Esports needing a large population and money to succeed.
That content creation (a.k.a. influencing) contracts are more lucrative.
That operating teams is expensive and they operate them at a loss (hence why an org won't have a team of PvErs funneling gear into a team of PvPers unless they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the game at a minimum)
If the average esport watching enthusiast only produces $5.30 USD in revenue annually, then it becomes even more important to capture a wider audience. Alienating and expelling players with common preferences like the ones that are interested in arena PvP, would only hurt any potential Ashes has of esports. Otherwise, remember what I said? Esports is not likely to succeed.
Also, interestingly enough, games that have a higher population of players that already spend money on the game make it significantly more likely that they support the games' content creators and tournament scenes. This also makes it more enticing for sponsors and advertisers. On the contrary, games that can be completely F2P often have a population of players that are less likely to support. Ashes having a sub model is a good thing in this case.
I'm unsure how you came to the above conclusion from that article.
The article was literally saying sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games.
Ashes is not going to be one of the most popular games, it is going to have an audience of less than a million players after a year.
It is literally the type of game esport sponsors would nope right out off immediately.
If you want to try and convince a game to support esport, either come in with a sponsor ready to put money in to the game in question (or teams in the game in question), or talk to games with guaranteed populations in the tens of millions (Diablo 4, Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6 etc).
Asking a small developer to alter their game, making it a worse example of the game genre it is intended to be, all in the hopes of generating an esport out of nothing in an environment where esport sponsors are shying away from sponsoring is not likely to be received well.
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
Esports needing a large population and money to succeed.
That content creation (a.k.a. influencing) contracts are more lucrative.
That operating teams is expensive and they operate them at a loss (hence why an org won't have a team of PvErs funneling gear into a team of PvPers unless they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the game at a minimum)
If the average esport watching enthusiast only produces $5.30 USD in revenue annually, then it becomes even more important to capture a wider audience. Alienating and expelling players with common preferences like the ones that are interested in arena PvP, would only hurt any potential Ashes has of esports. Otherwise, remember what I said? Esports is not likely to succeed.
Also, interestingly enough, games that have a higher population of players that already spend money on the game make it significantly more likely that they support the games' content creators and tournament scenes. This also makes it more enticing for sponsors and advertisers. On the contrary, games that can be completely F2P often have a population of players that are less likely to support. Ashes having a sub model is a good thing in this case.
I'm unsure how you came to the above conclusion from that article.
The article was literally saying sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games.
Ashes is not going to be one of the most popular games, it is going to have an audience of less than a million players after a year.
It is literally the type of game esport sponsors would nope right out off immediately.
If you want to try and convince a game to support esport, either come in with a sponsor ready to put money in to the game in question (or teams in the game in question), or talk to games with guaranteed populations in the tens of millions (Diablo 4, Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6 etc).
Asking a small developer to alter their game, making it a worse example of the game genre it is intended to be, all in the hopes of generating an esport out of nothing in an environment where esport sponsors are shying away from sponsoring is not likely to be received well.
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
I fear you have ended up in that place in an 'argument' where the only person who understands the purpose of your own point is yourself.
Ashes would have to do work to make eSports happen.
None of US necessarily want it to happen. None of us (as far as I can see) care if Intrepid wants it to happen or tries to make it happen.
Some of us aren't even sure that INTREPID wants to make it happen.
We're just not the Target Audience for your points in the first place, however well-presented your overall 'case' manages to be.
There is literally no problem. You are trying to create one where there is none. You want to force esports onto a game that has nothing to do with esports and then you claim that the game will die off if it doesn't do what you want it to do, even though devs have said from the start that they are not making the game into an esport.
I don't have the stats, but I'm fairly sure that quite the majority of mmo twitch viewers would be in that 25-34 group, which is exactly the people I mentioned. And if Ashes becomes a good MMORPG , that audience will watch the game, boost its viewers on twitch which could then attract even more people to the game even outside of that TA. I'm fairly sure that's what happened to FF14 (outside of pure word of mouth).
If by some chance the final version of Ashes can support an esport scene within the game w/o completely ruining the game in the process, I'm sure that Steven will do good on his promise and support that scene. But forcing esports onto a game that's not meant for it doesn't bode well. Hell, forcing it onto a game that was literally made for it doesn't really work either. Iirc OW tried that shit and failed miserably. Pretty sure there were a few more examples too.
Esports needing a large population and money to succeed.
That content creation (a.k.a. influencing) contracts are more lucrative.
That operating teams is expensive and they operate them at a loss (hence why an org won't have a team of PvErs funneling gear into a team of PvPers unless they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the game at a minimum)
If the average esport watching enthusiast only produces $5.30 USD in revenue annually, then it becomes even more important to capture a wider audience. Alienating and expelling players with common preferences like the ones that are interested in arena PvP, would only hurt any potential Ashes has of esports. Otherwise, remember what I said? Esports is not likely to succeed.
Also, interestingly enough, games that have a higher population of players that already spend money on the game make it significantly more likely that they support the games' content creators and tournament scenes. This also makes it more enticing for sponsors and advertisers. On the contrary, games that can be completely F2P often have a population of players that are less likely to support. Ashes having a sub model is a good thing in this case.
I'm unsure how you came to the above conclusion from that article.
The article was literally saying sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games.
Ashes is not going to be one of the most popular games, it is going to have an audience of less than a million players after a year.
It is literally the type of game esport sponsors would nope right out off immediately.
If you want to try and convince a game to support esport, either come in with a sponsor ready to put money in to the game in question (or teams in the game in question), or talk to games with guaranteed populations in the tens of millions (Diablo 4, Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6 etc).
Asking a small developer to alter their game, making it a worse example of the game genre it is intended to be, all in the hopes of generating an esport out of nothing in an environment where esport sponsors are shying away from sponsoring is not likely to be received well.
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
I fear you have ended up in that place in an 'argument' where the only person who understands the purpose of your own point is yourself.
Ashes would have to do work to make eSports happen.
None of US necessarily want it to happen. None of us (as far as I can see) care if Intrepid wants it to happen or tries to make it happen.
Some of us aren't even sure that INTREPID wants to make it happen.
We're just not the Target Audience for your points in the first place, however well-presented your overall 'case' manages to be.
The bolded is what I have been saying the whole time. Esports does not just happen on its own and it needs specific things to succeed.
I've described what it needs, and everyone keeps responding with "oh but that's not what Intrepid is focusing on" or "we're not the target demographic" like ???
I know that! I'm not disagreeing!
But if the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does matches the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either!
Esports needing a large population and money to succeed.
That content creation (a.k.a. influencing) contracts are more lucrative.
That operating teams is expensive and they operate them at a loss (hence why an org won't have a team of PvErs funneling gear into a team of PvPers unless they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the game at a minimum)
If the average esport watching enthusiast only produces $5.30 USD in revenue annually, then it becomes even more important to capture a wider audience. Alienating and expelling players with common preferences like the ones that are interested in arena PvP, would only hurt any potential Ashes has of esports. Otherwise, remember what I said? Esports is not likely to succeed.
