'bracketed' and 'team based', it is unlikely that they would NOT have a hundred/thousand hour requirement, as that is what many games require to enter the skill bracket where you are part of the 'competitive tier'.
That said, you would still be able to compete in related brackets.
So if there is a 'level 30 bracket' all you would need is 'enough other people to give you good level 30 gear' and your skill and you have the 'standard outcome'.
I cannot name a single mmo or gear-based game that takes hundreds or thousands of hours to farm for that has a successful and thriving esports scene. You need a large number of players to fuel the competition and to make it profitable enough for gaming orgs to invest resources in the players they pick up. Artificially increasing the barrier to entry for whatever gamemode has the potential to be esports is going to hurt that potential. I have a lot of experience with orgs and the players on them due to my gaming history, I also know firsthand how quickly orgs can pull out out games and drop their members when the numbers don't support their efforts. My coach that scouted me for Apex was signed to one of the biggest orgs in the game as a professional player, my teammate was picked up to one of the top 3 orgs as a pro, I have other friends in the scene as well that still compete. Even in Apex, a massive game, both of those first 2 orgs pulled out and dropped their rosters (along with several other orgs) when the competition was struggling for a brief period of time. Many of them ended up recruiting in Valorant where the money was.
I may be wrong, but from my experience, I highly doubt an esports org will have a team of players farming gear for the main roster unless they were able to pull in hundreds of thousands of dollars at a minimum from Ashes esports. Content creation is a much safer alternative which is why you see a lot of pro players transition from high risk, high stress esports careers into safer, lower stress content creation contracts when given the opportunity.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
I say that core MMORPG design isn't a bad thing, it just doesn't mesh as well with Esports as FPS or MOBAs do, and thats fine. This is mostly due to the importance of progression in MMORPGs, where in most FPS and MOBAS, progression is either achieveable in hours, or it's merely achievements or skins to be earned for bragging rights. You don't need to push esports if it is contradicting the games original game design goals. And you also can't force the horse to drink water, it's easy to see that people prefer super fast paced action based games. Not so much for MMO's. Push it all you want in esports but I don't think MMORPGs will ever make it in Esports like other big titles, simply because people don't really care about them in that scene.
I hope Ashes goes with its champion system for arenas. That way, you can gear your champion from the arena and progress gear in that manner in instanced content. As well as you being able to play a viable 1v1 build in the arena while maintaining your normal open world build.
I am siding with @NiKr on this one. Without the ability to switch things up via gear, you have less flexibility for playstyle and making builds. I get the OP trying to focus on player skill for arenas, but skill can also come from creating builds, and acquiring gear. I am by no means a huge PVE player, but if I manage to snag an amazing piece of gear and its gives me zero boost in any competitive PvP, thats lame as hell.
You can still switch things up via gear absolutely! The base armor stars are locked in but other than that, you have all the freedom to pick perks and addons such as frost resist, bleed sesist, % critical chance, % chance to cause bleed, % chance to proc heal, etc etc.
Also, separating gear stats acquired through PVE for competitive PVP is directly contradicting the PvX mentality. To become great at PvP, you should need to acquire the gear through PvE
I agree 100% with the PvX side of things for all world PvP (node sieges, owpvp, caravan sieges, castles, etc) but I think adding this feature for arenas only would be great.
If I put in the time to get amazing gear, I want to be able to use it in every aspect of the game, especially the competitive instanced PVP. And switching gear should require you to have that gear. Not having an entire wardrobe to pick from at will. Otherwise you can basically ignore the rest of the game to only PvP. Vote is no.
I always found it interesting when people enjoy winning knowing they have a stat advantage over their opponents. If I beat someone like that, it feels cheap. I would rather win knowing I played better than due to the fact that I farmed for longer than they did/got luckier. But to each their own.
I enjoy winning with gear that I have earned, thus earning that advantage if there even is one. I have even more fun if I outplay someone who has slightly or even far better gear than I do, but you cant do that if everyone is a cookie-cutter stat block. Wanting everyone to have the same crap, to me, is just lazy and doesnt want to put the work in on the PVE side of things, and I am even saying that as a PvP sociopath.
Yeah that's a philosophical difference. I don't want to be able to earn advantages, it takes away the satisfaction of knowing I fought better than they did because I wouldn't know if I won because of gear or skill. I'm not saying there's no skill in acquiring gear or putting together good builds, but that's completely different than fighting skill and actually being good at PvP. I liken it to having a numbers advantage over your opponent(s). For example, if an arena match was 6v5, the team with 6 will have an advantage at all times. If I was on the team of 6 and won, that would feel lame. If I lost, that also feels lame. It's a lose-lose for me. At that point, I don't know why I'd even play. But that's why I prefer games with equalized gear systems in PvP.
