I am trying to understand why the healer role is the one that is supposed to purely heal with a non-existant dps kit viable in PvP.
Are tanks' jobs in PvP to be meat shields and press tank buttons when fighting against other players? Do they also lack many viable damage options in PvE and are left with an abundance of tank buttons that they prioritize in PvP
That is how the oldschool games definitely did it.
And then, newer games tried to 'fix it' using a simple 'give them more DPS and control options' (which depending on your biases is either the right way or the very wrong way).
So idk about L2, but yes, overall, this is one of the main reasons people complain about Tanks in old games. Their abilities are not designed well enough to be good in both PvP and PvE. Part of this is unavoidable. Part of it is not. Some games solve it, some don't.
The Tank Showcase for Ashes also actually appears that it will be like this, if you only look at exactly the tools shown, and people have been complaining about it already too. I support those people just as I (technically) support your viewpoint.
How did they agro players in PvP? Point to click cc or ability they work towards? How did it get applied to their targets in PvE?
L2 is a tab game with automatic basic attacks. Any mage class only uses abilities to do anything, so their basic attacks are completely useless. When a tank agroes a player, that player's tab target switches to the tank and make the character attempt an autoattack on the tank. The aggro acts like a debuff, that hangs on the victim for several seconds, periodically retargeting the victim's tab to the tank and attempting an autoattack.
If the victim doesn't notice this in time (happened quite often in frantic fights), they might use their abilities on the tank instead of their intended target, so the tank does their main job of "don't let the others get hit". And against any mage classes it also disrupts their positioning, which is a very valuable thing, especially against healers.
In pve it's literally just an aggro that generates hate.
If I have to transform it into something which resembles pure healer gameplay, pure tanking would be pressing buttons related to aggro with no attacks attached to them. These will be separated from your few DPS options viable in PvE only. Your PvP would be something like standing there generating aggro with your abilities with some self-buffing for increased defenses. No need for any basic attacks. Healers do not heal with basic attacks. Why would you expect a pure tank to generate aggro with basic attacks? Dealing damage is what the DPS role for.
Maybe I explained it in a bad way? Tank wouldn't even need to do anything but to just aggro. Their autoattacks would do so little dmg that they were useless, unless the tank was boosted out of their mind in terms of gear (though even then they'd only be at a lvl of a mid-high dpser).
But your abilities that generate aggro were attacks, weren't they? So why should a healer's design be torn between Heal/DPS instead of DPS contributing to Heals?
It depends, but in a lot of games, no, this isn't true. The Aggro generation abilities are not actual attacks in any way, you just press an ability and either have more aggro or take damage for the person who does have Aggro and don't need to attack at all.
Conviction is the method you desire. Yiu might not like conviction but that was the purpose. I've asked for conviction to be expanded, with more methods of generating conviction too.
But your abilities that generate aggro were attacks, weren't they? So why should a healer's design be torn between Heal/DPS? Why shouldn't they be designed like the tanks where DPS is contributing to their role's responsibility?
I know, but what I would expect is dps generating resources meant for heals.
And that is the difference between newer and older games that we're talking about. Older games just had roles. And you'd only do that role, but you'd do it in a great way. Newer games just had dps, with some role-based flavoring. So while you think that we're suggestion regression, we're in fact suggesting to go back to a deeper design space, instead of "everyone's a dps, but you sometimes do smth else".
Judgement is a shit skill. I told you I asked for a lance to replace the skill. A dps/heal move should do dps and heal in the same click, at the same time. Not be gated behind stupid mechanics.
You had no attacks that generate aggro? I don't believe you.
Any and all attacks "generate aggro", purely because that's how aggro works (heals did too iirc, but that is also the same as it works in pretty much all games).
The only "aggroing" attack ability came with a ton of way more useful effects on it, so people always used for the effects rather than the "aggro" of it.
I miiight be able to check the difference between the aggro values and judgement's one. Give me a few mins.
I know, but what I would expect is dps generating resources meant for heals.
And that is the difference between newer and older games that we're talking about. Older games just had roles. And you'd only do that role, but you'd do it in a great way. Newer games just had dps, with some role-based flavoring. So while you think that we're suggestion regression, we're in fact suggesting to go back to a deeper design space, instead of "everyone's a dps, but you sometimes do smth else".
