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Dev Discussion #47 - Tanking: Threat Mitigation

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  • AruganArugan Member, Alpha One
    @Stalwart and @Azherae after reading both your threads this is my opinion on it.

    My Back Ground:
    - I usually Main Tank in MMORPG(WoW, NW, SWTOR etc.) or MOBAS(Smite, LOL etc.)
    - On occasion, I do go DPS for my Alt.
    - I do both PvP and PvE but primarily PvP is my thing.

    My Opinion on your Threads
    With my background in mind and the threads. I align more with @Stalwart
    DPS Should Focus on doing DPS..... Doing as much damage as possible.
    - As a tank I want the DPS to do his best to do more dmg. I don't want him to change up his moves/abilities to reduce dmg. Also I don't want him to spend money on potions to reduce anything. If anything I rather the dps main focus is to increase dmg whatever it takes dps focus is to increase dmg. So that means buy or getting gear. Staying out of AOE dmg and not dying. Using the best dmg combo skills. Etc.
    -As a DPS. It was annoying changing/re-spec because Tank can't hold agro from me doing my job of trying to do as much dps as possible. Or if I am pvping which means I am going full dmg. Now I have to re-spec or change my moves since full dmg is too much?.... That is not fun, that is a hassle in my opinion.

    Tank main focus should be a Tank.... Staying alive and being Tanky!
    - As a Tank, my main focus is to stay alive. So I think the mechanics should be focused on that. Abilities that keep me alive also generate threat. If a Block is properly used at the right time. Then the threat is generated. If I mitigate dmg like put a "bubble" around the dps or healer that SWTOR had an ability for. That generates a threat. The dmg I mitigate from players pushes threats to me. If I am doing my abilities correctly (ps. the abilities should also be viable in PVP and PVE), then the DPS should almost never take agro and if they do I can use an ability that mitigates their dmg taken and I absorb the dmg instead that "bubble" ability and instantly pushes the agro back on me.


    Ideal Example/Battle PVE
    - Tank uses a pull-in ability to grab a monster. The pull-in ability generates a threat.
    - Tank has agro and starts fighting to the monster.
    - Dps and healer do there thing. DPS goes full ham doing dmg. Healer does some holy healing to keep tank alive.
    - Monster does a big swing.
    - Tank puts up the shield at the right moment. Some dmg is prevented and generates a threat. Tank maintains agro.
    If Tank didn't put up a shield
    -Tank takes full or more dmg... and no threat is generated
    - Tank loses threat due to field shield usage. Boss goes to attack DPS or healer.
    - Tank uses ability to put a "bubble" to mitigate dmg the boss does to that dps or healer.
    - That "bubble" generates threat
    - The Boss goes back to the tank.

    Note: Every ability the tank has should be viable in PvP. So a "bubble" or a taunt should be useful in PvP.

    Summary
    - Tank should only lose agro if he fails to use his ability at the right time.
    - If the Tank loses agro due to his failure of not block at the right time or keep using threat abilities. Then he should have abilities to regain agro easily. Putting a bubble, pulling them back in, taunting them etc.
    - Tanks should not be worried about DPS doing to much dmg, or healers healing to much...
    - If anything it should be the other way around.. worrying about not doing enough dmg... or not healing enough.
    - DPS should not be worried about doing to much dmg ever and same for healers healing to much.

    Note:
    But that is just my opinion. I want to have challenges and difficult gameplay but entertaining as well. However, I don't want my challenging content focused on threat management. I want it to be focused on mitigation and blocking and defense as well.

    So if I am doing my job as a tank correctly I should never lose agro especially if the DPS is doing its job of bringing in the heat.

    Now if I screw up my job as a tank, I should get my agro back depending on the difficulty of the content how easy can I get my agro back. Hard content punishes more for mistakes.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Arugan wrote: »
    Summary
    - Tank should only lose agro if he fails to use his ability at the right time.
    - If the Tank loses agro due to his failure of not block at the right time or keep using threat abilities. Then he should have abilities to regain agro easily. Putting a bubble, pulling them back in, taunting them etc.
    - Tanks should not be worried about DPS doing to much dmg, or healers healing to much...
    - If anything it should be the other way around.. worrying about not doing enough dmg... or not healing enough.
    - DPS should not be worried about doing to much dmg ever and same for healers healing to much.

