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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The Implications of the Removal of Crossbows/Potion Launchers
Judeth
Member, Alpha Two
Recently we’ve gotten news that crossbows and potion launchers will no longer be included in the game. This is a major disappointment to the community… Not only because there are those who were hoping to use these weapons, but because this decision could be foreshadowing the future of Ashes.
Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?
Considering that crossbows were a stretch goal, people paid to have them implemented. Dropping them from the game implies a disregard for other promised features.
It also implies that Ashes combat/class systems will not be as multiplex and flexible as many of us hope it will be. They’ve chosen to exclude these weapons because of extra animation and vfx work, and most likely because they also don’t want to worry about adding additional skills that support these weapons. This suggests that there will only be a set amount of skills that come with your class, and players will not be able to build their character with unique skill combinations that specialize with their weapon choice and enchants/buffs. This suggests a very two-dimensional system, which is a major disappointment… Not only because it limits player choice, but it limits the heights that can be reached in the game. A two-dimensional combat system goes in tandem with a two-dimensional craft system and so forth.
A fellow member in my guild suggested a good idea: Weapons with a more complex design (crossbows/potion launchers) could be unlocked in higher level scientific nodes. Ideas such as this are not feasible if ideas are cut because it would be “too much work”. Dark and Darker is able to implement crossbows with a slow reload time. This game is much clunkier and lower budget that I hope ashes will be, but its still able to create an interesting combat experience with these weapons.
It is within reason that players are expecting a game that redefines the mold and breaks the wheel of boring mmorpgs. We have been forced to live with the dream of a game that actually puts the rpg in mmo, a game where you can live your fantasy life. We’ve had to live with thoughts of, “Well this could be better if only it had xyz.” As the target demographic of these products we need to demand better, for the sake of the future of mmorpgs. We need to stop accepting excuses and being overly understanding. This is a product you are paying for.
It is also inexcusable that we were informed of this change in a discord post from Steven. The “relatable developer” marketing is beginning to look unprofessional. This includes the tank showcase, where Steven’s lack of skill made it hard to reliably judge the tank role being showcased. People seem to forget that Steven Sharif has a history of multi level marketing and is here to sell a product. Being a relatable gamer here to save the mmo genre is a great marketing ploy.
It’s clear that from the amount of money invested in what they’ve shown us, that Ashes is not a scam. Though in the end it is a product and we are the consumers of that product. I’m not at all against them making money, but I am against low quality goods. You get to choose what food you put into your mouth. I’d sooner pay $300 for a 100% linen ethically/sustainably made dress, than I would pay $5 for a dress off of Shein. That’s to say its better to pay for a high quality product.
I encourage all of my fellow community members to voice their opinions on developer decisions, and to demand a high quality product. It is better to make demands that are “unreasonable” than to sit and accept shortcuts. We have a great opportunity, developers seem to actually read and listen to us, and we get to help shape a game that could be the future of MMORPGs.
This isn’t just about crossbows, its about the future of gaming.
Cheers friends
4
Comments
I’d also like to mention, it would be more reasonable to delay the release of these weapons than to forgo them all together. Majority of people are not expecting complete features in A2, and many players would rather delay release of the game if it means more features in the final product.
I imagined how on a weekday, during working hours, you go out onto the road with a poster and a mouthpiece ... funny ...)))
I don't care about 2 niche weapons (with potion launchers still present in the game on ships), but I do care about base mechanics of the game and core designs. Weapons can always be added later on, but changing core mechanics would be much harder.
I'd rather get the game a bit sooner w/o a third form of a bow and a glorified carriable cannon, than wait for even longer than we'll already have to wait. When Intrepid promised a super cool mmorpg and totally "not like other girls", I expected a game with mechanics and designs that are on the rarer side in current mmos - not 3 types of bows and a ship cannon in my hands.
I think you missed that I went out of my way to explain how ashes is not a scam, and that the point of me mentioning that he’s an mlmer was to further explain that ashes is a product they’re selling to us. Which I pointed out because there’s an excess of people on here who will choose to support developers over supporting the quality of product we’re buying.
And to bounce off of what Chicago said here:
The point of my post isn’t strictly about the removal of those weapons, its to discuss the implications of these removals and what it means for the game. Considering that I care more about the content of the game, no I would not be here complaining about how adding weapons would slow down development process. As for your point about people just “searching for something to complain about”, I only post on the forum to discuss the game and this removal has multiple implications that I think are important for people to discuss,
We’re here to have a healthy debate, so of course people are free to disagree with any of the points i’ve brought up. Let’s try to foster an insightful environment to discuss the game in without making everything “you vs me”. 🌻
Fair enough mate sorry if i offended you it was not intentinal, in my opinion though the gave is still in development i think it would be different if they were removing weapons from the game after release but as for now i think its okay and healthy to do so
So I disagree with you drawing a line from one point of not-yet-existing content removal, because they've made a ton of other stuff that is still there to provide content. Oh, also, weren't tulnar also a stretch goal? And we've already gotten their progress on that.
