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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Being able to 'pop-off' with all of your damage cooldowns while watching threat levels is a teeter-totter mechanic that makes fights more engaging than just spamming your high DPS buttons and falling asleep while waiting for the damned thing to die.
From the tanks perspective, being able to communicate with the rest of your team when threat is solidified or not allows you to lead and control the ebb-and-flow of a boss.
We dont need another MMO where you gather up massive numbers of enemies all at once with a tank to aoe them down with no risk, such farming tactics should require formations and planning, instead of just one tank, one healer and many damage.
What is engaging is the tank marking a target to be focused on, because other targets have lower threat generation from him on.
What is engaging is for dps to sleep, stun, disable or whatever the non focus target to reduce incoming damage.
There are so many games already where threat is set and forget, ashes shouldnt try to compete with the market for those fall asleep or watch netflix styles.
Take a dungeon or large raid in WoW for example, sure there are some AoEs and ground targeted abilities that the entire party has to dodge away from, but the boss always either stays on the tank or is fixed in one place. This relatively stationary boss behavior is what necessitates the ridiculous barrage of AoEs in order to keep the rest of the raid from sitting still for 5-10 minutes burning the boss.
What if magical threat-inducing mechanics weren’t a reliable form of constant aggro management for tanks? Perhaps there’s a temporary aggro effect for emergency situations (tank-mage could use mind control, tank-bard could use a magical verbal taunt, etc) but the rest of the time, their job is simply to CC and debuff the boss.
Imagine an open world boss in Ashes. You’ve got a big area that’s had the surrounding mobs methodically cleared out, and you pull the boss. Sure, you can give the tank a moment to build up some aggro, but as soon as the rest of the group jumps in, that boss will start picking people out based on damage, health, etc, and will do whatever it takes to get to them. The rest of the party will have to stay on their toes and remain mobile in order to avoid getting roasted by the boss. As players are forced to lower their DPS / Healing while they avoid the boss, those of other players’ will go up, and the boss’s aggro will eventually redirect.
Meanwhile, the “tank” will be using abilities that diminish the boss’ armor, lower their attack damage, slow their movement speed, grapple them away from other players, apply dazes, stuns, and knock-backs in conjunction with other players’ abilities, occasionally force the boss’s attention away before cone-based attacks, and generally reduce the threat that the boss poses to their teammates.
This sounds like a bunch of fun to me, both from the tank’s perspective and the perspective of the other teammates. The team that put together the showcase this weekend were stacked right on top of each other so often, just staying relatively still in the same little 3-meter-radius circle the whole time. A bit yawn-inducing IMO. I think a system like I proposed could potentially fit into ashes of creation given that the team seems to be trying to strike a balance between old school stationary-tab and action combat. I think it would be a lot of fun, and could potentially make tanking a more popular role.
Threat mechanic isn't fun. It never was fun always fighting to maintain threat. The tank should easily maintain the threat throughout the combat.
and if we are having taunt moves, for PVP have them reduce players' damage. To make taunt viable for PVP.
In my opinion, I wouldn't even have a taunt move. Every move tank uses should generate threat. Active blocking for a tank should generate threat.
The tank should worry about stunning and staying alive and leading the team.
Having tanked in all of these games, and many others. I am actually on the opposite camp from you. Not saying your opinion is wrong, but I wonder if you ever tanked in FF14 before the tank nerf, where the game is like you now describe. Today in that game, if the tank simply exists they hold threat, before the nerf tanks actually had to use specific threat management abilities, as well as the dps using threat reduction.
I wonder if you ever played in the really old games like Age of Conan, where threat management was your life, and DPS/Healer --had-- to stun/cc the mobs that were not the focus target or the party died, basic trash pulls in raids or dungeons were like this.
And a score of other games. I have always found that in games where as a tank the game does my job for me, which is to direct enemy aggression to me, I rapidly disliked tanking, and moved to the more engaging dps gameplay where I had to dodge all the random aoe spam the boss throws out, as Sengarden describes.
Just goes to show how vastly different experiences even tank mains can have I guess. Although I sincerely hope tank combat isn't as boring as you wish it to be.