You may need to clarify some specifics here, since to a player from that era, this really is outright not believable.
I don't know if you have any L2 examples, but FFXI has 'Earth Staff Paladin Tanking' for Boss Content.
An Earth Staff is a weak mage weapon and Paladins aren't great at Staff skill to begin with, it does have % Physical Damage Reduction though.
Such Paladins would rely on Trick Attack from Thieves to add to their Aggro along with all their other abilities, and definitely never even enter their attack stance. No Autoattack, no DPS, just stand there and control the mob.
I know, but what I would expect is dps generating resources meant for heals.
And that is the difference between newer and older games that we're talking about. Older games just had roles. And you'd only do that role, but you'd do it in a great way. Newer games just had dps, with some role-based flavoring. So while you think that we're suggestion regression, we're in fact suggesting to go back to a deeper design space, instead of "everyone's a dps, but you sometimes do smth else".
To my knowledge Tanks in AoC don't have to switch between tank stances to increase damage output/aggro generation so I don't see a reason for healers to have separate healing and damaging attacks that conflict with each other.
I don't know if you have any L2 examples, but FFXI has 'Earth Staff Paladin Tanking' for Boss Content.
An Earth Staff is a weak mage weapon and Paladins aren't great at Staff skill to begin with, it does have % Physical Damage Reduction though.
Such Paladins would rely on Trick Attack from Thieves to add to their Aggro along with all their other abilities, and definitely never even enter their attack stance. No Autoattack, no DPS, just stand there and control the mob.
You couldn't even put your shield on.
L2 wasn't quite that extreme, so tanks would just remain on their autoattacks simply to get any kind of damage in, though it was always absolutely negligible. You'd usually just use that agro ability and the judgement one in hopes of putting the debuffs onto the boss. Oh, there was the aoe agro ability too, so they'd use that as well.
I know, but what I would expect is dps generating resources meant for heals.
And that is the difference between newer and older games that we're talking about. Older games just had roles. And you'd only do that role, but you'd do it in a great way. Newer games just had dps, with some role-based flavoring. So while you think that we're suggestion regression, we're in fact suggesting to go back to a deeper design space, instead of "everyone's a dps, but you sometimes do smth else".
To my knowledge Tanks in AoC don't have to switch between tank stances to increase damage output/aggro generation so I don't see a reason for healers to have separate healing and damaging attacks that conflict with each other.
Did you read anywhere information about aggro generation on that ability?
No, sorry, I was responding to the 'damage output' part. I'm still having trouble adjusting to the 'FF14 mindset', so please continue to ignore me while I work on catching up to where you are.
EDIT: NiKr I leave this to you, I'm still too much in the wrong headspace for it (I really should have played that game but it's SOOO LAAAME for me).
Checked it. The values would be slightly different at higher lvls, but the ratio would most likely stay the same. The aggro ability generates 16k aggro, the judgement 9k. My normal attacks deal 500, so that would be the aggro I generate with them (this is against a mob, like, 15 lvls below mine btw). Under full buff I do ~2 attacks a second. The aggro cd is 5sec. Judgement's is 3s.
So against any equal lvl mob, my attacks would be barely generating any aggro, while the aggro ability would still keep its values. And while the judgement ability adds a bit of aggro as well, its debuff side is way more valuable. Oh, and its dmg is x3 of my attacks, so it's also shit when it comes to damage.
In other words, the tanking still consists of just "use the aggro ability and be a meatshield".
You had no attacks that generate aggro? I don't believe you.
Most early and mid 2000s MMO's had tank abilities that were either generate hate or deal damage. Tanks would generate some hate, then deal some damage, then generate some more hate.
Same with healers. For the most part, they had abilities that would heal, and different abilities that would do damage.
As I pointed out in another thread, in EQ2 specifically (a game I played at the very top end in for most of a decade), healers were expected to keep the group alive, stay on top of cleanses, buff the group, debuff the enemy, and also do an amount of DPS.
Each of the above tasks had it's own set of abilities associated with it. There was no worthwhile cross over.