Also, interestingly enough, games that have a higher population of players that already spend money on the game make it significantly more likely that they support the games' content creators and tournament scenes. This also makes it more enticing for sponsors and advertisers. On the contrary, games that can be completely F2P often have a population of players that are less likely to support. Ashes having a sub model is a good thing in this case.
I'm unsure how you came to the above conclusion from that article.
The article was literally saying sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games.
Ashes is not going to be one of the most popular games, it is going to have an audience of less than a million players after a year.
It is literally the type of game esport sponsors would nope right out off immediately.
If you want to try and convince a game to support esport, either come in with a sponsor ready to put money in to the game in question (or teams in the game in question), or talk to games with guaranteed populations in the tens of millions (Diablo 4, Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6 etc).
Asking a small developer to alter their game, making it a worse example of the game genre it is intended to be, all in the hopes of generating an esport out of nothing in an environment where esport sponsors are shying away from sponsoring is not likely to be received well.
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
I fear you have ended up in that place in an 'argument' where the only person who understands the purpose of your own point is yourself.
Ashes would have to do work to make eSports happen.
None of US necessarily want it to happen. None of us (as far as I can see) care if Intrepid wants it to happen or tries to make it happen.
Some of us aren't even sure that INTREPID wants to make it happen.
We're just not the Target Audience for your points in the first place, however well-presented your overall 'case' manages to be.
The bolded is what I have been saying the whole time. Esports does not just happen on its own and it needs specific things to succeed.
Yes, good. We agree.
We don't want those things, generally, it seems, and therefore don't want Ashes to be an eSport.
Perhaps Steven did not know what eSports required back when he made that comment, and therefore did not know what needed to be considered or added to the game.
If you give Steven a 'list of requirements for making a good eSport', he can then go 'yes these sound good' or 'these sound bad for Ashes'.
Our feedback is 'these sound bad for Ashes'. Yours seems to be 'these sound good'.
EDIT: Actually for clarity MY feedback is 'I have no idea how you would manage half of this based on what we have seen so far and what you seemed to want but as a person who likes to poke at eSports I bet you CAN do it in a very specific way', but if I have to distill it down, particularly in the context of this thread, as a y/n 'feedback point', then I do in fact say 'n'.
But If the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does not match the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either! Like oh my god
And this is all I meant. I think others got off your train of thought a few stations ago.
Something has to change for Ashes to be an eSport.
Therefore Steven should take back any comments related to Ashes becoming an eSport, now that this new knowledge has been made available (namely the outcomes of the efforts of eSports organizers for the four years since he said it).
To me, that's what 'should' happen here. Steven should say 'I no longer have any interest in making Ashes an eSport due to the mismatch between the game's goals/demographic and those required for successful eSports'.
But If the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does not match the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either! Like oh my god
And this is all I meant. I think others got off your train of thought a few stations ago.
Something has to change for Ashes to be an eSport.
Therefore Steven should take back any comments related to Ashes becoming an eSport, now that this new knowledge has been made available (namely the outcomes of the efforts of eSports organizers for the four years since he said it).
To me, that's what 'should' happen here. Steven should say 'I no longer have any interest in making Ashes an eSport due to the mismatch between the game's goals/demographic and those required for successful eSports'.
Yes thank you, the bolded is the core of what I've been trying to say. I just provided extra details as to what games need to be esports from my experiences and what I've learned over the years in the competitive scenes. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether Steven takes back the comment or not because I will play the game whether or not it ends up having esports. Though, I still think it would be cool if Ashes could pull it off somehow.
This reminds me of a frequent balance conundrum where people believe PvP should be balanced for either the high end or the low end of the skill spectrum. I always believed it was better to balance for both. High skill ceiling for the high end because that's where skill usage is optimized, but keep the floor low so that less skilled players can be effective as well.
If Intrepid were to put efforts into establishing Ashes arenas as an esport, the way I would want to do it is to figure out how to accommodate the needs/wants of more people while minimizing or eliminating any potential fallout into other gamemodes. If not, no problem. If they can, great.
Esports needing a large population and money to succeed.
That content creation (a.k.a. influencing) contracts are more lucrative.
That operating teams is expensive and they operate them at a loss (hence why an org won't have a team of PvErs funneling gear into a team of PvPers unless they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the game at a minimum)
If the average esport watching enthusiast only produces $5.30 USD in revenue annually, then it becomes even more important to capture a wider audience. Alienating and expelling players with common preferences like the ones that are interested in arena PvP, would only hurt any potential Ashes has of esports. Otherwise, remember what I said? Esports is not likely to succeed.
Also, interestingly enough, games that have a higher population of players that already spend money on the game make it significantly more likely that they support the games' content creators and tournament scenes. This also makes it more enticing for sponsors and advertisers. On the contrary, games that can be completely F2P often have a population of players that are less likely to support. Ashes having a sub model is a good thing in this case.
I'm unsure how you came to the above conclusion from that article.
The article was literally saying sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games.
Ashes is not going to be one of the most popular games, it is going to have an audience of less than a million players after a year.
It is literally the type of game esport sponsors would nope right out off immediately.
If you want to try and convince a game to support esport, either come in with a sponsor ready to put money in to the game in question (or teams in the game in question), or talk to games with guaranteed populations in the tens of millions (Diablo 4, Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6 etc).
Asking a small developer to alter their game, making it a worse example of the game genre it is intended to be, all in the hopes of generating an esport out of nothing in an environment where esport sponsors are shying away from sponsoring is not likely to be received well.
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
I fear you have ended up in that place in an 'argument' where the only person who understands the purpose of your own point is yourself.
Ashes would have to do work to make eSports happen.
None of US necessarily want it to happen. None of us (as far as I can see) care if Intrepid wants it to happen or tries to make it happen.
Some of us aren't even sure that INTREPID wants to make it happen.
We're just not the Target Audience for your points in the first place, however well-presented your overall 'case' manages to be.
The bolded is what I have been saying the whole time. Esports does not just happen on its own and it needs specific things to succeed.
Yes, good. We agree.
We don't want those things, generally, it seems, and therefore don't want Ashes to be an eSport.
Perhaps Steven did not know what eSports required back when he made that comment, and therefore did not know what needed to be considered or added to the game.
If you give Steven a 'list of requirements for making a good eSport', he can then go 'yes these sound good' or 'these sound bad for Ashes'.
Our feedback is 'these sound bad for Ashes'. Yours seems to be 'these sound good'.
EDIT: Actually for clarity MY feedback is 'I have no idea how you would manage half of this based on what we have seen so far and what you seemed to want but as a person who likes to poke at eSports I bet you CAN do it in a very specific way', but if I have to distill it down, particularly in the context of this thread, as a y/n 'feedback point', then I do in fact say 'n'.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
So, there is obviously something here you are not understanding, I'll just reiterate a few points, and you let me know which of them you disagree with.
Intrepid do not intend to develop Ashes as an esport.
If Ashes turns out to be viable as an esport (as in, has teams with sponsors), they may support that.