On the note that Sengarden was speaking too;
Based on some of the available world bosses in the alpha1, which could be tanked by a tank. I actually think we will have a encounter design team that incorporates a bit of randomness. Where the tank "tanks" just the autoattacks and key tankbusters which may or may not cleave in a direction. (Cleaves require using the big blue shield shown in the update)
What we saw in alpha1 was mechanics where the boss would jump around in location randomly to a player not the tank, before activating a barrage of abilities, which also included some of the tankbuster cleaves. This will help keep positioning active, making players get back in formation and the tank/boss not static and unmoving.
However, they need to do something to make these encounters a little, scarier I guess. I was able to solo all of the world bosses except the fire dragon as a mage, which makes one question if their encounter design will even require tanks at all, or if we can stack dps and healers in our teams.
Clarification:
@Taerrik I played Age of Conan for a little but not long enough to recall its combat and roles that well. However, I don't want Tank's gameplay to be boring. I want it to focus on other aspects and make them more entertaining. Instead of Threat being the Tanks main concern I rather have:
- Timing the Blocks / Dodges
- Timing dmg mitigation
- Doing Stuns, roots, and other CC's
My Experince
Also, I am primarily a PVP'er and love being a Tank for PVP in games. MOBAs(LOL, Smite etc.) or MMORPG( WoW, NW, SWTOR, etc.), and what I noticed is when games have Tanks being threat/taunt machines. They lose out on other mechanics that are far more entertaining. Especially when a game focuses on a Tank just taunting and maintaining threats, those games tend to make Tanks useless for PvP.
Now that's just my opinion. Especially an opinion from a more PvP Tank player than a PvE.
My Opinion:
But since the threat is probably a necessary mechanic for Ashes and people are so used to it. I would keep the threat mechanic but make it far easier for tanks to hold it than what was shown in the video and most games. But also focus on other aspects the tank will have to do. Make Blocking and even blocking at the right time crucial. Make dmg mitigation at the right time more crucial.
To make that happen I would make more abilities keep their normal effects (stuns snares, roots) but add on threat generation. If a taunt is absolutely necessary then that's fine but make it useful for pvp as well. Reducing the dmg of enemy players.
I would also have more Blocking Mechanics, like Elden Ring or Valhiem. Blocking at the right time. Or have dmg mitigation moves which Ashes showed. So if you use it at the wrong time you take too much dmg and die.
But that's just my opinion and I am no developer so I could be wrong.
Like Lashing with the affinities I would like to have some random multipliers in the threat calculation for my skills. I Tanked most of my days through early wow till wolk and there you had a linear increase of the number threat everyone knew this number and should stand underneath it that I think is a boring concept. Now I would like it a bit spicier like the affinity or that some skills or all have the random number with it so that more often a bit of chaos is on the battlefield. I personally think this would also increase the fun for the Tank player.
The dilemma
If threat is a competition between the tank and the rest of the party to hold aggro, this puts teammates against each other in a weird way. If the tank can't output enough threat, the rest of the party has to throttle their output, which never feels good. The "competition" is made worse because threat mechanics tend to be difficult to judge. When aggro is lost, the mob instantly turns onto the party in an unpredictable way without any tell because some arbitrary number value was exceeded.
However, if the tank role can easily hold threat and aggro almost never gets dropped, the whole threat mechanic is sort of pointless and tanks have less meaningful gameplay. Just tag the mobs and sit there.
My opinion
By default, tank aggro should be very sticky and only drop if a tank is actively kiting. At the same time, the threat system should be tiered according to mob types to offer varying gameplay experiences!
As a closing thought, I would again ask the developers to challenge the notion of only two tanks per group for PvE. Tanking should be a group effort for large parties, while parties of 1-8 should be okay with 1-2 tanks.
Of course, not everyone will respect the throttle and just go ham. That will be a headache for the tank.
What if being a great DPS is not only about how much damage you can do? What if it is about working WITH your party and coordinating big burst windows?
Why is "throttling" dps a bad thing?
- because someone might overtake you on the dps meter?
This bleeds into a whole other discussion about dps meters, and shouldn't be considered for this threat topic. I'll leave it at that.- because you have to stop pressing buttons?