And because there is no crossover it is not really well designed. Anybody can slap random buttons on a class and call it design.
I mean, this is just a bad take, even for you.
abilities having cross over effects is absolutely not a requirement of good class design. In fact, I have literally never seen anything I could call a good class design that leaned on this idea at all.
Good class design is where each ability in a class has a well defined use. Good content in a game is where all of those specific uses are called upon, and where players often need to work out which is the most pressing.
Your suggestion that a class without cross over effects in abilities is just a whole lot of buttons slapped together is taking the notion at play here to the extreme. The equivalent of me making that argument against your suggestion that abilities need cross over effects to be good design would be to state that anyone could just slap damage, healing and cleansing on one ability and call it good cross over.
Clearly, both your statement and my statement are incorrect. The difference is that I said mine knowing it was incorrect, you seem to believe yours.
But to help you understand what a crossover is look no further than Mage's showcase.
Look at the properties of Ball of Lighting: Creates a large ball of highly charged electricity that travels slowly forward, dealing rapid periodic lightning damage to enemies it overlaps with and applying an Electrified stack to targets with each hit.
Then look at Elemental Empowerment: Whenever you cast an elemental spell, your weapon attacks deal additional damage of that spell's element and apply a stack of the corresponding elemental status effects to targets hit. Casting a spell of a different element switches this effect to the new element
Different aspects of your kit work towards a special effect in sync that is unique to your class. This is design.
I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about. Not just no idea what you are wanting, but literally no idea as to what you are talking about.
If you go up just a few posts, I pointed out that the healer class in question, as well as most healers and tanks from early to mid 2000's MMO's, had abilities that had singular functions. Tanks had a pile of abilities that deal damage, and a different pile of abilities that generate threat. Healers have abilities that heal, and different abilities that deal damage, and different abilities that cleanse, and different abilities that buff and different abilities that debuff.
The point made was that there was no real cross over, that heals healed, damage abilities dealt damage etc.
You then claimed that was bad design.
Then when called out on how that was not bad design, you posted the above as proof of what you are talking about, that you seem to consider good design.
The problem is, the above two spells are both damage dealing.
As such, in the context of the discussion we are having, where heals heal, damaging attacks deal damage, taunts taunt etc, and how there was no cross over, the above two abilities both fit in to damage dealing spells that deal damage.
In the context of the discussion, the above two spells contain no cross over - not as we were discussing cross over in the discussion we were having.
Sure, there is some interplay between the abilities above, but both just deal damage. If these two spells were on a tank or healer from EQ2, the statement that there is not much cross over in terms of heals, damage, taunt etc would still hold true, as again, these abilities are just damage dealing.
I don't know, perhaps you just forgot the context of what we were talking about - but the above abilities do not have any cross over in the manner we were discussing it.
If you want to talk about abilities that have interplay between each other, then EQ2 had more of that than any other game I have ever played (much of that interaction was not just between abilities, but between abilities of different classes)- and it managed to do that without bullshit mechanics like "Electrified Stack" - which is a childs version of ability interplay.
Comments
That is how the oldschool games definitely did it.
And then, newer games tried to 'fix it' using a simple 'give them more DPS and control options' (which depending on your biases is either the right way or the very wrong way).
So idk about L2, but yes, overall, this is one of the main reasons people complain about Tanks in old games. Their abilities are not designed well enough to be good in both PvP and PvE. Part of this is unavoidable. Part of it is not. Some games solve it, some don't.
The Tank Showcase for Ashes also actually appears that it will be like this, if you only look at exactly the tools shown, and people have been complaining about it already too. I support those people just as I (technically) support your viewpoint.
If the victim doesn't notice this in time (happened quite often in frantic fights), they might use their abilities on the tank instead of their intended target, so the tank does their main job of "don't let the others get hit". And against any mage classes it also disrupts their positioning, which is a very valuable thing, especially against healers.
In pve it's literally just an aggro that generates hate.
It depends, but in a lot of games, no, this isn't true. The Aggro generation abilities are not actual attacks in any way, you just press an ability and either have more aggro or take damage for the person who does have Aggro and don't need to attack at all.
The only "aggroing" attack ability came with a ton of way more useful effects on it, so people always used for the effects rather than the "aggro" of it.