Esport sponsors need a large audience in order to consider sponsoring.
Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game.
Ashes is a niche game within a niche section of a niche genre, and as such can expect a player count of around 500k 12 months after launch.
These facts, when added up, should inform anyone with an understanding of basically anything that Ashes is not a viable game for an actual esport scene. Since you are arguing for an esport scene in Ashes, you are obviously unaware of one or more of them - I am just trying to work out which fact from the above it is.
But If the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does not match the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either! Like oh my god
And this is all I meant. I think others got off your train of thought a few stations ago.
Something has to change for Ashes to be an eSport.
Therefore Steven should take back any comments related to Ashes becoming an eSport, now that this new knowledge has been made available (namely the outcomes of the efforts of eSports organizers for the four years since he said it).
To me, that's what 'should' happen here. Steven should say 'I no longer have any interest in making Ashes an eSport due to the mismatch between the game's goals/demographic and those required for successful eSports'.
Yes thank you, the bolded is the core of what I've been trying to say. I just provided extra details as to what games need to be esports from my experiences and what I've learned over the years in the competitive scenes. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether Steven takes back the comment or not because I will play the game whether or not it ends up having esports. Though, I still think it would be cool if Ashes could pull it off somehow.
This reminds me of a frequent balance conundrum where people believe PvP should be balanced for the high end or the low end of the skill spectrum. I always believed it was better to balance around the high end because that's where skill usage is optimized, but still keep the floor low so that less skilled players can be effective as well.
If Intrepid were to put efforts into establishing Ashes arenas as an esport, the way I would want to do it is to figure out how to accommodate the needs/wants of more people while minimizing or eliminating any fallout into other gamemodes. If not, no problem. If they can, great.
I think the main misconception is we thought you were saying that "ashes needs to change these things for the sake of Esports", not "If Ashes wants to do Esports, this is what needs to be done." Now that I think you seem to be saying the latter, yes I agree, those things would help ashes go down the path of Esports, but sadly I do not find the suggested path to be good for the games intended design as a whole, so Steven should indeed clarify for Esports players like yourself what his intentions of Ashes of Creations involvement in Esports actually is, if any at all at this point.
But If the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does not match the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either! Like oh my god
And this is all I meant. I think others got off your train of thought a few stations ago.
Something has to change for Ashes to be an eSport.
Therefore Steven should take back any comments related to Ashes becoming an eSport, now that this new knowledge has been made available (namely the outcomes of the efforts of eSports organizers for the four years since he said it).
To me, that's what 'should' happen here. Steven should say 'I no longer have any interest in making Ashes an eSport due to the mismatch between the game's goals/demographic and those required for successful eSports'.
Yes thank you, the bolded is the core of what I've been trying to say. I just provided extra details as to what games need to be esports from my experiences and what I've learned over the years in the competitive scenes. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether Steven takes back the comment or not because I will play the game whether or not it ends up having esports. Though, I still think it would be cool if Ashes could pull it off somehow.
This reminds me of a frequent balance conundrum where people believe PvP should be balanced for the high end or the low end of the skill spectrum. I always believed it was better to balance around the high end because that's where skill usage is optimized, but still keep the floor low so that less skilled players can be effective as well.
If Intrepid were to put efforts into establishing Ashes arenas as an esport, the way I would want to do it is to figure out how to accommodate the needs/wants of more people while minimizing or eliminating any fallout into other gamemodes. If not, no problem. If they can, great.
I think the main misconception is we thought you were saying that "ashes needs to change these things for the sake of Esports", not "If Ashes wants to do Esports, this is what needs to be done." Now that I think you seem to be saying the latter, yes I agree, those things would help ashes go down the path of Esports, but sadly I do not find the suggested path to be good for the games intended design as a whole, so Steven should indeed clarify for Esports players like yourself what his intentions of Ashes of Creations involvement in Esports actually is, if any at all at this point.
Yes, the bolded is exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
So, there is obviously something here you are not understanding, I'll just reiterate a few points, and you let me know which of them you disagree with.
Intrepid do not intend to develop Ashes as an esport.
If Ashes turns out to be viable as an esport (as in, has teams with sponsors), they may support that.
Esport sponsors need a large audience in order to consider sponsoring.
Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game.
Ashes is a niche game within a niche section of a niche genre, and as such can expect a player count of around 500k 12 months after launch.
These facts, when added up, should inform anyone with an understanding of basically anything that Ashes is not a viable game for an actual esport scene. Since you are arguing for an esport scene in Ashes, you are obviously unaware of one or more of them - I am just trying to work out which fact from the above it is.
I agree with every single point you just listed. I've been getting frustrated trying to explain that repeatedly. Hence, why I kept saying, "your responses/evidence support my own" or "that's the exact point I was making."
I'm not trying to change the way Ashes is being designed, but rather just trying to:
Show that the current design is not likely able to support esports in its current arena system.
Show what game designs DO support esports.
I've been saying this whole time that IF Intrepid wants Ashes arenas to have esports, there are certain changes or ways they can do things to make that possibility more likely. I do NOT believe that esports is what they're focusing on, nor do I believe that they've expressed interest in wanting to go out of their way to make it happen. And I kept having to clarify that.
Edit: Actually "Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game." is not entirely accurate. Competitive players will play and form teams in games that have a high potential to have competitive scenes.
Scouts and orgs come after, prefaced and/or followed by the actual "esports" part of it (tournaments, etc.). But if that potential is not there, they don't want to play the game just for fun, and they are looking to make a living as a competitive player, then they will likely play a different game that has that potential. That statement is more accurate if it refers to existing teams looking to migrate away from a lucrative, existing game with esports.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
So, there is obviously something here you are not understanding, I'll just reiterate a few points, and you let me know which of them you disagree with.
Intrepid do not intend to develop Ashes as an esport.
If Ashes turns out to be viable as an esport (as in, has teams with sponsors), they may support that.
Esport sponsors need a large audience in order to consider sponsoring.
Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game.
Ashes is a niche game within a niche section of a niche genre, and as such can expect a player count of around 500k 12 months after launch.
These facts, when added up, should inform anyone with an understanding of basically anything that Ashes is not a viable game for an actual esport scene. Since you are arguing for an esport scene in Ashes, you are obviously unaware of one or more of them - I am just trying to work out which fact from the above it is.
I agree with every single point you just listed. I've been getting frustrated trying to explain that repeatedly. Hence, why I kept saying, "your responses/evidence support my own" or "that's the exact point I was making."
So, if we agree that Intrepid aren't interested in making Ashes an esport title, and we agree that sponsors wont put any money in to it to be an esport title, why are we talking about Ashes as an esport title?
In order for it to happen, one of those two groups needs to REALLY want it to happen, but neither of them actually do.
If you want to discuss a hypothetical as to what Intrepid need to do in order to turn Ashes in to a successful esport title if for some reason they had an actual about face and decided they really wanted to do that, then the thing you are missing is that the most important aspect of anything they could do is to not impact the MMO aspect of the game at all.
