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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Non-tank player feedback:
- Enjoys having to play a role with threat in mind and working with tanks, so threat management is considered and choreographed with active tanks throughout the fight
- Enjoys threat as something to consider during fight, as abilities become more dynamic instead of just mashing the same few buttons as mindless gameplay
- If there could be a support class / ability, that can alleviate generated threat from non-tank roles, that would add an exciting layer to non-tank class responsibilities considering threat mitigation
- If mobs / bosses in PvE scenarios could have abilities that intentionally target non-tanks, it would make for more emergent gameplay for non-tank roles in the party
- Having a HARD cooldown for summons that may have threat generation in some form would create an experience of risk v. reward of “should i bring my summon into this fight?”
- As a cleric, it’s a great concern to manage if one or a few abilities have the potential to “rip threat off the tank”- a Revive ability for example (something that would logically “upset” the enemy)
- Possibly a rogue / mage that can “mask” party members who are ripping threat from the tank role would be enjoyable -or- a bard that can “woo” the enemy away from a vulnerable non-tank player
- DPS / Threat meters, as they are currently implemented, can take away from dynamic and involved gameplay, and can become a discussion more about “metrics and performance” rather than finding varied values of different group compositions
- Hopefully threat management is worth acknowledging but isn’t too difficult to accomplish, so that optional strategies can be experimented with
Tank player feedback:
- Enjoys the concept of threat management, especially with abilities that allow you to spread threat to an off tank in necessary situations. It is a good experience to know when / how to use abilities that boost the tank’s threat, instead of just “being there / absorbing damage (meat shield)”. Enjoys having an active / dynamic role in combat. Gives a more interesting sense of purpose in gameplay to the tank role
- Enjoys passive threat gaining abilities / gear, instead of ONLY concerning the tank role with creating enough DPS to retain threat
- Dynamic threat generation is a better experience through skill timing and management, letting the tank player’s hands “dance” on the keyboard, instead of just “stomping” the same ability rotation
- Having interesting single pull / threat generating abilities (and not just a “yell” or “taunt”) is preferable
- In PvP scenarios, giving tanks options / abilities that may not generate threat, but gives enemies a necessary reason to focus the tank down (AoE damage mitigation or knockbacks, for instance)
- An ability that can pull threat off of a dps / support player(s) is valuable for keeping the tank player actively paying attention during a fight
- Having to manage threat throughout the fight is preferable than just pulling in the beginning and “not worrying about threat” afterwards
- It is difficult to create a game that doesn’t have a “meta” composition of a primary tank build or party composition, and having various ways to complete tasks / face new challenges adds a level of depth to consider “can we accomplish this with what we’ve got?”
The coin is a rite of passage. SO BE IT.
Yes, I think its a nice submechanic in combat to have a tank. It also makes sense to me from an "epic battle" drama perspective of a specialized unit holding the big enemy at bay for his companions to take out the minions and then join him. Being able to take mitigate damage for group members, buffing them and leading the party are a unique challenge.
With that being said - while damage mitigation has been the main focus for tanks, I came to believe that their utility could be increased while also providing a "logical" reason why they are perceived (by real world standards so to speak) as the biggest primary threat these bosses should focus on: Armor breaking. I could imagine tanks to have a unique mechanic that the more of their skills they use on a single target the more a "break" counter ticks up. Once it reaches a certain point, it will trigger a 3-5 min (or permanent) debuff on the target that reduces their physical or magical resistance, increases the duration of crowd control, makes the target vulnerable against a specific damage type and/or suppresses healing and buff effects, which would for example be interesting mechanics for siege type PvP as well. If tanks were to gain greater CC duration and/or efficacy against targets who turn their backs to them that could also increase the reasons why to either avoid tanks from the very beginning or take them down first.
It would make sense to try and take down targets that create such "breaches" in the defense, despite them being so resilient. With some solid secondary defense to prevent large scale breaches (e.g. by terrain modification spells of magicians) it could leave the other side stuck with focusing down the tank first.
I realize that PvP will always function a little bit different from PvE but these are at least some mechanics that could provide a stronger narrative for why a tank is being focused by enemies. And if especially elite and boss monsters had skills to kill targets with high defenses, it would also make sense for them to "think" they can take down the tank.
For non-tanking players, are you fond of having to play your role with threat in mind?
