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The Implications of the Removal of Crossbows/Potion Launchers

13

Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2023
    Galvyr wrote: »
    Steven himself said it. I have also looked for direct evidence, but I am deferring to Steven on this. He said it was a stretch goal
    Indeed, but he didn't say it was a kickstarter stretch goal.

    I mean, Intrepid will have internal goals for things they want in the game that aren't all from the kickstarter. If Intrepid had crossbows as a goal to add to the game if they had the time, that could constitute a stretch goal - which is literally all Steven said crossbows ever were - and since there was no mention at all of them on the kickstarter page, (which anyone can still go to), we can't then claim crossbows were a kickstarter stretch goal.
  • JudethJudeth Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Roxi wrote: »
    much more interesting than your snot which you call "constructive feedback".
    Вы хотите комментировать русский язык, но обижаться на русский шутки? Окей. Русская этимология переводится лучник как «bower» и «луч» означает «beam». Это не то же самое, что на английском. Это слово было создано до появления арбалета.

    He wasn't offended by anything.

    No, they were clearly offended by the meme I sent.
    No they weren't.

    There was nothing in their post to suggest offense.

    The fact that you claim to have seen it kind of says you posted that picture in an attempt to cause some sort of offense.
    I don’t know how you can read them say “much more interesting than your snot which you call "constructive feedback"” and not understand that as them being offended. Maybe you didn’t actually read it? Or you think this is a normal way to talk to people? And no, memes are sent to be funny, if they get offended over a meme that’s their problem. I’m not sure why you’re even responding for them, its weirder than their comment. It’s probably why I have you ignored. Пока братишка
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    Judeth wrote: »
    Вы хотите комментировать русский язык, но обижаться на русский шутки? Окей. Русская этимология переводится лучник как «bower» и «луч» означает «beam». Это не то же самое, что на английском. Это слово было создано до появления арбалета.

    I didn't mean to upset you, but you're wrong... https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/лучник
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Judeth wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Roxi wrote: »
    much more interesting than your snot which you call "constructive feedback".
    Вы хотите комментировать русский язык, но обижаться на русский шутки? Окей. Русская этимология переводится лучник как «bower» и «луч» означает «beam». Это не то же самое, что на английском. Это слово было создано до появления арбалета.

    He wasn't offended by anything.

    No, they were clearly offended by the meme I sent.
    No they weren't.

    There was nothing in their post to suggest offense.

    The fact that you claim to have seen it kind of says you posted that picture in an attempt to cause some sort of offense.
    I don’t know how you can read them say “much more interesting than your snot which you call "constructive feedback"” and not understand that as them being offended.
    Simple.

    People can think a meme is interesting, and think that "constructive feedback" is not, and not be offended.

    Calling something "snot" is about as far from being offended as it is possible to be. It is comical, at best, not an indicator of being offended.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I am happy with this change and I hope they remove other stuff like parlor games, marriage, monster coin etc from the Launch build - and add them in future expansions

    They need to launch a core viable product, and improve the game from there.
    img]
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Judeth wrote: »

    Dude, I don’t know why you’re so angry and acting so aggressively towards people with different opinions than you.

    Just don't engage with that guy, everyone around here knows he's just a dickhead with anger management issues
    img]
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  • JudethJudeth Member, Alpha Two
    Roxi wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Вы хотите комментировать русский язык, но обижаться на русский шутки? Окей. Русская этимология переводится лучник как «bower» и «луч» означает «beam». Это не то же самое, что на английском. Это слово было создано до появления арбалета.

    I didn't mean to upset you, but you're wrong... https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/лучник

    Вы русский?

    You’re trying to compare the Russian language with English, when they are completely different. How does this wiki disprove what I said about this word being created prior to the invention of the crossbow? Yes you’re right лучник is derived from the word лук, I never disagreed. I simply stated that the authentic translation would be “bower”, because that is how the word is made, and this word obviously existed before the invention of crossbows so its clear that when they invented bows they came up with the word “bower”. You’re trying to roughly translate it. So i’m not wrong, your link even points out its history and being a луконосный (воин). Not only were bows invented before the crossbow (oh look, the word crossbow comes from the word bow, its interesting) bows were more accessible.