I look at it like training for a fight irl. If I put more work in and train harder than the other person and I make myself mentally stronger than my opponent, I am working to give myself an advantage over my opponent. Or should I limit myself to the exact same amount of training as them at the same limitations of strength and endurance instead of pushing myself beyond my own capabilities?
Stats on gear in MMOs reflect the strength your character would attain from acquiring that gear. So if you fight someone too strong for you due to them putting more work in? Put more work into it yourself.
You're overlooking the fact that there are weight classes in fighting.
I've been an athlete all my life. There's a reason they don't match a 220 lb guy against the guy that weights 130. People wouldn't enjoy watching such a one-sided fight either. The weight difference in fighting is equivalent to gear advantages in games.
Well of course you have weight classes. But if you take a 195lbs office worker who has never been in a fight in his life against a Lightheavyweight Champion at the same weight, they will get absolutely destroyed.
See that analogy described the skill difference. Gear difference would be giving the office worker metal gauntlets while the champion has rubber gloves. Now it's less about who is more skilled, because someone just had better gear...
Where as if they both get access to the same line up of gloves it levels the paying field and the skill dominates more.
In an RPG its not just the players skill, your characters stats factors into its ability. This is reflected in gear acquired, and level achieved. Itd be one thing if none of the items gave stats, and only provided armor and damage modifiers. But gear stats in RPGs are meant to reflect the strength and power gained through getting that item. And even then, nobody in this instance would stop the champ from putting on some gauntlets they pick up as well. Both players have access to the gear, its just a matter of them picking it up.
I already said I'm not sure OPs idea belongs in ashes...
That being said I feel like for something like a instanced leader board the bragging rights would mean more if it was skill-based as opposed to someone who's had more free time...
If it's going to be instanced either way they could make two different leagues, one where it's bring your own gear and one where gear is issued of an equalizing tier set. Have two different leader boards.
to me thats no different than PVE and PVP servers honestly. No need to separate the player base
Nah
I see it as two different competitions.
Kind of like a track meet with different events. We have 1v1, 3v3, 8v8, standardized gear leagues, objective based arenas instead of just kill team, etc.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. Its like PVE and PVP servers because it separates the requirement to PVE from PVPing. You can simply ignore all of the PVE content if you can just queue up into instanced PVP at an even level and stats with your opponents and automatically gain access to all gear needed for it.
Ok
Yeah I did miss your point, I got you now. I see what you're saying, but in this case would that be bad? It's just the inverse of people like me. I play MMORPGs for the dungeons and raids. I don't mind fighting others, and I'm looking forward to node seiges, caravans, and battleground type events. But I have no interest in competitive pvp arenas. I'm sure there are some people that would love to spend all day in the arenas and would enjoy that.
I only chimed in to voice the opinion of "if you're going to have truly competitive pvp rankings, you should minimize any other factors outside of pure skill." Because how well do you know and can you play the class isn't the same as how many hours have you didn't grinding out mats to build the best gear.
I was also the type who enjoyed PvP in GW2 more than other MMOs because of it's equalized gear... It felt better knowing that I just outplayed two people at once rather than knowing I just had better gear than them. But that's just my opinion.
But I get that is more of the mindset for competition type games... MMOs aren't noted for that as already mentioned.
I acknowledge that isn't what ashes is looking for, hence my saying I'm not sure what the OP asked for fits in here. Even if I personally like the idea, I don't know if it would work out well.
I only chimed in to voice the opinion of "if you're going to have truly competitive pvp rankings, you should minimize any other factors outside of pure skill." Because how well do you know and can you play the class isn't the same as how many hours have you didn't grinding out mats to build the best gear.
Gear will supposedly sum up to a half of your character's power. So your time spent in the game will mean that half of it was spent on gear power and half of it was spent on honing your gameplay skills. Removing a whole damn half of that means that you're removing half of the investment in the game. If both lvl and gear is just given to you - you haven't played the game at all. And that's pretty much what has been suggested in this thread.
I only chimed in to voice the opinion of "if you're going to have truly competitive pvp rankings, you should minimize any other factors outside of pure skill." Because how well do you know and can you play the class isn't the same as how many hours have you didn't grinding out mats to build the best gear.