Yes. It's much fun to just dish out damage, sidestep some skills from time to time and go back to mashing buttons. That just sounds like an aggressive version of Dance Dance Revolution to me.
I think without the threat of pulling aggro a lot of what is class identity disappears. In some cases I'd even argue that it might even make sense to amp it up a bit more.
Example: The group is fighting a huge fire Golem, which has an aura that damage targets in melee range substantially, so that basically only the tank can endure it. I would love to see multiple solutions to this. One could be have the tank stack fire resistance so he can prevail and have everyone else go range. Or have all melees gather up fire resistance sets to attack even though this may reduce their dmg in exchange for all the resistance. Another option (where threat/aggro comes into play) could be have three magic classes with at least 1 mage cast an ritual type ice spell that extinguishes the fire aura so that melee group members can move in - however since this is such a huge change it would make the three magicians have immediate threat priority so the tank has to time his abilities to get it back.
My point is: Threat mechanics throughout a fight are more than just an excuse for the existence of tanks, they provide a great reason to get familiar with an enemies fighting patterns and they can be the basis for very interesting boss mechanics while challenging players to also time their abilities more mindfully - which in turn is basically something they have to inevitably learn for PvP anyways, so why not have them use this also in PvE?
i would prefer that where ever start first gets threat first so if an glass cannon think he can solo start some big bosses (in an Raid or so) he would simply die ( and boss resets) if i wouldn't heal him and get heal thread imedeatly and have to struggle and also the Tank by trying to get the boss under control.
But otherwise if i help out little ones (as healer) i would prefer to hold the tread because i have bedder Equippment.
So if you use the Classic Trinidy system (Tank/Healer/DD) i would prefer threat mechanics that Skills of the Tank class build up in there normal rotation (Passiv). so you don't need extra tread skills that are useless in PVP and if high frequendly used (just tread no damage) boring in PVE. and If DD have some strong skills that needed to cast some time they need a static tank, not an range DD (like Bow or wisard) that pulles the boss through the whole area and no one can do big damage. Also in Big Raids are more than one tank usually useless if they just traunt and didn't do any damage.
BUT in Blade and Soul (at release) there was no healing class and also no tank with Tread, everyone was some sort of DD and the strongest gets the most tread (or some bosses have a special tread mechanic like attacks on the player that wasn't close to the boss himself).
This also was fun and that was something new ( at least for me)
So every class could get some def skills ( thet Block/ Parry or evade the next damage) and 1-2 with thread so you can use this for some Boss mechanics (like Tank is frosen solid or debuff that damages the whole party if tread target move so someone other have to taunt away the boss to an new position. This opens some wild Dungeon mechanics and wouldn't be as many other MMO would do. an other Boss mehanic could be to not use taunts/tread skills because bosses go enraged if the tread from payers/partys go bejond an limit. So this way you could use this to whipe out an enemy party in an dungeon.
Also Heal classes usually use heal skilles rarly while leveling up and are not used to there support skills later on(because he have to be and DD not an supporter). so maybe there have to be some solo missions where the NPC just do the Quest and traunts eveything but Die if not healed enough by the cleric.
TLTR:
Clasical Tank= clasical taunt, but i would like to see some more creative way
I propose a simple threat indicator bar under player's own health bar when they're engaged in combat with an NPC mob. This simple threat indicator bar under the player's health bar could give the player a measure of their current threat level for the mob they're targeting. This bar indicates the ratio of the threat level of the player versus the threat level of the targeted mob's current target. This bar would fill up gradually if the player is not the current target of the mob when the player is excessively accumulating mob threat (compared to the tank). When this bar is completely full, the mob is expected to switch its target to the player. This way all players targeting the same mob can keep an eye on their threat level and manage their damage or healing accordingly. The tank also has a better assessment of how soon they can regain the attention of the mob if they lose their threat.
It is possible that this mechanic may be too taxing for the client as the client would need a threat measure for every mob being targeted and the indicator needs a comparison of the player's threat levels for the mob being targeted with the current target of the mob. If its the case that an alternative simpler indicator is preferred for less load on the client, an alternative indicator shows the measure of how much threat the current target of a mob has with respect to the nearest next threat via adding a threat indicator bar only for the target of player's target. This indicator would give players a measure of how close a tank is to losing its threat on the mob player is targeting.