Since server population and player activity in the games open world is literally key to this game (Stevens words), the absolute first thing that would need to happen is make sure that players just wanting to play in the arena aren't counted towards any given servers population.
Basically, they need to segregate the esport arena population from the rest of the games population.
The thing is, YOU want this to happen, even though YOU are arguing against it. Sure, they could just make it so that you are removed from the server player count when joining the arena, and have the arena itself run on different hardware. The problem then is that with every major update to this game, there will be server queues. If you need to log in to the game in order to participate in the arena, you will need to wait in the queue. When you join the arena you are removed from the server population and someone else can log on to the server - but then when you leave the arena and go back to the open world game, you need to queue again.
Honestly, you don't want this. You want any potential arena or esport of any type to be entirely segregated from the rest of the game.
Once again, if we have an arena that has no inherent connection to the MMO world and doesn't require characters to level or gear up in the game world, we may as well be talking about a different game.
In other words, if you want to talk about Intrepid hypothetically attempting to get in to esport, the only real discussion is about them literally making an esport title after Ashes releases.
Nothing else makes sense, even to discuss hypothetically.
Intrepid is open to the idea of Ashes esports as they stated that they will find the ability to support it in the case it develops. And, I can talk about it because it is interesting to me.
You make too many assumptions about what Ashes needs, what is best for Ashes, what I want, what I don't want, etc. etc. Read my previous posts if you want to know my thoughts on the topic. I've said my piece and have no interest in repeating myself further.
Intrepid is open to the idea of Ashes esports as they stated that they will find the ability to support it in the case it develops. And, I can talk about it because it is interesting to me.
You make too many assumptions about what Ashes needs, what is best for Ashes, what I want, what I don't want, etc. etc. Read my previous posts if you want to know my thoughts on the topic. I've said my piece and have no interest in repeating myself further.
My only assumption as to what you do or do not want is that you do not want to queue up in order to get on to a regular server, to only then remove yourself from that regular server in order to play in the hypothetical esport arena, and then queue up again when you opt to leave said hypothetical esport arena.
if that is not true - if you would like to queue up in order to join a lobby based game - then more power to you. I personally think that it is a reasonable assumption to assume you wouldn't be in favor of queuing in order to participate in a lobby based game, and more to the point I think it is reasonable to assume that you don't think that would be an overly good way to do an esport.
I mean, if that is how Ashes esport functioned, all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server.
So yeah, I'm sticking by my one and only assumption that you don't want this.
I have been glad to read all your inputs on this. All interesting takes. It does seem that the future is unclear about this atm.
Yes the game itself will be PvX in the sense that PvE and PvP are integrated together, but how will the champion system work into this? It seems to be a really good balance. I can still hardly believe most of you are 1000% against this idea.
its not that the idea itself is bad. its just not a good fit for aoc specifically, unless you pretty much change how classes work.
aoc philosophy is to bring different types of players together and have them interact with each other (example, the crafting system, one person cant max and gather/refine/craft everything, like you can with other games, even other chars in your account will have limitations for this, sou have to interact and rely on others), and the idea of an arena where you don't even have to play the game to play that game mode, as good as it may be, simply goes into the opposite direction of ashes design philosophy.
let me give you an example. blue is the most liked color in the world, by men and women. men and women both prefer different colors, however, they have blue in common as their most preferred. if blue is the most preferred color in the world, why doesn't every (successful) fast food business use it in their brand to be more pleasing to the eyes of as many people as possible? why do they use red instead? makes no sense, right? wrong! there's a reason for that.
a better idea would be to make a different game (like aoc apocalypse) in the future that can be played as an equalized pvp arena using ashes same lore and classes (rebalanced). like riot made aram, TFT, legends of runeterra. they weren't there since the beginning and they appeal to different crowds.
Equalized, instanced PvP is great. Being able to play every different class/build without having to grind each one up individually saves time and lets players get right to the action. It doesn't have to be the only PvP mode, but it would be nice to have. It should also be rewarding for those who want to spend the majority of their time there. GW2 has a nice system that rewards leveling tomes, transmutation charges to reskin your gear, items, and liquid currency that you can use to level and kit your characters in other gamemodes where your equipment matters.
I started writing, thinking that GW2 rewards leveling tomes only in WvW which has restricted accessibility
- Free-to-play accounts will gain access to this panel account-wide once one character reaches level 60.
- Paid accounts may access this panel at level 31
I can still hardly believe most of you are 1000% against this idea.
AoC tries to be different from GW2 in most important aspects:
- the PvP is in the same play field with the PvE
- no community - In GW2 you can play solo and team up easily when you need for both PvE or PvP
- you cannot transport resources fast - in GW2 can teleport from a part of the map to another fast for a very low cost with an army of alts to farm resources
- there will be no cross server interaction
- you do not have a global auction house - in GW2 is even cross server
The forum is populated by people who want and hope that the AoC system will work, and offer the same experience we had in early MMOs.
GW2 system is designed to retain players and offers what players want, except encouraging community bonds because those bonds can cause population drop too: if one leaves, the rest might follow. In GW2 you do not have to cooperate long with other players. You team up with them until you finish the dungeon or complete the event and you do not see them again.
AoC tries to push players together into nodes to create micro communities who will fight on the same side, to protect caravans, to defend castles... Arenas work against this.
While there is hope to attract as many modern players as possible, the aim is to attract them into this system, not to change the system to create the modern mmo environment which also maximizes profit.
Now if that will work or not, depends on many things. Players changed, internet changed...
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Intrepid is open to the idea of Ashes esports as they stated that they will find the ability to support it in the case it develops. And, I can talk about it because it is interesting to me.
You make too many assumptions about what Ashes needs, what is best for Ashes, what I want, what I don't want, etc. etc. Read my previous posts if you want to know my thoughts on the topic. I've said my piece and have no interest in repeating myself further.
My only assumption as to what you do or do not want is that you do not want to queue up in order to get on to a regular server, to only then remove yourself from that regular server in order to play in the hypothetical esport arena, and then queue up again when you opt to leave said hypothetical esport arena.
if that is not true - if you would like to queue up in order to join a lobby based game - then more power to you. I personally think that it is a reasonable assumption to assume you wouldn't be in favor of queuing in order to participate in a lobby based game, and more to the point I think it is reasonable to assume that you don't think that would be an overly good way to do an esport.
I mean, if that is how Ashes esport functioned, all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server.
So yeah, I'm sticking by my one and only assumption that you don't want this.
I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. Too many assumptions and hypotheticals. And, why are you plotting ways in which you would be able to overload a specific server with players to prevent people from competing for several days? Lol? I am not going to waste my time responding to nonsensical rambling.
One assumption (you really don't want to have to queue to get on to an MMO server in order to then play in the esport arena) and one hypothetical (an esport arena existing).
As to being able to prevent players from competing, you had better believe that if Ashes is a well recieved MMO (a requirement for Intrepid to then add an esport activity), if that esport activity interrupts the MMO at all (by, say taking up population slots on servers, but without that population being present in the games open world), you had better believe MMO players will do everything they can to disrupt that esport. The potential to disrupt an esport competition by simply getting people to create a character on a specific server is well within the scope of the community of most MMO's.