Gear will supposedly sum up to a half of your character's power. So your time spent in the game will mean that half of it was spent on gear power and half of it was spent on honing your gameplay skills. Removing a whole damn half of that means that you're removing half of the investment in the game. If both lvl and gear is just given to you - you haven't played the game at all. And that's pretty much what has been suggested in this thread.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
That's my point though. People that only care about arena pvp wouldn't have to play the game at all, because they'd be given the gear to participate in the arena pvp. To me that's bullshit. Obviously GW has a different design, but that whole game's design is different from what Ashes is trying to do, which is why I don't think that this kind of arena mechanic would work (or even should work).
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
That's my point though. People that only care about arena pvp wouldn't have to play the game at all, because they'd be given the gear to participate in the arena pvp. To me that's bullshit. Obviously GW has a different design, but that whole game's design is different from what Ashes is trying to do, which is why I don't think that this kind of arena mechanic would work (or even should work).
There are players than want to PvE to get gear so they can PvP. There are others that would rather PvP to get the gear to PvE.
There's more freedom for players to do what they enjoy when there are alternate forms of progression.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
That's my point though. People that only care about arena pvp wouldn't have to play the game at all, because they'd be given the gear to participate in the arena pvp. To me that's bullshit. Obviously GW has a different design, but that whole game's design is different from what Ashes is trying to do, which is why I don't think that this kind of arena mechanic would work (or even should work).
There are players than want to PvE to get gear so they can PvP. There are others that would rather PvP to get the gear to PvE.
There's more freedom for players to do what they enjoy when there are alternate forms of progression.
PvP progression paths in MMOs are a little too much 'freedom' a lot of the time though.
Throwing matches, colluding, outright agreeing with or paying someone externally to let you beat them...
It's theoretically fun, but just ends with the players who want to play legitimately and NOT do any of those things being left in the dust by everyone who does.
Too many problems, which is why the assumption is almost always 'just get to PvP with provided PvP gear'.
Fortunately Ashes will probably have quite a few people willing to pay their Mercenaries to literally PvP, and pay them in 'PvE gear' or enough coin to get it.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
That's my point though. People that only care about arena pvp wouldn't have to play the game at all, because they'd be given the gear to participate in the arena pvp. To me that's bullshit. Obviously GW has a different design, but that whole game's design is different from what Ashes is trying to do, which is why I don't think that this kind of arena mechanic would work (or even should work).
There are players than want to PvE to get gear so they can PvP. There are others that would rather PvP to get the gear to PvE.
There's more freedom for players to do what they enjoy when there are alternate forms of progression.
PvP progression paths in MMOs are a little too much 'freedom' a lot of the time though.
Throwing matches, colluding, outright agreeing with or paying someone externally to let you beat them...
It's theoretically fun, but just ends with the players who want to play legitimately and NOT do any of those things being left in the dust by everyone who does.
Too many problems, which is why the assumption is almost always 'just get to PvP with provided PvP gear'.
Fortunately Ashes will probably have quite a few people willing to pay their Mercenaries to literally PvP, and pay them in 'PvE gear' or enough coin to get it.
It sounds like gear is going to be capped anyways, so if the gear acquired specifically through PvP is character/account-bound then there's technically no benefit for doing any of that. Players wouldn't be able to profit off any ill-gotten gains unless they were selling their entire account which I'm sure would be bannable. And if the gear is provided in PvP, then the monetary rewards can also be lower as they do not have to fund the sets they use. I think most strict-PvPers are used to being poorer than strict-PvErs in all MMOs I've played anyways.
Equalized gear in arenas also prevents that as everyone fights on an even playing field, and if the amount of players participating in the gamemode are high enough due to a low barrier to entry, then the matchmaking should make it more difficult to find people to do shady dealings with.
As a final point, a good reporting and banning system is important for any competitive game. If these players are throwing, colluding, or gaming the system in some way and get caught, being able to report them and have action taken swiftly (ban as quickly as possible to limit the amount of damage these players can cause) is important.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
That's my point though. People that only care about arena pvp wouldn't have to play the game at all, because they'd be given the gear to participate in the arena pvp. To me that's bullshit. Obviously GW has a different design, but that whole game's design is different from what Ashes is trying to do, which is why I don't think that this kind of arena mechanic would work (or even should work).
There are players than want to PvE to get gear so they can PvP. There are others that would rather PvP to get the gear to PvE.