TLDR first (kinda)
The idea is that the tank gets initiation aggro, but at some point is likely to lose aggro unless he's a threat god and DPS are meh. On aggro switch, the new target (likely the top DPS, but some randomness is good IMO) has to use defensives stay alive, lower threat and get healed, while the tank gains threat back. If aggro switch happens at a bad time, the tank has snap-aggro option(s) on longer cooldowns.
How to do that
Taunt that forces the mob to attack you for a certain period of time, but that time is a good bit shorter than the cooldown. This single target taunt doesn't automatically move the tank to the top of the threat list (keep reading, there's a plan for this). This can be used reactively or to guarantee threat during burst
Long cooldown (1-3 minutes) on AE taunt. Possibly have this move the tank to the top of the threat list.
Mob debuff that reduces damage taken by anyone other than the caster (tank). If the mob attacks others when it has this debuff, the tank gets bonus threat. Also longer cooldown than duration.
Perma-buff the tank can cast on one other person that moves some of that player's threat to the tank. Usually for the healer.
Aggro increasing stance that lowers overall damage and provides mitigation. But also for the tank, going full mitigation needs to not be the best road all the time. DPS-based threat (multiplied by stance) provides that.
In general, group content that is easier with a tank and off-tank more often than not. Give at least some classes with the tank secondary the ability to offtank. Offtank here means tank a boss for 10-20 seconds or tank adds.
When the top aggro holder gets surpassed, don't necessarily have the mob attack the new top aggro holder. Rather, have it pick from the top 25-50% of players on the aggro list according to some aggro-rank-weighted formula. Then, more rules about how aggro switches happen.
On the DPS side, defensive moves that include detaunt. IE, dodge rolling away from attacks includes lowering of threat. Defensive buffs ala Barkskin also lower your threat or debuffs that lower damage done to you while lowering your threat: Cower/Don't Hit Me type stuff. Used proactively (lowering DPS and threat) or reactively (just when needed)
Absolutely! Threat management should be a part of everyone's job in combat, but especially tanks. You don't do a lot of damage as a tank, so your buttons should center around making things angry and locking them down. Or moving them, on occasion.
There should be a constant worry about threat, though the tank should be able to hold it relatively easy, if they are using threat-generating skills. shifting focus to other enemies or other tasks should not reduce tank threat too quickly for them to maintain it, but they should have a sense of urgency to get back on task as soon as possible.
Q: Would you prefer threat mechanics to be a part of combat initiation, or throughout the entire duration of combat?
As hinted in my response above, it should be a part of the entire fight. Beginning to end.
Tank has a few jobs that keep them active and engaged with the fight:
Maintain threat at all times
Maintain proper positioning of the boss
Interrupt as needed
Pick up adds as needed
Protect the healer(s) as needed
If you remove the need to maintain threat, that eliminates one of two constant duties.
That said, it would be nice to see some interesting methods of tank interaction throughout the fight. Tank swaps, repositioning needed, threat table wipes, some fights where healing or dps generates an abnormal amount of threat, periods where no threat can be generated and the tank must get creative in how to protect the party, changing environments that require shifting strategies that might reduce the threat a tank can put out for a window of time, etc.
I'd like to say that this is my favorite type of this mechanic because it's simple, it's very easy to understand, and it has a LOT of fair options for all types of tanking styles to deal with.
Specifically just 'have short periods where minimal/no threat is generated'. This can be 'can't be generated by anyone'. It can be really telegraphed. It can 'freeze the threat values for a bit'.
There's a LOT of things that players can do to adapt to this style of situation without it just being 'okay this happened so I do this now'. A DPS happens to be the target when this begins? No problem, the Healer can burst heal them without worrying. Healer themselves was target? Tank can save their positional protection for that moment, Healers can also just heal themselves more without worrying about it.
Can still CC the boss, or even go for big damage things if you are willing to risk the timing. But the point is that it's really OBVIOUS, it's easy to communicate to players unfamiliar with the boss and have them still strategize, and it retains people's style.
That being said the main reason I do not enjoy the tanking role in MMOs is because of threat mechanics. In single player RPGs I love embodying the brutal knight fantasy archetype of a warrior that can wade into battle outlasting opponents through grit and determination. However, it's not my fantasy to be the chunk upfront shouting until I'm punched in the face. So I typically default to a support role.