Quite honestly, crashing the server is well within the scope of any MMO community (I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand).
Basically, if an esport were developed for Ashes in the manner you are suggesting, the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community
I mean, do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?
One assumption (you really don't want to have to queue to get on to an MMO server in order to then play in the esport arena) and one hypothetical (an esport arena existing).
As to being able to prevent players from competing, you had better believe that if Ashes is a well recieved MMO (a requirement for Intrepid to then add an esport activity), if that esport activity interrupts the MMO at all (by, say taking up population slots on servers, but without that population being present in the games open world), you had better believe MMO players will do everything they can to disrupt that esport. The potential to disrupt an esport competition by simply getting people to create a character on a specific server is well within the scope of the community of most MMO's.
Quite honestly, crashing the server is well within the scope of any MMO community (I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand).
Basically, if an esport were developed for Ashes in the manner you are suggesting, the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community
I mean, do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?
I have no interest in talking to someone who is willing to go out of their way to DDoS a game nor someone that assumes the "MMO community" is deranged enough to go out of their way to actively harm a game they play. DDoSing is also illegal. According to the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, an unauthorized DDoS attack can lead to up to 10 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. Conspiring to do so can lead to 5 years and $250,000.
You have yet to play an MMO where you haven't found ways to crash their servers on demand? What's wrong with you?
I have no interest in talking to someone who is willing to go out of their way to DDoS a game nor someone that assumes the "MMO community" is deranged enough to go out of their way to actively harm a game they play. DDoSing is also illegal. According to the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, an unauthorized DDoS attack can lead to up to 10 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. Conspiring to do so can lead to 5 years and $250,000.
You have yet to play an MMO where you haven't found ways to crash their servers on demand? What's wrong with you?
It's not even about ddosing. It's just about servers not keeping up with the demand. And that demand can be enforced by people going to a particular server. If people see that esports is coming in the way of the MMO part of the game - quite a lot of people will complain and might even do what Noaani suggests.
Now there's a little problem of "how would they know", but I guess that joining an arena queue (cause there'll always be one) and seeing how fast/slow you get a game would indicate how many people are playing the arena.
And under the assumption that those arenas are not cross-server, you'd know exactly which servers have the most arena players and you could then go to the forum or reddit or discord and write a scathing post of "why de fak can't I play the game because of these fackers?!" People might agree with you and start complaining on other threads and social mediums (which brings Intrepid bad pr) and might even go overload that server with their characters.
Overall I'd say the chance of that happening is fairly low, but the chance to destroy Intrepid's reputation is quite high. Amazon was SHIT ON for their queues and failing servers. If people figure out that there's a non-mmo mechanic in Ashes that effectively creates the same problem - Intrepid will get a ton of butthurt fans.
I have no interest in talking to someone who is willing to go out of their way to DDoS a game nor someone that assumes the "MMO community" is deranged enough to go out of their way to actively harm a game they play. DDoSing is also illegal. According to the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, an unauthorized DDoS attack can lead to up to 10 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. Conspiring to do so can lead to 5 years and $250,000.
Who said anything about a DDoS?
You have yet to play an MMO where you haven't found ways to crash their servers on demand? What's wrong with you?
When you play an MMO hard, when you push boundaries and are constantly asking "what happens if I do this?", you tend to crash servers.
I'm not sure why your mind went from "I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand" to DDoS attacks.
"all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server."
"I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand"
"do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?"
"the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community"
All of these can be taken as threats.
I do not play games with the intention of breaking the servers, because I would rather continue playing the game. And games have stress tests and player caps for that very reason.
I have no interest in talking to someone who is willing to go out of their way to DDoS a game nor someone that assumes the "MMO community" is deranged enough to go out of their way to actively harm a game they play. DDoSing is also illegal. According to the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, an unauthorized DDoS attack can lead to up to 10 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. Conspiring to do so can lead to 5 years and $250,000.
You have yet to play an MMO where you haven't found ways to crash their servers on demand? What's wrong with you?
It's not even about ddosing. It's just about servers not keeping up with the demand. And that demand can be enforced by people going to a particular server. If people see that esports is coming in the way of the MMO part of the game - quite a lot of people will complain and might even do what Noaani suggests.
Now there's a little problem of "how would they know", but I guess that joining an arena queue (cause there'll always be one) and seeing how fast/slow you get a game would indicate how many people are playing the arena.
And under the assumption that those arenas are not cross-server, you'd know exactly which servers have the most arena players and you could then go to the forum or reddit or discord and write a scathing post of "why de fak can't I play the game because of these fackers?!" People might agree with you and start complaining on other threads and social mediums (which brings Intrepid bad pr) and might even go overload that server with their characters.
Overall I'd say the chance of that happening is fairly low, but the chance to destroy Intrepid's reputation is quite high. Amazon was SHIT ON for their queues and failing servers. If people figure out that there's a non-mmo mechanic in Ashes that effectively creates the same problem - Intrepid will get a ton of butthurt fans.
Ashes arenas may support cross-server combat. If they do, then that solves that problem. I haven't seen any games with an esport confine their competitive scene to a single, non-region specific server.
Ashes arenas may support cross-server combat. If they do, then that solves that problem. I haven't seen any games with an esport confine their competitive scene to a single, non-region specific server.
This is just yet another issue and reason why most people here argue so much against your points. You come at this discussion from the pov of an esporter who's only thinking of how Ashes would/could/should implement esports into its design. While pretty much everyone else comes from the pov of mmo players who just want a good mmo and couldn't give fewer shits about esport arena battling.
The arena can only be cross-server if it provides gear or puts a cap on how high of a tier you can use. The former goes against the current Ashes design and the latter doesn't solve your issue of "I don't want to play the mmo for hundreds of hours before playing the arena".
In other words, as Noaani has already said several times, it would make much more sense to just have a separate client for the equalized arena battler and just tread it as an offshoot of the main game, rather than trying to turn the mmo into something that it's not supposed to be.
Ashes arenas may support cross-server combat. If they do, then that solves that problem. I haven't seen any games with an esport confine their competitive scene to a single, non-region specific server.
This is just yet another issue and reason why most people here argue so much against your points. You come at this discussion from the pov of an esporter who's only thinking of how Ashes would/could/should implement esports into its design. While pretty much everyone else comes from the pov of mmo players who just want a good mmo and couldn't give fewer shits about esport arena battling.
The arena can only be cross-server if it provides gear or puts a cap on how high of a tier you can use. The former goes against the current Ashes design and the latter doesn't solve your issue of "I don't want to play the mmo for hundreds of hours before playing the arena".
In other words, as Noaani has already said several times, it would make much more sense to just have a separate client for the equalized arena battler and just tread it as an offshoot of the main game, rather than trying to turn the mmo into something that it's not supposed to be.
The work I do is design-oriented in a highly competitive sector of the STEM field. When chasing ambitious goals, discovering and solving issues before they occur saves more time and money in the long run and yields better results. And, I'm quite good at it. So that's where my brain goes and what I like talking about.
