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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Pessimistic about the mage
Shouri
Member
At yesterday's mage discussion on discord, I ended up leaving disgusted after hearing that 3 of the 5 users who joined the call to talk with the devs, joined with the sole purpose of making sure that the mage (a class they will never use) isn't "too strong". Those same users were saying in the text channel stuff like "sigma players don't play mage", or when the same users joined the call in the second discussion point went "yeah we've got the power!".
I honestly hope that devs don't listen too much what the community has to say over the FEW information we still have. We don't know many relevant information like cooldown times, what ability ranks will improve for the abilities revealed, mana costs for optimal rotations and in different situations (pvp, bosses etc.), what other classes will be able to do (mage is the only class besides cleric with more revealed abilities) and more.
I will play all classes except for rogue (probably) on AoC, and mage is a class I've tons of experience with in other MMORPG (one of my main classes together with Paladins, Druids or Knights), and mage is BY FAR the class who receives the most hate in every game. Players pretend that mages have to "play smart" to perform good, but at the same they play oonga boonga classes which often deal more damage and don't get punished by mistakes as mages do.
And now I wanted to counterargue some of the discussed points I've read from a numerous amount of players:
- "Casting while walking is unnatural!": B**** please, magic is unnatural in essence. This is a fantasy game, and each game shape their world's normality. Is it "normal" for you being able to swing your sword while running and cleaving all the enemies in front of you like melee classes can do? In a "normal" world I can ensure you it's not. From what I watched mage walking speed while casting is highly reduced. In PvP that won't let you escape from being destroyed at melee range. In fact, a big concern for me is that I have only seen 1 non casted ability, Cone of Cold. All other abilities are casted. Whenever a mage have to move in PvE their dps drops a lot, while melees (and other classes like ranged) can just avoid areas or reposition and their rotation is not compromissed.
- "Mana managament is a must for mage". I agree, but only for mage? Mages and healers are always the ones whose mana depletes sooner. So, at the same time you want that mages don't deal more damage than other classes, but their mana drops much faster than other dps? Bit unfair innit? Running out of mana in mid of a boss fight means death (or raid leaders picking other dps classes who will perform well during all the fight unlike mages). Same for massive PvP fights like sieges. If a mage runs of out of mana and needs to back down to restore while other classes can stay infinitely... wonder how many people will decide to use mage.
- About the CC debate: All mages can do is snare with their frost spells, and all 3 of them are casted. In order to freeze they need 5 status stacks, and that takes all 3 of those abilities to achieve (or 2 plus 1 weapon attack).
About slumber, that's the weakest form of hard CC that exists. 1 attack and the enemy is awake. And it's casted, so while is being casted, it can be interrumpted, potentially enemies can escape from it with dashes, or just deal a bunch of damage at melee range while it's being casted (just to wake up with 1 attack). It will be completely useless in massive PvP fights because enemies affected by it will inmedietly be awake. The only scenario where I find it potentially problematic is in 2v2 and 3v3 coordinated PvP. If we compare it to ranger's air strike, Slumber is casted, AS is not; Slumber doesn't deal damage, AS does; AS repositions yourself, slumber doesn't; AS rootss enemies in place so they can't chase you, Slumber vanishes as soon as you attack them... but nobody is talking about AS and everybody freaks out about Slumber.
All what mages have is damage. They always have lower hp pool, armor, mobility and often even CC... and their damage is not even superior to other classes in most MMORPG (so other classes don't get outsinhed in the dpsmeters I guess...) but at the same time that makes mages a non viable class for PvP, compared to more all round classes who can heal, who are more bulky, who have better mobility... and the same damage (if not more)
It's hard to balance a game with many different type of fights, and I'm not sure if all classes should perform equally in all situations... but anyway, I trust that the tools the game offers (double archetype, augments, being able to modify your ability kits etc.) will let all classes be fun to play and "viable" / adaptable for different scenarios.
Just, again, don't listen to what people who is missing tons of information have to say about a class they will never use.
I honestly hope that devs don't listen too much what the community has to say over the FEW information we still have. We don't know many relevant information like cooldown times, what ability ranks will improve for the abilities revealed, mana costs for optimal rotations and in different situations (pvp, bosses etc.), what other classes will be able to do (mage is the only class besides cleric with more revealed abilities) and more.