There's more freedom for players to do what they enjoy when there are alternate forms of progression.
The issue I have with this is basically as Steven has stated.
Ashes as a game needs players out in the open world, competing for resources, fighting over caravans, generating conflict that leads to guild wars, node wars and sieges.
The game as a whole is basically nothing without these things happening.
Why then would Intrepid give players a reason to log in to the game and literally spend their time outside of all of the above in an arena system that forsnt require them to participate in all of the above?
It straight up isnt a fit for this game. It is diametrically opposed to what Ashes is.
Comments
No, we do know who is correct.
The interface discussed is for viewing the arena, not participating in it.
Also, that interface is likely to be an in game UI element anyway, so will still be a part of the persistent game world mode.
Again, that isnt what Intrepid want for Ashes.
Please understand that my point was in no way meant to say 'this would result in a good eSports scene for Ashes'.
It was meant to indicate that given what Ashes is, if there were to be any situation in which this were the case, it would end up like this.
My other post above may provide more background on the thought process that led to mentioning it, though. If you find that one to be equally irrelevant, you can just ignore me.
Honestly, are there any successful and thriving MMORPG Esports? Fundamentally they don't seem to be ideal for the Esports scene in general. They are simply for players to enjoy.
No there aren't. That's my point. Historically, MMOs have not been designed in a way that even allows esports to begin growing. Steven said that Ashes arenas will naturally move in the direction of esports if they make the gameplay compelling, competitive, and fun. I would hope they are able to achieve this, but esports only succeeds if there's money to be made in it. I wish this wasn't the case and that more games had thriving esports, but the reality is that esports goes where the money is, and the money goes where the players are. A low barrier to entry results in a higher population, which results in more money, which then opens the doors for orgs to come in and sign players.
That's why games like Fortnite were and are so successful. Low barrier to entry, low skill floor, high skill ceiling, they pumped money into the esports scene to attract millions of players and skyrocket the viewership which was extremely enticing for orgs to get in on to recruit the best players before other orgs could snatch them up.
Yes, of course. Thank you for providing more background, it is not irrelevant and I appreciate it. I am not trying to fight anyone, I am just sharing my thoughts and experiences regarding the topic.
But then it isn't an MMORPG anymore most of the time.
I am sure that Ashes could make a good 'fighting game', a good 'multiplayer team arena deathmatch' game, or a good 'tactical shooter arena' game, and any of those would be successful. They could even make what you are (indirectly) suggesting, a kit-based one separate from the rest of the game as a generality.
But those will probably not be considered MMORPGs by most people either. Since Intrepid's goal is to make an MMORPG, the question is if that MMORPG, with most if not all of its MMORPG elements INTACT, could make a good eSport.
According to your definitions, the answer is most likely no.
I agree with you. I also believe that just because it hasn't been successful in the past, doesn't mean it can't be successful in the future. I think we can all agree that Ashes has a lot of potential. We all want the game to do well. I, for one, will end up playing it and creating content for it regardless of whether it has esports or not. I think it would be a remarkable achievement if Ashes were able to foster and maintain an environment conducive to esports where all other MMOs (that I know of) have failed. If the RIOT mmo ends up having esports, I would bet money they use similar strategies to grow their scene because they've used these same strategies in their games like Valorant and League.
I think that would be great.
I just definitely don't think that the concepts of leveling the playing field or equalizing gear in any of the ways mentioned in the OP would lead to that.
The game could, like GW, focus on people 'perfecting' their builds rather than 'gaining direct power', with all 'direct power' being leveraged through nodes, or Guild Perks (which presumably might disappear in Arena matches, but then it's the same thing if they choose perks that affect combat, for whatever reason).
But if it DID do that, there would be no need to equalize that much. It would just be like playing a very slow MOBA. Gear for your bracket, perfect your gear, compete, repeat.
And without the 'concern' that the best Warlock on the server' is 'nerfed' in PvP arena because their Legendary Staff of Resna's Blessing isn't 'allowed' even though it isn't actually explicitly 'superior' to other staves.
I would say that any such requests or appeals to Intrepid would be better focused on getting them to do the gear itemization in a way that prevents the whole 'you beat me through your Objectively Statistically Better Gear' problem outright.
We need some more Diagonal Progression (this is an in-joke, you can ignore it).