I don't really enjoy playing any that role with threat in mind, but I've lived with it in games as an acceptable sacrifice to the greater fun of the game. To me, threat seems like a technical limitation to npc tactics rather than an interesting mechanic, and I described some thoughts on tanking mechanics in general in the previous dev discussion: Here.
En PvE , nous serons tous d'accord pour dire que le rôle du tank est de concentrer les dégâts du "boss/monstre" sur lui.
Ce qui diffère c'est la méthode : je suis de la vielle école et je préfère générer la haine à l'ancienne c'est à dire en chier pour garder l'aggro et que mon groupe/raid gère aussi leur inimitié c'est comme ça que l'on reconnait les bons joueurs. ( on les surnommait "les glues" pour les tanks qui ne perdait jamais l'aggro )
Je vais prendre en exemple un vieux jeu basé sur le PVE qui est FFXI, où dans ce jeu il existait avant que je n'arrête types de tank principaux : paladin ou ninja, l'un avec un style de jeu basé sur defense et heal et le second basé sur des compétences d'ombres ( "invulnérabilité" ) et d'esquive. Je ne vais pas vous expliquer ce jeu mais dans les raids ne retrouvions tout le temps le même setup c'est à dire 2 tank (pld/nin ) et pour les aider dans leurs luttes de course à la haine, ils pouvaient compter sur des DPS voleur ou sub voleur car ils possédaient une compétence ( Trick Attack ) qui une fois que vous l'avez activée transfère toute l' inimitié de vos dégâts à la personne qui se trouve entre vous et la cible ( cela fonctionne que pour les CaC ).
J'ai trouvé ce détail intéressant.
Pour le PvP : le rôle d'un tank est diffèrent bien entendu il est plus dans le soutien, il ne faut pas qu'il soit inutile, souvent ils possèdent un éventail de CC avec le grappin mais là où ils doivent exceller c'est dans la protection de leurs mates ou dans le "pulling" avec grappe et sa rota de CC et l'assistance de ses alliés.
Dans Aion il existe ou existait ( cela fait un moment que j'ai quitté ce jeu ) une compétence "garde du corps" et dans FFXI une compétence "couvrir" où vous prenez les dégâts à la place de votre mate. ( pour "couvrir" il fallait être entre votre mate et l'ennemi pour que cela fonctionne ).
Là où je ne suis et serais jamais d'accord avec certains/certaines, un tank ne doit pas faire de dégâts ou si il possède des dégâts cela serait au sacrifice de sa défense mais il faut que cela soit vraiment marquant et que le tank soit vraiment vulnérable. ( un exemple souvent que j'ai retrouvé dans plusieurs MMOs est le skill "berserk" souvent qui augmente ton attaque mais réduit ta défense.)
Il existe plusieurs types de tanks, les archétypes que j'ai rencontré le plus souvent ce sont les tank/heal ( paladin ) et les tanks esquives/ombres ( ninja ffxi/guerrier tera ). Après il y a aussi des tank/DpS mais vous connaissez mon avis sur ce type de classe.
En conclusion, si vous voulez garder cette trinité (tank/DPS/heal ), ce n'est pas parce qu'un jeu s'oriente sur du PvP de masse que cela doit changer les fondamentaux. Comme tout les amoureux de jeu vidéo, on a vu des jeux où des tanks faisaient autant de DPS que ses mates DPS, qu'un healeur résistait presque autant que le tank et certaines classes de soutien soignaient presque autant que la classe heal.
Cordialement un fan de jeux vidéo.
I don't mind having a few taunts but with long cooldowns. I also don't mind having all of my attacks have higher passive aggro generation. I'd prefer to focus more on CC than maintaining aggro.
If I could have exactly what I want:
-Taunt applied at beginning of combat and sparingly throughout
-Smaller number of abilities that apply taunt/longer taunt windows
---Some AOE/some Single Target.
-Ability to Purge aggro and pass off "baton" to an off-tank
-More moments like Bone Saw vs Spiderman. "You're going nowhere. I've got you for three minutes. Three minutes, of play-time."
Since not many are writing about it, the design issue with threat is that it comes as an alternative to actual mechanics many times. I would prefer the mobs actually do interesting spells and special abilities that make it harder for the players. Threat can be a part of it but it shouldn't be the number 1 mechanic that players are concerned with in combat.