Talking about what should, could, and would happen as a result of different courses of action is important when it comes to finding the best path to take. If you do not, then you limit yourself. There's nothing wrong with talking about how something could be done. Do you not plan? Do you not brainstorm? Do you just walk through life aimlessly letting the wind blow you around? And if you do not care about equalized arenas with potential esports, then let the people who are interested in reaching that potential talk about them.
If I play an MMO, I do not play it with the intention of joining a separate client for an arena battler. That defeats the purpose of playing the MMO in the first place, yet it is the solution that keeps being shoved down my throat. I've stated several times that having alternate progression systems tied to arenas and having the option to play other parts of the game while waiting in PvP ques are beneficial.
"all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server."
"I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand"
"do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?"
"the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community"
All of these can be taken as threats.
I do not play games with the intention of breaking the servers, because I would rather continue playing the game. And games have stress tests and player caps for that very reason.
Can be, but should not be.
"Breaker" hypotheticals are important for design of anything that is basically 'a competition between normal players and possibly psychopathic speedrunners'.
There's probably no reason to immediately take 'I would just overload the queue so you can't play' as a thing Noaani would specifically actually do.
But I bet you, like Noaani, know people who WOULD.
And if you do not care about equalized arenas with potential esports, then let the people who are interested in reaching that potential talk about them.
I care about them when they can influence the game I'm playing. And as has been explained before, they can and will influence the mmo itself, if implemented in the way that was suggested in this thread.
If I play an MMO, I do not play it with the intention of joining a separate client for an arena battler. That defeats the purpose of playing the MMO in the first place, yet it is the solution that keeps being shoved down my throat. I've stated several times that having alternate progression systems tied to arenas and having the option to play other parts of the game while waiting in PvP ques are beneficial.
And the suggestions of providing equalized gear or full level ups of alt chars to the max level go directly against "playing the mmo".
Also, how exactly do you imagine queuing for the arena while running around the open world? Can you get TPed to the arena while fighting a mob? While gathering a resource? While pvping another player? While crafting something? While riding a mount or a caravan? While playing a minigame in a tavern? And what of any results of you getting TPed out of those actions?
And as for the alternative ways to progress - that's already the case in the game. You can pvx (kill mobs with a chance of other playing fighting you for them), you can be an artisan (make money for gear and maybe lvl boosting), you can make money through interactions with caravans, you can be a mercenary, you can be a market mogul.
All of those methods range from 0 interactions with pvp or pve to 100% interaction with both, but all of them directly influence the MMO part of the game. In all of them you're a character in the world of the game who's interacting with the world around it and its inhabitants. And your resources come from that world and its inhabitants.
Instanced equalized arena progression method goes directly against all of those, especially in the case of alt characters that got leveled up and geared automatically. You're not interacting with the world, hell you don't even exist in it other than your server slot. Your rewards come from a quite highly abusable system. And you barely interact with other players outside of the few seconds/minutes of your fight. Oh and that's even if you fight other players rather than your friends who're helping you progress faster and better (you might not do this, but I know countless people who will). And, as has been stated before, all of that also requires its own separate balancing, which is just additional work for Intrepid.
And just to make it clear, I'm not against the arenas themselves. I love arenas and spent years trying to be #1 in my class on dozens of L2 servers. What I'm against is the proposed implementation of arenas into Ashes.
Yes you would get teleported out after everyone accepts the que. If you were in combat when this happens, after the arena you would return to the open world dead. If you were in combat with another player, they would be able to receive whatever benefit resulted from your death. If there were repair costs for damaged gear on death, you would have to pay those as well.
Also, if you do not like the ideas or solutions proposed, and I also do not like the solution you proposed of having a separate arena client. I would rather talk about what would suit your needs and my own without stepping on each others' toes.
Comments
What you said also reinforces my points.
I said, "Esports needs a large population and money to succeed."
You say, "Sponsors are not willing to put money in to esport for anything other than the most popular games."
How is that any different? I've been saying that Ashes esports is going to need A LOT OF SUPPORT if it even wants a chance at succeeding. The article confirms it!
I fear you have ended up in that place in an 'argument' where the only person who understands the purpose of your own point is yourself.
Ashes would have to do work to make eSports happen.
None of US necessarily want it to happen. None of us (as far as I can see) care if Intrepid wants it to happen or tries to make it happen.
Some of us aren't even sure that INTREPID wants to make it happen.
We're just not the Target Audience for your points in the first place, however well-presented your overall 'case' manages to be.
I don't have the stats, but I'm fairly sure that quite the majority of mmo twitch viewers would be in that 25-34 group, which is exactly the people I mentioned. And if Ashes becomes a good MMORPG , that audience will watch the game, boost its viewers on twitch which could then attract even more people to the game even outside of that TA. I'm fairly sure that's what happened to FF14 (outside of pure word of mouth).
If by some chance the final version of Ashes can support an esport scene within the game w/o completely ruining the game in the process, I'm sure that Steven will do good on his promise and support that scene. But forcing esports onto a game that's not meant for it doesn't bode well. Hell, forcing it onto a game that was literally made for it doesn't really work either. Iirc OW tried that shit and failed miserably. Pretty sure there were a few more examples too.
The bolded is what I have been saying the whole time. Esports does not just happen on its own and it needs specific things to succeed.
I've described what it needs, and everyone keeps responding with "oh but that's not what Intrepid is focusing on" or "we're not the target demographic" like ???
I know that! I'm not disagreeing!
But if the target demographic or design of the Ashes currently is not the same demographic or design of the game does matches the ones generally required for esports, then something has to change otherwise it's not going to work!
And that's NOT THE SAME as saying that I believe the target demographic or design of Ashes needs to change either!
Yes, good. We agree.
We don't want those things, generally, it seems, and therefore don't want Ashes to be an eSport.
Perhaps Steven did not know what eSports required back when he made that comment, and therefore did not know what needed to be considered or added to the game.
If you give Steven a 'list of requirements for making a good eSport', he can then go 'yes these sound good' or 'these sound bad for Ashes'.
Our feedback is 'these sound bad for Ashes'. Yours seems to be 'these sound good'.
EDIT: Actually for clarity MY feedback is 'I have no idea how you would manage half of this based on what we have seen so far and what you seemed to want but as a person who likes to poke at eSports I bet you CAN do it in a very specific way', but if I have to distill it down, particularly in the context of this thread, as a y/n 'feedback point', then I do in fact say 'n'.
And this is all I meant. I think others got off your train of thought a few stations ago.
Something has to change for Ashes to be an eSport.
Therefore Steven should take back any comments related to Ashes becoming an eSport, now that this new knowledge has been made available (namely the outcomes of the efforts of eSports organizers for the four years since he said it).
To me, that's what 'should' happen here. Steven should say 'I no longer have any interest in making Ashes an eSport due to the mismatch between the game's goals/demographic and those required for successful eSports'.