    I simply found your little comment about the word quaint and amusing. This topic really has nothing to do with the forum conversation though so let’s call a truce and end it there.
  • JudethJudeth Member, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    I am happy with this change and I hope they remove other stuff like parlor games, marriage, monster coin etc from the Launch build - and add them in future expansions

    They need to launch a core viable product, and improve the game from there.
    Liniker wrote: »
    Just don't engage with that guy, everyone around here knows he's just a dickhead with anger management issues

    Fair points. I agree, I don’t think i’d miss parlor games or the monster coins, also I’m not a fan of the family teleport system so i’d be okay if they dismissed that.

    And yeah you’re right, I need to stop responding to some people. I usually try to be negotiable, but when people respond rudely I can get a bit argumentative, i’m just feeding the negativity at this point though.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »

    Dude, I don’t know why you’re so angry and acting so aggressively towards people with different opinions than you.

    Just don't engage with that guy, everyone around here knows he's just a dickhead with anger management issues

    happy to take on that first title (not sure if Intrepid would let the comment stand though...). The second though, nope.

    Forums are text. You can't really ascertain anger from text unless someone specifically says they are angry.

    if you are reading my posts as being angry, I can only assume you are projecting.
  • JudethJudeth Member, Alpha Two
    Goalid wrote: »
    Judeth wrote: »
    Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?

    Considering that crossbows were a stretch goal, people paid to have them implemented. Dropping them from the game implies a disregard for other promised features.

    This is incorrect. It was a stretch goal for Intrepid, not a Kickstarter stretch goal.
    daveywavey wrote: »

    This may help you:
    Stretch-Goal.png

    Thanks guys for pointing this out. I was going off of the quote from Steven and made an incorrect inference. Appreciate yall
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »

    if you are reading my posts as being angry, I can only assume you are projecting.

    It's just that this post originally started as a call to riot. 😅
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • LethalityLethality Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2023
    There's really no issue with this... it's a game in development... certain decisions are made or sometimes unmade along the way. Maybe out of some necessity, maybe out of creative direction, maybe out of something else.

    Steven has always tried to at least preach against scope creep, so sticking to a decision that was made, in this case some time ago, is admirable.

    The game loses nothing, especially at launch, by not having these... and who says they can't be part of an expansion down the road?

    But as you say, it's not just about these weapons... and with that in mind... also no. I don't think it means anything at all, certainly not doom, for the future... they're trying to stick to their plan as best they can, and we as backers cannot know every single minor move or change they make during the process.
    World Class Indoorsman
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Except more things to be scrabbed by the way, this is why consumers can't handle open development. You are right if one thing can be removed others can as well to be honest. That is just the nature of things, some things removed, some things added, and things changed.

    Because you see something in alpha 1+2 or talked about, doesn't mean it will be there on release.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    I've only played a game that required particular weapons to use class abilities (so pretty much what Ashes is gonna be), so I got a question. Are there mmos (or even rpgs) where rogues don't use daggers and instead use smth else? I don't think I've even heard of them using short swords or anything like that, but maybe I just missed the game that did that.

    Usual answer.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    happy to take on that first title (not sure if Intrepid would let the comment stand though...). The second though, nope.

    Forums are text. You can't really ascertain anger from text unless someone specifically says they are angry.

    if you are reading my posts as being angry, I can only assume you are projecting.

    I was not talking about you @Noaani you are chill :D I was talking about george black and how aggressive he is in his responses especially to new people
    img]
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  • FreemetaFreemeta Member
    edited March 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    I've only played a game that required particular weapons to use class abilities (so pretty much what Ashes is gonna be), so I got a question. Are there mmos (or even rpgs) where rogues don't use daggers and instead use smth else? I don't think I've even heard of them using short swords or anything like that, but maybe I just missed the game that did that.