A tank would have to be proactive in dealing with these three tables. The tank might have threat but the big damage dealers might have hatred and the healers might have irritation. It would be cool if the tank and parties have to be proactive and responsive in the pve environments. These three tables can also be used in PvP with different applications.
Taunt abilities should just force the target to attack you, be it NPCs or players (yes, players too), for a short period of time and then the player or NPC should able to continue their regular movements. It is just important that diminishing returns be factor in all this.
I'm fine with the tank class/specs just having a threat multiplier on their abilities but still enough damage to make them viable in PvP, a key factor being a lot of CC.
I often found that if I dps'd solo from 100% to 99% boss health I would generate enough threat for the dps to nuke for the rest of the fight. I'd rather not have constant threat generation or guaranteed taunts for these reasons. Not all foes should take a taunt, goad or irritate all the time. It comes down to mentality and the specific disposition of a target.
This kind of active "tanking" would also translate better into PvP instead of having useless taunts. PvP is more dynamic because the enemy knows to target the squishy targets first. If they had to at least work through a tank to get to the squishy, that would make the tanks more important in PvP groups.
For non-tanking players, are you fond of having to play your role with threat in mind?
Yes, for sure. it adds another layer of complexity to the challenge of fighting mobs. smart healing and dps vs just spamming buttons.
it's also cool when the devs design fights around pulling or swapping threat. Makes the boss even more of a challenge.
not having threat sounds like unmanaged chaos to me...but I'd be interested in trying a new mechanic if there was one.
I know there is no easy solution or else someone would have already done it, but if there is a way of having enemy AI respond and pursue not only so called tanks but healers and DPS character despite the tanks best efforts in a balanced way would make for more dynamic and fun combat. Again sorry, I've just pointed out my issue without providing a solution.
I do believe breaking the trinity or evolving it would be awesome! .
I would prefer the Tank have a dedicated tool and skill set in regards to mob focus/attention and damage mitigation for the player and group. I would like to Believe mob AI will be a bit smarter than "just target the most big number metric"
Let the tank be more dynamic and have more presence than just a whack pole with a bigger health pool headbutting a crotch blaming the healers...
Shouts/commands/rallies/areas of resolve/guarding...'party damage recieved reduction on successful block' buffs....and things of that ilk.
Give the tank a reason to be upfront on the battle line taking the hits the better the tank is the more the group can benefit beyond just damage mitigation .
So to answer some element of the original question...yes what ever the Tank does it should be carried through the entire battle engagement.
I liked classic wow's threat system more than any other. More damage equals more threat. With a few abilities that are more for threat generation.
I like standing between the raid group and the boss, not spinning the boss around so it shoots stuff away from the group. More how Reinhard works in overwatch. That is optimal tanking.
I really really liked being able to go from full tank build (full prot) to a semi tank dps hybrid (fury prot) that makes me squishy (need 2 full dedicated healers spam casting max rank heal), do more damage and produce stupid amounts of threat while also topping the dps meter, and making it literally impossible for anyone to pull agro unless they taunt.
I really like being able to do hybrids. Paladin (healer plus tank), Pudge (tank + dps). Hybrids need to be viable for different reasons. Like if you want to speedrun, using a paladin instead of both a tank and healer, worse at both but it doesn't matter cause you have 4 dps and burn everything before you can die.
Tank swaps are good.
Tanks being in charge of how the fights operate is good.
Being on par with dps in pvp is important. But also being able to solo hold flags/ capture points until help arrives also is important.
Different tanks having different purposes makes them interesting. Some are better for mobility, taking large hits, taking many small hits, having a larger block area (reinhard vs dva), some are better for healing the damage they get some are better for mitigating etc.
If you make a threat system It needs to be obvious about when you are going to pull threat. I like nameplates going from green yellow red, but a chart with a bar showing the exact number for each party member mechanically works better.
Aoe threat using single target abilities makes pulling the boss faster, or having a faster acceleration for tanks than dps will let dps start attacking faster. No one wants to wait for the tank to get threat.
Good job on everything
I would love to see something akin to D&D's Attack of Oppertunity implemented, where a tank gets a huge bonus to either to-hit or damage when attacking a mob disengaging (or moving out of the tanks threat-range).