Yes thank you, the bolded is the core of what I've been trying to say. I just provided extra details as to what games need to be esports from my experiences and what I've learned over the years in the competitive scenes. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether Steven takes back the comment or not because I will play the game whether or not it ends up having esports. Though, I still think it would be cool if Ashes could pull it off somehow.
This reminds me of a frequent balance conundrum where people believe PvP should be balanced for either the high end or the low end of the skill spectrum. I always believed it was better to balance for both. High skill ceiling for the high end because that's where skill usage is optimized, but keep the floor low so that less skilled players can be effective as well.
If Intrepid were to put efforts into establishing Ashes arenas as an esport, the way I would want to do it is to figure out how to accommodate the needs/wants of more people while minimizing or eliminating any potential fallout into other gamemodes. If not, no problem. If they can, great.
Pretty much sums up my stance as well.
Intrepid do not intend to develop Ashes as an esport.
If Ashes turns out to be viable as an esport (as in, has teams with sponsors), they may support that.
Esport sponsors need a large audience in order to consider sponsoring.
Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game.
Ashes is a niche game within a niche section of a niche genre, and as such can expect a player count of around 500k 12 months after launch.
These facts, when added up, should inform anyone with an understanding of basically anything that Ashes is not a viable game for an actual esport scene. Since you are arguing for an esport scene in Ashes, you are obviously unaware of one or more of them - I am just trying to work out which fact from the above it is.
I think the main misconception is we thought you were saying that "ashes needs to change these things for the sake of Esports", not "If Ashes wants to do Esports, this is what needs to be done." Now that I think you seem to be saying the latter, yes I agree, those things would help ashes go down the path of Esports, but sadly I do not find the suggested path to be good for the games intended design as a whole, so Steven should indeed clarify for Esports players like yourself what his intentions of Ashes of Creations involvement in Esports actually is, if any at all at this point.
Yes, the bolded is exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you.
I agree with every single point you just listed. I've been getting frustrated trying to explain that repeatedly. Hence, why I kept saying, "your responses/evidence support my own" or "that's the exact point I was making."
I'm not trying to change the way Ashes is being designed, but rather just trying to:
I've been saying this whole time that IF Intrepid wants Ashes arenas to have esports, there are certain changes or ways they can do things to make that possibility more likely. I do NOT believe that esports is what they're focusing on, nor do I believe that they've expressed interest in wanting to go out of their way to make it happen. And I kept having to clarify that.
Edit: Actually "Esport teams need sponsors in order to consider playing a given game." is not entirely accurate. Competitive players will play and form teams in games that have a high potential to have competitive scenes.
Scouts and orgs come after, prefaced and/or followed by the actual "esports" part of it (tournaments, etc.). But if that potential is not there, they don't want to play the game just for fun, and they are looking to make a living as a competitive player, then they will likely play a different game that has that potential. That statement is more accurate if it refers to existing teams looking to migrate away from a lucrative, existing game with esports.
So, if we agree that Intrepid aren't interested in making Ashes an esport title, and we agree that sponsors wont put any money in to it to be an esport title, why are we talking about Ashes as an esport title?
In order for it to happen, one of those two groups needs to REALLY want it to happen, but neither of them actually do.
If you want to discuss a hypothetical as to what Intrepid need to do in order to turn Ashes in to a successful esport title if for some reason they had an actual about face and decided they really wanted to do that, then the thing you are missing is that the most important aspect of anything they could do is to not impact the MMO aspect of the game at all.
Since server population and player activity in the games open world is literally key to this game (Stevens words), the absolute first thing that would need to happen is make sure that players just wanting to play in the arena aren't counted towards any given servers population.
Basically, they need to segregate the esport arena population from the rest of the games population.
The thing is, YOU want this to happen, even though YOU are arguing against it. Sure, they could just make it so that you are removed from the server player count when joining the arena, and have the arena itself run on different hardware. The problem then is that with every major update to this game, there will be server queues. If you need to log in to the game in order to participate in the arena, you will need to wait in the queue. When you join the arena you are removed from the server population and someone else can log on to the server - but then when you leave the arena and go back to the open world game, you need to queue again.
Honestly, you don't want this. You want any potential arena or esport of any type to be entirely segregated from the rest of the game.
Once again, if we have an arena that has no inherent connection to the MMO world and doesn't require characters to level or gear up in the game world, we may as well be talking about a different game.
In other words, if you want to talk about Intrepid hypothetically attempting to get in to esport, the only real discussion is about them literally making an esport title after Ashes releases.
Nothing else makes sense, even to discuss hypothetically.
Intrepid is open to the idea of Ashes esports as they stated that they will find the ability to support it in the case it develops. And, I can talk about it because it is interesting to me.
You make too many assumptions about what Ashes needs, what is best for Ashes, what I want, what I don't want, etc. etc. Read my previous posts if you want to know my thoughts on the topic. I've said my piece and have no interest in repeating myself further.
My only assumption as to what you do or do not want is that you do not want to queue up in order to get on to a regular server, to only then remove yourself from that regular server in order to play in the hypothetical esport arena, and then queue up again when you opt to leave said hypothetical esport arena.
if that is not true - if you would like to queue up in order to join a lobby based game - then more power to you. I personally think that it is a reasonable assumption to assume you wouldn't be in favor of queuing in order to participate in a lobby based game, and more to the point I think it is reasonable to assume that you don't think that would be an overly good way to do an esport.
I mean, if that is how Ashes esport functioned, all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server.
So yeah, I'm sticking by my one and only assumption that you don't want this.
its not that the idea itself is bad. its just not a good fit for aoc specifically, unless you pretty much change how classes work.
aoc philosophy is to bring different types of players together and have them interact with each other (example, the crafting system, one person cant max and gather/refine/craft everything, like you can with other games, even other chars in your account will have limitations for this, sou have to interact and rely on others), and the idea of an arena where you don't even have to play the game to play that game mode, as good as it may be, simply goes into the opposite direction of ashes design philosophy.
let me give you an example. blue is the most liked color in the world, by men and women. men and women both prefer different colors, however, they have blue in common as their most preferred. if blue is the most preferred color in the world, why doesn't every (successful) fast food business use it in their brand to be more pleasing to the eyes of as many people as possible? why do they use red instead? makes no sense, right? wrong! there's a reason for that.
a better idea would be to make a different game (like aoc apocalypse) in the future that can be played as an equalized pvp arena using ashes same lore and classes (rebalanced). like riot made aram, TFT, legends of runeterra. they weren't there since the beginning and they appeal to different crowds.
I started writing, thinking that GW2 rewards leveling tomes only in WvW which has restricted accessibility https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World
But I see that arenas reward levels too
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Large_Rank-Up_Chest
Anyway...
AoC tries to be different from GW2 in most important aspects:
- the PvP is in the same play field with the PvE
- no community - In GW2 you can play solo and team up easily when you need for both PvE or PvP
- you cannot transport resources fast - in GW2 can teleport from a part of the map to another fast for a very low cost with an army of alts to farm resources
- there will be no cross server interaction
- you do not have a global auction house - in GW2 is even cross server
The forum is populated by people who want and hope that the AoC system will work, and offer the same experience we had in early MMOs.