    DDonline, rogue can specialize into mechanic, figthing with crossbow, throwing flask, alchemical trap,bomb:
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements

    so i'm really sad about this removal, i love unique weapon and inovative gameplay customization.
    i hope it's not like Wow unpruning bs and in the end you are linked to 1 or 2 weapons.
    sorry for my bad english, my native langage is french.
    AoC class wish: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/422108#Comment_422108
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Usual answer.
    Not a single day passes when I don't feel a bit sad about not having played both EQ2 and FF11 :D
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2023
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    happy to take on that first title (not sure if Intrepid would let the comment stand though...). The second though, nope.

    Forums are text. You can't really ascertain anger from text unless someone specifically says they are angry.

    if you are reading my posts as being angry, I can only assume you are projecting.

    I was not talking about you @Noaani you are chill :D I was talking about george black and how aggressive he is in his responses especially to new people

    Ah, my mistake.

    To be fair, I read his posts with an angry voice.
  • edited March 2023
    Freemeta wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I've only played a game that required particular weapons to use class abilities (so pretty much what Ashes is gonna be), so I got a question. Are there mmos (or even rpgs) where rogues don't use daggers and instead use smth else? I don't think I've even heard of them using short swords or anything like that, but maybe I just missed the game that did that.

    DDonline, rogue can specialize into mechanic, figthing with crossbow, throwing flask, alchemical trap,bomb:
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements

    so i'm really sad about this removal, i love unique weapon and inovative gameplay customization.
    i hope it's not like Wow unpruning bs and in the end you are linked to 1 or 2 weapons.

    Everquest as well, Rogue's generally use a dagger (some rapiers) mainhand as they are the only weapons granted backstab bonuses, but offhand they can use any 1 hand weapon outside of monk type weaps, maces axes swords etc.

    I have tried several times to find my old DDO login info, lol that game was underated with the exception of the character creator.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Usual answer.
    Not a single day passes when I don't feel a bit sad about not having played both EQ2 and FF11 :D

    Both are still going lol, nothing stopping you.

  • sometimes i fear they are just working on a technical showcase hoping to be bought by a big company. :D
    sorry for my bad english, my native langage is french.
    AoC class wish: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/422108#Comment_422108
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I heard that on reddit too...
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Both are still going lol, nothing stopping you.
    It's not the same. And I definitely don't want to overload my mind with info about 2 huuuuge mmos rn. I'll play TL if it's available in my region, but considering how much they took from L2, I'd imagine that it won't be that much learning. But outside of that I want to just keep Ashes on my mind for now.
  • Removing 2 reached stretch goal weapons is definitely an L for Intrepid in varying levels for different people, diminishing its image and their trust.
    Thankfully those 2 are not even close to being any of AoCs main attractive features and i certainly wouldn't mind more side/less relevant things being pushed to future updates or straight up being removed from the early build.
    Judeth wrote: »
    Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?

    This one gives off an awful slippery slope fallacy scent... But who knows, many MMORPGs have things scrapped during their developments, considering Ashes open development it might not differ from others in this regard.

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Judeth wrote: »
    uyju4ndkisrv.png
    Recently we’ve gotten news that crossbows and potion launchers will no longer be included in the game. This is a major disappointment to the community… Not only because there are those who were hoping to use these weapons, but because this decision could be foreshadowing the future of Ashes.

    Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?

    Considering that crossbows were a stretch goal, people paid to have them implemented. Dropping them from the game implies a disregard for other promised features.

    It also implies that Ashes combat/class systems will not be as multiplex and flexible as many of us hope it will be. They’ve chosen to exclude these weapons because of extra animation and vfx work, and most likely because they also don’t want to worry about adding additional skills that support these weapons. This suggests that there will only be a set amount of skills that come with your class, and players will not be able to build their character with unique skill combinations that specialize with their weapon choice and enchants/buffs. This suggests a very two-dimensional system, which is a major disappointment… Not only because it limits player choice, but it limits the heights that can be reached in the game. A two-dimensional combat system goes in tandem with a two-dimensional craft system and so forth.