    Note:
    But that is just my opinion. I want to have challenges and difficult gameplay but entertaining as well. However, I don't want my challenging content focused on threat management. I want it to be focused on mitigation and blocking and defense as well.

    So if I am doing my job as a tank correctly I should never lose agro especially if the DPS is doing its job of bringing in the heat.

    Now if I screw up my job as a tank, I should get my agro back depending on the difficulty of the content how easy can I get my agro back. Hard content punishes more for mistakes.

    I actually don't mind this idea overall. But I will push back with some things.

    ** these ideas do not take into account larger scale boss mechanics, where all players are responsible to not wipe the group ** it is just some general thoughts around smaller party encounters, that don't have advanced mechanics.

    As you mentioned, tanks making mistakes causes problems, but they should have tools to recover from those mistakes. I think this idea also applies to healers - having specific skills to help them recover from healing the wrong person or something. (ie: full hp heal on a 60 min CD).

    But...what mistakes can DPS players make? not doing enough damage? not interrupting an ability? what are the consequences for that? longer time to kill? extra damage to the party? To me, dps almost never have consequences for poor performance. I think this is part of the reason why players find tanking/healing intimidating...things are generally blamed on those roles by default. whereas the average DPS can just press buttons and not think about much.

    If DPS actually need to interact with threat, then there is a more obvious pattern that emerges:
    - dps's mistake becomes "I didn't coordinate my big burst dmg with the tank's threat".
    - consequence becomes: the enemy/boss is now attacking me.
    - tools to fix this problem: skills that lower my threat, defensive CDs, kite, etc

    In both cases the same thing is happening: an enemy that should be attacking the tank, isn't.

    If this is ONLY ever caused by a tank's mistake...it seems a bit unfair to tank players. What does the DPS/healer think about that tank? "I'm getting attacked because this tank sucks". Even if that tank fixed the problem, they still caused it in the first place.

    Personally, I think if anyone can cause the problem it is more likely to encourage cooperation instead.
    dps player: "whoops I made a mistake and pulled aggro, thanks for defending me tank!"
    tank player: "whoops I couldn't hold aggro, thanks for helping me get it back mage!"

    To counter my own point, I guess if any player can cause this...then things potentially turn into a blame game...but I think there are other solutions to that particular problem. That's another conversation.
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Edit: Here is a follow-up question for you non-tanking players :wink:
    For non-tanking players, are you fond of having to play your role with threat in mind?

    Yes. Without threat the game is boring.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • AruganArugan Member, Alpha One
    edited February 2023
    @MrPockets I see what your saying that is a good point.
    MrPockets wrote: »
    But...what mistakes can DPS players make? not doing enough damage? not interrupting an ability? what are the consequences for that? longer time to kill? extra damage to the party? To me, dps almost never have consequences for poor performance. I think this is part of the reason why players find tanking/healing intimidating...things are generally blamed on those roles by default. whereas the average DPS can just press buttons and not think about much.

    I agree there should be a consequence for DPS. Not doing enough dmg shouldn't be the only consequence. But I don't like the solution being DPS or Healers do less of your role.

    I would say a better consequence would be if not enough dmg is dealt let's say for a certain time period then the mob will do more damage.

    Example:
    - NW has a stamina meter for mobs specifically bosses. The more heavy attacks you do the lower the meter goes. Once it goes to zero the boss gets "stunned"

    Other Possible Option:
    What if instead of being stunned we have a similar stamina meter? While it's active the boss does more dmg and you have to bring it down fast enough before it regenerates or resets.

    I think the role and failure of the role should be similar to the consequences.

    Failure to maintain threat and Tank. This means someone else will receive a threat and "Tank" it.

    Failure to maintain heals. This means their health will go down and they die.

    Failure to maintain dmg. Means they will get more dmg back.


    Note: Maybe this is a dumb idea and the mechanic of threat has been the same because there isn't any better idea and its the only thing that works to give balance.
  • MrPocketsMrPockets Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2023
    @Arugan I think there are some good ideas here! I'm glad we are roughly on the same page. :smile:
    Arugan wrote: »
    Other Possible Option:
    What if instead of being stunned we have a similar stamina meter? While it's active the boss does more dmg and you have to bring it down fast enough before it regenerates or resets.

    I think the role and failure of the role should be similar to the consequences.

    Failure to maintain threat and Tank. This means someone else will receive a threat and "Tank" it.

    Failure to maintain heals. This means their health will go down and they die.