I will play all classes except for rogue (probably) on AoC, and mage is a class I've tons of experience with in other MMORPG (one of my main classes together with Paladins, Druids or Knights), and mage is BY FAR the class who receives the most hate in every game. Players pretend that mages have to "play smart" to perform good, but at the same they play oonga boonga classes which often deal more damage and don't get punished by mistakes as mages do.
And now I wanted to counterargue some of the discussed points I've read from a numerous amount of players:
- "Casting while walking is unnatural!": B**** please, magic is unnatural in essence. This is a fantasy game, and each game shape their world's normality. Is it "normal" for you being able to swing your sword while running and cleaving all the enemies in front of you like melee classes can do? In a "normal" world I can ensure you it's not. From what I watched mage walking speed while casting is highly reduced. In PvP that won't let you escape from being destroyed at melee range. In fact, a big concern for me is that I have only seen 1 non casted ability, Cone of Cold. All other abilities are casted. Whenever a mage have to move in PvE their dps drops a lot, while melees (and other classes like ranged) can just avoid areas or reposition and their rotation is not compromissed.
- "Mana managament is a must for mage". I agree, but only for mage? Mages and healers are always the ones whose mana depletes sooner. So, at the same time you want that mages don't deal more damage than other classes, but their mana drops much faster than other dps? Bit unfair innit? Running out of mana in mid of a boss fight means death (or raid leaders picking other dps classes who will perform well during all the fight unlike mages). Same for massive PvP fights like sieges. If a mage runs of out of mana and needs to back down to restore while other classes can stay infinitely... wonder how many people will decide to use mage.
- About the CC debate: All mages can do is snare with their frost spells, and all 3 of them are casted. In order to freeze they need 5 status stacks, and that takes all 3 of those abilities to achieve (or 2 plus 1 weapon attack).
About slumber, that's the weakest form of hard CC that exists. 1 attack and the enemy is awake. And it's casted, so while is being casted, it can be interrumpted, potentially enemies can escape from it with dashes, or just deal a bunch of damage at melee range while it's being casted (just to wake up with 1 attack). It will be completely useless in massive PvP fights because enemies affected by it will inmedietly be awake. The only scenario where I find it potentially problematic is in 2v2 and 3v3 coordinated PvP. If we compare it to ranger's air strike, Slumber is casted, AS is not; Slumber doesn't deal damage, AS does; AS repositions yourself, slumber doesn't; AS rootss enemies in place so they can't chase you, Slumber vanishes as soon as you attack them... but nobody is talking about AS and everybody freaks out about Slumber.
All what mages have is damage. They always have lower hp pool, armor, mobility and often even CC... and their damage is not even superior to other classes in most MMORPG (so other classes don't get outsinhed in the dpsmeters I guess...) but at the same time that makes mages a non viable class for PvP, compared to more all round classes who can heal, who are more bulky, who have better mobility... and the same damage (if not more)
It's hard to balance a game with many different type of fights, and I'm not sure if all classes should perform equally in all situations... but anyway, I trust that the tools the game offers (double archetype, augments, being able to modify your ability kits etc.) will let all classes be fun to play and "viable" / adaptable for different scenarios.
Just, again, don't listen to what people who is missing tons of information have to say about a class they will never use.
4
Comments
Most games I've tested over the years mitigate this by having "secret" places devs can discuss things with players who aren't members of the general public. Hopefully AoC will have something similar with a wide variety of playstyles, skill levels, goals, etc.
I'd assume Intrepid realize that those who give feedback during those discussions are only the insanely invested ones who have very particular views on things, that quite often differ from the general public's opinion.
Now, that being said, I do agree that mages are usually seen as hella OP in quite a lot of mmos, so it's kinda understandable why people would start yelling "don't make them OP" as soon as they get the chance. It's just about balance and good design. I think RPS balancing will help make mages not as OP as they might've been in other games.
Three out of five? Five what? People on the 'stage'? Doesn't Intrepid choose some sub-number of those people that join the Office Hours as a representational sample or something?
I don't really know because I don't join these, but if 3 of 5 were saying such things, and you were there and NiKr too, then...
Anyways lmk if I need to go read in more detail about how Discord Stage and these sessions work.
And Intrepid pick the ones who "raise their hand" out of the crowd. Back in the dungeon discussion it was pretty much the same people for all rounds and I'd almost bet that it was the same people in this discussion too, just cause I'm sure that people who were willing to talk previously would be way more likely to talk in the future.