Guild Wars 2 also had esports organized by the world's largest esports company at one point. We had orgs sign teams and a few world championships with prize pools of up to $400,000 USD. But that only lasted a few years. I would have competed myself but I was not old enough to fly to the tournaments alone at the time. And by the time I was old enough, Guild Wars 2 got dropped by ESL because they viewership started to decline in part due to balancing issues and a slow balancing rate causing a boring meta to watch.
As far as I know, I can't think of any MMOs that were able to cultivate and currently maintain a successful esports scene. Is WoW esports doing well? If anyone can provide clarity or any other examples, that would be great.
LOL @diagonal progression.
Yeah I agree. I feel that Ashes is already going that route seeing as how progression transitions from vertical to horizontal upon reaching max level. But we'll see what happens.
The advantage comes from training, not the equipment athletes wear. An athlete would not feel good competing against a guy with sandals. At least give him proper running shoes, then let's compete, and the one who trained the hardest will win. The guy who never had runnings came from an extremely poor town, it was out of his own control to get good equipment, but he trained hard every day and he is actually better than the pro with 300$ nike shoes, but no one will ever know, because the race values gear instead of skill.
In sport, you spend time working on getting better (training) and you get better, this is accepted by the two of you, it seems.
In an MMO, you spend time working on getting better (gear) and you get better, this does not seem to be accepted by the two of you.
Gear is literally just an expression of the effort you have put in to make your character better.
Yeah, it was proven with GW2 that esports and MMO's don't go well together.
The changes essentially demanded by the league in order to stay in the game would have made the game itself less enjoyable - because MMO's simply are not about ultra balanced PvP.
What I don't get is why anyone would think a game like Ashes - where the developers have outright said the game is about the open world and interacting with the systems in said open world - would want to promote an arena based esport. There is literally no way for Intrepid to gain if Ashes arena did become an esport - either people would see it, come to the game and be upset by the fact that the game is an MMO not a lobby based arena, or the game would have to shift to being a lobby based arena to satisfy the people coming due to it being an esport.
It just doesn't make sense for Intrepid to want Ashes to be an esport, which is why they don't want Ashes to be an esport.
equalized arenas give you a stat advantage :P, its hard to see, but it exists. some classes need to reach a certain amount of a stat to be able to function. equalized arenas might not let them reach that stat with the available gear (or stat increasing option), so by picking a different class that doesn't need to reach a certain number in a stat (let's say casting speed) you have a stat advantage over them. don't you feel bad beating them like that? classes that couldn't kill you, now can.
what about people chasing the FOTM and winning? don't you feel bad picking a strong class and winning? why don't you play the most underpowered and trashy class of all and beat everybody? you would feel better that way wouldn't you?
and saying that they are available to everybody at any time isn't a good argument, because not everybody enjoys playing a certain class or role, and there are players who want to be the best at 1 class, no matter if it's FOTM or not. I mean, you never see 100% of the players playing the FOTM class. equalized arenas with instant levels will allow people to switch to FOTM classes faster than they switch underwear. how is winning like that much better? how is that not having a stat advantage? why do you play the class that can do 1k dps and not the one that does 500 or 800 dps? isn't that a stat advantage? what about healing? why have 1 health bar when you can have 10. isn't that a stat advantage? not every class can heal so they are fked
at least, people cant swap characters so fast in normal arenas, because they have to level them up and gear them, and ashes isn't p2w, so gear won't really have a huge impact.
and don't get me started on queue manipulation.
also, separating pvp and pve isn't the direction of ashes. equalized arenas should be the last option if for whatever reason they can't make regular arenas work.
just say you wanna skip the farm and do pvp man, there's nothing wrong with that. but don't say it's better.
regarding the training argument, mmorpg =/= real life (but even then, you won't have Michael Jordan play vs a rookie in a tournament, would you?). instant max level arenas allow the player who plays 10 hours a day to learn every class by playing them, faster than the guy who plays 2 hours a day, while also giving him the ability to switch to FOTM much quicker and stomp, and that's an advantage and it's fine, use everything you have. if you spend 10 hours a day training, you should get better rewards than the guy who spends 2 hours a day training.
the reason I bring that up is because of the time-reward argument, which still applies to eq arenas. the argument in favor of eq arenas with instant levels is to remove the time it takes to grind gear and the reward for spending such time. but in reality, it just replaces one grind with another. if you wanna be the best smash bros or mortal combat player, at some point you will learn all the characters, even if you only play 1 or 2 (and switch cuz of meta every few months), so that you can counter them. hell, even in LoL you wanna learn other characters to avoid their wombo combo. so the guy grinding arena for more hours will more likely get better rewards, the same way the guy grinding the regular game for more hours, will get better rewards and removing that is a slap to the face to the guys who spent all that time and effort out there. in a game that separates pvp and pve, that's fine, but ashes inst that game. eq arenas would be ok if every class in aoc was a dps class, like in gw, bns and la
Nah
I see it as two different competitions.