If the ONLY way to lower your threat as a dps was to not deal damage, I can understand this complaint. But classes can be designed in ways to allow you to press buttons AND lower threat. It just means the great dps will be able to deal a lot of damage, while also not pulling aggro. Personally, I think this makes the winners/losers even more obvious (not requiring a dps meter), and it sounds like that's what you want?The problem is the people that haven't put in the time to grind the gear, study their skills, and come up with the best build don't have to worry about all that. They can just go ham. If you do take the time to do all that and get the best output you get punished for it. So if I work to find this great setup, and spend time to maximize it, you ultimately could feel like it was a waste of time. Now you have to break it up just so you can get back to the level of people who aren't as good so you don't screw up your party.
And yes I have 0 issue with dps meters. Of course, there is more to it than just outputting numbers, but all things being equal that is ultimately what separates the top tier from everyone else. Just like in real life and sports, there will be people better than you. That is okay, that gives you something to strive for.
Some people find fun in optimizing, studying builds and competing for the best output. You can't stop them btw, they will find a way to measure output and the top raids will look for them.
BTW I am a tank main. I see this all coming back to the tank and the headache it could create.
Dude I've been an end game raid tank for years. The only thing I really do in MMOs right now is get in chat and coordinate with groups.
Balance ought to be in a place where a tank geared similarly well as a dps can easily keep up.
DPS should have tools, traits, gear, or other means to lower their own threat generation.
Different enemies ought to have all sorts of different things that affect threat gen. Maybe a certain kind of frost wurm doesnt like people standing on its flanks and threat gen is increased there. Make things interesting.
Killing the enemy is not a tank only job where everyone else just gets to semi afk and spam damage buttons and not stand in fire, there should not be any mechanic that only one person is responsible for. A group clears content, not a single player carrying the rest.
we can have that and still have threat system. dont pull aggro, have some self restraint, self control. Maybe you mis timed your ability or crit too much - learn to throttle. it's not the end of the world. Sorry, you're not allowed to faceroll on the keyboard or look at your second monitor, watching some tiktok while spamming keys in a pattern.
You could be right. If it is geared so that no one has to throttle dps I have no issues (ie the Tank only loses threat if he screws up). I know it's just alpha but based on the presentation that was not the case. So I think this feedback is important as they develop.
So instead I look at tiktock, not even doing anything so my dps can go down for threat?
Are you purposely ignoring the fact that threat mitigation abilities can exist (and often do)? You keep coming back to this idea that lowering threat can only be accomplished by "going afk"...
Also, why can't threat mitigation be part of your min/maxing? (ie: min threat, max dps). Is it not possible for there to be consequences for ONLY maxing damage? Threat mechanics are not there to try and "bring down" the dps. It is just a mechanic that players have to deal with, with the tools they are given in game. If we innovate on the threat mechanic instead of just dropping it, it can add meaningful depth/complexity to combat.
Again the issue is that this only applies more as you are better at dps. The better you are the more you have to nerf yourself. Why get the best gear and setup when it just means you end up having to gut it back down.
BTW if I understand you correctly you are talking about some kind of anti-threat skill for dps and healers. I do think that would be better than what they showed, but I've not heard anything about this from the devs. It still would require you to add a gimping skill to your setup based on your output, but at least it wouldn't be twiddling your thumbs.
Your inaccurate vague personal attacks don't help anyone.
I guess this applies if the game isn't designed with threat in mind, and if threat is just an after-thought. But if threat is treated as a first-class mechanic (as I think most players here have expressed they want it to be), then your fear of "nerfing" yourself never happens.
I'll do some quick examples to go through what I mean.
Threat as an after-thought:
You get a new weapon, and your DPS spikes. The tank can no longer keep up with your big deeps, so they ask you to slow down. Without other tools to mitigate this, there is nothing else you can do. This feels bad.
Threat as a first-class mechanic:
You get a new weapon, and your DPS spikes. The tank can no longer keep up with your big deeps, so they ask you to slow down. There are tools at your disposal to manage your threat...meaning you DON'T have to slow down, but instead you need to adjust your play style.
These tools may include things like:
I don't see how the second example goes against anything you are looking for. It encourages min/maxing, it lets players stand out from one-another, and you still get to do more damage than you were doing before.