I think this is a bs take.
The teams that would do this wouldn't even be tangentially related.
Also we haven't ACTUALLY gotten any progress on Tulnar.
We got sketches and more explanations of how it supposedly will work whenever it does.
I don't think we have any explicit reason to expect Tulnar to be more 'solid' than Crossbows or Freehold Cosmetics.
@Judeth - If my contributions to this thread are 'inconsistent' or unhelpful let me know, I'm just doing a 'due diligence' for some people at this point, which means I may not always be expressing my own perceptions.
Nobody will miss crossbows or potion launchers.
A true mmo is such a big thing, that miniscule flavours such as two weapons, (widely not represented in mmos) are nothing to worry about, or name "shortcuts", as part of picture that casts doubt on the development.
Out of the 8 classes, the usage of crossbows and potion launchers over other, established fantasy weapons, would have been minimal.
Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Also, have we seen any indication that there'll be mobs with crossbows or launchers? Cause if yes, then Intrepid is obviously bullshiting us because, I'd imagine, the exact same teams would be working on those mobs that would've been working on player side of those weapons.
But if we haven't seen those, then I'd assume Intrepid are trying to better plan out their progress. Cause dear fucking god do they need a good plan to finish this game "in time". We've also heard that quite a lot devs wear several hats, so there's a chance that some or all animators/modelers are also doing something else on the side, so adding two whole weapon types would delay that other work as well.
I definitely agree with the freehold cosmetics part though, cause it's getting quite a bit silly at this point that we got 0 fucking clue what cosmetic goes on what building. And I'd find it quite hilarious (even if potentially legally dangerous) if at some point in the future Intrepid will have to reimburse everyone who bought building cosmetics but then learned that they literally can't use them cause those buildings are somehow limited gameplay-wise, or if the cosmetic just doesn't fit/work/apply to the building that the majority of people thought it would.
true tbh one less thing that need to be made means slightly faster launch time aswell :P
They can add crossbows later down the road if they wanted so no big deal
Also, I've tried looking for concrete info, but I can't find any indication of particularly crossbows or launchers being promised in the kickstarter. And wiki seems to have moved on from them and only points towards those weapons just mentioned in the context of APOC.
Do you have a link that directly shows Intrepid promising these 2 particular weapons for kickstarter backers?
Because think about it. From what we know, there were NO advances in their civilization hardly at all from when they left Verra with the gods to when they came back. I cannot stress enough that they were specifically sent to a realm/plane/world that was devoid of magic. This would require a massive development of non-magical tools, utilities, and general survival implements as they had originally lived in a HIGH magic fantasy world.
This is concerning to say the least from a lore perspective.
That is a Tulnar.
Verran people lived for whoever knows how long with super high magic that probably completely stopped any real mechanical progress, cause why wouldn't you need it when you have magic. Then they get thrown into an unknown world w/o that magic and w/ 0 knowledge of how to even begin to develop mechanical tools.
And if they started from that kind of 0, I could definitely see how those dumb magical people could take several thousands of years to figure out only the most basic of tools.
All that to say - the lore could still pull off them not knowing shit about mechanical contraptions. We just don't know any of that lore deep enough to know the reasoning behind the things that we do know.
Steven himself said it. I have also looked for direct evidence, but I am deferring to Steven on this. He said it was a stretch goal and now that stretch goal is being axed. In my opinion, that is breaking a promise. It just makes doesn't sense for crossbows especially to not be included in the game. It does a disservice to the Ranger class. It doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. They were already in Apoc. It gives us less variety of weapon options, etc. But as I said before, it really is more about the broader implications for me than the weapons being cut.
I wonder if we're still getting Ballista, and it's just the player character animations.
I have no perspective on this, since, to me, Crossbow is among the easiest things to animate, even if you were to do the entire 'reloading properly between each shot' animation.
So regardless of whether or not I care about the weapon itself being cut, I am quite surprised by the reasoning given.
You can't say you're doing one thing and take money for it and then back out of it. Intrepid isn't even offering a full refund; they're giving people in-store currency. It just isn't a good look.
Regardless of if it was a “promised” feature or not I’m still keeping my stance. There are lots of other features they have mentioned including that aren’t stretch goals, and removing something as small as a weapon type could be the start of them backing down on other features.