    A fellow member in my guild suggested a good idea: Weapons with a more complex design (crossbows/potion launchers) could be unlocked in higher level scientific nodes. Ideas such as this are not feasible if ideas are cut because it would be “too much work”. Dark and Darker is able to implement crossbows with a slow reload time. This game is much clunkier and lower budget that I hope ashes will be, but its still able to create an interesting combat experience with these weapons.

    It is within reason that players are expecting a game that redefines the mold and breaks the wheel of boring mmorpgs. We have been forced to live with the dream of a game that actually puts the rpg in mmo, a game where you can live your fantasy life. We’ve had to live with thoughts of, “Well this could be better if only it had xyz.” As the target demographic of these products we need to demand better, for the sake of the future of mmorpgs. We need to stop accepting excuses and being overly understanding. This is a product you are paying for.

    It is also inexcusable that we were informed of this change in a discord post from Steven. The “relatable developer” marketing is beginning to look unprofessional. This includes the tank showcase, where Steven’s lack of skill made it hard to reliably judge the tank role being showcased. People seem to forget that Steven Sharif has a history of multi level marketing and is here to sell a product. Being a relatable gamer here to save the mmo genre is a great marketing ploy.
    It’s clear that from the amount of money invested in what they’ve shown us, that Ashes is not a scam. Though in the end it is a product and we are the consumers of that product. I’m not at all against them making money, but I am against low quality goods. You get to choose what food you put into your mouth. I’d sooner pay $300 for a 100% linen ethically/sustainably made dress, than I would pay $5 for a dress off of Shein. That’s to say its better to pay for a high quality product.

    I encourage all of my fellow community members to voice their opinions on developer decisions, and to demand a high quality product. It is better to make demands that are “unreasonable” than to sit and accept shortcuts. We have a great opportunity, developers seem to actually read and listen to us, and we get to help shape a game that could be the future of MMORPGs.

    This isn’t just about crossbows, its about the future of gaming.

    Cheers friends

    are you a lawyer?
  • GalvyrGalvyr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2023
    You don't have to be a lawyer in order to question certain business decisions by a business. Does one have to be a politican in order to question a politican. You have to be able to call out the bad as well as praise the good. For instance, the Tank stream was bad, but the UI stream was amazing.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Galvyr wrote: »
    You don't have to be a lawyer in order to question certain business decisions by a business. Does one have to be a politican in order to question a politican. You have to be able to call out the bad as well as praise the good. For instance, the Tank stream was bad, but the UI stream was amazing.

    You need to realize things being cut in development is normal. Because im sure you don't want to hear they will prob add crossbows after launch at a random undisclosed time based on the game and launch and their plana nd long term road map they have most likely not started much on that.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Intrepid makes the map bigger to make the game actually work and be fun... Scope Creep!!!!!

    Intrepid makes a tiny change to help move things along which has a minimal impact on anything... they have given up and are ruining the game!

    The sense of entitlement from the community is getting out of hand imo.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think I didn't actually do what the thread asked and voice a full opinion, so here goes.

    This sucks and is a bad look, to me.

    I can empathize with the people it affects because of their class fantasy, and while I don't share it explicitly, I do like that weapon and the things some games do with it.

    The reason given for the change seems really suspicious to me, and has tipped my group much closer to 'sooo... what's your refund policy again?' territory.

    We want to care about this game still, but certain things are 'making it difficult'. That's fine, not every game is for everyone and changes are part of development. Some changes will lose some people. Crossbows alone will not lose us, but the implication of the reason Steven gave for their removal sounds like it may lead to a game we won't end up playing.

    For whatever that's worth.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
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