Just because this mechanic has been designed poorly by other games in the past, doesn't mean that the concept as a whole is flawed. Clearly the idea of threat has some merit, since a lot of players seem to like the idea. Let's discuss how to improve these concepts the player base seems to like, instead of just throwing it away because we think it can't be done well.
For people who prefer to play the tanking role, do you enjoy holding threat as a prevalent part of combat? Would you prefer threat mechanics to be a part of combat initiation, or throughout the entire duration of combat?
Yes, when I play a tank role I do enjoy holding threat as a prevalent part of combat. I do prefer to manage Threat throughout the entire duration of combat.
I can understand that some folks want threat management simple and there is nothing wrong with that. In my experience there has to be a challenge (at least a level of difficulty) or a skill to master, in order for the
gameplay to be engaging.
For non-tanking players, are you fond of having to play your role with threat in mind?
Yes, when playing non tanking roles I do enjoy having to play and perform my role with threat in mind.
Bare with me folks and lets continue to thinker to provide Devs with some ideas in hopes of improving the systems in place.
I believe we dont need to say that at this point there are lots of things still pending on the Devs side.
I may be getting ahead of myself but if they havent thought about similar notification systems, I would incorporate a system named for example: <Class sight> It displays an icon in the enemy portrait and/or a UI notification at a Moment-of-Opportunity when the player is attacking, tanking and/or healing. It will be based on Archtype class.
The <Class Sight> is tied to the Enemy-NPC vulnerabilities.
The <Class Sight> icon appears based on a specific % of the Enemy-NPC HP, Hate level, etc.
In a group/raid setting, the system rationale selects random player(s) per Archtype for the Moment-of-Opportunity. Allowing team engagement also a moment to shine if performed correctly.
While Attacking (Damage Dealers)
Flags a moment of opportunity to Inflict More Damage by using (DOT, magic class, snare + autoattack, etc...) at a particular moment.
Flags a moment of opportunity to Reduce Threat by using (dodge + snares, dodge + auto attack, etc..) at a particular moment.
While Managing Threat (Tanks)
Flags a moment of opportunity to Increase Threat by using (snare + shout ability, dodge + Shield Assault ability, etc...) at a particular moment.
Flags a moment of opportunity to Reduce Damage Taken by using (Dodge + Inciting Strike, etc ...) at a particular moment.
While Healing (Healers)
Flags a moment of opportunity to Reduce Threat by using (dodge + snare, etc..) at a particular moment.
Flags a moment of opportunity to increase healing by using (snare + aoe heal, auto attack + ST heal, dispell + auto attack, etc...) at a particular moment.
The idea is not to control your playstyle, rather create opportunities that are engaging and synergistically viable between all parties, Enemy-NPC included.
These random notifications will allow a tank to create more threat if certain criteria is met at a specific time, while allowing Damager dealers to reduce threat the same way.
In that same line, a Damage dealer could increase their damage by meeting certain criteria when the time is right. The Healer is getting wrecked because of healing-aggro? There could be a window of time where they could reduce that threat by performing a specific criteria.
It is worth mentioning that there are lots of scenarios where you would not be able to seize a particular <Class Sight> ...
For example: An Elite or Boss is about to die, FULL DPS! Folks will not <Class Sight> to reduce threat. You can bet that Damage dealers and even Healers will be wiping that Boss ass...
The <Class Sight> increase damage requires a DOT or a particular magic school that your Class does not posses.
Im aware I have not addressed other supporting classes, but you guys and/or the Devs should get the idea.
Also to address another component of Threat Management, Visual Effects.
Tank's Main Hand Weapon could Brighten or Pulsates a Red glow when High Threat
Defensive/Mitigation Visual Effects
Tank could create a shielded Aura that Pulsates outwards
Do take these suggestions with an open mind, its also wishful thinking. All we are trying to do is provide enough ideas and perspectives for the Devs to spark creativity via curiosity.
Just my personal preference I like threat to be straightforward and reliable. Basically, just a debuff while up the mob only attacks you. I don't like the idea of threat becoming a stat that is hard to track and can cause chaos. In organized prog type groups, you will eventually find a rhythm. In pugs, it could be a nightmare. I don't feel like threat needs to be this overarching mechanic.