    Failure to maintain dmg. Means they will get more dmg back.


    Note: Maybe this is a dumb idea and the mechanic of threat has been the same because there isn't any better idea and its the only thing that works to give balance.

    I think this concept of a "stamina meter" has some potential. Maybe it must be depleted before a key skill can be interrupted. Maybe it just "breaks" the enemy and they take more damage for X amount of time. This seems like a good reward for players who plan ahead for this burst window. Also during this time, threat is not applied (or greatly reduced) for DPS units, so they don't have to worry about pulling aggro. This goes back to your tank example, the tank can still mess up during this "break" phase and drop aggro. ...or maybe the party is just rewarded for hitting the "break" and they can ALL go ham? *shrug*

    This offers a more focused task for the DPS players, and if they don't perform their job, there are real consequences. (ie: heals, enrage, casts party wide dmg, etc)

    I actually really like this compromised solution. Threat still exists and is meaningful, but DPS players do not have to directly interact with it. They get their own "mini game" for their role during combat. This also opens the door for skills that have extra effect to this "stamina meter" vs a "break" phase.

    This seems like it could be a more universal system for most mobs, instead of only reserved for bosses.
  • OrbificatorOrbificator Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I almost always play a tank. I just love the Idea of being dummy hard to kill (Even if it means no damage and prolonged fights with regenerating trolls in ESO). I also love controlling the enemy.

    But to answer the other question: For non-tanking players, are you fond of having to play your role with threat in mind?

    I'm answering this from a casual perspective. I put thousands of hours into games I love and play similar amounts of time as hardcore players, but I'm practically always alone or with randoms through a queue. I've never joined a serious guild where people actually coordinate. I could be considered hardcore but as I mostly play with casuals this colors my experience. With that being said:

    I really don't mind waiting for the tank to attack first before an encounter. In my experience, however, people tend to just jump in and attack anyway. It is really not fun to (as the tank) fight for aggro or (as dps) wait for the tank to properly build it.

    Simply put:
    -Holding back my damage because the tank can't instant aggro can be annoying.
    -Allowing tank to reliably taunt who he needs to helps tank maintain control so I can focus on damage.


    Again, this is my experience as someone who mostly plays with casual players/randoms. So take that as you will.
    u4ud44oeff0w.gif
  • @Arugan Its been a few years, but if I remember correctly WildStar had a similar system where you needed to deplete the Enemy-AI's shield bar to create vulnerabilities, etc. Also in that game design, players needed to equip/slot interrupt abilities to provide an interrupt to a particular NPC/Boss (2-3 Party members needed to interrupt at a particular moment) in order to disrupt a specific combat mechanic, etc...
    I really enjoyed that game, while it lasted.
  • AruganArugan Member, Alpha One
    @PapaWhiskey that is true! I forgot about that. That was a fun mechanic. An adaptation of that would be cool and satisfy the idea of the consequence of dps failing to do their part and not having dps worrying about reducing their dmg output.
  • I come from ESO as a magicka tank. I like the idea of having the ability to manage the battlefield. When I want to pull a particular enemy to me I have a leash skill to do it. When I am tanking damage, I like the mechanics of having to keep my damage mitigations up.

    Yes, I like that I have 15 seconds of 'taunt' and I have to keep refreshing that along with the debuffs you impose from the ice staff's 'clench'.

    I like my pulls, my roots, my shields. As a tank, I am there not just to manage the enemies but also support my party with buffs to them, and debuffs on the enemies.

    I don't like standing in one place and holding block. Make me dance. Make me have to get out of the red. I love being a tank and being forced to learn the mechanics of a dungeon boss or to a trial.

    As a DPS, I understand I am squishy. I am squishy and two or three hits from being dead. As things should be. But I feel that as a DPS my job shouldn't just be there to burn down the boss and trash. My job is to make sure the tank isn't swamped with mobs and goes down from being hamstrung from behind. The tanks job is to keep the big bad and the elites from wiping us. As a DPS, I think it is my job to keep the tank from getting zerged.
    MY Own NIckle Co-operates with an EYE. -Mīonikoī.
  • For people who prefer to play the tanking role, do you enjoy holding threat as a prevalent part of combat? Would you prefer threat mechanics to be a part of combat initiation, or throughout the entire duration of combat?
    - If a tank does not have to hold threat, then they are not a tank. One would think that this is self-evident. They become just another specialized DPS/CC class.