Most importantly to me, it implies a lack-luster combat system. If they don’t want to add new animations and skills to support the crossbow, that suggests there are set skills for each class and you won’t get to pick or choose your skills. This is extremely important to me because something I crave in an mmorpg is customization. I want something akin to path of exiles (doesnt need to be nearly as crazy), not some set deck of skills I have no control over. This limits player choice and creativity, something I think people forget should be part of a mmorpg. If I want to build a mage that only grabbed ice skills and uses an off-hand dagger enchanted with freeze that slows my enemies I should be able to, even if it would be a completely crap build and no one would want to do a dungeon with me.
Archers are going to be limited to only bows now, so that’s some player choice already thrown out the window, and part of ashes’ selling point is that weapons aren’t class locked. What’s the point of not being class locked if all the skills require a certain weapon to be used, and your class can only realistically use 2 weapons?
Whats the point of a big map if there’s nothing in it because they remove all this “small” stuff?
Why have a caravan system to trade across this giant map if I can’t put my goods in a friend’s caravan and ride on the seat next to them? Maybe I want to ride a mule while trading, are they going to be removed too? They talked about adding crop rotation, if they’re removing cross bows crop rotation is sure to go. Those who think removing 2 weapons isn’t a big deal won’t bat an eye at stuff like that. Is farming going to be lack luster? Is it just going to be some square plot on my homestead I throw seeds on and wait 5 hours? If that’s the case, then how interesting if life skilling really going to be??
When they start removing something like a weapon, we need to start considering what other stuff will go and how that might effect certain aspects of the game. What’s the point of claiming to be unique if they’re just going to be another reskinned copy of the other mmorpgs? They have a chance to make something freaking amazing.
Lots of people won’t care if these “small” features are removed, and alright fair enough - but these features are important to other people and can make or break the game for them. To that some would say, “Well then don’t play it.” Yeah i’ve been not playing a lot of mmorpgs for a long time now because they’re lacking and boring, so sorry but now that I have a chance to ask for something I can enjoy i’m going to. For those who don’t care about this stuff being removed or not I have to ask, how is having more going to hurt? Other than waiting a little longer to play. I doubt anyone is going to complain when the game is out that they have too many options, if anything it would make it more fun to play.
I think a better decision for them would be to delay these weapons rather than to forgo them all together.
(Also Mabinogi has crossbows, and guns… So why can’t Ashes?)
I do normally try to remain unbiased and I value everyone’s opinions, I also proofread my posts and comments like 10 times each, so forgive me if I got a bit passionate in my message here. Its only because I desperately want an mmorpg I can call home, and i’m worried if they start removing all this stuff my home is just going to be foundation and some plywood. <- bit of an exaggeration to jest
Its not “their” game, we’re the ones paying for the product, its our game. This isn’t a sandbox and they’re building a sand castle while I stand there and suggest they add a moat.
We can only hope this will be the case - if those shortcuts take the form of "let's simply not spend time on this thing, and maybe we can add it in to the game at a later time".
Your suggestion of making crossbows only available in high level nodes is missing the point. The point is to not spend time on them, and having them only available to specific nodes still requires that time be spent.
Damn, someone tell Steven his and John's millions invested in the game isn't needed. Judeth is ready to fund the development all on his own.
This made me chuckle. Touché. 😆
I mentioned it because I think its a good idea and a solid reason to spend time on them, as it would give more reasons to level up a scientific node, or to be a crafter in a scientific node.
You behave like you are some kind of important share holder. The studio doesnt owe you anything. You accepted the terms and they will also give credit for the skins.
They are developing a game. You are just a forum user who may have donated money for the opportunity to play the game during tests. Stop acting like IS is accountable to you.
You want an mmo. They make an mmo. They are not making YOUR mmo with their money.
I'm just trying not to draw a line from a point, because I hate when people do that. While twitter is obviously a hellhole, I do think that it represents the worst possible extrapolations that people like to do. And twitter is damn full with people seeing one thing and then extrapolating into the worst possible direction, then thinking that this direction is somehow reality (though no indication of such thing ever happened) and then they argue their ass off against that direction.
Rn, to me, it seems that you're doing exactly that. There's obviously a chance that they remove more features or go back on more promises in the future. But I'd prefer to worry about those if they come, rather than panicking rn.
Also, "having more" hurts when we're talking about a game that has already promised a shitton of stuff and has yet to deliver on the absolute majority of that stuff. We could assume that Intrepid have, realistically, only worked on the game for maybe a year or two, due to super small team early on and then covid messing with stuff. But then it would mean that we still have 5+ years of development ahead of us. And at those time scales I'm almost sure that quite a few things will either get delayed by a lot of removed completely. And right now I'd prefer if those were little things rather than big core systems.