GW2 system is designed to retain players and offers what players want, except encouraging community bonds because those bonds can cause population drop too: if one leaves, the rest might follow. In GW2 you do not have to cooperate long with other players. You team up with them until you finish the dungeon or complete the event and you do not see them again.
AoC tries to push players together into nodes to create micro communities who will fight on the same side, to protect caravans, to defend castles... Arenas work against this.
While there is hope to attract as many modern players as possible, the aim is to attract them into this system, not to change the system to create the modern mmo environment which also maximizes profit.
Now if that will work or not, depends on many things. Players changed, internet changed...
I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. Too many assumptions and hypotheticals. And, why are you plotting ways in which you would be able to overload a specific server with players to prevent people from competing for several days? Lol? I am not going to waste my time responding to nonsensical rambling.
One assumption (you really don't want to have to queue to get on to an MMO server in order to then play in the esport arena) and one hypothetical (an esport arena existing).
As to being able to prevent players from competing, you had better believe that if Ashes is a well recieved MMO (a requirement for Intrepid to then add an esport activity), if that esport activity interrupts the MMO at all (by, say taking up population slots on servers, but without that population being present in the games open world), you had better believe MMO players will do everything they can to disrupt that esport. The potential to disrupt an esport competition by simply getting people to create a character on a specific server is well within the scope of the community of most MMO's.
Quite honestly, crashing the server is well within the scope of any MMO community (I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand).
Basically, if an esport were developed for Ashes in the manner you are suggesting, the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community
I mean, do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?
I have no interest in talking to someone who is willing to go out of their way to DDoS a game nor someone that assumes the "MMO community" is deranged enough to go out of their way to actively harm a game they play. DDoSing is also illegal. According to the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, an unauthorized DDoS attack can lead to up to 10 years in prison and a $500,000 fine. Conspiring to do so can lead to 5 years and $250,000.
You have yet to play an MMO where you haven't found ways to crash their servers on demand? What's wrong with you?
Now there's a little problem of "how would they know", but I guess that joining an arena queue (cause there'll always be one) and seeing how fast/slow you get a game would indicate how many people are playing the arena.
And under the assumption that those arenas are not cross-server, you'd know exactly which servers have the most arena players and you could then go to the forum or reddit or discord and write a scathing post of "why de fak can't I play the game because of these fackers?!" People might agree with you and start complaining on other threads and social mediums (which brings Intrepid bad pr) and might even go overload that server with their characters.
Overall I'd say the chance of that happening is fairly low, but the chance to destroy Intrepid's reputation is quite high. Amazon was SHIT ON for their queues and failing servers. If people figure out that there's a non-mmo mechanic in Ashes that effectively creates the same problem - Intrepid will get a ton of butthurt fans.
I'm not sure why your mind went from "I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand" to DDoS attacks.
It sounds like malicious intent when you say:
- "all I would need to do to make it so you couldn't compete in a given competition is overload your server with players, generating a several hour long (or several day long) queue for your server."
- "I've yet to play an MMO I haven't found a way to crash the server on demand"
- "do you think an MMO community is going to embrace an esport community that is disrupting their MMO?"
- "the MMO population would do everything in their power to disrupt it - and there is a lot that is within the power of any given MMO community"
All of these can be taken as threats.I do not play games with the intention of breaking the servers, because I would rather continue playing the game. And games have stress tests and player caps for that very reason.
Ashes arenas may support cross-server combat. If they do, then that solves that problem. I haven't seen any games with an esport confine their competitive scene to a single, non-region specific server.
The arena can only be cross-server if it provides gear or puts a cap on how high of a tier you can use. The former goes against the current Ashes design and the latter doesn't solve your issue of "I don't want to play the mmo for hundreds of hours before playing the arena".
In other words, as Noaani has already said several times, it would make much more sense to just have a separate client for the equalized arena battler and just tread it as an offshoot of the main game, rather than trying to turn the mmo into something that it's not supposed to be.
The work I do is design-oriented in a highly competitive sector of the STEM field. When chasing ambitious goals, discovering and solving issues before they occur saves more time and money in the long run and yields better results. And, I'm quite good at it. So that's where my brain goes and what I like talking about.
Talking about what should, could, and would happen as a result of different courses of action is important when it comes to finding the best path to take. If you do not, then you limit yourself. There's nothing wrong with talking about how something could be done. Do you not plan? Do you not brainstorm? Do you just walk through life aimlessly letting the wind blow you around? And if you do not care about equalized arenas with potential esports, then let the people who are interested in reaching that potential talk about them.
If I play an MMO, I do not play it with the intention of joining a separate client for an arena battler. That defeats the purpose of playing the MMO in the first place, yet it is the solution that keeps being shoved down my throat. I've stated several times that having alternate progression systems tied to arenas and having the option to play other parts of the game while waiting in PvP ques are beneficial.
Can be, but should not be.
"Breaker" hypotheticals are important for design of anything that is basically 'a competition between normal players and possibly psychopathic speedrunners'.
There's probably no reason to immediately take 'I would just overload the queue so you can't play' as a thing Noaani would specifically actually do.
But I bet you, like Noaani, know people who WOULD.
Also, how exactly do you imagine queuing for the arena while running around the open world? Can you get TPed to the arena while fighting a mob? While gathering a resource? While pvping another player? While crafting something? While riding a mount or a caravan? While playing a minigame in a tavern? And what of any results of you getting TPed out of those actions?
And as for the alternative ways to progress - that's already the case in the game. You can pvx (kill mobs with a chance of other playing fighting you for them), you can be an artisan (make money for gear and maybe lvl boosting), you can make money through interactions with caravans, you can be a mercenary, you can be a market mogul.
All of those methods range from 0 interactions with pvp or pve to 100% interaction with both, but all of them directly influence the MMO part of the game. In all of them you're a character in the world of the game who's interacting with the world around it and its inhabitants. And your resources come from that world and its inhabitants.
Instanced equalized arena progression method goes directly against all of those, especially in the case of alt characters that got leveled up and geared automatically. You're not interacting with the world, hell you don't even exist in it other than your server slot. Your rewards come from a quite highly abusable system. And you barely interact with other players outside of the few seconds/minutes of your fight. Oh and that's even if you fight other players rather than your friends who're helping you progress faster and better (you might not do this, but I know countless people who will). And, as has been stated before, all of that also requires its own separate balancing, which is just additional work for Intrepid.
And just to make it clear, I'm not against the arenas themselves. I love arenas and spent years trying to be #1 in my class on dozens of L2 servers. What I'm against is the proposed implementation of arenas into Ashes.
Yes you would get teleported out after everyone accepts the que. If you were in combat when this happens, after the arena you would return to the open world dead. If you were in combat with another player, they would be able to receive whatever benefit resulted from your death. If there were repair costs for damaged gear on death, you would have to pay those as well.
Also, if you do not like the ideas or solutions proposed, and I also do not like the solution you proposed of having a separate arena client. I would rather talk about what would suit your needs and my own without stepping on each others' toes.