    - I view threat management as a group synergy thing, and it requires some effort from everyone during the entire fight.

    - IN EQ2 Bards could transfer a % of group threat to the tank or lower it on high DPS group members. My assassin could transfer 20% of my aggro to the tank and when I had all my major assassination skill and DPS increasers up to do my major spike damage rotation I would hit my aggro drop ability that was on a cooldown right after the spike damage to make sure I did not take aggro.

    - I had to play to the tanks ability to hold aggro based on their ability and the situation during the fight. If the tank was bad and could not hold aggro due to gear, kit, or pure ability I had to adjust my dps output or decide to leave the group.

    - Without having to worry about threat then where is the risk/reward, challenge, and fun?

    - As a tank if I had a good healer I could change to offensive stance and pump DPS up and not have to worry about taunts and other abilities to hold aggro as often.

    - The game becomes easy mode without threat management. A good tank that can manage aggro and hold mobs, gather them up position them, CC them is working. Not just face tanking a mob and mashing buttons in the same repetitive rotation repeatedly.

    - In Wow a lot of pug groups just ignore their CC’s and CC mechanics because they leave that up to the tank. This is why most pugs cannot do 15+ 20+ mystic dungeons and dps gets tunnel focused on their DPS meters to be top dog dpser.

    - DPS just mashes buttons as fast as they can while avoiding mechanics. Never having to worry that if they attack the mob while the tank is CCed or out of melee range they run the risk of pulling aggro onto themselves or the riad or group if I don’t play to the situation.

    - To me, threat management is about riding the line of 'how much mitigation do I need, and how much can I remove for other paths toward damage/control?' Can I get into offensive stance to burn through trash mobs faster etc.

    - Tanks should do %50-70 of a pure dpser class depending what kits they use. Defensive or offensive. MT or OT.
    - As a raid MT in EQ2 and Now in WoW, I would let DPSers who would not wait 5 secs for me to gather up agroo and lock it down die over and over and if they whiped the raid they would be kicked because a dps is a huge liability and waste of everyones time if they are dead or burn up all the healers major heals and mana because they decided to tank mobs 24/7. The goal in raids is to win and get loot not get an extra 10K-20K dps/ps at the expense of getting everone killed.

    - If you want to be a dps god tank then play a dps fighter class or another game.

    - It is like a healer stating they want to just dps and not have to heal. When you have the ability to DPS some as a healer it is fun but when you need to get down to business you heal.


  • Vaknar wrote: »
    For people who prefer to play the tanking role, do you enjoy holding threat as a prevalent part of combat? Would you prefer threat mechanics to be a part of combat initiation, or throughout the entire duration of combat?

    Yes, I do enjoy generating and holding threat as part of combat. No, I would not prefer threat to be part of combat initiation as I believe that would lead to static encounter design concerning tanking. My preference, as a tank, is to work for threat and work with my party to properly manage that mechanic.

    Threat mechanics should be viewed as a design tool to create engaging encounters and mob AI interactions. Threat should be a core fight mechanic and class toolkit design should reflect that.

    AOC has a real opportunity to create something special that moves away from the past decade of progressive dps race content. The goal should be to create entertaining cooperative play. To me this means content should not be meter focused, of any kind, but encounter focused and I view threat as a solid mechanic to help institute this. Some form of indicator would be helpful. My suggestion would be an unobtrusive icon or effect on the player name bar to indicate who has threat on a target and a secondary icon/effect for the next player on the threat table with a warning effect when close to taking threat.

    Additionally, tank class archetypes will hopefully have different flavors to them. Based on the secondary archetype chosen I would hope to be able to increase attributes and customize my tank to my preferred play style (i.e build for increased mitigation or increased threat generation etc.…).

    Class/Tank archetypes seem to be designed to support the OT role. I find this quite interesting and would hope that this line would have access to some threat modifier in order to correctly fill the OT group role to include the ability to taunt via a modified skill. Considering taunts, hard taunts should be strategic in use and not the primary mechanism to control threat (i.e. emergency grab or purposeful pull such as mob splitting).

    My last comment is slightly off topic. I have an interest in the block mechanics being implemented. I would like to see the implementation of a “timed” block. This is my preference over static shield block hold. Correctly timed blocks could have additional effects (i.e. short stagger) to include the application of a threat modifier on the next X attacks. The tank should be rewarded for good play.

    My two cents. Keep up the good work and community engagement.
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