Kind of like a track meet with different events. We have 1v1, 3v3, 8v8, standardized gear leagues, objective based arenas instead of just kill team, etc.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. Its like PVE and PVP servers because it separates the requirement to PVE from PVPing. You can simply ignore all of the PVE content if you can just queue up into instanced PVP at an even level and stats with your opponents and automatically gain access to all gear needed for it.
I say that core MMORPG design isn't a bad thing, it just doesn't mesh as well with Esports as FPS or MOBAs do, and thats fine. This is mostly due to the importance of progression in MMORPGs, where in most FPS and MOBAS, progression is either achieveable in hours, or it's merely achievements or skins to be earned for bragging rights. You don't need to push esports if it is contradicting the games original game design goals. And you also can't force the horse to drink water, it's easy to see that people prefer super fast paced action based games. Not so much for MMO's. Push it all you want in esports but I don't think MMORPGs will ever make it in Esports like other big titles, simply because people don't really care about them in that scene.
Ok
Yeah I did miss your point, I got you now. I see what you're saying, but in this case would that be bad? It's just the inverse of people like me. I play MMORPGs for the dungeons and raids. I don't mind fighting others, and I'm looking forward to node seiges, caravans, and battleground type events. But I have no interest in competitive pvp arenas. I'm sure there are some people that would love to spend all day in the arenas and would enjoy that.
I only chimed in to voice the opinion of "if you're going to have truly competitive pvp rankings, you should minimize any other factors outside of pure skill." Because how well do you know and can you play the class isn't the same as how many hours have you didn't grinding out mats to build the best gear.
I was also the type who enjoyed PvP in GW2 more than other MMOs because of it's equalized gear... It felt better knowing that I just outplayed two people at once rather than knowing I just had better gear than them. But that's just my opinion.
But I get that is more of the mindset for competition type games... MMOs aren't noted for that as already mentioned.
I acknowledge that isn't what ashes is looking for, hence my saying I'm not sure what the OP asked for fits in here. Even if I personally like the idea, I don't know if it would work out well.
Oh
I didn't take it that way
I pictured it being exactly like GW2
In this instance you get gear that only works in this instance.
There are players than want to PvE to get gear so they can PvP. There are others that would rather PvP to get the gear to PvE.
There's more freedom for players to do what they enjoy when there are alternate forms of progression.
PvP progression paths in MMOs are a little too much 'freedom' a lot of the time though.
Throwing matches, colluding, outright agreeing with or paying someone externally to let you beat them...
It's theoretically fun, but just ends with the players who want to play legitimately and NOT do any of those things being left in the dust by everyone who does.
Too many problems, which is why the assumption is almost always 'just get to PvP with provided PvP gear'.
Fortunately Ashes will probably have quite a few people willing to pay their Mercenaries to literally PvP, and pay them in 'PvE gear' or enough coin to get it.
It sounds like gear is going to be capped anyways, so if the gear acquired specifically through PvP is character/account-bound then there's technically no benefit for doing any of that. Players wouldn't be able to profit off any ill-gotten gains unless they were selling their entire account which I'm sure would be bannable. And if the gear is provided in PvP, then the monetary rewards can also be lower as they do not have to fund the sets they use. I think most strict-PvPers are used to being poorer than strict-PvErs in all MMOs I've played anyways.
Equalized gear in arenas also prevents that as everyone fights on an even playing field, and if the amount of players participating in the gamemode are high enough due to a low barrier to entry, then the matchmaking should make it more difficult to find people to do shady dealings with.
As a final point, a good reporting and banning system is important for any competitive game. If these players are throwing, colluding, or gaming the system in some way and get caught, being able to report them and have action taken swiftly (ban as quickly as possible to limit the amount of damage these players can cause) is important.
Ashes as a game needs players out in the open world, competing for resources, fighting over caravans, generating conflict that leads to guild wars, node wars and sieges.
The game as a whole is basically nothing without these things happening.
Why then would Intrepid give players a reason to log in to the game and literally spend their time outside of all of the above in an arena system that forsnt require them to participate in all of the above?
It straight up isnt a fit for this game. It is diametrically opposed to what Ashes is.