That is just my opinion though and I've seen other good ideas beyond what we saw in their presentation (like you are doing). I have critiques of these ideas but I think they are definitely improvements.
I think I do correctly understand your idea and my critique of it is you are having to nerf yourself for higher output still. If I have to add an anti-threat skill or item, that is taking away a dps skill or item that I may be able to replace it with. Again this is much better than just stopping dps but it still asks you to go backward because you went forward.
We still need to see the full dynamics of combat to say for sure but just the general idea that dps will want to stack as much as they can into doing more damage as long as the fight allows it. So replacing a skill, item, etc to manage your threat could be a step backward as you try and go forward in dps.
Hm... just so I'm absolutely sure I understand then.
What you want sounds like this:
1. DPS begins doing damage, prepares to avoid/perform mechanics while doing the maximum damage possible
2. DPS successfully avoids/performs mechanics, which is sufficient, since other than mechanics, the Tank is the one getting hit, and the Tank is there to absorb the non-mechanic effects so the DPS doesn't take that damage too.
3. As long as the Tank is competent, they will take all single target, non-mechanic based damage
What I want sounds like this (by contrast):
1. DPS begins doing damage, prepares to avoid/perform mechanics while doing the maximum damage allowed by the Tank's general threat rating
2. DPS successfully performs mechanics, and also uses different, less damaging options (with other benefits) sometimes, to either assist the Tank in raising their threat rating, or offer defense, or both, when their DPS gets to a point where it surpasses the Tank.
3. As long as the DPS is geared well enough to not die to single target, non-mechanic based damage too quickly, it's fine if they go over sometimes.
I can see how from the perspective of a DPS whose goal is to do max DPS, what I want isn't superior and probably isn't particularly interesting. Because it explicitly involves, as you said, taking a step back on the DPS aspect to help the Tank get their threat up more. Please note that's my experience. It's not 'stop doing things', it's 'use alternate abilities to assist the Tank's threat rating'.
I can still see how this isn't particularly interesting to a 'Pure DPS' player.
My question, therefore, is this.
If the Pure DPS player could simply have no Tank, and the mob or boss simply 'not have any damage that doesn't come from mechanics', is this also fine? Because let's say, for a moment, that a Tank player who doesn't enjoy the pure fantasy of 'being the unkillable badass' just doesn't have any interest in what you want...
Would it be better for all parties involved to just have a Totem that soaks the non-mechanic damage and the Cleric can recharge?
I know Tanks have other tasks, mostly CC to prevent other mechanics entirely, but technically these could just be spread out to other classes, and Tanks would not be NECESSARY. Like, if you could choose to go to an 8-man content as '7-man, single target damage turned OFF', and no Tank... as a DPS, is this fine?
I keep seeing this go in the direction of being a selfish dps. It's not about that. Group dps is what is important. Not individual dps. Importantly your group also does the best dps if they all survive. The "don't die" part takes everyone, and so does the "do damage" part. They are intertwined.
Let's say I want to go dps. First I get a character in a pure dps setup. I learn to push as much as possible. Now I decide where I'm going to go. I remove a dps skill for a HoT because this boss has adds that could be biting me while they are getting wrangled and killed. In another place, my group doesn't have this buff we need so I might as well replace a dps skill. That buff could add more group dps or be for group survival. In some places you just need to push as much as you can, so bring the best dps you can. Some might have small teams that need to work together to survive. It's all a balancing act per encounter and depends on what is asked of you.
Now you add a game overarching mechanic in threat. It is a constant that uniquely and negatively scales as your dps increases. That might be another dps skill that always has to be removed. As you take steps forward in your dps you now risk going backward. It's one thing to adjust for a specific group in a specific dungeon, it's another thing to adjust because you upgraded your gear. It will get worse as you get better.
How much worse does your group get trying to keep threat under control because everyone is getting better?
Alright, hoped you'd answer it as is, but I guess I don't have enough 'rep' yet (or it's impossible to have).
Thanks anyway, but you can ignore me, disengaging.
I apologize if I offended you. I tried to address your points in earnest.