As such, positioning and distance to the target would be vital for good tanking.
Hitting a disengaging mob with a specific ability could yield a very large bonus threat, "snapping" them back, or incurring highly detrimental debuffs to the target.
Threat management should be built into the tanks toolkit, and correct play should be rewarding.
Correct play could be timing a shield bash to interrupt spell casting.
A good tank should make it easier to DPS (by unlocking a full dps potential).
A good DPS should make it easier to tank (by reducing agro).
A godo tank should make it easier to heal (by mitigating damage by applying defensive skills at the right time).
A good healer should make it easier to tank (by removing detrimental debuffs in timely fashion).
Mob facing and positioning should be a vital role of tanking mechanics.
Taking control away from the player is not fun (stun, fear, mind control and similar effects).
Blind, slow, root and disarm are all interessting effects to manage/work around.
Threat reset (timed or random) is anoying and not fun.
Other vaugely related comments:
Forcing players to move out of specific areas (burning ground, aka dont stand in fire) have been used excessively in past MMO's, and should be used selectively.
Edit: defensive Stance reduces damage and crit, frenzy Stance reduces defence and block.
Second edit: defense Stance also boosts evasion whilst frenzy Stance decreases evasion.
- tanking being an actual skill not just pressing ability and soaking hits;
- tanking being combination of both damage + threat application;
- opens abilities to make raid encounters more interesting;
- "tanking" or holding threat of the boss could be made in the way where tank itself is not needed. rather having a class with evasion skills and threat amplification/application skills(augments) could be used as a tank.
Yes Please! . Traveling guild needs local node player for information about boss mechanics.Much more coordination and communication in the group. Diversity in fights.
However it depends on the design:
Visuable and / or audioable should be indicate what the boss does in the next 5 sec.
Possible Mechanics:
-boss target a specific player. dps or heal -> tank needs to move in front of the player to take the threat and damage (if monster collides with players like players collide with each other)
-at a certain time (for example boss stamp with foot) a certain skill using (example throwing axe) to get the threat
Office Hours Threat Talk, there was a suggestion that the boss reacts to the tactic of the raid members.:
Would be nice. a litle example could be:
if the group *laugh* (emote) at the boss, it gets depressed and gets a debuff or somethng else?
=> you don't need taunt abilities. so you can eliminate them of the game
The beauty of defensive Stance and Frenzy Stance relates to periods where more damage can be utilised. I'm not too concerned with the mitigation the devs have created and evasion builds would have to be tested.
I am concerned with the pvx nature of each class and the ability for the tank to operate in all spheres of combat - not just pve. I believe the stances will work perfectly with the hybrid combat system. Though, I do like your ideas and hope an amalgamation can be created between action combat and tab combat.
I'm rather conflicted on whether to become a tank or a cleric atm. I'm always one or the other. I've never been dps. Perhaps I will make a tank and a healer or perhaps a2 will sort out my desires.
Edit: not sure if the brewmaster monk style is classified as 'Control' I realise we can already make a 'control' tank.
Second edit: it would be exceptional if the base tank functions like the brewmaster Monk. That way the tank options of evasion, control, mitigation and shield can all have a solid threat/damage mitigation basis to expand from.
Third edit: thus, with the brewmaster monk functions, threat can be bolstered with higher dots on the tank, wait too long and be killed, wait the right amount of time and be rewarded. Damage dealt by the tank can also stack with the dot stacks. Perfect risk/reward.
I've tried to amalgamate all of my tanking experience into the base archetype. Even if the threat table is singular and not threat, hatred and irritation. I feel the building blocks will create the perfect pvx tank base. Not clear yet if the tank will have taunt, Goad and Irritate at all. I still would prefer non guaranteed threat generation to keep tanks on the toes.
I feel the damage would make a tank an exceptional threat in pvp. Perhaps even being second or third target after cleric and bard. Normally tanks are left until last in pvp or are forced to hold flags/victory points. I feel the hybrid combat would be elevated with these various threat and damage aspects.
I'm all for alternative "tanks". Building evasion rather than mitigation can make for great fun. Mitigation may be more consistent, but evasion can be even better with the risk of taking big hits if you fail to evade.
You might as well say you want PvE super easy.
Little thought here really...