I miiight be able to check the difference between the aggro values and judgement's one. Give me a few mins.
You may need to clarify some specifics here, since to a player from that era, this really is outright not believable.
I don't know if you have any L2 examples, but FFXI has 'Earth Staff Paladin Tanking' for Boss Content.
An Earth Staff is a weak mage weapon and Paladins aren't great at Staff skill to begin with, it does have % Physical Damage Reduction though.
Such Paladins would rely on Trick Attack from Thieves to add to their Aggro along with all their other abilities, and definitely never even enter their attack stance. No Autoattack, no DPS, just stand there and control the mob.
You couldn't even put your shield on.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Grit
In some design places L2 was really really simple
No, sorry, I was responding to the 'damage output' part. I'm still having trouble adjusting to the 'FF14 mindset', so please continue to ignore me while I work on catching up to where you are.
EDIT: NiKr I leave this to you, I'm still too much in the wrong headspace for it (I really should have played that game but it's SOOO LAAAME for me).
So against any equal lvl mob, my attacks would be barely generating any aggro, while the aggro ability would still keep its values. And while the judgement ability adds a bit of aggro as well, its debuff side is way more valuable. Oh, and its dmg is x3 of my attacks, so it's also shit when it comes to damage.
In other words, the tanking still consists of just "use the aggro ability and be a meatshield".
Same with healers. For the most part, they had abilities that would heal, and different abilities that would do damage.
As I pointed out in another thread, in EQ2 specifically (a game I played at the very top end in for most of a decade), healers were expected to keep the group alive, stay on top of cleanses, buff the group, debuff the enemy, and also do an amount of DPS.
Each of the above tasks had it's own set of abilities associated with it. There was no worthwhile cross over.
I mean, this is just a bad take, even for you.
abilities having cross over effects is absolutely not a requirement of good class design. In fact, I have literally never seen anything I could call a good class design that leaned on this idea at all.
Good class design is where each ability in a class has a well defined use. Good content in a game is where all of those specific uses are called upon, and where players often need to work out which is the most pressing.
Your suggestion that a class without cross over effects in abilities is just a whole lot of buttons slapped together is taking the notion at play here to the extreme. The equivalent of me making that argument against your suggestion that abilities need cross over effects to be good design would be to state that anyone could just slap damage, healing and cleansing on one ability and call it good cross over.
Clearly, both your statement and my statement are incorrect. The difference is that I said mine knowing it was incorrect, you seem to believe yours.
I'm starting to think you have no idea what you are talking about. Not just no idea what you are wanting, but literally no idea as to what you are talking about.
If you go up just a few posts, I pointed out that the healer class in question, as well as most healers and tanks from early to mid 2000's MMO's, had abilities that had singular functions. Tanks had a pile of abilities that deal damage, and a different pile of abilities that generate threat. Healers have abilities that heal, and different abilities that deal damage, and different abilities that cleanse, and different abilities that buff and different abilities that debuff.
The point made was that there was no real cross over, that heals healed, damage abilities dealt damage etc.
You then claimed that was bad design.
Then when called out on how that was not bad design, you posted the above as proof of what you are talking about, that you seem to consider good design.
The problem is, the above two spells are both damage dealing.
As such, in the context of the discussion we are having, where heals heal, damaging attacks deal damage, taunts taunt etc, and how there was no cross over, the above two abilities both fit in to damage dealing spells that deal damage.
In the context of the discussion, the above two spells contain no cross over - not as we were discussing cross over in the discussion we were having.
Sure, there is some interplay between the abilities above, but both just deal damage. If these two spells were on a tank or healer from EQ2, the statement that there is not much cross over in terms of heals, damage, taunt etc would still hold true, as again, these abilities are just damage dealing.
I don't know, perhaps you just forgot the context of what we were talking about - but the above abilities do not have any cross over in the manner we were discussing it.
If you want to talk about abilities that have interplay between each other, then EQ2 had more of that than any other game I have ever played (much of that interaction was not just between abilities, but between abilities of different classes)- and it managed to do that without bullshit mechanics like "Electrified Stack" - which is a childs version of ability interplay.