Hm, ok, I'm familiar enough with this kind of thing, but I suppose without testing metrics it's not as if they can do more than this.
So it is.
3 out of 5 players who were invited to talk and discuss the topics. We could raise the hand to show interest in participating in the voice call. I was in a situation where I couldn't participate even if I wanted to, and I had to leave early (even though I ended up leaving sooner due to what I mentioned), so I missed of the talk... but I can imagine how things went from what I listened in the first 2 topics.
Hopefully Intrepid is aware of those people's intentions. I liked Roshen's attitude, and seemed aware (he even reconducted the conversation to the main topics when the members deviated it to smth else)
Well, I'd expect that 3 out of 5 players on average would prefer to 'make sure' that Mage was not OP, so it doesn't seem particularly 'off' to me or 'not representative'. So I'm not sure I understand the concern? I obviously didn't hear everything you heard, but I think I disagree with most of your points in your original post, actually.
So from a design perspective I guess I'd have been in the 3 out of the five, therefore I'm not sure if you should care about my opinion here anyway.
In any case, I feel like Intrepid is aware enough of my intentions, as you wish, so no concerns there.
I always feel that people should do their best to explain their positions with somewhat less emotional appeals (not less emotions, less 'attempts to poke at the emotions of others') in these situations, but 1. that's my opinion and 2. not everyone can.
I think Intrepid knows #2, so they'll do whatever is within their ability to filter out the technically useful parts.
Hey now, I'm advocating for over the top spectacle mageness.
That’s fine for a concern when your developers have openly admitted to mage being a favorite.
But range vs melee camps are some of the oldest in the genre.
The OP's points don't seem to refer to anything 'OP' actually, they're points that people for various reasons 'have issues with in Mage design' whether they are 'OP' or not.
So while people often use that word as a catch-all, it is just an easy term to use instead of full explanations of why they hate the design type.
"Mobile mages with low-skill mana management and good CC options" is a fairly disliked design type in my circles when referring to group PvP games, particularly those with the implication of Ashes' intentions. I think I could also easily be swayed into agreeing with someone who says 'that type of Mage will just be OP in Ashes', even if it's only because I'd feel like I knew what they were 'really complaining about'.
It's fine to fixate on a single class but it should be noted these classes equate to 8 classes plus the mage secondaries which will blur the lines further.
Well, if it matters, I'm referring to 'moving while casting', not 'Blink'.
And having CC on a Tank is different. Usually very different.
"When there are 8 mage classes they will all counter each other." - I feel like my reaction to this might be unfair because it sounds like such relatively dumb reasoning.
Wouldn't that just lead to a game where everyone wants to play Mage Primary if the Mage WAS a little OP? That's how I experience this normally. So I don't really get what 'point' you're making.
Mage has to almost by default, as a primary, be 'uncomfortable' enough that 87% of the population doesn't see it as their number one choice.
Within that, it has to STILL be 'slightly uncomfortable' enough that 87% of those who choose it 'have a thing about it that they want to augment with something other than Mage again'.
If 95% of people weren't either ambivalent or 'disinterested' in Mage, I'd moreso consider it a bad thing. I'm not a believer in the idea of 'competitive game where everyone is able to easily enjoy every option', that's a strong indicator to me that it's BDO-lite. Just homogenous flows that you can easily adapt to.
So, for Intrepid, if the 'plan' is to somehow have Mages counter other Mages, I'm opposed, I guess?
I want my spells to have tactical consequences for both parties involved. If i cast a crowdcontrol spell, beeing stuck in place, for the cast time, is going to be an acceptable consequence if i net gain time if the spell hits. However if i cast just a damage spell i don't want to be penalized in a way that because of the casting time and range, the target is out of range in most scenarios.
The movement speed while casting in the showcase, is slow enough to prevent abuse, and fast enough to allowtactical placement. Although i do hope that certain types of spells have more or less penalties to movement speed while casting. (Eg, Air based spells you can move faster then earth based spells for example)
For balancing purposes, if you have two dps classes with equal gear, i want their mana pool, to represent a total damage pool potential, thats roughly equal to other dps. eg a fighter has 1000 mana, and can do about 100.000 damage with it a similar level mage has 2000 mana, and can do about 100.000 damage with it. Tge offset here is the type of damage, range of engagement, and ofcourse burst potential. The fighter might deplete its pool in 10 hits, while the mage needs to get 20 hits in, (but due to range and slows and stuns a balance can be found.
I want to have a rock paper scissors approach. A fighter defeats a ranged, a ranged defeats a spellcaster, and a spellcaster defeats a fighter.
This however is going to need continues (re)balancing.
Put it in the mage dev thread if you haven't already mate.
I hear your concerns and wanted to provide some clarity on this subject.
The conversations happening during Office Hours aren't fundamentally different than conversations that happen here on the forums, on Discord, or even on our social media platforms! When the community team collects feedback, it isn't with the intention of "design by committee."
Office Hours is an opportunity to join player discussions with the community team on topics the community team is actively collecting feedback on, similar to discussing your opinions and feedback with people on an official feedback thread
With that said, we'd love your feedback on the Mage Archetype shown during the April Development Update Livestream on the official thread, here (plus a couple of bonus questions!): https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55467/feedback-request-alpha-two-mage-updates-shown-in-the-april-livestream/p1
We also have a Dev Discussion on the Mage Archetype that we'd love your thoughts and opinions on here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55520/dev-discussion-51-let-s-discuss-the-mage/p1
You can always listen in the audience, and talking is not required (and only those who want to speak, and raise their hand to do so, are the ones who may be brought up to talk amongst each other!
After seeing it at work in so many games, seeing the absolute bullshit players (myself included) talk about in general discussion, contrasted with actual valuable discussion happening in these invite only areas, I cant but assume developers dont pay any attention to general discussion outside of gauging over all community opinion - to then introduce those questions in this invite only area to facilitate actual valuable discussion on the matter.
I have no expectation that any developer is paying too much attention to any discussion happening that is essentially open to all.
That relieves me a little bit, because as Neurath pointed, "The most vocal people get the classes nerfed", and that doesnt mean they're right (and doesn't even mean it's what the majority thinks). So knowing that those discussion won't be different from forum talks for Intrepid, and you guys decide what's best for each class without getting too contaminated from numerous ambiguous feedback... definitely restores my hopes.
Exactly. On the internet you can't tell what are the intentions behind someone's feedback, or if they are experimented in the genre, or if they have background in high level pvp / pve, or if they are versed on different classes and playstyles to know exactly what's good and what counters what...
So picking random players (idk if they are from a "top alliance") to listen for feedback is like flipping a coin. Maybe they just want their class buffed, or the class they hate the most nerfed.
Unfortunately even recent conversations on the forums have reminded me that I do not yet have the patience/control to be having design-related conversations with most people in real-time.
I feel like I'd not only be a negative toward getting useful feedback, but also outright disruptive to the goals and community Intrepid hopes to foster.
And I'm the one who talks here because I'm the most patient. Hopefully the Office Hours are achieving their goal, but I'm probably not a good fit for them. 'Overworking Moderators' is one of my many middle names.
😂😂😂 Understood, haha! Appreciate the honesty. You can always listen in and see how that goes, rather than participate 🤔💭 It's ok if it's just not for you, though
though I do think the orb should/could have opportunity to collapse/explode/dissipate. I feel that could be an interesting graphic for it. Maybe even pull some of the terrain with it depending on ambient environment.
For what it's worth, from *my* perspective (not that you @ me saying you'd love to see me join in), I dont have the time to put a block like that aside.
I have plenty of free time during the day, but it is broken up in to 10 or 15 minute pieces. I am almost never able to string together even half an hour of free time.
That is also why I don't participate on Discord. Attempting a discussion with someone when they aren't actually there is impossible on Discord.
On a forum though, it's kind of what they are built for. Someone can have their say, and then I can reply when I have the time.
To me (others may disagree), forums are the way for a company to facilitate discussion with their community in a way that is the most respectful of everyone's time.
idk the people who did raise their hands and talked seemed very experienced in playing against or as a mage so they knew what to say to make sure mage isnt op or too weak
Ofc no class should be overpowered, but the point is that most of the critics I've read make no sense at all. They don't play mages, so they don't know their struggles and needs. As someone who plays almost everything I know their strengths and flaws.
I highly doubt that office hours will be the same if the same people keep participating. A big amount of PvP players play fast classes like rogues and warriors, that's why they don't like mages
Because the mage's opponents would be exactly the people who'd know whether the mage is OP or not. If no matter what you do, you still can't beat a mage - the mage is OP. And if that applies to any class - the mage is insanely OP.